That sounds like a decent idea. What are we doing with all the earthrocs we have access to?

Adaran has dispatched four of them to scout down the gorge and the 3 northern inlets. When they report back, we should have a better idea of what to expect. I think we should keep another 4 secluded in the cave, and the last 2 should be placed on the two elevated northwestern grassy areas with the crews defending the inlets, so that the mages and clerics can move around quickly if needed.

A reminder for Kahan and Flint in case it affects battle strategies - you each have these scrolls:


Prayer, Produce Flame, and Glyph of Warding might be useful in this battle.


Monster Summoning 3, Wall of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, and Fireball would definitely be useful in this battle. Additionally, Flint also has both Draaz's spellbook (with all its spells duplicated, which could come in handy if he needs to fast-cast them straight from the book's pages in an emergency) and Nimith's spellbook ("on loan" until Nimith is released). I don't know what spells each of those have in them. Heath can give you that info. It's also unclear how many of each of the spells on Maelarian's wizard scroll there are. Just 1 of each?
This message was last edited by the player at 04:49, Thu 13 Oct 2011.

also, borimer is extremely resistant to fire, so if you need to fireball everything (including borimer) it may work, just check to see how wounded he is.

we could use a system of quickly determining if someone is wounded (and approximatetly how much; we dont know hp so it shouldnt be that way imo).  i've been using color codes in my campaign and it seems to work fine.

any round of combat includes a quick summary of stats, and below is an example. the only important part is the color coding.  green = full hp, yellow = wounded, and red = <50% of hp total. this allows ta character to quickly assess if someone is wounded and about how badly, without ooc chatting or knowledge of hit points.  although normally i don't mind if we have this or not (and i think we may have discussed this a long time ago), for this combat its important that we can 'see' what our characters would see when looking at a comrade. are they wounded, and about how bad.

Current Stats
Thud -1 level
  AC 1  HP 23/44  Rations: 10 days
13:58, Today: loneSpider, on behalf of Thaddeus, rolled 8 using 3d6. dex chck 15 or less to keep footing.

Gandar underwater
  AC 6  HP 20/20  Rations: 10 days
13:57, Today: loneSpider, on behalf of Gandar Swiftwind, rolled 7 using 3d6. dex chck 11 or less to keep footing.
14:36, Today: loneSpider, on behalf of Gandar Swiftwind, rolled 12 using 3d6. 2nd roll keep feet *critical miss* <11.

Cailet poisoned (slowed)  underwater
  AC 6  HP   16/20  Rations: 10 days

Keely prayer
  AC 3  HP 40/40  Rations: 11 days
20:45, 13:59, Today: Keely rolled 12 using 3d6. dex chck 11 or less to keep footing.

Janic
  AC 4  HP 24/50  Rations: 12 days

I just realized, Animate Dead has a Permanent duration, so I can use my 3 level 3 spells the night before the battle to animate the animal skeletons (and keep them in the cave, correct?), and use my other 3 level 3's for other things (possibly more animating, possibly other things).

That would be fine.

As for the battle, this battle will be fairly simple and straightforward.  I may use color coding or something similar if you are not surrounded by men (and thus the last to get hit), but I'm hoping it won't become overly complicated.

Keep in mind:

It was Nimith who purchased the 3 jawtraps and 1 barrel of gunpowder (not Grizz or Naj).  Since you had Nimith locked up, those are not available unless you go back to his apartment and steal them.

Heath, 3 jaw-traps aren't going to make much difference against big armies of orcs. Surely Krugoth has provided us with way more than that for setting up traps?

Nope.  They've got their own problems defending the rest of the compound.  That's why I set up the marketplace to purchase items like the dynamite and traps.

There's no way we could afford to buy enough traps to cover even a single square on the map. Are we expected to pay with our own money to defend Krugoth's compound?

