This thread is for in-game comments that would be made in the main thread except that they might slow the flow down or make it difficult for some people to follow.  For example, the types of things that should be here are:

1) Questioning the all-powerful DM and risking the judgment of the gods to fall upon your character's heads:

In other words, if you think I goofed up, let me know.  I may not change the post, but I'll have it mind to avoid again.  Example:

In game post (DM):  "You get hit with dragon fear."
Post here (Player):  "You forgot my amulet."
DM: Oh, I'll fix it.  (edits game thread)

2) Clarifying any in game details:
Example 1:
Player:  Is he ahead or behind me?  What square is he in?  Can I reach the potion on the shelf from here?

Example 2:
DM:  Player, you forgot to tell me your ending position.  Let me know, or I'll have to take my best guess.

3) Other things that are relevant to the current situation in the game but just probably don't belong there.  Example:

Borimer, are you wearing your +5 Hula Skirt of hip movement?

4)  Celebrations or comments.  Example:

Woohoo, I just hit AC-10 with my heavy metal guitar of fretting.  Take that, Asmodeus!

* * *

WHAT NOT TO POST HERE:

Don't post here any IC dialogue that belongs in the flow of the game.

Don't post here your main move in the game (such as where the character is going and what he is doing).

One thing I had thought about doing is opening a new "game" for this game.

The new game would be sort of like a wiki or website where the following would be posted:

Team gear/equipment
Adventure summaries
These comment threads

Anything else where mutual use/editing would be helpful.  I already cleared with the moderators that this is acceptable under the ToU.

The reason for this is that I would give all players a referee status on the other board.  That way, you can edit any thread, rather than just ones that you created.  You could also post pictures or things that you can't do here.

The result will be a wiki type of board.  If you take equipment, you can just edit the equipment thread and place it in your character thread.  And for those who don't want to use it, they could stay over here exclusively (and let Adaran or someone assist with the group stuff).

Also, I thought this might be good for editing the adventure summaries.  That way, if there's something in the summary that you think is important but wasn't included, you edit the summary to fit it into the right place.

This is just an idea so far.  Thought I'd take up your opinions on it.

I had seen your post in the discussion forum, and after some thought, came up with another potential solution. In a now slightly defunct PBEM game I'm part of, we used a Google Documents spreadsheet to take care of characters and their henchmen, along with active spells that have long durations (like Barkskin for example). We also took care of HP, levels, AC, magical equipment, and the likes that could change often.

It simply requires a Google account, which are free, and someone who has slight understandings of how it works. I could likely figure it out if we wanted to go that route, and explain it to Heath if he wanted to be the owner of the document (which I'm pretty sure has no real bearing if everyone has edit rights).

I had thought of something like that.  My concern is that I don't want people to have to go sign up for services just to participate.  Doing one more RTJ is one thing; going off site to sign up just to participate seemed a little too much to request.

Heath, if Borimer and/or Adaran kill the first winged demon before one of them fires their second shot, can that second shot be directed at the other winged demon instead? For example, if Borimer's and Adaran's first shots take the first winged demon down to 9 HP, and Borimer's second shot finishes it off, can Adaran's second shot be aimed at the other winged demon?

i like the idea of a second site for a gathering spot of information on our characters and the adventure. the google spreadsheet would work too if i dont have to go and make an account :)

Like I said, it was just a suggestion. I personally prefer using Excel to keep track of stuff, since making spreadsheets is easier then making charts here. Also, if you have a Gmail account, then you by default have a Google account. Of course, if you have neither, then, well... yeah, you'd have to make one.

If it's specified in the move, then I recall a rule where you can change targets if the target is killed during the first attack.  I can't recall if there were restrictions to that rule or if it was limited to a NWP or warriors though...

For purposes of this round, I'll allow it.

Cool. I don't know if Borimer and Adaran will kill the first winged demon in less than four shots, but it's certainly a possibility. If that happens, then I suppose either Borimer's or Adaran's second shot can be fired at the other winged demon, depending on who has faster initiative (i.e. if Adaran's initiative is faster, then he'd kill the first demon before Borimer fired his second shot and Borimer could aim his shot at the other winged demon; if Borimer's initiative is faster, then the reverse would happen).

Borimer almost always gets first initiative because of his NWP.  I've slowed him a little with his lung problem, but he's still got a good initiative.

Okay, so if Borimer kills the first winged demon before Adaran fires his second shot, Adaran will fire his second shot at the other winged demon.

I take it that once the winged demon vanished in a puff of smoke, the 4 arrows stuck in it fell to the ground?

Yes, they are recoverable.

I'm not sure why Grizz is bothering with the soulfeeder in the first place, since it's attacking the dwarf. Adaran hasn't exactly "left him with a hostile demon". Just for the record. ;)

But the dwarf is extending an olive branch to the party.  Also, if Grizz leaves the attack, he is subject to an attack of opportunity by the demon.

You're also viewing this from a metagaming perspective.  In reality, you don't know that the demon is only attacking the dwarf to Grizz's exclusion.  You just see the dwarf and Grizz engaging it, particularly since Adaran and Borimer have been focused on the flying demons and not particularly watching what is going on.

I take issue with you saying I'm viewing things from a metagaming perspective. I'm not. The soulfeeder and the dwarf have been engaged in one-on-one combat for a number of rounds now. Grizz took it upon himself to attack the soulfeeder when he didn't have to, and anyone looking in that direction can plainly see that the soulfeeder has just been focusing on the dwarf all this time. So let's drop the "metagaming" label.

As for the dwarf's olive branch, he pointedly ignored Kahan's offer to team up against the demons just moments ago and his pal went ahead and sliced Grung's arm from behind, but I guess having their powerful mage ally dead makes them a little more inclined to appeal to our sense of mercy. ;) So Adaran's not too interested in saving the poor, severely outnumbered dwarf at this point. :)
This message was last edited by the player at 23:58, Thu 30 June 2011.

I would just like to ask that Adaran stop making these out of character comments about how people are playing their characters. Personally I find them just as offensive as he does when people say he's metagaming.

Further, a magic using character of any type can use scroll spells higher than the level he can actually cast, with a 25% chance of failure per level above, minus 10% per point of wisdom over 12.  (This does not apply unless the person can actually cast spells: for example, a 7th level ranger cannot use any scrolls, but an 8th level ranger could.)


So, even though Raise Dead is two spell levels above my own, I can still cast it with a 0% chance of failure (not counting the resurrection success thing)? Since 2 levels is 50%, but I have 17 wisdom which is 5 above 12, thus evening out.

I only commented about it because Grizz's IC post included an OOC-ish narrative about Adaran's IC actions (without actually saying it OOC) that in my opinion misrepresents the situation and more or less points a finger at Adaran as abandoning his companion in a fight. I brought up the fact that Grizz didn't have to engage the soulfeeder in the first place and that the soulfeeder has been focused on attacking the enemy dwarf in order to establish that Adaran really isn't "leaving him with a hostile demon". I'm not criticizing the way the player is playing Grizz, just taking issue with the narrative about Adaran's actions. That was the basis and context for my out of character comment.

Further, when you say "stop making these out of character comments about how people are playing their characters", that makes it sound like I've been constantly making "these" sorts of comments about people's posts in a plural sense, which is not true, and once again misrepresents my posts. And lastly, I could point out examples of you yourself making out of character criticisms and less-than-friendly remarks about my IC posts (and more specifically about the way I roleplay Adaran) if I chose to. I won't because I see no reason to revisit those tangents now, but in context it makes your above statement extremely hypocritical. So I would ask that all of us simply refrain from OOC and narrative criticisms about each other from now on.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:40, Fri 01 July 2011.

I, too, could point out at least a few more comments you've made, most of which I can remember were aimed at me, usually about healing or spell use. But I agree, it's best to just stop then let it escalate (like we usually do).

To me, it simply looked like Adaran had forgotten there were still enemies around and engaging his friends, but if he says otherwise, that's fine.

Grizz's out of character comment was a friendly reminder from me -- yes, you may have guessed by now that I have taken over Grizz as an NPC, at least temporarily.  It wasn't meant as anything more.

The reason I say that is because if you read my "summary" post it may actually look like the battle is over, so I thought it might have been my fault.

And I didn't mean "metagaming" in a bad way.  Everyone metagames to some extent; it's all about perspective and seeing that you understand more about the situation than your character probably does.  For example, Grizz did not engage the soulfeeder to protect the dwarf, but to protect all of you from it once it defeats the dwarf, and to be ready to attack the dwarf if he wins.  Now he is locked in combat whether he wants to be or not.  Your characters would probably notice that.  But how they react is up to them...

Yes, that's right.  He can cast it from a scroll and a mage could scribe it into his spellbook, but he cannot use it outside the scroll (and a mage could not use it straight from his spellbook until he was at a level to use it properly).

It's not that Adaran "forgot" there are still enemies around engaging his friends, it's that in his perspective, the two remaining enemies are too preoccupied fighting each other to attack his friends - for the time being. That may change now that Grizz is attacking the soulfeeder, but just as you pointed out that characters don't always perceive everything or understand what's going on as well as we do, Adaran didn't expect Grizz to engage the soulfeeder after he told him and Grung to let the dwarf handle it - and was in such a hurry to get moving that he didn't keep his eyes on Grizz to make sure he listened to him.

Ironically, Borimer is now the only one with an orc medallion (hidden under his armor I imagine). The only other character who had one is Marcus, and he of course is dead in the portable hole. Draaz, Adaran, and Kahan joined the group after Borimer and Marcus had been awarded the medallions, and I don't think Grizz or Grung ever had one either.

Guilty by association, I guess.

You weren't around, but in a previous adventure, they named their group, so I'm assuming anyone associated with the group gets the same assumptions placed against them regarding the medallions.

Well, the "group" in question is really just Borimer at this point. ;) Prior to the rest of us coming in, "The Jesters" were Borimer, Marcus, and some other characters who are now either dead or no longer around. So I guess we're all guilty by association with Borimer. ;)

If there's anything your characters wanted to do besides get the earthrocs ready to go ASAP, then you can have them do it.

My last post was to get to the next part without delay, assuming everyone is pitching in to get the earthrocs saddled and harnessed and Prump ready to go.  Other actions will cause a delay which I will figure into the following round.

I also assume all equipment, weapons, and Maellarean's things were also gathered in that time.

how did we finally decide on doing the healing spells?

Same as before.

so 2 clw's would be (25% of 70 hp x 2) = 35 hit points of healing? would this take borimer to 47?

44 actually. You're currently at 8, so the first CLW would bring you to 26 and the second would raise you to 44. Grung would be healed to 30/60.

Character Statistics updated as of ROUND 6:

Hit Points
Borimer:   8/70 (speed halved and -3 to attacks and saving throws for 3 Turns)
Marcus:  -10/60 (dead, poisoned*, pre-drowning, 1/2 Constitution)
Draaz:   -10/20 (dead, Critical Failure on resurrection)
Adaran:   25/42
Kahan:    24/54
Grizz:    35/66
Grung:    15/60 (speed halved and -3 to attacks and saving throws for 3 Turns)

Ammunition
Borimer: 10 sheaf arrows, 3 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Adaran:   5 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed), 10 flight arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Kahan:    6 sling bullets
Grizz:   Javelin +1 (unclaimed)
Grung:   Hand axe

Fired Shots
Borimer:  2 sheaf arrows (on beach), 4 sheaf arrows +1 (1 in winged demon, 3 lost in forest)
Marcus:   0
Draaz:    0
Adaran:   0
Kahan:    0
Grizz:    0
Grung:    0
This message was last edited by the player at 01:10, Wed 06 July 2011.

k thx, 44/70 hp then with kahan's 2nd clw

So I forget, we roll for new HP right?

i believe you get max hp

will we have time before the invasion to identify and divide our treasure? we will need it for the upcoming battle, and its something we could have done possibly the night before or in the morning

Yes.  You will have one day in which to do all those things, including converse with the dwarves about the state of things.

