Here's what I suggest:

Borimer: 15 warriors
Adaran: 15 rogues
Kahan: 5 clerics, 10 warriors
Grung: 15 warriors
Naj: 10 warriors
Flint: 5 mages, 5 warriors

Grizz and Arthure are NPC's so handing control of our troops over to them is basically handing control over to Heath. I'd prefer to keep our troops under the players' control. Perhaps Grizz and Arthure can still technically "lead" some troops, but they should take commands from the rest of us, just as Anlisade and Polyanthar will be doing.

There is another reason Adaran would suggest IC to the others (privately) for why he thinks Grizz in particular should not lead troops into battle. Grizz is reckless and impulsive (in Adaran's opinion), dislikes planning and strategies, and is apt to jump right into the fray without thought - potentially good traits for a warrior, but not so much for a leader upon whom many others' lives are depending. Adaran has witnessed firsthand how Grizz's impulsiveness can result in mass casualties that otherwise could have been avoided completely if intelligent tactics and strategies had been utilized instead of charging foolishly and unilaterally into battle. Adaran does have a lot of respect for Grizz for other reasons, but doesn't consider him a wise choice for the role of a leader. He would prefer Borimer and Grung to lead the majority of the warriors and Grizz to remain back until we've won the upper hand.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:54, Fri 07 Oct 2011.

Kahan could ask Grizz if he would stay and help protect the clerics from danger with a small contingent of troops (say, half of his 10 warriors), and they could move throughout the battlefield healing if/when it became necessary, with Grizz offering help to any units that seem like they need it.


Approximately how many skeletons are there that could be raised? I can animate up to 18 skeletons or 9 zombies (basically, 6 HD of skeletons/zombies for each of my 3 level 3 spells).

this looks about right i think

That's a valid point, I suppose.  We could stick them with someone else as Kahan suggests.

Actually, that is an excellent idea.

what is naj's ac and thaco? im thinking it should look more like:

Borimer: 20 warriors
Adaran: 15 rogues, Arthure
Kahan: 5 clerics, 5 warriors
Grung: 20 warriors
Naj: 5 warriors
Flint: 5 mages, 5 warriors

*edit*
is naj a player or an npc? if he's a player than never mind, do whatever will be the most fun for him too
This message was last edited by the player at 21:42, Fri 07 Oct 2011.

NOrmally I don't tell you this, but Naj is, in fact, a player.

Here are my suggestions for engine and troop placements:

Western elevated grassy area at north of gorge
1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Kahan)
1 bombardment engine aiming northeast (plus 2 crew) (Kahan)
5 archers (Kahan)
5 clerics (Kahan)
2 earthrocs

Eastern elevated grassy area at north of gorge
1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Flint)
1 bombardment engine aiming northeast (plus 2 crew) (Flint)
5 archers (Grung)
5 mages (Flint)
2 earthrocs

Cave at north of gorge
5 archers (Borimer)
5 rogues (Adaran)
10 skeletons (Kahan)
2 earthrocs

Pit at northeast of gorge
8 skeletons (Kahan)

Bushes at northwest edge of gorge
1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Borimer)
5 archers/melee fighters (Borimer)

Bushes at south edge of gorge
1 bombardment engine aiming east (plus 3 crew) (Grung)
5 archers/melee fighters (Grung)

East-most inlet at north of map
10 rogues (Adaran)
2 earthrocs

Southwestern edge of map
1 bombardment engine aiming north into west-most inlet (plus 2 crew) (Borimer)
1 bombardment engine aiming north into middle inlet (plus 2 crew) (Grung)

Elevated grassy area west of west-most inlet
5 archers (Naj)
1 earthroc

Elevated grassy area west of middle inlet
5 archers (Naj)
1 earthroc

Southwestern area of map in front of wall
Sun ray weapon (plus crew) (Anlisade)
Anlisade's men
Polyanthar's men


This is just a first draft of my thoughts/suggestions. The idea here is that we keep most of our troops off the ground and hidden behind cover, in bushes/caves/niches, etc. There are a number of reasons for doing this:

1. Protection. Obviously, by concealing ourselves, we give the orcs fewer targets and make ourselves less vulnerable.

2. Confusion. When the enemy can't find its opposition, it tends to rattle their battle plans and make them anxious. The psychological impact of not seeing one's opponents and not knowing what they're up to can give them pause, disrupt strategies, create unease, restlessness and paranoia - which hurts morale - make them rethink their tactics, and cause them to be more susceptible to disorganized defenses during a sudden attack.

3. Surprise. Obviously, concealing ourselves allows for the opportunity to gain the advantage of surprise attacks.

4. Forewarning. Remaining concealed means we have a chance of gauging our enemy's numbers, weapons, and tactics before they can gauge ours. This allows for last-minute changes in plans and formations to counter whatever they're doing without being attacked while the leadership analyzes the enemy's strategy and adjusts its own accordingly.

