ooc:
 1- Even with a size +8 to break stuff, a DC35 still requires me to roll a 19 ; damaging the walls seems more efficient.

 2- Whether the Hag has a staff ready or not is a matter of interpretation... RAW I guess she does not. On the other hand it is part of what makes it a CR7 monster, and it appears both in the stats and the flavour text. I'd say we vote and roll a dice if it is a tie.
 My vote goes to Hag has a staff.

 3- Arkrim, you did not rule on what happens when you break the lower section of a wall ; does the upper section collapse or does it stay up in the air (assuming of course it is still attached to the side) ?
 The rules are vague on this, but I reckon all the squares that had a wall in them remain difficult terrain until someone sweeps the rumble away.

With no floating houses around to use, Thraxis orders his dinosaur to drop a tail on the winter hag.


T = Thraxis's Giant Ankylosaurus
G = Grunyar's Winter Hag
E = Edward's War Bull
A = Ankou's Stegosaurus

   ROUND: 1 (5 [-1])
POSITION: (A3,D6)
 ACTIONS: Move to (A3,D6) (move), Attack Grunyar (standard)


Giant Ankylosaurus,  HP 87/95   http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG...inosaur-ankylosaurus
AC: 23      TAC: 6     FFAC:  23

EFFECTS: Giant Template http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG...sterAdvancement.html (changes included above, not an actual effect but listed here to give a place for the link)
   GEAR: n/a
   USED ABILITIES: n/a

ROLLS:
07:21, Today: Thraxis rolled 26 using 1d20+9 with rolls of 17.  Refl Save (+2 cover).
07:45, Today: Thraxis rolled 30 using 4d6+15 with rolls of 3,5,6,1.  Tail damage on winter hag.

SUMMARY:  Shaking off the icy coldness, the Ankylosaurus rumbles forward and smashes the wicked witch.  She takes 30 damage (not counting the -10 for DR) and gets a DC 25 fortitude save versus a 1 round daze.

OOC:  I'll give you guys some time to knock down walls while I play with Grunyar.
When I rolled initiative, I forgot the -2 dex for being giant.  It had no effect on the order, so I just fixed it above.  I assume everyone (except maybe Edward) prefers that I not reroll.
I went through all the low wall effects under combat (found none), dungeons (found none) and environments where I found a couple: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html  Each terrain feature that 'counts as a low wall' effect cost 1-2 more squares of movement (except for hedge rows, which are low walls with thick bushes growing on top and filling entire squares) even fallen trees, which are explicitly listed as more than half the height of average medium creatures.  I took the higher penalty of 2 extra squares of movement cost per square moved.  Let me know if there's disagreement on this.
Also, on ankou's points:
1-I hadn't considered breaking things square by square - that's not too awful.
2-I'm willing to go along with the hag having her staff to avoid a dispute.
3-Ankou please don't call on Arkrim unless we have a dispute - we said we'd arbitrate for ourselves and he's already come in several times to help clear things up.  Mind modifying your previous post?  My vote is that if you destroy a lower section of wall, the top part collapses as well forming a patch of difficult terrain where the wall used to be.

(And by difficult terrain at collapsed walls, I mean just +1 square of movement penalty)

In reply to Ankou (msg # 19):

OOC: I have already answered that question. The next person to ask me a question I have already answered will be given a foul for each question that I have already answered. READ THE GM'S POSTS BEFORE YOU POST. NO EXCUSES!

OOC: Got a couple questions, where is your attack roll and did you take into account your squeezing and my cover at a minimum possibly imp cover?

My building still has a roof so that is not just a "low wall" and part of you is above the +2 wall which puts the top of your back in +5 at minimum and the areana cieling is at the top of +4.

I do wonder if I can go so far as saying I have imp cover, we have a 20ft cube trying to swing threw a 5x10 opening.  In proportion thats a 1.25x2.5 opening for medium creature.

This message was last edited by the player at 13:55, Mon 26 Oct 2015.

Bigger than medium creatures choose any square they occupy to make their attacks from, for the purposes of cover.  http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cover  I choose ground level, straight outside the door, so you have no cover.
Regarding squeezing, that is why there were difficult terrain penalties.  The walls cause the Ankylosaurus to miss at most 3 of his 64 squares.  It's less than having a little underbrush in the square of a medium creature.  If the others agree that it causes squeezing, I'm willing to roll with it, but even at -4 for squeezing (and even at -4 and giving you cover on top of it) the attack still hits.