And yes, you always take max hp when you level up.

Cool, now I've got 63 HP and a 16 Thac0. I'm almost useful in combat! :D

I believe when Heath says "free weapon access", he is probably referring to the dwarves lifting their restriction on weapons being taken into the compound, since everyone had best be prepared for an assault by the orcs.


Actually, not only did he fail his resurrection survival roll, he got a Critical Miss, and the rules state that even a normal failure means nothing short of divine intervention can bring a character back to life. Not to mention elves supposedly can't be raised from death anyway since they allegedly have no souls... ;) But I think Heath may have (justifiably) overruled that particular rule since it's utterly absurd.

By the way guys, don't forget to add your +10% XP bonuses for 16+ Class Attributes (which I think all of us qualify for)! Heath doesn't include these bonuses in the XP totals he hands out so you need to remember to factor it in whenever you are awarded XP.

I already did the experience thing (actually had to stop and remind myself though).

And Kahan wouldn't know what a 'critical miss' is on the resurrection roll so he has no idea it's not supposed to work again, he just doesn't want to use another spell off his scrolls if he can help it. I didn't forget about it, it's just called 'roleplaying'. :P

Character Statistics updated as of the end of Temple of Ashmere:

Hit Points
Borimer:  70/70
Marcus:  -10/60 (dead, poisoned*, pre-drowning, 1/2 Constitution)
Draaz:   -10/20 (dead, Critical Failure on resurrection)
Adaran:   42/42
Kahan:    54/54
Grizz:    66/66
Grung:    60/60

Ammunition
Borimer: 10 sheaf arrows, 3 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Adaran:   5 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed), 10 flight arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Kahan:    6 sling bullets
Grizz:   Javelin +1 (unclaimed)
Grung:   Hand axe

Fired Shots
Borimer:  0
Marcus:   0
Draaz:    0
Adaran:   0
Kahan:    0
Grizz:    0
Grung:    0


Anyone besides Kahan and me level up?

By the way, my HP is now 63.

I know, I haven't yet updated character statistics as of everyone leveling up, just as of completing the adventure. :)

Well, technically, I would have leveled up before the end of it (since that's when we got exp, just Heath decided to give it to us later), but I see what you're getting at. So carry on.

I'm planning to update everyone's new HP totals at the same time, the same as I do after each round of action/combat. I just need to know if anyone else leveled up before I update the stats to the present.

Didn't level.  So no changes on my end.

Okay. So now I just need to know about Borimer and Grizz.

good xps but no change yet for borimer

Yes.  You may remember they would not allow weapons into the compound previously, and they held them for you before you could enter (leading into an unarmed combat situation later).  Now, however, you can freely carry and use your weapons within the compound due to the imminent threat from the orcs.

Due to the complexities of resurrection and potential complications with angering the gods, the dwarves do not give any options regarding Draaz.  Their healing prowess is limited to helping the living.


Anyone who can wear shoes can have souls.  :)

Yes, this is true.

it would be a mistake to have borimer in the negotiations with krugoth (low charisma and bad manner + orc charm already known, etc). who has the high charisma? and is anyone else wondering if we should take the portable hole (and everything in it) and flee? :)

The compound is currently under siege by the orcs, which is why the earthrocs are necessary.  So it is doubtful you could flee unless you stole the earthrocs.

For participation purposes, feel free to tell whoever is speaking to Krugoth what you would say if you could.  I don't want everyone to feel like they have to sit back and wait.

Also, basic communications will not require a roll, just things involve haggling, arguing, and things like that.

Parrying is not a proficiency, it's an option available to all characters at no cost, with far greater benefits - and far fewer restrictions - than Tumbling. This is why I think Tumbling needs a serious revamp. Currently there is literally zero reason for me to use Tumbling over basic parrying to improve my AC - parrying grants the same AC bonus (-4 to AC since I'm now level 8, and that will continue to improve by -1 every 2 levels, where as Tumbling's bonus is fixed at -4 to AC regardless of level) with none of the restrictions Tumbling imposes (light encumbrance or less, must have initiative, can only be performed for a number of rounds up to Constitution score, need ample space for acrobatics, etc).

Even with your house rule for Tumbling, basic non-proficient parrying is still far superior - it requires no NWP slots, improves automatically every 2 levels (which also means it will yield far better AC bonus than Tumbling because Rogues only get a new NWP slot every 4 levels, and thus are better off with basic parrying anyway), and never imposes any of the restrictions that Tumbling does. Since the basis for Parrying getting better with level is that the defender is gaining more and more combat experience, Tumbling (i.e. dodging attacks rather than deflecting them) should also get better with level - particularly for characters who are more likely to dodge than parry, like rogues and other melee-light classes. It makes no sense for an experienced acrobat to have better odds of defense with parrying blows like a warrior than he does with utilizing his acrobatic skills to avoid blows entirely. For someone like a rogue, dodging should be a far more viable means of defense than trying to parry like a warrior.

You weren't complaining about how different the Tumbling NWP was when you were, say, level 5, when your Parrying bonus would have only been (as I understand it) 2. If you want to get your Tumbling NWP better, I think you should only be allowed to increase it with another NWP slot. My healing NWP won't get any better unless I spend more points, so why should your NWP's get better with levels?


Honestly, I'm not even sure why you bring this up now, but anyway, I was going to post something about how I'll be stepping up to the plate with Krugoth. If anyone wants to interject something, feel free to before I finish my tale, since I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I know there are things I left out on purpose, like all the little fights we got into, and how we actually managed to get inside, or how we solved all the puzzles... but I don't think that will be necessary to tell to the grizzled old Dwarf. ;)

Actually, you're wrong. I've always thought Tumbling should be level-dependent rather than a fixed bonus, and since your memory about this seems to be lacking, recall that I brought up this issue a long, long time ago - and you agreed with me! Now you apparently disagree with me, which I find ironic. I also find it offensive that you're insinuating I only care about changing rules when it benefits my character. Not only is that flat out wrong, but it's rude and also entirely irrespective of all the points I raised for why I think this rule needs to be changed. If I make a statement that "x rule should be changed because of y and z", don't come at me with snarky remarks saying "you only care about changing x rule because of a and b", and then avoid addressing y and z altogether. This follows with your typical obnoxious trend of criticizing things I suggest and making subjects about me and my supposed underlying motives while disregarding the actual points I raise in my arguments entirely. If you want to discuss this subject, fine. But stop with your little digs and jabs at me and have an actual civil, respectful, impersonal debate about it. Because I have had it with your nonstop snark towards me.


Well if you go by that logic, why should Parrying get better with levels? Why should THAC0 get better with levels? Why should anything get better with levels? Why not just have everything purchased with our extremely limited quantity of NWP's? The problem is that some things in D&D are experience-oriented (that is, they improve with the character's increasing experience), and other things are completely non-experience-oriented. Typically, the things which improve with level revolve specifically around two focal points in the game: combat and class abilities. So THAC0, HP, attacks per round, spell-casting, thieving skills, etc. reflect increasing experience while some NWP's relate to character level and some do not. This is an inconsistency which I think is illogical, but that's how the game was made.

Personally, I think proficiencies like Healing should improve with experience - assuming the healer uses it frequently enough. But D&D revolves around combat and I'm guessing that's why something like Parrying improves with level while Healing doesn't. In the end, it honestly doesn't make much sense and I think we need to recognize that fact. The game seems to assume that combat-oriented abilities are the main ones that should reflect experience, while non-combat skills (i.e. most NWP's) only improve if you spend extra slots on them - and even then, they only improve by a very small degree compared to combat abilities. You really don't get much bang for your buck there at all, especially when you consider how long you have to wait between gaining new NWP's and how few of them you can ever hope to acquire in total.

As an example, take Borimer's prowess with blind fighting. He's had that skill since (I believe) level 1, and has gained a ton of experience since then, so who's to say that he isn't now effectively a "level 7 blind-fighter"? That would make just as much sense as a "level 7 parrier" - yet the game doesn't treat these skills equally. Borimer is officially a "Fighter", but in actuality he's not just like every other cookie-cutter fighter, he has his own developed skills which are essentially part of his specialty and individual style. Yet, since those skills are not "Class skills" that are part of the basic Fighter kit, they do not improve with his experience the way his other abilities do.

Consider how awkward this inequity would be to explain to a person IC. To anyone in the setting (i.e. characters who have no concept of D&D mechanics and only see what's in front of them with their own eyes), it would be difficult to make sense out of the fact that it's far easier and quicker to improve combat skills than to improve skills relating to anything other than combat like healing, tumbling, or whatever. The game seems to operate on the assumption that everything that isn't directly tied to combat or the standard character classes is secondary, and therefore does not fluidly improve with experience.

For instance, as a "Thief", I can increase "Read Languages" every level if I so choose, but to increase my acrobatic skills I have to wait 4 levels. So the game has decided for me what skills are important to my role/occupation and what skills are secondary. To anyone not versed in D&D mumbo-jumbo, they'd see very little distinction between a "Class skill" like deciphering writings and a "normal skill" like performing acrobatics or playing the lute or cooking, or whatever. The reality is that there isn't actually any significant divide in classification of these skills - the game simply treats them that way in order to narrow the focus of each character's role and abilities for the betterment of the group. It may be somewhat justifiable given the game's intended context for adventurers of specific walks of life, but that doesn't mean it's actually realistic or logical.

Anyway, short answer - I agree, there's no reason tumbling should get better with level while healing doesn't. I think both should improve with experience. I happen to think any skill that a character uses regularly in the course of adventuring should hone and improve over time, just like we'd expect in real life. The game doesn't do that. But does that mean the game is right? That it shouldn't be changed? I operate on this rationale: if the game did something right, keep it; if it did something wrong, change it. I don't believe in either enforcing or resisting change for either liberalism's or conservatism's own sake; each idea should be handled on a case-by-case basis, and merit should win out over whether it's a preservation or a change. It's the merit of something that matters, not its source.


I had been discussing it with Heath in private threads for quite some time. I'm bringing it up now because Heath just now posted the new rule for Tumbling. I thought that was obvious.

I realized why you brought it up shortly after posting, since I always check the IC thread first, the OOC ones next, then the top Rules threads last. I simply forgot/didn't care enough to edit it out.

Honestly I can't remember you bringing it up before, but if I agreed, I'll take your word for it. So much shit has been going on in my life that it's likely I've forgotten about it. The fact I said something rude isn't entirely surprising either; I've been dealing with the loss of my mother for a month now and it's still taking a (not so surprising) toll on my emotions and my level of patience. At the age of 19 I wasn't expecting to have to walk past the ashes of one of my parents every day when I get up to have breakfast.

Anyway (sorry about the tangent), I'm always leery about changing the game. Borimer has said before he doesn't like doing it, since this is supposed to be 2nd edition AD&D. I don't mind some changes, but adding things to our NWP's out of the blue would be just as unrealistic as never adding them beforehand. "Look at how much better I can all of a sudden tumble to avoid being attacked! I was doing this just a day ago and now I'm suddenly twice as good as before!" Does that make any sense? I don't think so.

If you want, I'll go and find the post where you said you agreed. Just let me know (and yes, I'm aware that you're taking my word for it and not arguing the point - so I'm offering regardless).

As for what you have been going through, I am sincerely sorry. And this brings some perspective to things lately, which I appreciate.


