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08:52, 11th May 2024 (GMT+0)

OOC Discussion 7.

Posted by GM ArkrimFor group 0
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1362 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 13:59
  • msg #889

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Brakt:
Hey OOC.

I need a vote for a ruling, because I can't do my job right :D

Tiaca just cast Reach Scorching Rays using a level 2 spell slot. According to the rules though:

Metamagic:
Pathfinder errata already clarifies this, but just to summarize: any effects that reduce the metamagic cost of an effect do not stack with each other nor can they reduce the spell slot level below its original spell level + 1. This applies regardless of any combination of class features, racial traits, background traits, feats or spells in effect. Any ability that specifically says that it does otherwise is banned from the arena.


So, Tiaca can't do this.  Now, do we:

  • A: Cast the same spell using a level 3 spell slot(Effectively no difference)
  • B: Cast a different spell using the same readied action?
  • C: Tiaca loses the readied action completely?


Thanks guys


Oh my. I was very unaware of this.
Well, obviously, i would vote A but i don't suppose my vote actually counts does it. :P
Alternatively, i vote
D: Treat the spell as if no meta magic was applied to it whatsoever when cast.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:01, Tue 12 Dec 2017.
Josep Gavinho
Sorcerer 1,537, 1128 posts
Human Wizard
TA - 1,537 BP
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 14:34
  • msg #890

Re: OOC Discussion 7

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 889):
 I think that was added after the likes of Haran and Josep heavily abused metamagic enhancing drugs cocktail of traits/feats/rods/bloodline...

 I’d like to rearrange some metamagic memorised spells as well if that’s an option ;)
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1363 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 14:40
  • msg #891

Re: OOC Discussion 7

In reply to Josep Gavinho (msg # 890):

I mean if the ultimate result is that us prepared casters can't cast metamagic-ed spells like that and it turns out Josep has a few of those such prepared metamagic-ed spells, I'm all for simply erasing those spells from the face of this match, never to be seen again. Less spells i have to deal with after all. :P

But i still would like to see that critical spell fly right into your face. :P
Josep Gavinho
Sorcerer 1,537, 1129 posts
Human Wizard
TA - 1,537 BP
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 14:51
  • msg #892

Re: OOC Discussion 7

What, you mean that warm breeze on my cheek? I thought that was you shadow’s caress ;)
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1364 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 14:58
  • msg #893

Re: OOC Discussion 7

In reply to Josep Gavinho (msg # 892):

Oh don't you worry. I still have loads of tricks up my sleeve. 40 damage will help for certain. But i can still take you down myself. you just have to not hit me is all. ;P
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1365 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 15:45
  • msg #894

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Brakt:
Only if Latro doesn't take it first!

But yeah. I think I'm finally in a place where I'll have a chance :)

I do think we'll need someone experienced to ref, if it's anything like your current match... Maybe Latro when he's done eatingwith Grunyar, or Boadicea or Tina maybe?

I'd be up to ref the next championship match assuming i'm not the one holding the belt by then. Hopefully i am, but circumstances being what they are, it honestly could go either way. I'll need to build my hero point reserve if i challenge the champion again so untill then

Hey all you puny worthless new scumbags! Yeah that's right i'm talking to you! Are you new to the arena? Wanna earn a butt ton of BP super fast? Challenge the reigning perpetual runner up to the championship to a fight. All you have to do is loose and you can rake in the spoils of your victory defeat!
Now it's time for some BONUS POINTS!!!
If you're good or lawful aligned you can even earn a hero point for your loss! There truly is no downside to this at all! (Other than your rankings on the leader board. Please don't think about your rankings on the leaderboard) >:D
Challengers killed on a first come first beheaded basis. Latro reserves the right to deny any challenges. Latro not responsible for loss of soul, becoming undead, screaming but no sound coming out, untimely death, moral corruption, hellfire burns, wet pantaloons, and sudden onset of bubonic plague.
Apply now!
Tinny Tina
Alchemist 1,721, 658 posts
Wyrwood Alchemist
SotVD
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 15:56
  • msg #895

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Someone! Fight me!!
Vry
Sorcerer 1,743, 256 posts
Advanced Gnome
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 16:02
  • msg #896

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Haha this championship really calls into question how these voluntary challenge rules can be specified better in the future :P

I could try to set up my sheet for a duel, Tinster! I need them numbers on the scoreboard...
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1367 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 16:34
  • msg #897

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Vry:
Haha this championship really calls into question how these voluntary challenge rules can be specified better in the future :P

I'm reminded of a battle Josep, hiro and i had a long time ago. It was a free for all monster match where we each controlled a CR11 monster or something along those lines.
We all agreed that Ethereal/Incorporeal/Invisible/Swarm/Flying were all suppressed. I took advantage of their oversight and chose a monster with a climb speed.
link to a message in this game
Vry
Sorcerer 1,743, 257 posts
Advanced Gnome
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 20:52
  • msg #898

Re: OOC Discussion 7


   Match Type: 1v1
BP/Hero Limit: No Limit BP / No Limit Hero Points
      Referee: ?
Participant 1: Tinny Tina, Wyrwood, Alchemist ?
Participant 2: Vry, Advanced Gnome, Sorcerer 13/Oracle 1
          Map: Small The Ring
     Lighting: Standard Light
      Terrain: Forest
        Walls: Standard Masonry
         Prep: 1 round
       Extras: None


You up for it?
Vry
Sorcerer 1,743, 258 posts
Advanced Gnome
Shadow's Caress
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 22:21
  • msg #899

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Josep:
with Afrezza in Battle Royale #5

What a battle that was! Go Kazan!!! O_O
Brakt
Fighter 1,729, 506 posts
Ogre Fighter
SotVD
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 01:16
  • msg #900

Re: OOC Discussion 7

And this is why resource management is important...

