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The Orc Battle - Wave 1.

Posted by HeathFor group 0
Heath
GM, 3789 posts
Mon 10 Oct 2011
at 16:40
  • msg #46

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

I would actually prefer these discussions to be in the comment thread.  I like to check the main thread when you actually post your moves, such as:

We will have bombardment at X.  We will start at Y. etc.

But for now, continue them here and I will just create a new thread.
Borimer
player, 1729 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Mon 10 Oct 2011
at 18:57
  • msg #47

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Adaran Swiftshadow:
One possibility occurred to me which I haven't yet finished weighing the pros and cons for: have all 8 bombardment engines be light catapults or light ballistae so that they all have a rate of fire of once per 8 rounds. Then have each of them fire in sequence (one fires one round, another fires the next round, another fires the round after that, etc, repeat every 8 rounds). So far, this is what I've got for pros and cons:

PROS
1. Can fire at least one engine every single round of the battle if needed
2. If rounds pass without need for some engines firing, they can double up on major targets like war machines
3. Even if all 8 engines fired in the same round, they'd all be ready to fire again after 8 rounds

CONS
1. Limits options for engines; can only use light catapults and light ballistae
2. No guarantee that each "ready" engine would be aimed at the area being invaded in a given round
3. Doubling up on targets with multiple engines means more areas left undefended

It's a tough call. The benefits could counter a lot of problems we may face in the battle with our limited defenses - if we predict the orcs' attack patterns correctly. The drawbacks could lead to fatal weaknesses in our defense which could compromise everything. I'll let you guys weigh in on this idea.)</orange>

instead of one per round, we could go two or more per round. or we could have half of the bombardment engines firing once/round, and the rest heavier weapons for whatever other purposes.
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2861 posts
THAC0: 17 Melee/12 Ranged
AC: 4 (Dex, Leather)
Mon 10 Oct 2011
at 20:30
  • msg #48

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Borimer:
Adaran Swiftshadow:
One possibility occurred to me which I haven't yet finished weighing the pros and cons for: have all 8 bombardment engines be light catapults or light ballistae so that they all have a rate of fire of once per 8 rounds. Then have each of them fire in sequence (one fires one round, another fires the next round, another fires the round after that, etc, repeat every 8 rounds). So far, this is what I've got for pros and cons:

PROS
1. Can fire at least one engine every single round of the battle if needed
2. If rounds pass without need for some engines firing, they can double up on major targets like war machines
3. Even if all 8 engines fired in the same round, they'd all be ready to fire again after 8 rounds

CONS
1. Limits options for engines; can only use light catapults and light ballistae
2. No guarantee that each "ready" engine would be aimed at the area being invaded in a given round
3. Doubling up on targets with multiple engines means more areas left undefended

It's a tough call. The benefits could counter a lot of problems we may face in the battle with our limited defenses - if we predict the orcs' attack patterns correctly. The drawbacks could lead to fatal weaknesses in our defense which could compromise everything. I'll let you guys weigh in on this idea.)

instead of one per round, we could go two or more per round. or we could have half of the bombardment engines firing once/round, and the rest heavier weapons for whatever other purposes.

(OOC: Let's try to separate what we can all agree upon from what needs to be settled. First, some basic questions that can help narrow down our choices:

1. How often do we expect enemy forces to invade from the northern inlets? Once every 1-8 rounds? Once every 9-12 rounds? Once every 13-15 rounds?

2. How often do we expect enemy war machines to invade the main gorge? Once every 1-8 rounds? Once every 9-12 rounds? Once every 13-15 rounds?

3. Would four bombardment engines (half of our total) be enough to take down any war machines that invade the main gorge?


My suggestion for defending the northern inlets: 3 medium ballistae (2 guarding the northeast meadow, 1 guarding the west-most inlet), 1 light ballista (guarding the middle inlet).

My suggestion for defending the main gorge: 4 light or medium catapults or light cannons, or a combination of the three. Cannons are direct fire (no need to worry about hitting our own forces) but fire slowly, catapults are indirect fire (risk of wide misses, potentially hitting our own troops) but fire faster and can lob burning projectiles and Greek fire canisters.)

This message was last edited by the player at 20:32, Mon 10 Oct 2011.
Heath
GM, 3793 posts
Mon 10 Oct 2011
at 20:46
  • msg #49

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

The waves will come as they come, but generally about once every hour.