Well that's really an exaggeration. I'm not necessarily advocating that Tumbling should be twice as effective as Parrying (i.e. -1 AC per level vs -1 AC per two levels), but on the other extreme end of the spectrum, it doesn't make much sense that a paid-for proficiency is utterly inferior to a free ability, does it? At level 20, anyone can improve their AC by 10 with Parrying, where as Tumbling only improves it by 4. I'm only level 8 and already Tumbling has outlived its usefulness in combat compared to basic parrying. That's not right.

It wouldn't even be fair to make Tumbling grant an equal rate of AC improvement to Parrying, since once again, Tumbling is purchased and comes with a lot of restrictions while Parrying is free and comes with none of those restrictions. So ultimately, Tumbling needs to offer a higher advantage over Parrying to make up for its cost and restrictions or it simply doesn't make sense. That's just basic logic and I'm sure anyone could agree with that. Remember, both Tumbling and Parrying require the defender to forfeit attacks that round - so we're not talking about making someone more powerful in combat, this is strictly defensive. The best a person could achieve would be to effectively remove themselves from the melee, which is its own drawback too.

Anyhow, I think Tumbling should perhaps be about 50% more effective than Parrying (you are, after all, dodging out of the way of attacks rather than trying to deflect them with your weapon, which is more difficult and requires more combat skill - i.e. more experience/higher level to be as effective as dodging). So, say by level 20, Tumbling would offer as much as 15 better AC - if the character has been using it since level 1 - compared to the 10 better AC that Parrying offers at level 20. So each level would proceed as follows regarding AC improvement:

Level       Tumbling AC  Parrying AC
1           -1           -1
2           -1           -1
3           -2           -1
4           -3           -2
5           -4           -2
6           -4           -3
7           -5           -3
8           -6           -4
9           -7           -4
10          -7           -5
11          -8           -5
12          -9           -6
13          -10          -6
14          -10          -7
15          -11          -7
16          -12          -8
17          -13          -8
18          -13          -9
19          -14          -9
20          -15          -10

With this curve, my "jump" in dodging ability would only be by 2, which is hardly noticeable, and no more than a Priest's THAC0 increase at level-up (and technically, I wouldn't even be suddenly improving by 2 because I would supposedly have been better by 1 during level 7 anyway). We're talking about a factor of literally 10% on a d20. That is honestly not much of a leap, especially considering the fickle nature of dice rolls and unpredictable combinations of round-to-round modifiers. For all you know, I might have had that extra -2 to AC for months now, for all the evidence you could reliably derive IC.

In actuality, modifiers to d20 rolls don't start becoming very noticeable (particularly IC where characters only witness results, rather than dice rolls) until you get into bigger quantities like +/-5 or greater. Heath could easily throw in a -2 to dice rolls and no one would ever be the wiser. He could even conceivably factor in -4 to rolls and no one would realize it because they would just dismiss the results as the well-known fickle nature of dice. The daunting frequency of 1's and 20's in this game are more than ample proof of that bizarre circumstance. So I really don't think anyone would notice any change unless they specifically kept their eyes open for it after internalizing this OOC discussion about it. Basically, no one would notice IC without metagaming - and even then, they might still not see evidence of it (since an extra -2 to AC is hardly a guarantee against getting hit, as I think we all know too well).

I have to disagree with some of the basic assumptions here.  Parrying is for melee combat.  If you are being shot at by arrows, tumbling will help you and parrying will not.

Tumbling also moves you out of harm's way.  Parrying means you can't move or do anything while defending.  Tumbling means you can escape and avoid an attack of opportunity.

And in any case, parrying is a specific combat maneuver based on level, which is based on some experience in combat.  Tumbling has a side effect bonus on combat but is not itself a combat maneuver.

Rules -- (in addition to attack, move, run, use an item, cover, load or change weapon, etc., you can choose to do the following):

Parry
"Parrying is a no-move action that is in effect for the entire combat round. If a character parries, he cannot move, attack, or cast spells."

Guard
"Guarding is a half-move action, or a no-move action if the character stands her ground. A guarding character strikes the moment an attacker moves into the guarding character's threatening squares, regardless of her actual initiative and action phase."

Cover
"A character with a cocked and loaded crossbow, or an arrow nocked and drawn in a bow, can announce that he is covering an opponent within his weapon's short range."

Withdraw
Withdrawing essentially moves away from combat (at half move) without turning from the opponent and thereby avoids an attack of opportunity.

(I did not include the complete rules on these.  They are in the Combat and Tactics Guide.)

* * *

So tumbling is a "withdrawal" for melee that gives an AC bonus or a move and AC bonus when avoiding long range fire.  It is nothing at all like "parrying" in its purpose or scope.  Adaran is correct that, in a melee situation where he is holding a weapon and doesn't want to move, he is better off with parrying now that he is a high level.  In other avoidance situations, tumbling is helpful where parrying is not.

Tumbling is probably mostly effective in other situations too.  It can be used as entertainment and to increase charisma effects on an audience.  It can also be used in some physical, non-combat situations (traps, etc.).

I'm planning a rather lengthy IC post which will include some important info, so please bear with me. I can't post just yet, as I'm busy at work.

Character Statistics updated as of the end of the adventure and XP awards:

Hit Points
Borimer:  70/70
Marcus:  -10/60 (dead, poisoned*, pre-drowning, 1/2 Constitution)
Draaz:   -10/20 (dead, Critical Failure on resurrection)
Adaran:   48/48
Kahan:    63/63
Grizz:    66/66
Grung:    60/60

This is assuming that Grizz didn't level.

Several notes:


Note that Marcus and Draaz, who were also part of the original bargain, died in pursuit of fulfilling the mission and were instrumental in our success. It isn't fair for Krugoth to (conveniently) wave all obligations regarding their rightful compensation just because they're now dead. He owes them, whether that means setting aside rewards for them to be given out upon their resurrection, or if that's not possible, redistributing their shares to the rest of us. Him benefitting from their deaths by not having to pay for their services - services they died carrying out - is utterly wrong (and dishonorable), in my opinion. Also, before you go thinking this is just some sneaky way for me to benefit from Marcus' and Draaz's deaths, I would actually prefer their shares to be either held for them or go to some sort of group fund to pay for the party's collective needs during the course of adventuring.

This note is just an OOC for the players, rather than directed at Heath, since Heath is just playing Krugoth in character. But I would think that Borimer and Kahan might well consider these things IC (especially Borimer, as Marcus and Draaz were his closest companions), which is why I bring them up OOC. If they don't, then Adaran might bring it up to them.


Note that, as explained in the OOC thread, the only artifacts Krugoth truly has a rightful claim to are those found in the temple - not those we collected from battles with Tarimar's forces. Again, this is an OOC reference for the players to establish the facts, regardless of what Krugoth thinks he's entitled to. Everyone in the group would be well aware that not everything we found was obtained from the temple.


Krugoth doesn't (shouldn't) actually even know about the two Bags of Holding we obtained from Darwen and Maelarian, since we wouldn't have placed these in the Portable Hole (per Draaz's warning about putting extra-dimensional spaces within extra-dimensional spaces). If someone in the group chooses to mention to Krugoth that we found these, that's one thing, but currently he should have no knowledge of them. I'm thinking Borimer and/or Kahan might be carrying the Bags of Holding in their packs at the moment.


Likewise, Krugoth shouldn't yet have any knowledge of the scrolls because these are currently in Kahan's possession in scroll cases, not in the Portable Hole. Again, I'm not saying that we are or should be concealing these items from Krugoth, just that they simply haven't yet been revealed IC in the course of events thus far.

Here's the deal:

If there is something you want to conceal from Krugoth, let me know.  If we go into detail about every single item he does or does not know about, we will take a month instead of a few days in getting this bartering done.  In his mind, anything you received from the time of borrowing the earthrocs to returning them is part of his contributed effort and resources, but you will have to discuss that with him.

If you conceal things from him, I will have to make a roll to see if he has suspicions that you are lying or holding back.  If confirmed, his reaction will likely not be very good.

Your understanding is that he is primarily interested in anything that will help them win the war -- weapons, gold, and related magic.  He is less inclined to want to keep anything that is irrelevant to that goal.  Use this knowledge in your bartering as well.

As for the other things, you will have to see his reaction in character, which will be partially dependent on the rolls.  Relating to Marcus and Draaz, he (and the dwarves) have a different take on providing for those who die when the living still have needs.

Two things - just because Krugoth isn't currently aware of something (like the scrolls in Kahan's scroll cases or the Bags of Holding, etc) does not by any means entail that someone is purposefully concealing them and actively ensuring he doesn't find out about them. Kahan, for instance, is probably not even thinking about the scrolls and magic bags right now, since he likely has more important concerns at the moment. Krugoth being unaware of certain items in our possession doesn't mean we're "concealing" them anymore than him being unaware of our battle with the purple worm would mean we're hiding that from him. He simply doesn't know about them yet, whether we intend to conceal them or not.

Secondly, why would he even get a roll to see if he has suspicions that we're holding back something? We don't get rolls like that when another character is keeping something to themselves - especially if that character isn't even conversing about the subject in the first place. He would need some sort of outward sign that something is being withheld or concealed, or omitted from the discussion to even have a chance of suspecting something. OOC, you know that we have found things which we haven't yet brought to Krugoth's attention, but IC, Krugoth hasn't got a clue what all we acquired. He shouldn't even get a roll to determine if we're hiding something without some reason to suspect that in the first place. He's not psychic after all.

I'll have to disagree.  When a dwarf who is a merchant and trader by trade is engaging in a deal, he is actively looking for any signs of deceit, including eyeing your possessions, your facial expressions, etc.  He is skilled in this, which is why he is the chief of the clan.  Think of him like the main character in the show Lie to Me.  It would be different if this were not part of a deal and he did not already have suspicions, but he is trying to cash in on a deal and make sure he doesn't get shortchanged.

In short, it is in his nature to distrust strangers regarding a deal.  In fact, he may disbelieve you even if you tell the complete truth.

And yes, you would get a roll if you were specifically looking for deceit and had any kind of skill in it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:21, Thu 14 July 2011.

Krugoth can be as suspicious as he wants, but that doesn't mean he has a chance to find out about things that aren't even the subject of the IC discussion right now. For instance, we found some valuable items on Aram's body in the caverns - but no one's talking about that right now, and I'm willing to bet no one was even thinking about it. I wasn't even thinking about it until this OOC discussion, and neither is Adaran. Adaran is still waiting for a reply to the two issues he raised, and is less focused on mentally running through the dozens upon dozens of items collected over the course of the adventure. So the only facial expressions he's realistically going to have right now are ones related to what he's currently thinking about. That's what I mean when I say Krugoth isn't psychic. Even the shrewdest merchant can't magically sense things that aren't even being thought about, much less discussed:

"You - you look like you're hiding something."
"Hiding something?"
"Yes. I can see it in your eyes."
"Hiding what?"
"You look like you know something you didn't tell me about."
"Hmm... Well, we ran into a purple worm in there that--"
"No, something else."
"Can you be more specific?"
"You found something, didn't you? Something you haven't revealed."
"Well, let's see... There was that magic chalk..."
"No, something valuable."
"Hmm... Oh wait, maybe Aram's necklace?"
"Aha! Hand it over."
"I completely forgot. Sorry."
"Now, what about the half-ogre's items?"
"How did you know about the half-ogre?"
"I saw it in your eyes."

Being suspicious is one thing, but there is really only so much you can read in a person's expressions. You can get the idea that they're being dishonest - if they're actually saying something or actively thinking about a hidden truth (shifty eyes, nervous fidgeting, etc) - or omitting something when answering a question, but it doesn't magically give you the power to sense anything and everything that you're presently unaware of. That requires a focused interrogation with pointed questioning, and again, needs some sort of discernable hint beforehand to give you an idea of what a person might be hiding from you. Merely distrusting someone is not enough of a lead to figure out what it is that they're hiding, or if they are in fact hiding anything at all.