This should make it easier for placement and discussion, though my squares don't always line up exactly right:

Here's what I propose for a starting point (to be adjusted as needed per our discussions):

Western elevated grassy area at north of gorge
W8: 1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Kahan)
W7: 1 bombardment engine aiming northeast (plus 2 crew) (Kahan)
V8: 5 archers (Kahan)
V7: 5 clerics (Kahan)
U7: 1 earthroc
T7: 1 earthroc

Eastern elevated grassy area at north of gorge
ii7: 1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Flint)
hh6: 1 bombardment engine aiming northeast (plus 2 crew) (Flint)
hh7: 5 archers (Grung)
gg7: 5 mages (Flint)
ff7: 1 earthroc
gg6: 1 earthroc

Cave at north of gorge
cc9: 5 archers (Borimer)
dd9: 5 rogues (Adaran)
cc10: 5 skeletons (Kahan)
dd10: 5 skeletons (Kahan)
cc8: 1 earthroc
dd8: 1 earthroc

Pit at northeast of gorge
hh14: 5 skeletons (Kahan)
gg14: 3 skeletons (Kahan)

Bushes at northwest edge of gorge
R12: 1 bombardment engine aiming southeast (plus 3 crew) (Borimer)
T12: 5 archers/melee fighters (Borimer)

Bushes at south edge of gorge
V18: 1 bombardment engine aiming east (plus 3 crew) (Grung)
X19: 5 archers/melee fighters (Grung)

East-most inlet at north of map
O6: 5 rogues (Adaran)
O7: 5 rogues (Adaran)
O8: 1 earthroc
O9: 1 earthroc

West and middle inlets at north of map
H11: 1 bombardment engine aiming north into west-most inlet (plus 2 crew) (Borimer)
L11: 1 bombardment engine aiming north into middle inlet (plus 2 crew) (Grung)

Elevated grassy area west of west-most inlet
E5: 5 archers (Naj)
E4: 1 earthroc

Elevated grassy area west of middle inlet
K6: 5 archers (Naj)
K5: 1 earthroc

Southwestern area of map in front of wall
B17: Sun ray weapon (plus crew) (Anlisade)
B11 - E11: Polyanthar's men
B21 - E21: Anlisade's men
This message was last edited by the player at 03:37, Sat 08 Oct 2011.

I have them every once in awhile. It just takes a practiced eye to pull them out of the terrible ones I have. ;)



I still need my skeleton question answered. Sure, I can raise 18 skeletons... but I need 18 dead bodies first. If there aren't enough skeletal remains to animate (I keep saying raise, when really it's "animate"...), then we can't plan them out quite as well. With a range of 10 yards, then should I have to use the spell during combat, I will only be able to use it up to 3 spaces away.

Also, if Grizz and Kahan are going to be able to move around the battlefield, perhaps putting them on the higher ground isn't the best idea? Unless you have an idea of how to move quickly around to the main troops, of course, since healing spells have a range of touch.

I think the skeletons should be animated before combat begins so they can hide in the cave and the pit and wait to ambush the orcs when they pass by.


Oh, I didn't necessarily intend Kahan and Grizz to be physically situated on the elevated grassy area with Kahan's troops - I just labeled each group with its commander so people could tell where their forces are. As I mentioned earlier, I think us PC's should act as individuals in this battle and stay as mobile as possible. The earthrocs would be one way Kahan could move about anywhere quickly when needed. Perhaps he could stay hidden in the bushes with Borimer's or Grung's troops, or in the cave at the north edge of the gorge with the archers, rogues and skeletons, and use ranged spells on the battlefield (the orcs wouldn't be able to tell who's casting spells like Entangle - they'd just see the effects pop up in front of them with no clear source). The northern bushes might be a good choice because they're relatively close to an escape route - the narrow east-most inlet around the bend where Arthure, Adaran, the rogues, and a couple earthrocs are hidden. Kahan and any wounded troops could retreat there quickly for healing, then return to take their positions in the bushes.

Another alternative would be to split up Kahan and the 5 clerics and have one at each of the following locations:

1. with the group in the bushes at the northwest edge of the gorge
2. with the group in the bushes at the south edge of the gorge
3. with the group hiding in the cave at the northeast edge of the gorge
4. with the group on the west elevated grassy area at the north edge of the gorge
5. with the group on the east elevated grassy area at the north edge of the gorge
6. with the group in the northeast-most inlet just northwest of the gorge

That might be a wiser choice. Or it could potentially be a worse choice, since the two elevated grassy areas are well-protected by high lateral rock walls, where as the other areas are more in the open and exposed to attacks. But I can see the wisdom and tactics in either placement.