You have no idea what or when things will enter the gorge, or in what order.
Borimer
player, 1730 posts
Mon 10 Oct 2011
at 20:47
  • [deleted]
  • msg #50

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

This message was deleted by the player at 20:47, Mon 10 Oct 2011.
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2884 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 05:26
  • msg #51

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: Okay, so here's what we know:




There are a total of 12 bombardment engines to choose from. We can select 8. That means even if we took only 1 of each, there'd be 4 which we wouldn't be taking any of. So let's try process of elimination to narrow down our options a bit. Which 4 bombardment engines would everyone not want to use at all? My choices would be:

1. Great Bombard (19 THAC0, same AOE and turn rate/slower ROF/less damage than a trebuchet, can't fire burning projectiles, no, thank you)
2. Heavy Catapult (16 THAC0, same AOE and damage/slower ROF and turn rate/larger crew/barely more range than a medium catapult, let's not)
3. Heavy Ballista (17 THAC0, same turn rate/less AOE and dmg/slower ROF/shorter range/larger crew/less concealable than a light cannon, I say no)
4. Medium Catapult (15 THAC0, same turn rate and crew size/less AOE/damage/range/targeting ability/concealability than a light cannon, I'll pass)

Those are the 4 I'd eliminate right away. That would leave:

Light Ballista
Medium Ballista
Light Cannon
Medium Cannon
Heavy Cannon
Bombard
Trebuchet

Which 4 of the 12 engine choices would you guys eliminate and why? Hopefully this will help us narrow down our choices and focus our discussions so we can make our selections and move on to other matters.)

Borimer
player, 1737 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 07:29
  • msg #52

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

i think we could do without the following:

Medium Cannon
Heavy Cannon
Bombard
Trebuchet

too slow RoF on these for our present circumstances
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2885 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 09:26
  • msg #53

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: I'm interested to hear what Kahan, Grung, Naj and Flint think about the 4 worst choices. As for rate of fire and our needs, it's hard to say. I originally thought that we might need to fire at least once every 8 rounds, if not faster, but if we did that we'd expend each engine's 10 shots within the first 2 waves of the battle. Per the latest info from Heath, this siege is likely going to last 6+ hours/waves, which brings me to the following concerns:

1. If we do in fact need to fire at least once every 8 rounds throughout each wave, we're going to be in trouble because we'll run out of ammunition fast. I would hope Heath wouldn't make things that hard on us, but it's a possibility.

2. If we don't need to fire that often (and I hope we don't), then we might be sacrificing much needed AOE, damage, and range capability versus the orcs' war machines (which is what I expect we'll primarily need our bombardment engines for) all for a faster firing rate that turns out to be unnecessary and a waste of an engine's damage potential.

3. If we're going to be facing the orcs' war machines in each wave of the battle, that means we'll be confronting them for at least 5 hours, possibly longer. If our ammo is to last that long, that means we'd be firing each engine at a rate of once per every half hour on average. That is slow enough that even heavy cannons (which fire once every 30 rounds) could conceivably be a very viable option.

Ultimately, sooner or later we have to decide on what we think is most likely to happen over the course of this battle and allow for some flexibility in our strategy (i.e. not throw all our eggs in one basket, so to speak). The fast rate of fire, low AOE/damage option is one basket. The slow rate of fire, high AOE/damage option is another basket. We might be wise to mix it up with a combination of both - some heavy/medium/light weapons in the gorge, and some light/medium weapons in the northern inlets. Here's one possibility:

1 heavy cannon (main gorge)
1 trebuchet (main gorge)
1 light catapult (main gorge)
4 light cannons (main gorge/northern inlets)
1 light ballista (between 2 northwest-most inlets)
sun ray (alternate between main gorge and northern inlets)

This would basically combine the best traits of various engines for different purposes. For fast rate of fire, you've got the light catapult and light ballista; for accuracy, you've got the light cannons and light ballista; for large AOE and heavy damage, you've got the heavy cannon and trebuchet; and for burning projectiles and Greek fire canisters, you've got the trebuchet and light catapult. There are other possible combinations which could work, but this is an example.