I'm quite happy with skipping having to explain and detail every single item we got and just basically hand Krugoth a list of the stuff we found. Kahan knows he likely will consider anything found on this quest to be up for agreement and to be divvied up. The absolute last thing he wants to do is hide anything from him. I see no reason to argue this point anymore, as valid as it might be. I'm alright with glossing over the logistics.

However, if there's a 'next time' something like this occurs, I would like to be asked if it's alright to do this sort of thing again.

i need a magic long sword and i need to get my armor re-charged with magic (im almost 8th level and im wearing normal studded leather armor with no magical items or weapons), but im fine with getting two re-charge spells and foregoing the six weapon if i can get these other two items listed above.

since more than one of us needs the sceptre, borimer will be trying to make sure we get it for our 'artifact' choice. alternatively we can just not mention it and keep it.

i realize normally this should probably be done IC, but i wish to save time with postings and thought in this circumstance it may be better to just lay it out OOC

Umm am I in yet?

Yes.  Sorry, thought you were following the main thread.  Arthur Glade is sitting at the table next to Naj and Nimith.

Just OOC, for the record, I'm actually okay with altering our original deal and letting Krugoth get 100% of the temple's gold, as well as the temple's weapons (minus the six I'll be taking) - in exchange for his latest offer regarding restoring people's magic items and giving us the Portable Hole and 3 earthrocs. So that would be an acceptable bargain for me. I want Krugoth's forces to win the war against the orcs and don't want to short change his ability to supply his warriors and pay his allies. What is not acceptable to me is him getting all the other stuff we found - things that are neither gold, nor weapons, which have nothing to do with the war with the orcs (like, say, that magic priest incense and such things). Those are rightfully ours and should not be given to him. I say this so that Kahan knows where I (and Adaran) stand as far as what sort of final bargain I'm willing to make.

FYI, I am not talking about any past rolls.  I am giving you an indication of how things will play out if people try to deceive him and what the rolls might be like, and your characters will understand that he is suspicious by nature.

Anything you choose not to disclose to Krugoth will not be disclosed. I will not play him as knowing things you don't tell him (or, like here, will let you tell me you didn't disclose that to him).  The suspension of disbelief may be somewhat deferred, but this part of the adventure is not something I want overly extended.

My latest post is still assuming he knows of all the items we found. Kahan wouldn't bother hiding anything from him, and likely would point out politely anything anyone 'forgot' to tell him in the first place.

FYI, I did a count of all the magic items we have with us (both owned and unowned) that lost their magic:

Borimer: 9
Longsword +2
Studded Leather +2
Helm of Underwater Action
Ring of Invisibility, 15'
Ring of Time Control
Ring of Delusion
Ring of Meditation
Necklace of Rings and Keys
Gloves of Missile Snaring

Marcus: 3
Purifier +3 (corroded beyond repair)
Ring of Meditation
Magic Bag of Beans (6 beans remaining)

Draaz: 7
Cloak of Protection +3
Ring of Protection +1
Ring of Fireball (0/3 charges)
Ring of Meditation
Wand of Frost (0/7 charges)
Pearl of the Sirenes
Heward's Handy Haversack

Adaran: 2
Amulet of Protection
Cutlass +2

Kahan: 4
Mace +1 (+3 vs undead)
Mace of Disruption
Plate Mail +1
Ring of Meditation

Grizz: 3
Trident +?
Bracers of Defense +2
Ring of Meditation

Grung: 3
Battle Axe +?
Ring of Meditation
Cloak of Fire Resistance


As you can see, most of these items are unlikely to help us much in the battle with the orcs. So we're probably better off waiting until after the battle to get the non-combat magic items restored.

Grizz would want his bracers of defense and his original trident restored.  He doesn't care about the rest.

Wasn't Adaran's armor enchanted too? Or should I say, Aram's old armor? Although, I'm thinking he simply wasn't wearing any before we found Aram's corpse...

No. Aram's armor is normal, everyday leather. Prior to finding that, Adaran wore no armor. As for the Bracers of Defense, those don't technically belong to Grizz yet, though he could of course make it known that he wishes to claim them. And they were +2, not +3.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:05, Thu 14 July 2011.

Actually, my mace is only +2 vs Undead. When did we have a mace ID'ed as a Mace of Disruption? Was that the Jeweled Mace?

Yes, and that mace is superior to your own mace in every way. Maybe you could trade in your mace for that mace and get that one restored?

It's also prettier. ;)

What is Grung referring to?

Sorry,  if I remember correctly we each had an item that helped with healing.  I thought it was wrist bands, but was it the rings of meditation?  In any event we didn't have them long.  I think we got them from Aram?

the ring of fireballs is actually borimer's ring that he loaned to draaz, so i would like to get that back.

question for heath: would the dwarf chieftain's restorative magics restore the fireball ring with 3 charges?

Naturally, Borimer gets his ring back. The only question is if it's worth getting restored in place of something else, since it can only hold 3 charges anyway and that's not going to help us out a whole lot collectively. Something like the Ring of Invisibility that doesn't have finite charges would be more beneficial.

And Grung, yes, it's the Rings of Meditation you're thinking of - Azaron gave them to us and we all still have them, though everyone's except Adaran's lost its magic and Adaran's is inaccessible to him right now since it was stored in one of his magic sacks and those sacks were "closed" by the antimagic.

Oh before I forget:


Per our agreement, each of us is still owed the balance of our payment, which is 1,500 gold per person (2,000 minus the 500 advance Krugoth gave us previously). Also notice that Krugoth had said "give me only the weapons you find and half the gold". Funny how a dwarf's memory of a bargain can change over a few days' time, eh? ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 01:59, Fri 15 July 2011.

Part of Krugoth's "renegotiation" is that he will take all the gold and not give gold in return, including the Orc Drakmas other than the 500 already advanced.  (You can attempt to negotiate that issue if you want.)

Your point is well taken, but from Krugoth's perspective, you did not complete your side of the bargain by letting so much get destroyed, so he thinks he is doing you a great favor by giving you anything.  In fact, if he truly believes you have started the Kuvla Tah, he will think you should count yourselves lucky to walk away with your lives.

* * *

Recharging a magical item is different from rejuvenating an item that lost its magic:

1- Rejuvenation means the item will get back its magic AND get back all its charges.

2- Recharging an item means the item still retained its magic and just gets back its charges.

So recharging an item is a much lesser magic than rejuvenation.  If you only need recharging, bring it up to Krugoth as part of the negotiations.  If you ever want to use the item again and it lost its magic at the Temple, now is the only chance in the near future to have that done.

Not to metagame too much here, but in addition to allowing some non-combat negotiating and charisma skills to be used, one purpose of this negotiation with Krugoth is to simplify your arsenal of equipment into a smaller group of more potent items.  In other words, to give you a manageable equipment list but one that is better than you have now.

So if you have any ideas about doing that, Krugoth would listen.  We will pick up on Monday.  Try to have any final negotiating statements/ideas done by then, and we can move forward.  We are almost to our mass combat scenario, and then on to another adventure.

Fantastic. This just gets better and better. So we started this thing with a quest to get to the temple, without any obligations to Krugoth whatsoever. Then, as a "favor", he asks that we bring him half the temple's gold and its weapons while we're on our quest, in exchange for 2,000 gold each and the use of their earthrocs. So we agree to that. Now that has changed to him taking all the gold, all but a few weapons, paying us zilch, and requiring us to risk our lives yet again aiding his war effort. Am I the only one that thinks we've all been immensely cheated here? Seriously, what have we actually gained when all is said and done? A few of our nullified magic items restored to what they were before this whole debacle, a couple new weapons, a handful of non-combat magic items, the Portable Hole, and 3 earthrocs.

Meanwhile, we've lost both Marcus and Draaz, many of our magic items are still null, we've spent considerable amounts of gold on resources which have been depleted during this adventure, and now on top of all that, we're also obligated to fight as soldiers against the orcs. In what way is this supposed to be a fair deal? Since when does a party in an agreement get to say, "This didn't work out the way I hoped it would, so I'm altering the deal"? Half the gold means half the gold - it doesn't mean half the gold as long as there's as much gold as I expected, and all the gold if half isn't as much as I need. Likewise, agreeing to pay 2,000 gold to each person for their services means 2,000 gold each - it doesn't mean 2,000 gold as long as I have enough gold and zero gold if you don't bring back as much as I hope you will.

What we have here is a case of getting screwed over by the fine print - without the fine print.


I think this is the part where we give Borimer the all-clear to break his scrawny little neck. ;)

Arguing about it in the comment thread does you know good. If you want to bring it up, do what I said IC. Don't whine in the OOC thread (whether it's "whining" or "sharing your opinion", or what have you, it still doesn't belong here). Do something to fix it if it's such a big problem.

I think you need to stop lecturing me on what to do and what not to do. If you disagree with me, fine. But don't give me flak for voicing my opinion. I'm not the only one that feels like venting from time to time.

I never told you what to do; I was giving advice on how to fix the problem. I think you need to stop putting words in my mouth (or text box, as it were).

If that's not telling me what to do/not to do, I don't know what is.

It's not like you have to actually listen to me. I don't see why you're getting so upset, really. You've given me plenty of thinly veiled commands in this thread and most of them I've ignored.

But anyway, I think this discussion is pointless, and getting us nowhere. My sentiment still stands; if you want to do something about it, then bring it up to Krugoth, not to us, either here or to our group in character. Kahan will gladly let the gold go by the wayside if he thinks it will help the dwarves beat back the orcs. That is his top priority, not greed, not self-appreciation. Who knows, maybe when/if the dwarves win, we'll be able to get the rest of our money for doing the mission and/or helping them fight.

I get irritated because you never, ever stop with turning things into lectures and criticisms about me. I make a post about x topic and you start harassing me over something or other, whether my post was about rules changes, IC events, or whatever. I'm sick of it, and I want you to get off my back.

Obviously, I get just as irritated because you never, ever stop making OOC comments about things in game. You make a post about x rule change or how x party member is doing something you don't agree with, and I make a reply about how I disagree and want you to stop. I'm am equally as sick of your postings of rules changes, comments on IC events, or whatever, and I want you to stop posting them.

The difference is there is nothing wrong with proposing rules changes or discussing what's going on in the game - they're valid topics and belong in this thread - where as there is something wrong with you harassing me. I don't do that to you or anyone else. I want you to back off. If you want to discuss a topic that I'm discussing, that's one thing, but if you just want to hound me and give me flak, then keep it to yourself.

The Bag of Holding doesn't need opening. Maelarian was putting things in it and taking things out without problems, so I can only assume he already cast an Open Portable Hole spell on it before we encountered him.

Did we open... Darwen's? I thought there was another one that needed it.

Did we open Draaz's Haversack as well?

Draaz had a limited number of Open Portable Hole spells (3 copies), so the party agreed to him using one spell to reopen the Portable Hole, another to reopen Darwen's Bag of Holding, and he kept the third in his spellbook. So his haversack is still sealed.

Let me just say that I find this current roleplaying opportunity refreshing, and am in no particular hurry to get on with more fighting and action right now (so no rush as far as I'm concerned, Heath). We have had scarce opportunities for the party to interact on a more social level, and now that a couple new players are joining us, I think it would be a welcome respite for all of us to get acquainted during the dwarven feast. :)

That's what I was hoping.  There will be one more non-combat interaction before the battle.

I'm a little unclear - has Flint unsealed Adaran's cloak yet or is he still waiting to cast the spell?