I feel we should be a bit more spread out than this. Putting us and all of our troops into one cave might not be the greatest idea. Ever heard of 'putting all your eggs in one basket'? If there are any elevated platforms (honestly, looking at the map, it's quite confusing to me what's higher than what), we should station archers there, and keep a few back towards the end of the gorge to make it look like that's our 'army' to fool (somewhat) the orcs into charging at them. That's when we toss all our bombardments, volley arrows and spells at them.

No.  There are not enough traps to buy anyway.  Nimith bought the last of the traps and gunpowder at the market.  As to other items, the market is not open now anyway and the military confiscated the rest to use in other areas of defense.

Keep in mind that you are defending only one small area, the one they think that needs the fewest men and traps and things.  If you ask Krugoth for these things, he will say there is much more need for them in other defensive positions and you guys got the easy area to defend.

*sigh* I did not suggest "putting us and all of our troops" into the cave. It would probably be a good idea to read my posts with more than a passing glance if you're going to respond to them.


...which is, in fact, exactly what I suggested. Hence my asking you to read my post first, respond to it second.


That's one idea. We could also just wait for them to pass through on their own with no visible targets at all, and then ambush them.

The "higher ground" you can get to is essentially most of rows 10 and 11, both in the northern areas and the northern part of the gorge, including the top of the little loopy area.  You could station archers at any of these locations.

You could station archers in the two oval grassy areas in the northwest area, but they would be firing blindly...like firing out from the inside of a bowl.

were these the dwarves that scouted the northern inlets? or the gorge? which direction were these flying creatures, trolls, etc? [this is going to be really cool fight btw :) ]

First of all, there's no need to be snarky. I would appreciate it greatly if your attitude changed. You don't need to *Sigh* at me, or insinuate I have sub-par reading skills.

Secondly, I see now that I was putting the numbers on the wrong lines; the fact that the map's grid doesn't quite line up threw off my numbering scheme. So my bad, you probably put the numbers right and I probably messed them up.

I still think my idea has merit, though, even if my first post was wrong. 19 dwarves and us might not be enough to stop the orcs even with bombardment engines and archers.

I didn't insinuate anything about your reading skills. I have seen that when it comes to my posts, you often don't care to actually read them at all, just glance at them or barely skim them (you've admitted to this before), but then you respond to them with comments that you wouldn't say if you had read what you're responding to. So yes, that qualifies for an exasperated sigh.

And I also would appreciate it greatly if your attitude changed and if you didn't constantly do things that irritate me (yes, I caught your subtle "eggs in one basket" retort, thank you), but you have stated that you don't really care if you aggravate me, so the feelings at this point are mutual.


I don't see what that has to do with confusing whom I suggested hide in the cave and up on the ledge (since I very clearly listed them under "Main gorge - northeast cave" and "Main gorge - northern elevated ledge"). It's things like that that lead me to believe you barely read my posts in the first place and don't care if it exasperates me. Well, that and comments like this one:




Oh, I agree. But Heath said that Anlisade's and Polyanthar's groups must stay together, hence my keeping them in the same place. But on the other hand, as you rightly said, we shouldn't keep all our eggs in one basket, which is why I didn't suggest putting more men in there with them (except PC's). But I definitely agree that 19 dwarves and 4 PC's might not be enough to stop the orcs even with bombardment engines and archers - which is why I think we need to capitalize on ambushes and not waste groups of men on "decoy units". If we had plenty of men to spare, then a decoy unit might not be such a bad idea, but since we're terribly short on troops, I don't think we can afford that.

I think our wisest strategy would be to give the orcs zero visible targets at first - let them see a deserted gorge. Let them scratch their heads in consternation for a second or two, and then we attack - from above (archers on ledge), from below (skeletons in pit), from behind (cave group), and from camouflage directly before their eyes (bombardment engines).
This message was last edited by the player at 23:08, Sat 15 Oct 2011.