EDIT: Ankou: he said above that the ceilings are only 1 inch thick, so huge and gargantuan creatures automatically destroy the roofs above/below them just by being there.

ROLLS (ALL Rolls from previous turn reposted for continuity):
07:21, Today: Thraxis rolled 26 using 1d20+9 with rolls of 17.  Refl Save (+2 cover).
07:43, Today: Thraxis rolled 30 using 1d20+14 with rolls of 16.  Tail attack at Winter Hag.
07:45, Today: Thraxis rolled 30 using 4d6+15 with rolls of 3,5,6,1.  Tail damage on winter hag.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:26, Mon 26 Oct 2015.

OOC: I was thinking about melee attacks, its any square forgot creatures with reach go off the range attack rules.

As for the Squeezing there is nothing that says how many spaces just that a spot needs to be less than you take up.

quote:

Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

The reason this is important is that I will ask you to reroll the attack roll or the reflex save at the correct modifiers your choice but both are wrong your reflex modifier is +6 (+7 base -1 dex, which you stated in your post so you obviously knew about it)  +2 from cover is only a +8 and as the areana rules state I may ask for a reroll.  I only ask for a reroll on 1 of the two.

RE: Reflex the save - Crap.  I had the dinosaur page and the winter hag page open when I rolled my reflex save, and apparently used the winter hag's saves... I was taking the -1 into account (or I would have just continued to neglect it) but I used the  hag's +8 to start with.

I still debate the squeezing being appropriate - going to your analogy from the last post, it's like having a 1.25' cube in one corner of a 5' creature's square, and a 1.25' tall by 2.5' long rectangle a foot away from it.  Is the medium creature going through a space that is less than its full size - sure.  Is it squeezing?  If my dino is squeezing, he'll have to go 1 square further to attack (and since that changes the 2 square penalty to a 1 square penalty, he'd have the movement for it).  If he does, he will collapse your ceiling, leaving debris and forcing you to squeeze... your square will be less than a 5' tall, forcing you to squeeze?

Regardless, to keep things moving in case it is ruled that squeezing is in effect, I choose to reroll the attack, but will need to be in a different position (as squeezing forces you to move into the squeezed amount for your entire space) which will cause him to go further and collapse Grunyar's roof:

Update if squeezing is required:

<tt>
Position: (A4,D7)+2

ROLL:
11:29, Today: Thraxis rolled 27 using 1d20+11 with rolls of 16.  Attack reroll on grunyar (14 base +2 str -2size +1 height -4 squeeze).</tt>

OOC: Squeezing puts him up into the to 3 squares of the arena.

The ankylosaurus is not squeezing, it takes up its 4x4 squares as it should. It is on uneven ground though, and needs to make balance checks as per the house rule.
I'm not sure how cover works. It seems like the hag should have cover, but I can't find a reference for this.

OOC: Asking for the reroll does not allow a change in tactics I believe.  The squeezing would not have changed your location just take into account that there are a couple of squares that your body is not freely able to move. No matter I will allow you changing tactics but you need to make a strength check/attack roll to callapse roof your entire weight is not on it unlike the building you started in your weight is just on the outside wall.

Ankou the cover I had wrong I was thinking of melee attack, he has reach so he uses range attack rules no matter how goofy it seem hag gets no cover.

Are you guys still resolving things, or should I go?  Though I confess I'm still figuring out the rules a bit here.

It's not your fault about the rules confusion, Edward.  The rules were designed for mostly medium creatures dealing fighting big monsters only in their own environments.  We've taken the big monsters and crammed them into rooms that they don't fit in.

Ankou and Grunyar want me to resolve in mutually exclusive ways.  I conformed to Grunyar's request, made the needed movement adjustment to deal with the rules of how he wanted it and gave him his reroll, but now he wants me to make more rolls while Ankou wants me to go back to where I'd be at the beginning of my turn and start making rolls from there, resolving it mechanically an entirely different way.

It's round one and I'm ready for this match to end.

OOC: A) At the start of my turn all dinosaurs where in their respected building which your will fit in requiring and escape artist check or str check to get out of then some how with out any actions at all you are free to move about. Which would drastically changed my round actions if any of the dinos where free to move about.


B) All I ask for was 1 roll at proper modifiers because you where squeezed there was no need for you to move any closer.

C) Ankou is right you need a balance check per area a rules to make the move over uneven ground.

D) now that you are standing on the walls you need to actually hit the ceiling to bring it down like I said in previous post your weight is on wall not ceiling.

I am on phone sorry if there is any typos.