Flint cast the spell

Character Statistics updated as of the current day:

Hit Points
Borimer:  70/70
Adaran:   48/48
Kahan:    63/63
Grizz:    66/66
Grung:    60/60
Naj:      ??/??
Nimith:   ??/??
Flint:    ??/??

Ammunition
Borimer: 10 sheaf arrows, 3 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Adaran:   5 sheaf arrows +1 (unclaimed), 10 flight arrows +1 (unclaimed)
Kahan:    6 sling bullets
Grizz:   20 sheaf arrows
Grung:   Hand axe
Naj:
Nimith:
Flint:   

Fired Shots
Borimer:  0
Adaran:   0
Kahan:    0
Grizz:    0
Grung:    0
Naj:      0
Nimith:   0
Flint:    0


As indicated, I'm not sure what Naj's, Nimith's, and Flint's HP totals are. I also don't know if they have any ammunition (arrows, bolts, etc). Marcus had a longbow and a quiver of sheaf arrows, while Draaz had a short bow and a quiver of flight arrows, so I suppose those go to Naj and Nimith now, respectively. Marcus also had Dornhoth's (de-magicked) Bag of Beans with 6 beans remaining. His Purifier sword is de-magicked and corroded beyond repair by acid.

So what do the magic wand and magic chalk do?  Trying to get ready for the big orc battle.  So how many are we facing and what type of terrain will we be on.

OOC: Oh.  Flint is a dart flinger and has 28 HP.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:27, Fri 22 July 2011.

The magic chalk is used for inscribing portal circles for teleportation spells. We haven't yet figured out what the three wands can do (Darwen had at least one wand and Maelarian had at least two). And there may well be other items contained in the two Bags of Holding (Darwen's and Maelarian's). No one has yet checked their contents. At the very least, I would expect we might find Darwen's and Maelarian's spellbooks, possibly some gold, perhaps some scrolls, and probably a number of miscellaneous traveling supplies.

Heath, which (if any) of Pamaran's suspects were present in Krugoth's audience chamber when we originally arrived at the compound with Azaron and informed Krugoth of our quest to find the Temple of Ashmere? I'm fairly certain Naj, Flint, and Arthure weren't there (even as NPC's). Was Nimith there?

None of them were actually present during that presentation, but it wasn't exactly a secret either.

I'm still working on getting the party's equipment list sorted out, but in the interest of time, these are the items formerly owned by Marcus and Draaz which will be transferred to Naj's and Nimith's possession, respectively:

Nice work.

Heath, what is the current date in terms of days remaining to return to Ailamere?

I think you may have it backwards... Is Pamaran giving Adaran misinformation or is that a DM mistake? :)

You're right.  My mistake.  No -- no purposeful misinformation there.

Heath, what is the current date in terms of days remaining to return to Ailamere?

37 Days to reach Ailamere.  (I was going to post it at the beginning of battle, which will be 36 days.  A key here is understanding that with the earthrocs, making that date won't be nearly as difficult as without them.)

would it be less difficult for borimer to crouch and use a bow, or try to use a sword?

Is Kahan wearing his armor and carrying his mace? I'm assuming that until he can get his armor restored, it's too cumbersome for him to wear?

No, he can wear it even if it's disenchanted, it just slows him down which is why he took it off. He likely wouldn't have bothered putting it back on though. His shield and mace, however, are still with him.

Okay, that's pretty much what I figured. Heath, what is the current time of day? Early evening?

Borimer:  He would suffer penalties with a sword because he would be reduced mostly to thrusting.  I'm not sure he has the room to use a bow because it is very cramped, with dwarf sized ceilings not even clearing Borimer's head and only 3 feet in width.  I'll allow it, but it will also be with modifiers.  (-5 for sword, -6 for bow.)

Adaran:  It is mid-afternoon.

Heath,

Have you thought on how to handle arm wrestling?  I was thinking since we start at 12 o'clock each win would move one "hour" in one direction or the other.  I was thinking you'd roll a dice, not sure what to use, and add str bonus (to hit? damage?)  Once the combatants reach either 9 or 3 o'clock the contest is over.

Con should be involved too but I'm not sure how.  Perhaps you wrestle for a number of turns equal to your con ability before applying some penalty?

I had thought of just doing a strength contest, but I'm certainly open to more intriguing methods.

someone with a higher charisma should also speak on our behalf :)

Ohhh great, a guy comes with his hands raised in motion of peace.  What is the others reaction.  "Lets shoot him."

You know this reminds me of a comic I once read about role players.  I think it was called, "Knights of the kitchen table".  At any rate one of the characters would say, "Why do we not just talk to the orcs."  All the other players would scoff at that player.  Now I know why.

On a side note, dealing with the results on our characters.  If that is with passing our saving throws.  I hate to seen what would have happen to our characters if we failed them.

Knights of the Dinner Table was a great comic.

The situation here, though, is that you broke through their locks, sneaked up behind them, and then claim peace as you move toward them past their valuables.  There is another reason Arthure's gesture didn't work, which will be clear soon.

Locks? Sneaking?? Valuables??? Heath, I think there must be some mistake. You've put me in the wrong group! ;)

I did not choose the groups...

That said, Borimer might have wished to go in the group with the arm wrestling competition...

It is 8d4 damage with a failed saving throw.  It is a type of harnessed sun energy turned into a lightning bolt-like strike.

I know, I was just joking. :) Hopefully there will be other opportunities to open locks, sneak around, and...uh...pass by valuables...

My idea is a str contest, but you need to win three more than your opponent to pin your opponent.

Just FYI for Heath, I'm currently waiting on Kahan's post.

Funny you brought it up because I totally thought you were going to run off to join Borimer's group instead of talking to Pamaran.

That was actually my original plan, but my interactions with Pamaran changed that slightly. ;)

How do I roll the str check for the arm wrestling?

With dice. ;) Sorry, couldn't resist.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:55, Wed 10 Aug 2011.

Roll 1d20+6.  This accounts for the percentile of strength levels.

You can roll up to 3 times.  Please post in your post the order of the rolls.  I will roll for the NPC and we will compare successes.  Polyanthar's bodyguard is as about as strong as they get for a dwarf and gets 1d20+3 for each of his rolls.

PM

The bonus is +1 for each level of the strength scale to take into account the percentages (which is a flawed system, in my view, but that's what we have to work with).  So it is +6.

Here is how it works out for the roll bonuses:

17	 +0
18	 +0
18/01-50 +1
18/51-75 +2
18/76-90 +3
18/91-99 +4
18/00	 +5
19	 +6

His bodyguard has a strength of 18/85, so he gets a +3 to his rolls.

Sorry, I'm getting my rules mixed up.  I was thinking in terms of 3.5 rules for the wrestling rolls.  :)

That was my fault for being unclear.

The number was to be added to your strength score for what you have to roll below, not added to your roll.

But that would mean Grung and the dwarf would actually both have equal odds, since a d20 only goes up to 20, right? Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the bonuses as negative modifiers to their rolls?

Actually, the strength contest is by comparing how much they made the roll by, not the actual roll.  This means that Grung has an even greater chance (i.e., range) of success because the rolls cannot go above 20, so even a roll of 20 means he makes his roll by a greater percentage than the dwarf rolling a 20.  (Though that's a bad example because that's a critical failure in any case.)

The arm wrestling contest ended anyway.  Grung won through a critical failure of the dwarf and a critical success by Grung.

So Grung broke the dwarf's arm?

Wow. That's a powerful combo...

That would have been funny, but no.

I do not have access to my ad&d book. could someone tell me if a 7th level druid has access to reincarnate?

Yep, Reincarnate is a 7th level Druid Spell

AHh okay so it was in 3rd edition when they made it lower level.

Does Naj, Grizz or myself recall seeing this tattoo on Polyanthar?

See message 24 at link to a message in this game

That lists everything you saw.

Yeah, I saw already that he had "dragons, horses, skulls, and serpents".  So I assume we did not see Tarimar's tattoo.

That's your assumption, but I was hoping to keep that IC.

Excuse my ignorance, but what do we know about this necklace Anlisade wants to give us? I would ask IC, but I have a feeling I'm supposed to already know IC.

Actually, you don't know anything more than Pamaran has told you.

Just FYI for Heath and those at Anlisade's place, Adaran has a couple important things to discuss with the group before heading back to Krugoth's palace, and some questions for Anlisade as well, so please don't move us ahead yet. Apologies to Grung and Naj for the delay, but these issues could affect a lot of what happens later (including any conversations at Krugoth's feast). I'll post as soon as I have a chance.

Okay, I'll create a new private thread.

It can stay public, no reason to keep the others from reading it - it's just taking place elsewhere from them is all.

Just checking - is this Flint's way of indicating that he has no lie-detector type spells?

nope sorry, flint has no truth spell at his disposal

Has Kahan had the chance to rest before where we are right now? Because I could save a use of Raise Dead if that's the case, seeing as how I now have one 'free' use of it.

Yes, the party had a good night's rest.

This might be nitpicking, but it was Kahan who asked about regrets, not Flint.

Edited.  My mistake.

What were the results of Flint's identification on the necklace?

Is Flint casting detect magic or Identify?  Those are two different spells.

The reason I ask is that detect magic is automatic and does not take up a spell (essentially, a level 0 spell in our house rules).

Identify is a totally different matter and takes 8 hours of preparation, as follows:

Detect Magic first,  wouldn't make much sense to cast an identify spel first

It does radiate as magic.

Before Identifying the item, Flint will ask if someone could determine the alignment of the item.  (Meaning is it good, bad, or neutral)

Anyone up to the task?

Items have alignments?

Would a person (either PC or NPC) have to succeed in some sort of dice roll to lie convincingly? What I'm getting at is, I would think that one person attempting to discern whether another is lying would boil down to some sort of opposed roll rather than just one person rolling. Because there are two factors involved - how skilled one is at staying poker-faced and how skilled the other is at picking up on telltale clues. If only the observer has to succeed at dice rolls, then the liar basically always has the advantage, which I don't think would make sense.

That makes sense, but I don't know if there's a rule about it.

in 3/3.5 its bluff vs sense motive, or cha vs wis. --- if that helps in your judgement.

personally i like the cha vs wis, makes sense for a "bluff" situation

I agree.


No one has actually told Pamaran that Nimith has the tattoo yet, so Pamaran should not know this.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:54, Sun 28 Aug 2011.

I also agree.  Sounds reasonable if used.

Thanks for again pointing out that I read too much into Kahan's post than was actually there.  :)

But for the sake of keeping things straight, since Kahan miserably failed his charisma check, the penalty is he let it "slip" that Nimith has the tattoo.

How do we roleplay this exactly? Should our characters behave as though Pamaran knowing of Nimith's tattoo is explainable due to Kahan's failure to convince him that Nimith isn't the traitor? Should we be surprised that Pamaran knows about his tattoo? Suspicious? Or should we play it as though Kahan literally told Pamaran about Nimith's tattoo?

It's just an extra comment made by Kahan through the die roll rather than expressly -- literally.  I'll add in the comment if that makes you feel better.

That's not necessary. I just needed to clarify whether we should be suspicious of Pamaran knowing this or not.

No, it was just an error.

Would any of us have any reason to think that acidic burns are normal injuries from battling orcs? Is there any standard/widely known orc weapon of war that utilizes acid?

No.  I'm wondering myself where Kahan is going with this...

I thought he might have been lying. Apparently I was wrong, at least somewhat. Did Pamaran object to me unwinding the bandages on his back?

He did not object, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary on his back.

Although, if all the skin on his back was burnt off... then the tattoo likely wouldn't be visible, correct?

Note that Pamaran's head is also bandaged.

There are no burns on his back, only on his arm.