Anyhow, I agree with Borimer that we could do without medium cannons and bombards. If we're going for damage and AOE, I say we go all out and get a heavy cannon or trebuchet (I know I stated my misgivings about trebuchets earlier, but after Heath explained that squares on the map are much larger than in the AOE diagrams, it appears that obscenely terrible misses won't be as great a risk to our own troops as I had previously worried about).

Borimer, do you agree that we should avoid using these:

Great Bombard (19 THAC0, same AOE and turn rate/slower ROF/less damage than a trebuchet, can't fire burning projectiles)
Heavy Catapult (16 THAC0, same AOE and damage/slower ROF and turn rate/larger crew/barely more range than a medium catapult)
Heavy Ballista (17 THAC0, same turn rate/less AOE and damage/slower ROF/shorter range/larger crew/less concealable than a light cannon)
Medium Catapult (15 THAC0, same turn rate and crew size/less AOE/damage/range/targeting ability/concealability than a light cannon)

This message was last edited by the player at 09:31, Wed 12 Oct 2011.
Borimer
player, 1739 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 14:21
  • msg #54

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Adaran Swiftshadow:
I'm interested to hear what Kahan, Grung, Naj and Flint think about the 4 worst choices.

i would like their input as well, otherwise we will assume they are wanting us to do this and get moving, and thats fine too :)

Adaran Swiftshadow:
1 heavy cannon (main gorge)
1 trebuchet (main gorge)
1 light catapult (main gorge)
4 light cannons (main gorge/northern inlets)
1 light ballista (between 2 northwest-most inlets)
sun ray (alternate between main gorge and northern inlets)

this looks good

Adaran Swiftshadow:
Borimer, do you agree that we should avoid using these:

Great Bombard (19 THAC0, same AOE and turn rate/slower ROF/less damage than a trebuchet, can't fire burning projectiles)
Heavy Catapult (16 THAC0, same AOE and damage/slower ROF and turn rate/larger crew/barely more range than a medium catapult)
Heavy Ballista (17 THAC0, same turn rate/less AOE and damage/slower ROF/shorter range/larger crew/less concealable than a light cannon)
Medium Catapult (15 THAC0, same turn rate and crew size/less AOE/damage/range/targeting ability/concealability than a light cannon)</orange>

yes
Kahan Singh
player, 1067 posts
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 15:37
  • msg #55

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

The only thing I can think of to change would be changing the heavy cannon to a medium catapult that can toss fire into the gorge (where our troops aren't, of course). If there are going to be war machines, they will most likely be made out of wood, which, obviously, fire would do very well against. ;)
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2887 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 17:08
  • msg #56

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: Well, a light catapult might be a better choice than a medium one for the reasons listed previously. I agree that we should have at least one catapult for lobbing burning projectiles and Greek fire at war machines. A trebuchet can also fire burning projectiles and can cover 4 squares on the map with its AOE, where as catapults can cover only 1 square. Heavy cannons can cover 5 squares on the map with their AOE.

Kahan, what would be your choices for the 4 "worst" bombardment engines of the 12 listed in the table? We're trying to eliminate some so we can narrow our options and make it easier to decide on what we want.)

Kahan Singh
player, 1069 posts
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 17:38
  • msg #57

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Yes, trebuchets and cannons cover more area, but they are also extremely slow to turn and to fire. If there is more than one war machine we want covered in fire that aren't right next to each other, then the only way we could do that is with flaming arrows, which I'm not sure we are going to have access to.


Four least-favorite weapons are, with least-liked on top;

Great Bombard
Heavy Ballista
Heavy Cannon
Bombard
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2888 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Wed 12 Oct 2011
at 20:16
  • msg #58

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: What I'm thinking is that we may not need to turn our heavy weapons much, rather we can just keep them pointed at the eastern area of the gorge since we know most of the orcs will be coming through there. Also, for heavy cannons, turning isn't really the issue since they turn faster than they can actually fire. It's really the rate of fire that is their main drawback, not so much their turning speed. But if these things need to last us for 5+ waves, we may not actually want to fire them faster than once every half hour anyway (since we've only got 10 shots for each engine). That was the point I was making earlier.

