Open discussion about this idea.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:28, Fri 06 May 2016.

In reply to GM Arkrim (msg # 1):

I definitely agree there should be SOME sort of compensation for reffing, since that character must sit out for the duration of that round. Maybe a small BP reward of some kind? A Hero point?

I agree with Thraxis it would be nice to be able to Referee and be in a duel concurrently (if you feel you can juggle both matches).  A BP reward would be nice a flat reward of 50 or 75.

think both 1 and 2 are good idea but if i had to choose only one to go with, id say option 2. compensation for non-competition is certainly something i think is worth while.

3. As that entails a small BP bonus to the character and possibly another reward such as the hero point. Kind of like winning against an opponent of exact BP value. Though not quite. Especially if the match takes a long time, this would be worth it for the individual reffing.

Id say 1) and 2), but without the hero point.
Refereeing is using valuable time, but there's no challenge really...
Handing out hero points for refereeing would put (too?) many hero points in circulation.

Maybe something along the lines of 10 bp for every week the match lasts. and a hero point if it goes on for more than a month or something?

Im not sure if 10 bp a week is enough but suggesting more than 15 seems like it might be too much.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:23, Sat 07 May 2016.

I'd like to vote 3 too,  as it would be a good motivation for others to learn more how to ref a match. And I suggest also am assistant ref in case the main ref gets sick or can't post.

I feel that having reffing count for privileges AND being able to fight while reffing would be redundant, so I'd prefer just option 1.

There should definitely be a reward too, smaller than the reward for losing, and definitely no hero points involved.

In reply to Tinny Tina (msg # 9):

I agree it should just be a BP reward however it needs to be static other wise everyone would want to ref Hiro and Latro but less would be willing to ref Xin and Jayce if it is based on the matches BP reward.

It seems like the general consensus is to have both permission to play and ref, and to have some sort of reward for refs.

For the reward, how about a straight 30 bp, plus 15 if it goes into a second month?  Most matches are done in one month, and the ref does a lot of work right at the outset checking two character sheets.  A straight 30 bp means that the ref gets about what the average loser gets, but avoids making extra math and prevents any bias that could hypothetically occur if bp award was somehow tied to the loser's actual award.  The extra 15 is because games that go beyond 1 month generally require a lot of extra work from the ref.

I don't believe paying refs by real-world time adequately reflects effort/work. Some people make exceptions on the 48 hour rule and where you're ALLOWED to do that, folks shouldn't be incentivized to do so. If anything, measuring by ROUNDS of combat and NUMBER of gladiators would probably more accurately represent a ref's amount of work and effort.

Perhaps 30 base BP + 1 BP/gladiator/round the battle actually takes beyond 10 rounds? Or something like that.

That way it's actually related to the amount of hypothetical work they may be doing.

Could be a flat /round amount too, it's just, in my experience, more players means more work.

That's my two copper pieces.

Concerning 1) - I am all in favor of refs being able to compete in other matches.

Concerning 2) - I also think the refs should be compensated. But how much is the issue because they aren't actually fighting. The issue is how to decide how much meaningful work the ref is doing and according them the correct about of bp. Going into each match and manually deciding how much work a ref has done is excessive. But giving refs flat bp amounts, while a good solution, I believe a better one is out there. Flat bp amounts aren't ideal because a ref who simply opens a match and closes a match that lasts 2 rounds shouldn't be compensated the same amount as a ref who is engaged in rule discussions for a match that lasts 20 rounds. In my opinion, the best of both worlds is 10/15 bp per week the match lasts. In a sense, the longer a match lasts, the more work a ref likely put into it. It's the most steamlined version of deciding how much work a ref put into something without going into each match and quantifying it. So, if the match lasts 1 week, the ref gets 10/15 bp. If the match lasts 2 weeks, the ref gets 20/30 bp, etc. Additionally, at the end of the match when the ref is declaring winners and losers, the ref can always put Match length: 2 weeks so the GM knows how much to award the ref.