Ankou - Grunyar is saying that there is vertical squeezing.

The ankylosaurus could not fit in the building to begin with and till take actions this combat at all - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipm...nal/damaging-objects - The strength check is an alternative to dealing damage as part of an attack.  When squeezing you are forced into the minimum width for the whole length of your base, and at under half space (and it would be forced into 3x2 out of 4x4) you cannot attack but have to make escape artist checks instead - DC 30, 1 min, and the ankylosaurus has a penalty on escape artist rolls.

I thought the house rule on uneven surface did not apply as there is no middle ground.  It's not stairs or a hill, it's a single low wall of uniform height, which when averaged out over the squares of land was +0 anyway, so there was nowhere to fall to.  So, I took the highest of any low wall penalties and moved out.

When Grunyar called it squeezing (which I was willing to go along with) it forced the whole of the ankylosaurus up to the +2 height, as that's what squeezing does to your space, a few things happened - 1) the dino was entirely restricted to the +3, +4 and +5 spaces - he could not stand on the lower ground because he was having his shape altered by the squeeze (which I thought would thus require standard acrobatics narrow ledge rules which would have been dc 5, since the widths dc's aren't scaled for size, and below dc 10 does not require a roll and so doesn't leave you flat footed) and 2) the dino lost line of sight to Grunyar and so had to move further to make the declared attack.

To your point d - 1/7 of the dino's weight theoretically rested on C7 until it gave way.  That's over 10 tons (average gargantuan weights 70.5 tons http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamema...tened-area-templates - on a single 1 inch thick square of concrete.  If you think he had unobstructed LOS with the increased height from squeezing, I'm fine with him being back in the previous (A3,D6) I was just trying to comply with your interpretation without making my turn impossible as declared.

I will answer your post in a bit I don't have time or patients to type it on phone

 May I suggest something and you all can weigh in?

 The three big ones spend full-round action in their first round to demolish all the low walls (pretend they're weaker than what we first thought), and from round 2 on they are considered as being on difficult terrain until the end of the fight. No one is squeezing.
 The Hag keeps her wall (which I think does provide cover as long as you're adjacent to it)

 Would that be all right with you Grunyar? That gives you the equivalent of a prep round (or a sucker punch on someone) and will make everything easier from that point on. Bear in mind that we've already let the Hag keep her staff, which RAW would not be the case (and specific arena rules mentions that you cannot prepare effects that last longer than 24h before a fight).

 I just don't want to spend a week figure out how to play this. Remember we have to rise as Zombies after that...

That solution is fine with me, I would have been fine with him just making the attack roll I may see it different but I was not asking for his whole dino to be +2 I saw the wall as acting like a bulkhead in reverse and beings it really was only able to raise his mid section up causing it to be a little more difficult to maneuver.  That option I guess has now passed I agree with your proposal.  That is exactly what I figured would happen anyway and jives with the information that was originally presented before miraculously the roof was gone and his dino was free without any actions used.

 Edward, Thraxis, you ok with that?

 (note that would mean retconing our first round)

Sounds good to me.

I'm on board for this.  Other than the ankylosaurus taking some damage, move straight to Ankou's second turn, delete all the walls other than Grunyar's hut and call everything outside of his hut difficult terrain?

Sounds good!

 Grunyar, can you post a summary of our first round, including your actions and mentikn that the others spend full-round-actions breaking out ?
I won't be on a computer for an other 10h and updating the map from a phone is dino-sized pain in the ass.

OOC: On the road to work myself on phone for next 13 hrs :-)
Just leave my first round as is with dino successfully making save if that's OK

ooc: currently posting the new map and taking my round 2 turn

Previously, on Dino Mash:
 Ankou's Stegosaurus, Thraxis' Giant Ankylosaurus and Edward's War Bull have spent their first round levelling the ground, leaving rumble all over the floor of the arena. The only structures still standing are the pillars and the walls of the Hag's house.

 The Winter Hag used her breath weapon on Thraxis' monster, but the massive beast looks hardly damaged at all.

  Round 2:
 Stegosaurus waits patiently...   



T = Thraxis's Giant Ankylosaurus
G = Grunyar's Winter Hag
E = Edward's War Bull
A = Ankou's Stegosaurus

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...dinosaur/stegosaurus

ROUND: Round 2 (ini 10)

POSITION:  H2
 ACTIONS: none so far.

 HP: 90/90
 AC: 22; FFAC: 20; Touch: 10; CMD: 31

 DICE ROLLS: none

 SUMMARY: Steggy waits.