Just FYI, Anlisade didn't say that Pamaran gave him the necklace - he said he and his sons found it. Polyanthar's brooch is the one Pamaran said Polyanthar was claiming he got from him. I think I might have confused you earlier when Adaran went out on a limb and told Anlisade that Pamaran had claimed he lied about getting the necklace from him (which wasn't true), in order to see if that was in fact where Anlisade got it. However, it turns out that Pamaran might indeed have gambled away the brooch that Polyanthar acquired, since according to Anlisade, Pamaran has been known to gamble.

Oh, well... whoops.

Nothing says Kahan himself can't get confused about it though, so it's all good. :)

I'm getting my battle axe (formerly +2) restored.  Are we getting more than one item restored?  I recall asking for the healing bands, but it's been a bit and mind is forgetful.  Kid's will do that to you.  :)  If we can a second item I would prefer to get a pair of bands.

I'd prefer to ask in game, but I figured I'd ask here, would it be a good idea for Grung to borrow Adaran's mask and pretend to be an orc in the battle ahead?  Would it provide any benefit?  I ask as I could probably pull off pretending to be orcish as I'm half-orc and should be able to pass an orcish smell test (they have sensitive noses).  I could then try to lay a trap of some sort or misdirect them somehow.  I'm not sure how the battle is going to unfold or if we use mass combat how that will work.  So it's unclear to me if this idea is worth pursuing.

Thoughts?

As others pointed out back in the temple of Ashmere when Adaran had ideas about using the mask in this way, there are considerable risks involved with this tactic - in particular, the inability of allies (i.e. the rest of us) to distinguish between Grung and the enemy once he disguises himself to look like an orc. And in fact, this will be a much greater danger now than it would have been back in the temple, since among other advantages, in the temple we faced at most a handful of dwarves at a time and only had to worry about our own characters attacking the would-be undercover saboteur, where as in this coming battle we're going to be besieged by literally hordes of orcs, and Grung could very likely be attacked by friendly fire - if not by our characters, then by the scores of allied troops fending off the orcs' attack who would have no idea that one of those orcs is in fact an ally in disguise.

Also, Grung (being a fighter) is far more formidable as a warrior in the thick of battle than he would be as an undercover spy, since he lacks stealth-oriented skills that could very likely become necessary during such an infiltration. Looking convincing as a generic orc troop is only part of the challenge - he still would have to physically infiltrate the orcs' armies (i.e. get from our lines to theirs without being noticed), and could quite possibly find himself in situations where he's forced to interact with other orc soldiers, make up convincing cover stories on the fly, think on his feet, and succeed at various other challenges that require a decent amount of charisma, intelligence, and wisdom - which I believe are actually Grung's weakest qualities.

I am sure the mask will become useful at some point, but I don't think that point has arrived yet in the story.

its been a while, what did the deal for recharged items end up being? i think borimer was to receive 2 (or 3) items recharged, but i could be wrong and overly optimistic

I asked the same question.  I'm pretty sure I'll be getting my battle axe +2 back but am unsure if I'm getting anything else.  I'd like to get the healing bands if I can.

The deal was any combination of magic weapons and/or restorations totaling 12 - though the deal is officially between Krugoth and Borimer, Adaran, and Kahan. Krugoth does not consider Grizz or Grung to have any say in the matter.

Previously, we agreed as a group that Borimer would get his armor and sword restored (2 items), Adaran would get his cutlass restored and take a magic short bow (2 items), Kahan would get his armor restored and possibly trade in his mace for the jeweled mace and get that mace restored (2 items), Grizz would get his trident restored and we would also restore the Bracers of Defense +2 which he had been wearing (2 items), and Grung would get his battle axe restored (1 item).

That's 9 out of 12 items. Borimer, Adaran, and Kahan agreed that the remaining items should be ones that could conceivably benefit more than one person in the group. Adaran wants to take the magic arrows for the group's collective use. Kahan suggested getting Borimer's invisibility ring restored, since it could potentially benefit anyone (though it still belongs to Borimer), and Adaran agreed. So if we get Borimer's ring restored and take the magic arrows, that leaves one item/restoration.

Some potentially good canditates:

- restore Draaz's Wand of Frost (and let Flint use it)
- restore the Gloves of Missile Snaring
- restore the Cloak of Fire Resistance
- restore the Cloak of Protection +3
- restore Borimer's Ring of Delusion
- restore Bernard's +1 flight arrows (they became +1 when we freed Bernard's spirit)

Borimer's Ring of Fireball could be another candidate but it only stores 3 charges. He also has the Ring of Protection +1 but if we were to go that route, the Cloak of Protection +3 is probably a better idea. There are of course other items that lost their magic, but these came to mind as being the most useful.

Did I ever go through that Bag of Holding we found?

Ah good thinking. No, you never did. And in fact, there are two Bags of Holding we haven't rummaged through yet - Darwen's and Maelarian's. Darwen's contains Darwen's wand (and possibly other things) and Maelarian's contains at least two wands.

A reminder to everyone - Ashe told us this:


So Ashe said we had 60 days (now 59 days), and Krugoth's counselors say 30 days. Heath, was it supposed to be 30 days or are Ashe and Krugoth's counselors actually contradicting each other?

i think the wand of frost and the cloak of prot, or the want of frost and the ring of fireball would give us the most damage potential for the upcoming battle, but i'll go with whatever everyone decides (besides boriemr's leather armor and +2 longsowrd)

The truth is somewhere between 30 and 60 days.  Do you really think prophecies will be precise?  :)

I was just making sure it wasn't an error. :)

Is Adaran correct in saying we still have the Eye of the World? I thought Ashe used it to open the altar so that we could access the box holding Augmantium? I don't see anywhere that it says we got it back afterwards.

Adaran took it back (msg #4 in "Temple of Ashmere 30 - The Escape"):


This message was last edited by the player at 06:49, Wed 07 Sept 2011.

Borimer and Kahan, we need to decide on the 3 remaining magic items we'll choose. Are we agreed on the magic arrows and Borimer's invisibility ring at least? Kahan, what's your vote for the third item? My vote would be the Wand of Frost for Flint. If you guys would rather restore the Cloak of Protection +3 than Borimer's ring (probably also for Flint) then I'm fine with that, although the invisibility ring could certainly come in handy for repeated backstabbing.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:11, Wed 07 Sept 2011.

if flint were to get a vote it would be for the frost wand.  Area of effect spell for battles  :D


Please tell me that they are having to charge up hill to us.

i'm fine with whichever items are chosen

I'll make my mind up once we find out what's in the bags of holding. If there's another AoE item in them, then we won't need the wand of frost recharged, and we could do something else instead.

A good alternative would probably be restoring the Cloak of Protection +3 for Flint. I believe he's the most vulnerable person in the group (Borimer has his Studded Leather +2, Kahan has his Plate Mail +1, Grizz is wearing the Bracers of Defense +2, and Grung has the half-ogre's Splint Mail +1), and if Darwen's rod and Maelarian's 2 (or more) wands will suffice, then he really doesn't need the Wand of Frost for this battle.

That reminds me - we still haven't identified the half-ogre's magic bracers, fine fur leg linings, small vial of balm, and dagger. We should do that ASAP.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:58, Thu 08 Sept 2011.

Heath, I'm just waiting on Grizz's reply.

If you're talking about the traps, Grizz can't answer that question until you have a map of the area.  Then he could set up traps in the areas of your choosing.

Okay, Adaran was merely asking if he could set up traps period. :)

Yes, and he bought some traps at the market too.

Is that really practical, trying to shoot an earthroc down with barrages of arrows from the ground? Surely that bird is over a thousand feet up in the air? With the arrows' flight arc, this seems highly implausible. Not to mention the huge delay between firing and the arrows closing in to their target would give both the earthroc and its rider so much advance warning that they'd evade the arrows' flight paths long, long before they even got anywhere near them. I mean, don't these birds fly miles above the ground?

Can you realistically figure out what's going on from miles above the ground? Assuming they aren't using a tarp to cover themselves to begin with... Not to mention the temperature of the air that high up would freeze you and the earthroc most likely, if you were 'miles' up, since every 1000 feet makes the air decrease roughly 6 degrees Celsius.

You're right though, arrows would most likely be a none-issue if you were high up. I'm pretty sure arrows wouldn't work at any higher than maybe 500' tops.

I'm pretty sure one could spot armies and war machines very clearly from that height. From experiences looking out of plane windows at the ground from thousands of feet up, I know that things like cars and crowds are easily distinguishable from that distance. And I wasn't even imagining the earthrocs flying several thousand feet up - more like half a mile or so. So when flying that low, things are going to be very distinguishable.


Yes, but you'd still see the tarp right? That alone would tell you where they are, and in what direction they're moving. You just wouldn't know how many are under the tarp.


True, and I wasn't really thinking of trying to do this from several miles up - just saying that I was under the impression that earthrocs can fly that high if necessary, so 1,000 - 2,500 feet should be a piece of cake for them.


Friends of mine who are skilled archers have told me that their maximum effective range is really about 30-40 yards at best. And of course, that's shooting horizontally, not straight up into the sky, which is probably a lot more difficult.

One other thing springs to mind... If an army of orcs are covered with a tarp that conceals them from anyone looking down from above, they cannot also fire arrows into the sky.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:04, Tue 20 Sept 2011.

I never said they'd be very accurate, but with thousands of inhumanly-strong orcs, who I can only imagine have specially made composite bows, I could imagine that they would get at least 400 feet of range. The average bow can shoot about 150 yards; not accurately, mind you, but that's 'functional' range as it were. Figuring in higher-than-human strength (I bet more than a few of those orcs have 19 strength), I could see getting much further than 35 yards. If you were spying on a single orc, then yes, the likelihood of getting shot at much more than 100 yards is incredibly unlikely unless you're there for hours.


About the tarp, I think it would be somewhat funny if it was a magic tarp that blended in with the surroundings... I wouldn't be surprised if Tarimar made something like that for them. ;)

For the orcs?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:21, Tue 20 Sept 2011.

He might have simply because he wants the dwarves to die. What better way to kill your enemy, than to help theirs? The enemy of your enemy is your friend... even if he wants them dead, too. Frien-emy? ;)

Adaran once suspected that Tarimar might have been working with the orcs, but now it seems likely that the orcs are Tarimar's sworn enemies. I suppose it's a remote possibility, but still I don't think it's likely.

I see your point with the orcs' inhuman strength and specially made composite bows, but even so, I think we agree those arrow barrages are not going to reach anything flying at 1,000+ feet. And that's assuming they're shooting through a semi-transparent tarp above their heads.

Are you expecting the orcs to be smart?  :)  I had thought of this.  It was meant as a distraction to discourage them; no earthrocs had actually been shot down, but neither will they fly too close.

I think you're making this too complicated.  The orcs are essentially besieging the compound.  They're all around.  They are not hiding their numbers per se, but they are hiding exact counts and other things beneath tarps and canvases.  So they are not all hiding under the tarps.  They just have tarps spread around like tents that cover...things.  We're talking about an army of a size larger than 10,000 staked out in all directions.

And you have to remember that you are high up in the mountains in the cold northern region.  The dwarves do not know if there are spies in the mountains or other hazards, and it is really cold.  The earthrocs are very precious to the dwarves because of their utility.

I see. I wasn't aware that the orcs already had us surrounded. That basically makes the whole thing moot, since the question now is not whether they'll attack from multiple sides, but how much of their forces will be split between east, north, and west. And that's something we apparently can't determine, due to the tarps. Unfortunately, this severely limits our ability to strategize. It basically just comes down to "set traps everywhere possible and defend all fronts as best we can", which isn't much of a strategy.

Yes, that's the situation.

The strategy will in part depend on movement of your forces and how you place them (north or east).  You will also have to strategize about using the earthrocs and war machines, which are at more risk toward the north than east due to the mountainous slopes.