I'm unclear on where you're talking about - do you mean the grassy areas at the north of the main gorge, the ones bordering 2 of the 3 northern inlets, or all of the above? I had suggested putting light cannons up on the elevated grassy areas between the 2 northwest inlets. Would they be firing blindly? Firing blindly might not be a big problem for bombardment engines if they're set beforehand to target squares at estimated distances, rather than individual targets - and then just firing whenever given a shout from sentries below. But definitely we shouldn't put archers anywhere where they'd be firing blindly (and currently we aren't).
This message was last edited by the player at 02:26, Sun 16 Oct 2011.

i think ambushes and an empty gorge can be a good idea, but i also think they know the dwarves wouldnt leave the wall undefended. thats why i initially felt it may be a good idea to have borimer and grung (if he wants to) be in the middle with a good sized group of dwarves to draw them in.

but i dont know which is a better idea and borimer can be with the main group of dwarves lying in ambush or at x15 where they currently are, either is fine with me.  is the cave large enough to hide borimer and co. to wait in ambush (empty gorge tactic)? is there another way to hide borime and co. to ambush?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:11, Sun 16 Oct 2011.

I suppose a lot depends partially on what will initially be coming into the gorge. If we're going to be facing war machines and huge creatures right off the bat, then obviously we wouldn't want to have anyone standing in the middle of the gorge because we'd need to keep the area clear for our bombardments (which is pretty much where I'm coming from with the "empty gorge" strategy). As soon as we engage in melee, we're most likely not going to be able to fire our bombardments because our troops will be in the way of our targets. So I was thinking we'd fire bombardments first, then rush out of hiding with surprise attacks to finish them off in melee while our engines are reloading for 8-30 rounds.

If we're not going to be facing war machines and huge creatures right away, and therefore can afford to not fire our bombardments, then maybe it would be okay to have troops standing out on the battlefield. I'm still not sure that would be a wiser strategy though, even if we were only facing infantry (which seems unlikely given the scouts' reports).

Basically what I'm saying is this: even given the fact that the orcs know the dwarves likely wouldn't leave the wall undefended, that might not matter because they still wouldn't know where our initial attacks would be coming from. They might expect to be attacked, but from where? With what? By how many? Are their enemies all together in one place or spread out ready to attack from multiple directions? Are they walking into a trap? If so, what do they do, just stand there and dare not set foot in the gorge out of paranoia? Can they count on our defenses actually being in the gorge or might we conceivably have chosen to place our defenses behind the wall?

The orcs aren't going to know the answers to all these uncertainties. They'll know we've surely got defenses waiting somewhere, but that's all they'll know. And will that actually help them if they still have to cross through the gorge to get to the wall, traps or no traps? It may not make much of a difference.

So that's the supposed downside to the empty gorge strategy. In contrast, what's the supposed upside to the occupied gorge strategy? That they see an army waiting for them whom they can attack? Okay, so they launch bombardments at us. So far, we're not gaining any advantage out of this and we're probably getting hit and losing troops. We probably aren't firing our own bombardments either out of fear of hitting our own men who are standing right smack in the gorge trying to draw the orcs in.

But suppose they survive that bombardment and then the orcs charge into the gorge. Okay, so we basically have a similar scenario to the empty gorge strategy - they enter the gorge, we attack with surprise from all sides. With one notable difference: our surprise attacks are not as powerful because there are much fewer guys in that cave and up on that ledge doing the attacking. So we have more initial casualties, inability to safely fire our bombardments, and weaker surprise attacks.

You see what I'm saying?

those are fine points and we can put borimer and co whereever they can hide and take it from there, and i agree we have a good chance to do well in the battle.

however, i'm not sure that they can be moving their bombardment engines and then aim and fire them quickly enough when they see borimer's force.  i'm guessing they cant, and so firing down their bombardment engines onto borimers group doesn't sound like something they can actually do in the amount of time they need before borimer (or whomever) could get beyond their minimum range and attack them first.

while they are trying to work their engines to hit borimer we are already aimed at the gorge and can start hitting them first while borimer attacks, or draws them in, and then others ambush. just an observation, as i dont know enough about how the engines work to know if the enemy can easily fire at borimer and co. when they first see them.