This is similar to Thraxis' idea.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:47, Mon 09 May 2016.

Oh yeah, and I'm all for #1.

Technically, refs were never supposed to be banned from competing as gladiators in one match while reffing in another, but the way the rules were written it just sort of turned out that way. That was not the intent. I will definitely correct that as I think everyone pretty much agrees on that completely. Unless someone has objects to that? Please let me know if you do.

And as for #2, I think we all agree compensation for work should scale somehow. I just think we're in disagreement as to how. Some people say "real world time" which would leave open a bias and easily abused "ignore the 48 hour rule and milk the clock" while I'm in favor of a "per round/per gladiator" method which would actually award a referee for having to deal with more complicated matches and longer matches rather than longer wait times.

REAL WORLD TIME MEASURE :(
A match taking 40 days to get through 4 rounds would grant the referee lots of extra BP for doing pretty much nothing while the poor referee who had to read through 40 rounds of combat in 4 days would get less BP despite tons of extra work.

ROUND/GLADIATOR MEASURE :)
A match taking 40 days to get through 4 rounds would grant the referee only the basic BP reward since all they did was wait and never even bothered to enforce the 48 hour rule. Meanwhile, the dedicated referee pouring over 40 combat posts would get a lot more BP, even if they managed to do it all in only 1 week.

That makes a lot of sense but with finals here I didn't have time to make a post in this thread until now.

How about: 15 BP + 2 per gladiator per round, with a minimum of the lowest gladiator bp gain, and a max of the highest gladiator's bp gain.  It starts small, but rewards the starting effort of checking sheets, then scales evenly and is never better than winning a match because you don't beat the winner's take or gain hero points.  For four player matches it is a little light on payment for sheet checking at the start, but it scales faster (though still commensurate with work).

5 round match -> 35 bp, 10 round match 55, 100 rounds you've definitely been hard capped at the winner's bp (and should probably start making missiles rain from the sky).

Holy crap, that's brilliant. I like that minimum and cap idea based on winner/loser...unless it's a tie? Then maybe the combination of the wins?


Anyways, I eagerly await to hear others' opinions before I recklessly start changing anything...
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:12, Fri 13 May 2016.

+1 this.

I agree whole heartedly.

But what happens when it's a team match?

When it's a team match it starts at 15 and goes up 2 per player per round, as normal (works out to 8 per round instead of 4, though) minimum the lowest player's bp winnings, max of the highest winnings, as normal.  It hits the cap a little faster, but I wanted to reward the refs for running the big events and having the ref get more bp gain than the highest player seems wrong.

Oh yes, declarations would now need to include this data:

Gladiator Name 1 (#BP1) used X consumables and Y hero points

Gladiator Name 2 (#BP2) used X consumables and Y hero points

The match lasted X# of rounds and had Y# of players. (Rounds*Players) + 15 = Total Rewards for Referee.

Winner #BP * 90 = WinX / Loser #BP = Total Rewards for Winner. (max reward for referee)

Loser #BP * 30 = LoseX / Winner #BP = Total Rewards for Loser. (min reward for referee)

Special terms that affect rewards listed at bottom (if any).
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:57, Wed 18 May 2016.

The math in the last post looks good, except I think we had discussed the middle line as:

The match lasted X# of rounds and had Y# of players. (2*Rounds*Players) + 15 = Total Rewards for Referee.


Only question is for PvE games, as mentioned in the ooc.   I think the cap should be a hard 40 min, 90 max and the monster counts as a 'player' for ref bp.  That way the ref gets a little faster reward accrual due to running the monster, and it detaches ref reward from murdering the players/throwing the game so they can be impartial.  [/conspiracies]

I'd go with a 30 min/90 max to match our win/loss ratio. But otherwise, yeah.

I vote yey too!

I vote yes
The match lasted X# of rounds and had Y# of players. (Rounds*Players) + 15 = Total Rewards for Referee.

And for the PvE
This message was last edited by the player at 00:09, Fri 20 May 2016.

Revised.