Heath, are you going to be filling in for Arthure during this strategizing? I think his abilities could make a significant difference in our planning. I know that Borimer, Grizz and Grung are primarily fighters whose abilities are more geared toward direct combat than strategizing (with the exception of Grizz's trap-setting skills), but Adaran, Kahan, Flint, Naj and Arthure probably each have special abilities that they can contribute toward a strategic defense plan.

I hadn't considered that.

The ultimate strategy plan is that I will be giving each of you a "group" of people to control, and Arthure is one of those.  I may remove him from the game and power down the opposition to account for that since it will just be more complicated for me.

Yeah, I think that's what I'll do.

What was he, again? A ranger?

Yes, and I had been excited to finally get a ranger in the group too!

Well I could always make one if you're that bummed out? :P


I've never actually played a 2nd edition Ranger before, now that I think about it.

I allow players to change characters if they want to, particularly because of the slow rate of play of these types of games, but I want you to have the character you want to have--and no one would argue that we don't need a cleric!  :)

Oh, I never said anything about giving up Kahan. I was more jokingly suggesting you let me play two people.

Heath, what if you let Grizz fade into the background so to speak (since we already have Borimer and Grung as fighters, and a 3rd fighter as an NPC is somewhat redundant), and instead make Arthure a more important part of the group as an NPC, until such time as his player returns or someone else decides to play him? That way you won't be dividing your NPC-roleplaying attention any more than you are now, we'll have a unique and useful character type in the group, and if Arthure's player returns someday, his PC will already be with us ready to be taken back. Wouldn't that be better than keeping Grizz?

we lost grizz?

Grizz is and has been an NPC.

lol how long?

Since we first found him in the caverns. I thought you knew that lol.

Really? That's... wow. I can't believe I didn't notice that sooner. I knew Nimith was because one of his posts in our private thread was accidentally posted as Heath, but Grizz?

Thanks for spoiling that, Adaran.  :)

For Kahan:
Grizz was played by...I think it was Doulos in ASWoT...but he left awhile back.  I liked the fisherman idea and decided to bring him back as an NPC to move the party along at slow points.  Fighters are very easy to NPC because you don't have to worry about spells and things.

There are typically 2 characters who are NPCs at any given time and whom I try to keep at least somewhat secret, even if that includes posting like I am a player.  Right now, there are 3, including Grizz, which is why I probably will not use Arthure as an NPC, especially because now everyone would know.

I sincerely apologize. I really thought everyone had become aware of Grizz being an NPC after you revealed it OOC a while back, but I guess at least a couple players didn't read that post:



But we also know about Grizz, so doesn't that make that a moot issue? Personally, I think Arthure would add more to the game at this stage than Grizz.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:49, Thu 22 Sept 2011.

Oh, I do remember reading that. I just assumed that it was, in fact, temporary, and that at some point, the player had taken him back over.

I think over time my memory of Heath's wording got a little blurred and I forgot that he had said "temporarily", so I began thinking everyone knew Grizz was an NPC. In other words, I stopped separating my own knowledge from my perception of everyone else's knowledge because I started thinking everyone else knew what I did. Sorry guys.

That was what I had intended everyone to think.  I might still see if someone else is interested.  He's a simple character to handle.

Grizz was meant to die somewhere in the last battle or escape from the island, but I let the game flow naturally, and he survived.  So now I have come to think of different fitting ends for Grizz.  He may die in the upcoming battle...or not...but I'm not going to fudge the rolls for that.

Since his character is not afraid of jumping into danger (much like a kender), it would be in character for him to take chances.

So does this mean Arthure might just as easily survive and stay with us as Grizz might perish? Or is Arthure out regardless?

noooo, dont kill poor grizz! ;)

I will probably do an ad for players to take over one or the other.  Whoever gets their character taken over lives.  :)

That's how Marcus survived for so long.

That sounds like a good idea. :) That way you won't have to NPC either one, regardless of what happens.

Because things are going crazy for me right now, can you please make a list of anything you are waiting on me for (answers, etc.)?  Besides the map to begin the last battle, of course.

But please be completely ready.  Once it gets started, it will be intense and in waves, like the battle in the temple, but not quite as bad.

Still waiting on the contents of the bags of holding. :)

We're also waiting on the results of Flint's identifications of magic items. I'm not sure how many he's able to identify, but we've got quite a few:

Half-ogre's dagger
Half-ogre's bracers
Half-ogre's fine fur leg linings
Half-ogre's balm
Anlisade's necklace
Polyanthar's brooch
Darwen's rod
Maelarian's 2 wands

...and possibly others, depending on what Kahan finds in the 2 Bags of Holding.

There isn't a final list yet because no one has actually declared what all they're claiming yet. We all seem to be waiting on the identifications of the unidentified magic items before anyone is willing to assert final claim to anything.

Borimer and Kahan also have yet to state whether they agree to allow Grizz an equal share of the 12 restorations (i.e. each of the four of us getting 3), so that affects the results too.

We also don't know what's in the 2 Bags of Holding - we're waiting on you for that. We don't know how many magic rods/wands there are between Darwen's and Maelarian's belongings, nor what each can do. These factors could change everyone's decisions.

Basically the only things we have divvied up thus far are the pre-inner sanctum items (the stuff Borimer, Adaran, Kahan, and Grizz acquired together). Nothing else has been resolved or agreed upon.

I know I want my Mace and my plate mail restored... but that's all I know. I would be willing to give up a restoration for Grung's axe and Grizz's Bracers, if you all feel that would help even out the magic item claims, since I get no real benefit from half of my restorations (other than the thanks and perhaps slight boons from Grung and Grizz). ;)

Kahan, I'm still waiting to hear whether you agree to Grizz getting an equal share of the 12 restorations.

im fine with grizz getting a restoration from each of us. i don't know what i want to use for two of my three yet (only the sword seems to be a sure thing at this point)

Aren't you restoring your Studded Leather +2?

Borimer and I agree to give Grizz an equal share of the 12 restorations (meaning the four of us would each get 3). Kahan, we just need your agreement to this. I assume this is fine with you since you said you'd be willing to give up one of your restorations for Grizz anyhow, but note that this would actually be Grizz's fair entitlement rather than something we're giving him in return for something from him.

As long as I still don't have to put up half of my restorations to make the magical item sharing more equal. I said before that I only need two; if I get less than two, then I will complain (only mildly so though; I'm only really losing a +1 bonus to my plate mail).

The only reason you might need to give up some of your own restoration slots would be if you intend to claim more magic items for yourself than the rest of us are getting (for example, if you want to claim one or two of Darwen's and/or Maelarian's rods/wands in addition to your other claims). If you don't, then that becomes unnecessary because right now it's possible for us to divide the current list of magic items evenly. I think you totally misunderstood what I was proposing before.

Anyhow, we're all agreed on giving Grizz an equal share of the 12 restorations/temple's magic weapons now. So Borimer, Adaran, Kahan, and Grizz each get 3. Now we just need to identify the unidentified magic items and decide on each of our claims.

See identifications below:
<green>
Half-ogre's dagger:  Dagger +1.
Half-ogre's bracers:  Bracers +1
Half-ogre's fine fur leg linings  Protect against cold/but twice the damage from fire
Half-ogre's balm balm of healing.  Place on wound and will heal that wound completely (or 3d4 dmg, at player's choice or if player doesn't remember the wound dmg amount).
Anlisade's necklace (being investigated still)
Polyanthar's brooch (being investigated still)
Darwen's rod (see below)
Maelarian's 2 wands (see below)

Battle Axe: +1
Splint Mail: +1
Boots: Boots of the north (I think you already identified these)

Bags of Holding (DARWEN):

Darwen's Rod:
-Rod of Absorption (cleric or mage) (see below)
Book about rod of absorption
3 days food
7 days water
Hammer (for mining and minerals)
10 platinum coins of some foreign place you've never seen before
3 agates
A round object wrapped in paper with the words "Eye of the Beholder" written on the paper
1 dagger (finely crafted but non-magical)

-Rod of Spellthrowing (Cleric) (See below)

Maelarean's Satchel (Bag of Holding):
-Wand of Paralyzation (see below) (4 charges left)
-Wand of invisibility, 10' radius (2 charges left)
-Wizard scroll with these spells:
1) Monster Summoning 3
2) Wall of force
3) Evard's black tentacles
4) Knock
5) Fireball
5 days water
3 days food
8 platinum coins from a strange land you don't recognize
2 purple gems (type unknown)
5 Binding kits (These are like first aid kits.  The heal 1d4 dmg (+1 with healing skill) and can stop up to serious bleeding.
1 50 foot silk rope
2 bear traps (clawed)


ROD OF ABSORPTION (original)

This is a 3 foot long rod with a scabbard-like loop for holding it on a belt.  A Rod of Spellthrowing is a powerful magical rod.

Regarding the Rod of Absorption, here is what Kahzir told you:

quote:

Kahzir takes a seat to rest his pained head.  "That rod is a special type of Rod of Absorption.  It has spells cast into it by mages or priests, and it can be used by either mages or priests, regardless of the spell put inside it.  It is activated by a series of maneuvers like a conductor conducting an orchestra.  Depending on the movements of the hand, one of the spells will be released.  Besides being purely a simple wrist action, this allows the caster to cast a spell himself, or take some other action, even while using the rod."  (I.e., this gives an extra attack for the user in the round.)  "Its ability feeds on the will of the user, such that other spells requiring gestures only require the spoken words and the will of the user."

He laughs.  "The key is knowing how to use it to release the spells.  Darwen has a book on him that details the movements for each spell.  However, once the spell is gone from the rod, it has to be put back in.  Otherwise, you'll just be shaking a stick and nothing will happen."  (The rod requires you to either memorize the hand action -- by substituting any level spell for the day (memorized or prayed for) to instead memorize the routine -- or by holding the book and following its diagrams.  The latter requires concentration and will negate the extra attack otherwise gained.

The book in Darwen's bag of holding describes each action.  The rod holds up to 10 spells.

OOC: You remember Darwen used it for:
Teleportation
Cure critical wounds
Walk on air
Improved invisibility
magic missiles

Therefore, it still has six spells in it.  The problem is that, if you want to put your own spells in it, you will negate the spells that Darwen put in if you don't use the empty slots.  You just don't know which 5 slots are empty and what spells Darwen has in the other 5!  They could be powerful...or not.


OOC: Darwen was a higher level cleric than Kahan, so likely he keeps powerful spells inside.  This gives you a choice of taking chances for fun or just putting all your own spells in there.  The battle will give a good shot at trying it out.

Wand of Paralyzation: This wand shoots forth a thin ray of bluish color to a maximum range of 60 feet. Any creature touched by the ray must roll successful saving throw vs. wand or be rendered rigidly immobile for 5d4 rounds. A save indicates the ray missed, and there is no effect. As soon as the ray touches one creature, it stops—the wand can attack only one target per round. The wand has an initiative modifier of +3 , and each use costs one charge. The wand may operate once per round. It may be recharged.

What do Bracers +1 do?

They lower your armor class by 1 point.

The general rule is that bracers are an "arm slot."  This means that only the magic of the bracers or a shield (or other arm slot item) may be used.  So if you use magic bracers and a magic shield, only the magic of the item you wield first will count, and the other item will be mundane.

This is why bracers are a good choice for those who cannot or choose not to use shields, like mages.

Grung doesn't use a shield.  Would bracers +1 work with non magic plate mail?  With magic armor?  He could use either his plate mail or splint +1.