One thing is clear though - all three of us want to avoid using these:

Great Bombard
Bombard
Heavy Ballista

Borimer and I also want to avoid using:

Heavy Catapult
Medium Catapult
Medium Cannon

Kahan, what are your thoughts on those three? Borimer, what are your thoughts on heavy cannons after the points that have been raised? Should we exclude them and rely solely on 1-2 trebuchets for AOE and heavy damage needs, forget about AOE and heavy damage altogether and stick with light/medium weapons, or use at least 1 heavy cannon and 1 trebuchet?

Grung, Naj, and Flint, it would be good to get your input on all this too. If you'd rather not bother with all these decisions, let us know and we'll come to a concencus amongst ourselves.)

This message was last edited by the player at 20:17, Wed 12 Oct 2011.
Borimer
player, 1741 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 00:32
  • msg #59

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

i'm good either way, but heavy cannons sound really cool :)
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2893 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 01:15
  • msg #60

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: In that case, I propose the following:

1 trebuchet (main gorge)
1 heavy cannon or trebuchet (main gorge) - you guys decide
1 light catapult (main gorge)
1 light cannon or light catapult (main gorge) - you guys decide
2 light cannons (alternate between main gorge and northern inlets)
2 light cannons (northwest and middle inlets)
sun-ray (northeast inlet)

Light cannons can fire once every 15 rounds (figure roughly 4 shots per attack wave) and can change facing up to 45 degrees in the same round that they fire. They are the most accurate weapons besides light ballistae, have excellent range, high damage, decent AOE (1 2/3 squares), can target small units, take only 3 crew to man each, are small enough to be easily concealable (which also means harder for enemies to hit) in bushes or up on elevated terrain, and are probably one of the most mobile weapons available. They are the best fallback weapons in my opinion.)

This message was last edited by the player at 01:18, Thu 13 Oct 2011.
Kahan Singh
player, 1071 posts
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 03:34
  • msg #61

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

If Borimer wants to use a heavy cannon, then we can go ahead and use one, I suppose. It's always a good idea to keep the big warrior-types happy. ;)
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2898 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 03:58
  • msg #62

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: Okay. So we're using 1 trebuchet, 1 heavy cannon, 1 light catapult, and 5 light cannons? Agreed?)
Borimer
player, 1743 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 04:17
  • msg #63

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

agreed
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2900 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 04:29
  • msg #64

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: Kahan, do you agree on keeping Augmantium handy with you to unleash on the orcs in case they bring enchanted weapons and armor? Using the magic box containing it, Augmantium's anti-magic blast can be directed in a particular direction without dispelling our own magic items.

Borimer, do you agree on positioning the 3 exploding barrels at the east edge of the gorge, coating them with oil, and detonating them with burning projectiles and flaming arrows when the orcs' war machines get in range?)

Borimer
player, 1744 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 04:38
  • msg #65

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Adaran Swiftshadow:

Borimer, do you agree on positioning the 3 exploding barrels at the east edge of the gorge, coating them with oil, and detonating them with burning projectiles and flaming arrows when the orcs' war machines get in range?)

yes
Kahan Singh
player, 1075 posts
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 12:52
  • msg #66

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

If I'm going to be keeping Augmantium in my backpack then I'd better have Borimer in front of me in case I get attacked. ;)
Borimer
player, 1746 posts
Ac -3/-1/ 3 Mvt 18"
Thac0 14 Hit Points 70
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 16:16
  • msg #67

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

just dont hit me with augmantium rays ;-p
Kahan Singh
player, 1076 posts
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 16:24
  • msg #68

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

I was actually thinking of sitting on your shoulders. :P
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2903 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Thu 13 Oct 2011
at 19:30
  • msg #69

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

(OOC: I think it might be a better idea for you to keep the box in your Heward's Handy Haversack.)
Adaran Swiftshadow
player, 2917 posts
THAC0: 15 Melee/13 Ranged
AC: 1 (Dex, Stud Lthr +2)
Sun 16 Oct 2011
at 02:16
  • msg #70

Re: The Orc Battle - Wave 1

Heath:
take the above list and do the following:

1 Call each group by a number, letter, or other simple moniker
2 Indicate for each group in parentheses which player is controlling that group

(OOC: How about this:

Positions:
Northern inlets
G1, H1, I1: Naj and 5 rogues (RG1) setting traps here
L1, M1: Arthure and 4 rogues (RG2) setting traps here
O5: Grizz, Adaran, and 2 rogues (RG3) setting traps here
E6: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 earthroc (NW1)
K6: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric, 1 earthroc (NI1)
O10: Sun-ray and 3 of Anlisade's level 1 warriors (crew), 1 mage, 1 cleric (NE1)
North/northeast of map: 3 rogues (scouting on earthrocs) (RG5, RG6, RG7)

Main gorge - northern elevated ledge
ee11: 5 archers, 1 mage, 1 cleric (FT5)
ff11: 5 archers (FT4)
gg11: 5 archers (FT3)
hh11: 5 archers (FT2)
ii11: 5 archers, 1 mage, 1 cleric (FT1)

Main gorge - northeast cave
cc9: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew) (LC1)
dd9: Borimer, Kahan, Flint, 9 of Anlisade's men (AN1), Grung and Polyanthar's men (PO1), 4 earthrocs

Main gorge - northeast pit
hh14: 10 skeletons (SK1)
hh13: 8 skeletons (SK2)

Main gorge - northern bushes
R12: 1 trebuchet and 8 warriors (crew) (TR1)
U12: 1 heavy cannon and 6 warriors (crew) (HC1)

Main gorge - southern bushes
Q18: 1 light catapult and 1 warrior (crew) (LCT)
V19: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew) (LC3)
Y19: 1 light cannon and 3 warriors (crew) (LC2)

Main gorge - east of map
1 rogue (scouting on earthroc) (RG4)


Groups:
BORIMER'S GROUPS
Hvy Cannon 1 (HC1): heavy cannon and 6 crew
Lt Cannon 1 (LC1): light cannon and 3 crew
Fire-team 1 (FT1): 5 warriors, 1 mage, 1 cleric
Fire-team 2 (FT2): 5 warriors
Fire-team 3 (FT3): 5 warriors


ADARAN'S GROUPS
Lt Cannon 2 (LC2): light cannon and 3 crew
Fire-team 4 (FT4): 5 warriors
Rogues 1 (RG1): Naj and 5 rogues
Rogues 2 (RG2): Arthure and 4 rogues
Rogues 3 (RG3): Adaran, Grizz and 2 rogues
Rogues 4 (RG4): 1 rogue on earthroc
Rogues 5 (RG5): 1 rogue on earthroc
Rogues 6 (RG6): 1 rogue on earthroc
Rogues 7 (RG7): 1 rogue on earthroc


KAHAN'S GROUPS
Lt Catapult (LCT): light catapult and 1 crew
Anlisade's Group (AN1): Kahan, Borimer, Flint, Anlisade and 8 of Anlisade's men
Northeast Inlet Group (NE1): sun-ray and 3 of Anlisade's level 1 warriors
Clerics 1 (CL1): 5 clerics (currently assisting other groups)
Skeletons 1 (SK1): 10 skeletons
Skeletons 2 (SK2): 8 skeletons


GRUNG'S GROUPS
Trebuchet 1 (TR1): trebuchet and 8 crew
Polyanthar's Group (PO1): Grung, Polyanthar and Polyanthar's 9 men


FLINT'S GROUPS
Lt Cannon 3 (LC3): light cannon and 3 crew
Fire-team 5 (FT5): 5 warriors, 1 mage, 1 cleric
Mages 1 (MG1): 5 mages (currently assisting other groups)


NAJ'S GROUPS
Northwest Inlet Group (NW1): light cannon and 3 crew, 1 mage, 1 cleric


ARTHURE'S GROUPS
North Inlet Group (NI1): light cannon and 3 crew, 1 mage, 1 cleric

Note that although Grizz is currently in one of Adaran's groups, he would most likely return to Kahan and the others in the cave after he's done setting traps. Also note that although the 5 mages and 5 clerics are currently assisting other groups, they would still be beholden to Flint's and Kahan's commands (given in advance) which would supersede the commands of whichever group leaders they are currently helping in the event of conflicting orders.

Hence, there would still technically be both a "Mages group" and a "Clerics group", despite the fact they're not all physically in the same place. The same would go for Adaran's rogues if he were to send them to assist other groups (as he has currently done with Naj's and Arthure's groups). They are still technically part of an overriding "Rogue group", and would follow commands given by Adaran in advance when assisting other groups before following any commands issued by those groups' leaders.)

This message was last edited by the player at 02:17, Sun 16 Oct 2011.
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