where would borimer and co. hide?  i can post his new location before the battle begins

Neither am I. But the problem is, I'm equally unsure that we can count on them not being able to do that. I've found that the most effective strategies in just about any type of situation tend to be those which hinge the least on unknown variables (such as whether the orcs are capable of firing bombardments at us before we can take them out with our infantry - that's something we don't know, and can't know until it's already happening), and which can function effectively in a variety of different potential 'what-if' scenarios. The strategy which you're proposing hinges a great deal on unknowns regarding the capabilities of the orcs' weapons, and will only work if your guesses about those unknowns turn out to be right. It's because of that reason (and the other problems I mentioned) that I'm leery of this approach.


This also raises an important consideration which I don't think has been brought up yet: if you're right, and the orcs can't fire bombardments at us before we could get beyond their minimum range and attack them first, are we expecting that they haven't thought about that as well? That would seem to be a major disadvantage for them that could easily compromise their assault, so would they not therefore take steps to ensure they're prepared for this very basic contingency, so as to not be so vulnerable to our infantry before they can fire their bombardments? If you're right about the limitations of their weapons, then they must have a plan for countering such a basic exploit of that weakness, otherwise it would be downright stupid for them to go through with it in the first place because they should expect our infantry to do exactly what you're suggesting. I don't want our defense strategy to hinge on our enemies being stupid. If I were an orc war captain tasked with breaking through an enemy compound's defenses, I'd make sure I had plenty of archers and crossbowmen prepared to hold off any frontal assault by enemy infantry until my war machines were loaded and ready to fire.


Problem: if Borimer's group is attacking them (in the gorge obviously), then firing our bombardments at them also risks hitting Borimer's group, since the combat would basically all be taking place in the same area - the east end of the gorge which we're defending. This is one of the major problems I highlighted earlier with this strategy. Attacking the orcs with infantry and bombardments at the same time is probably just as likely to result in casualties on our side from friendly fire as it is to result in enemy casualties. The likelihood of this strategy resulting in a clear victory for our side narrows more and more with every major risk involved and every assumption about our enemies' capabilities upon which it relies to succeed.


That's what worries me. Because I don't know enough about that either. None of us do. And it makes all the difference in the world with this strategy. By contrast, it's pretty much irrelevant with the empty gorge strategy because our enemy's firing speed doesn't matter much if they don't have a target to fire upon - but we can still fire at them immediately from our concealment if we don't have to worry about our own troops getting in the way of our shots.

Another contingency to consider that could screw up the occupied gorge strategy - what if the first thing we're faced with isn't war machines or infantry, but instead giant, fast-moving creatures like the ones our scouts talked about? What if the orcs' "war machines" aren't really machines at all, but huge living beasts capable of hurling "bombardments" with breath-weapons and other attacks? Then what is our army standing in the gorge but a group of prey waiting to be crushed? But if they don't see our army, they will be forced to be more cautious in their attack, giving us the opportunity to devise the most effective surprise attack possible before all hope of strategizing goes out the window in the immediate chaos of the first round of battle.


Borimer's biggest strength is melee with sword and shield, which is why I figured he'd be best placed with Anlisade's and Polyanthar's men in the cave at the northeast of the gorge. Kahan would also be with them (since he leads Anlisade's men and they'll need a good cleric or 6), as would Grung and Grizz (since they lead Polyanthar's men and are most effective in close melee anyway). Flint should probably also be in there with them so he can cast ranged spells as needed from the cave's concealment. In fact, Flint might actually be able to make the entire group invisible (perhaps with the help of Grizz's Wand of Invisibility, 10' radius). Now that would be effective concealment! Where are the orcs' targets now? Not in that cave, that's for sure. ;)

im a bit confused. i thought i only had the following:

i had archers...?

All the warriors on the ledge are using ranged weapons right now, so they're basically archers at the moment.

i see, i will edit my post