I don't think magical bracers can be worn with anything that already covers your arms, whether it's magical or not. I assume that plate mail includes vambraces and gauntlets already. But of course, the half-ogre was wearing both the Splint mail +1 and the Bracers +1 so maybe the half-ogre's splint mail doesn't cover the arms? At any rate, this kind of item would seem to make better sense for someone who, as Heath said, cannot wear heavy armor or use a shield - like a Wizard or Rogue.

I'm not sure if Borimer's Studded leather +2 includes bracers or not, but Borimer uses a shield. I know that the leather armor Adaran is wearing is just a cuirass, and being a Rogue, he can't use a shield. Kahan's Plate mail +1 would certainly cover the arms, plus he uses a shield. Grizz never wears armor or uses a shield but he's wearing the Bracers of Defense +2, so he can't use them.

The overriding factor that would determine who can claim them, though, is the total number of magic items each person is entitled to. We need to divvy up the stuff in the temple's inner sanctum between Borimer, Adaran, Kahan, and Grizz before moving on to the things that Grung helped us acquire (which includes Peglar's items, the half-ogre's items, Darwen's items, the dwarven explorer's items, and Maelarian's items).


Heath, did the party retrieve Maelarian's dwarves' crossbows and poisoned bolts before escaping the island - and if so, are they magical?
This message was last edited by the player at 21:46, Sat 01 Oct 2011.

If the bracers can be used in place of a shield, I don't see why they wouldn't work if you were wearing (most) armor.

It would depend on whether the armor covers your arms or not.

heath, are you allowing cloaks to be worn over armor?

It may not make 100% sense, but the rule is that anything that takes an "arm slot" may only be used for 1 magical item.

This includes shields and bracers, but does not include other armor.  (If you find a rule that says otherwise, let me know, but this is how the 4th edition works and the videogames going back to Pool of Radiance (which is 2nd edition), if I remember correctly.)

* * *

Yes, if you want the stuff from Maelarean's dwarves, you can have them.  None are magical.

Yes, but I believe the rule is that you only get the magical benefit from the first item that is put on (which naturally is the armor in that case).

HOUSE RULE:  Let me add that a relic/artifact would not be subject to these restrictions under normal conditions and can be added to any other magical bonus.  Some items also have specific exclusions listed in the rules.

Currently, you are aware that your group has 3 relics:  Augmantium the golden statuette dragon, the Sceptre Shi'iki, and the Dagger Ikishi.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:39, Mon 03 Oct 2011.

I think Heath means Augmantium, not Ailamere. Also, Heath, the ceremonial dagger we have is supposedly a fake, not the real Dagger Ikishi.

what about other cloaks though? such as a cloak of fire resistance for example?

I fixed it to Augmantium (I should have remembered that since I used "Au" the periodic symbol for gold)

The symbolic dagger was the one found in the main temple chamber and was a fake because it did not work in the ceremony there on the "being" that later became Borimer's sword.  The Ikishi Dagger is the one found inside the pillar after solving the Allevian riddle code.  (Unless I'm so backwards in my facts now that I'm completely messing it up...)

I suppose maybe one cloak can be used with armor.  I'm open to that.

Heath, the dagger we obtained from the pillar was used to open the door from the bone room to the corridor leading to the inner sanctum. We were never able to retrieve it.

I had forgotten that...so I guess you don't have that artifact anymore.

I must say, you have an uncanny memory of all that happened.  Mine gets clouded with too much going on.

I actually have a partially photographic memory as it happens. It serves for both written material and visualized images/events (including those that took place only in the imagination). It does occasionally have its practical uses. ;)

Okay, so we appear to have 2 wands of normal power (roughly on par with Draaz's Wand of Frost) and 2 rods of UBER power. Heath, you described what the Rod of Absorption can do, what about the Rod of Spellthrowing? And am I right in classifying these items as "major magical items" - powerful devices superior to the other sorts of magical items we've obtained? Would these even be considered above the level of our character-creation magic items like +2 weapons, Adaran's cloak, etc?

Sorry, the rod of spellthrowing is an error.  You don't have that rod...yet.

These are normal magic items.  They are just of my own creation.

Heath, is Draaz's Heward's Handy Haversack a major magic item, i.e. equivalent to 2 lesser magic items (like Adaran's cloak or Kahan's Mace +1 and Plate mail +1)? As I recall, it's superior to a Bag of Holding - am I right?

I'm pretty sure the only difference is that you can automatically find anything inside a Handy Haversack; and it might contain smaller Bags of Holding (in pockets and such).

It would work in our favor if it's a major magic item, because that would bring the remaining magic items up to a total of 20, which is equally divisible by 5 (Borimer, Adaran, Kahan, Grizz, Grung).

heath, is the cloak of fire resistance similar in ability to the ring of the same name?

Yes.

I don't really classify things as major or not.  The value is up to you guys to figure out based on what it does.  I only did that for character creation purposes for game balance.

Yes, that's what I mean - in character creation. Was Draaz's Heward's Handy Haversack his one and only magic item from character creation, equivalent to Adaran's cloak or Kahan's mace and plate mail?
This message was last edited by the player at 22:05, Tue 04 Oct 2011.

The haversack was his item.  I was less generous then because the players were only level 3 in 2008 when he joined.

So that's roughly on the same level as a Bag of Holding?

I believe Borimer will be taking the Ogre splint mail +1 and spending 100gp to get sized for him.  Grung will put in for the Ogre's +1 Battle Axe and using it to barter for a restore on his +2 axe.  He will also put in for the Ogre's +1 bracers if they both work with his normal plate mail and no on else wants them.

We appear to be close to settling things with the magic item claims. I need Borimer, Kahan, Heath (for Grizz), and Grung to confirm that I have it straight in the Unclaimed Items thread.

I'm putting this as a question to all players.  Grung just brought to my attention a table that I have never seen before from the PhB.  Although I like it, I wonder if it is too complicated.  However, it may be useful here if groups of people are using the same type of armor.

Here it is:

Table 52:
Weapon Type vs. Armor Modifiers

Armor Type	Slash	Pierce	Bludgeon
Banded mail	+2	  0	+1
Brigandine	+1	+1	  0
Chain mail*	+2	  0	 -2
Field Plate	+3	+1	  0
Full Plate	+4	+3	  0
Leather armor**	  0	 -2	  0
Plate mail	+3	  0	  0
Ring mail	+1	+1	  0
Scale mail	  0	+1	  0
Splint mail	  0	+1	+2
Studded leather	+2	+1	  0
	* Includes bronze plate mail
	** Includes padded armor and hides

So essentially, armor has different protection depending on the type of attack.  I believe these are bonuses to AC, not additions to AC.

Let me know what you think about using it.  We could do it on a trial basis for this battle if you want.

I think we should keep at as is for now. Maybe after the battle we could implement this.

The dwarf fighters will primarily have field plate and ringmail.

Clerics will have splint mail.

Rogues will have leather armor.

Mages will have no armor.

What do we expect the orcs to be wearing?

About the same thing, possibly more plate, including full plate.

LOL so we're actually going to be the ones with the disadvantage if we use these rules - especially the Rogues.

these are cool rules but take a while to get used to, it may be best to wait until after the battle for implementation

it may be that borimer will do much more damage 'alone' than leading a group. borimer's ac and thaco are pretty good, and with the new info on the possible armaments of the orcs it may be better for borimer to act alone during combat.  the orcs will need a natural 20 to hit him (except for those with levels, and thus better thaco's). we may need a backup plan that allows grung or someone else to take borimer's men and then he can cleave his way through the orcs to a leader (or whatever)

You could control Borimer individually and Grizz with a group, if you want.

I'm kind of surprised you've never heard of this table.  I'd say most 2e games I've been in have used them.  It does make things a little more complicated, but not that much.  In particular it makes banded more desirable over splint.

It also gives the orcs an even greater advantage over us than they already have. ;)

Though your characters don't know this, only about half or so of your opponents will actually be orcs.  Advantage?  Well, depends on their level.

Also depends on what armor you have.  For the most part it helps or provides no benefit.  Only leather vs pierce and chain vs bludgeoning have a -2 to AC.

im up for using it if everyone else want to as well, either way

The thing is, our troops all have a THAC0 of 20 and will be wearing a variety of armors between ring mail and field plate. The orcs...will be wearing primarily plate, including full plate. The math works in their favor already, but if they get additional bonuses for their armor, we'll have to roll natural 20's just to hit them.

Are we looking at rules or reality?  I'm all for not using them just for the difficulty, but perhaps in one-on-one combat, which may occur here and there during the battle.

i trust heath to kill treat us fairly in the combat

I definitely prefer reality over rules whenever possible. The problem I have is that in D&D's case, I feel the rules often stray far from reality. Technically, these rules are actually more realistic than the ones we've been using, but given the other mechanics of combat in D&D (THAC0, AC, etc) and the troops we've been given, the end result is a 5% chance to hit our opponents. I don't think that reflects a realistic scenario at all.

Should read as:

ANLISADE:  12 dwarves:  Anlisade and his 11 sons are loyal to Kahan's commands, and secondarily to Borimer; they will be unwilling to listen to Flint.


Should read as:

POLYANTHAR: 10 dwarves: They follow Polyanthar, who in turn will answer to Naj, Grung or Grizz; but they will listen to anyone's commands.

Also, there aren't 10 dwarves listed under Polyanthar, just 5 I believe.

Good catch. Polyanthar's group is missing 4 dwarves. Level 1's I'm guessing?

Yes, they are just 4 1st level warriors.

I actually haven't seen any posts from Naj in a month. It's been almost a week since Flint posted too, but I see that they've both logged on today. Are you guys still with us?


Here's what I recommend to start off:

G1, H1, I1: Naj and 5 rogues setting traps here
L1, M1: Arthure and 4 rogues setting traps here
O5: Grizz, Adaran, and 2 rogues setting traps here
E6: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric
K6: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric
O10: Sun-ray and 3 of Anlisade's level 1 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric

Naj is still here.  I had private message conversations with him.  I may just NPC him for a short time while he's busy.

Here's my suggestion for a division of the main gorge units (at least for the pre-battle until our scouts report back on enemies heading our way):



Northern elevated ledge
ee11: 5 archers, 1 mage, 1 cleric
ff11: 5 archers
gg11: 5 archers
hh11: 5 archers
ii11: 5 archers, 1 mage, 1 cleric

Northeast cave
cc9: 1 light cannon + crew (3 warriors)
dd9: 4 earthrocs (for transporting 4-8 people wherever needed), Borimer, Grung, Flint, Kahan, Anlisade's men (9), Polyanthar's men (10)

Northeast pit
hh13: 8 skeletons
hh14: 10 skeletons

East edge of gorge
kk16: 1 exploding barrel covered in oil
kk17: 1 exploding barrel covered in oil
kk18: 1 exploding barrel covered in oil

Northern bushes
R12: 1 trebuchet + crew (8 warriors)
U12: 1 heavy cannon + crew (6 warriors)

Southern bushes
Q18: 1 light catapult + crew (1 warrior)
V19: 1 light cannon + crew (3 warriors)
Y19: 1 light cannon + crew (3 warriors)

East of map
1 rogue (scouting on earthroc)

What about the 55 warriors? Or are most of them going to be guarding the eastern inlets? Personally I think we should split archers and warriors up, so the warriors can hold the line while archers shoot over them.

49 of the 55 warriors are there. Only 6 are guarding the northern inlets right now. The archers are the warriors. I would think that each of them is capable of using both ranged and melee weapons. I simply called them archers because they should have their bows and crossbows ready to fire right now. That may change if orc forces penetrate our defenses far enough to engage in melee, but for now I think all our infantry should have ranged weapons ready.

I see now. I was thinking 'archers' were 'rogues', not warriors. My mistake.

Lol I wish I had 49 rogues to work with! Mass Backstab. ;)