To add to this idea, here's an alternative plan for the placement of Flint and his 5 mages:

1. with the group on the northwest-most elevated grassy area west of the west-most inlet
2. with the group on the northwest elevated grassy area between the west and middle inlets (where the boulder is)
3. with the group in the northeast-most inlet just northwest of the gorge (I'd suggest Flint position himself there)
4. with the group on the west elevated grassy area at the north edge of the gorge
5. with the group on the east elevated grassy area at the north edge of the gorge
6. with the group hiding in the cave at the northeast edge of the gorge
This message was last edited by the player at 06:40, Sat 08 Oct 2011.

The skeletons are animal skeletons, but there are many of them.

This doesn't make sense. If you're aiming at an area rather than a target, then creatures moving within that area should not have any effect on your chances to hit the area itself. Also, I don't understand why you should be restricted to targeting 1 of 9 squares if you're not actually aiming at the creatures themselves. If you're just trying to hit an area, you should be able to choose any square you want that's within your field of fire, regardless of where creatures are.


I have a problem with the word "never". Sure, I can definitely understand it being unlikely to hit the exact square you intend to hit, even extremely unlikely - but not impossible. This rule actually ensures that you might hit just about any square in a huge area except the one you're aiming for, which doesn't make any sense. If you never hit the exact square you intend to hit, why not just always aim at a square you don't want to hit (like a square occupied by your own units) since that's the only square you're guaranteed not to hit, and every other square is a possibility?

Instead of guaranteeing that you don't hit a given square, there should just be a small chance of hitting any square in the general area you're aiming for - including your intended square. This would be easy to generate randomly: just roll 1d10 to generate a random "target number", then roll 1d10 again to see how close your shot gets to your target on the die. If you miraculously roll your exact target number (1% chance to roll the same number twice in a row on a d10), you hit the exact square you intended. The farther your roll is from the target number, the farther away your shot hits from your intended square (roll 1d8 for direction of scatter per the standard system) - up to a max of 4 squares away (per the standard system of rolling 1d4 for distance from target square). Wouldn't that be a way more sensible system?


This also doesn't make any sense. If you aim at an area rather than a target, the most you can miss by is 4 squares, but if you aim at a target (no matter how huge), you risk missing by as much as 12 squares. That's nonsensical. That means you're more likely to hit your target if you don't aim at it than if you do aim at it. Where's the logic in that? The more effort you expend to hit a target, the farther your shot will miss? Aiming should improve your accuracy, not worsen it. Otherwise, why bother aiming at all?

FYI, this is just a copy and paste from the official rules on mass combat.  I will make adjustments as needed in the actual game to try to ensure it makes sense, particularly since my "squares" are a larger area than contemplated by the rules.  You are likely to have more hits.

Okay, good call. Any adjustments you make to the rules are likely to affect our selections and placements of bombardment engines as well.

As with real battle, it will be a little bit of trial and error and based on chaos and not just rolls of dice.  The rules will be adjusted as we go, meaning your characters will need to make adjustments as well.  There may be misfires and other problems too.  These are not made to 21st century standards.  :)

I understand. But what I mean about our decisions hinging on your adjustments is things like each engine's AOE (if our squares are larger than the squares in the diagrams) and other known factors like that. We need something to work with so we can decide on what engines to use and where to place them.

Each of my squares is about 3x3 squares in the chart.

Wow, that does change things. If that's the case, what are the conversions for each weapon's AOE given here:



The catapults' 3x3 AOE is easy to convert (that's only 1 square on your map), but for others, like the bombards' and trebuchet's 5x5 AOE, and the medium/heavy ballistae's and cannons' AOE, the conversion to squares on your map is unclear. Can you tell us what each engine's AOE and potential "miss radius" would be on your map's squares?

Where there is 1 square, the effect in the corresponding square would be 1/3.  Where there are 25 squares, it would be 4 squares.  Beyond that, you'll just have to see how it plays out in battle.

I will, as usual, be adding various random things to hopefully simulate better the chaos of battle.  The less you try to work out the finite details, I think the more fun you will have in the battle itself.

Not if we get massacred due to poor planning. ;)

But it's also fun to make new characters. ;)

Like orcs?

For anyone confused about the mass battle rules, just pick a number from the map, see who it is, and tell me what you want them to do.  If someone else already moved that number in the round, pick another number. It's best if your character is with the group you are controlling, but I'll give allowances based on your discretion.

DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYONE'S CHOICE OF WHAT TO DO IN MASS COMBAT, even if they step in their own trap.  :)

DO NOT CONTROL MORE THAN 2 NUMBERS IN A ROUND (unless you have permission or, like Kahan, have skeletons or something special under your control).

The mass battle rules are meant to be simple, based on Hit Dice instead of complicated rules, so just have at it.