I do believe there was a rule somewhere that the championship can't be won by disqualification, and instead the belt is given to an NPC created by the GM. Is that right, or am I making things up on the fly?
Tinny Tina
Alchemist 1,721, 659 posts
Wyrwood Alchemist
SotVD
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 01:24
  • msg #901

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Y'know, the site that Arkrim set up for us has a search bar so you can find those sorts of things for yourself. Here, I went and searched for the champion rules for you.

quote:
Becoming a champion requires you to defeat the current champion. Winners gain the championship belt as a reward until someone defeats them in a championship duel and takes the belt (though they retain ex-champion status). The Championship Belt (CL20 Artifact) grants a +2 enhancement to all ability scores and 1/day the wearer can gain a temporary hero point as a swift action (lasts 20 rounds). The belt does not function for anyone but the current champion and functions as a +6 adamantine buckler for hardness and HP.
Only veterans can challenge a champion or serve as a referee to a championship. Champions cannot refuse a standard championship challenge and has only 1 week to answer the call when challenged (doing so is an automatic forfeit). The challenger chooses the map if the champion wears the belt, but otherwise the champion chooses the map. Additional terms must be agreed upon as a normal PvP battle and if the two can't come to an agreement the GM will make a decision for them. If either doesn't want to compete after the GM's decision, it's an automatic forfeit. You cannot win a championship by forfeit but you can still lose by one.
If the current champion forfeits, they lose the belt and an NPC will be crowned the new champion and immediately challenge everyone to a first-come-first-serve battle royal championship. The GM will pick the NPC from the bestiary or design one themselves. The NPC has the same BP as the champion that forfeited.

Brakt
Fighter 1,729, 507 posts
Ogre Fighter
SotVD
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 03:09
  • msg #902

Re: OOC Discussion 7

I didn't realise there was a search bar... I just go through the site looking for what I need lol

Forfeit, not DQ.  Guess Latro get's the belt after all, unless I screwed up somewhere.
Which to be honest, wouldn't surprise me :)
GM Arkrim
GM, 6322 posts
Game Master
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 04:39
  • msg #903

Re: OOC Discussion 7

No, as written the only options are WIN or FORFEIT with no mention of DRAW or DISQUALIFICATION so there's no reason to assume either way and making such an assumption would be neither judging by intent nor by RAW. It would just be a really bad referee call.

So, I'll clarify that.
Brakt
Fighter 1,729, 508 posts
Ogre Fighter
SotVD
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 04:47
  • msg #904

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Sorry, I'll clarify. I get that if Josep is DQ'd, he loses the belt. I just mean if I screwed up reffing the match is all :)
Vry
Sorcerer 1,743, 259 posts
Advanced Gnome
Shadow's Caress
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 09:11
  • msg #905

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Took me a while to find the search too, but it's awesome!
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1369 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 09:55
  • msg #906

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Oh. well, this wasn't what i was expecting to come back to after work. I honestly had no intention of winning by DQ as i was pretty certain that winning by DQ would give that belt to some random schmuck monster and I'd have to issue the challenge all over again. I was just trying to keep Josep on his toes but i guess that sorta backfired, huh?

Well, uh, guess i'll post my end of match post then and hope i can have a shot at getting in on the battle royal championship against some random NPC monster. :/
Josep Gavinho
Sorcerer 1,537, 1132 posts
Human Wizard
TA - 1,537 BP
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 11:01
  • msg #907

Re: OOC Discussion 7

That is a disappointing end indeed.
If you didn’t want to win by disqualification, maybe you shouldn’t have asked the ref to give me a foul every chance you got. Sorry if that sounds sour. I still strongly disagree with the second foul I received. The only reason I didn’t challenge it was fear of a third one...
I’ll wait for Arkrim to tell us what happens with the belt before I make my final post.
GM Arkrim
GM, 6323 posts
Game Master
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 14:11
  • msg #908

Re: OOC Discussion 7

1) Josep, if you don't dispute it IN THE MATCH, then I don't ever enter the match at all.

2) And if you simply don't respond in 48 hours to Brakt's call, he can just close the match.

3) I don't make a determination about the belt until the match ends.



Circular logic is bad form for a wizard.

You've been out of the arena too long.

Gotten rusty there ol'wizard.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:19, Wed 13 Dec 2017.
Josep Gavinho
Sorcerer 1,537, 1133 posts
Human Wizard
TA - 1,537 BP
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 14:31
  • msg #909

Re: OOC Discussion 7

 I’m not disputing anything, I have too much respect for the ungrateful job that it is to referee.
You’ve also made it very clear that dispute are only for when you’re absolutely 100% certain that you’re in the right, and I don’t think that was the case.
 I still think that fouls have been handed out like it’s the most normal thing, which i think is a terrible way of dealing with mistakes, but again I’m yielding to the higher authority.
In the past, I seem to recall that calling an illegal action with no ill intent just caused you to lose the action for the round, which seems like it’s punishment enough in fights that last 3 rounds on average.

 I didn’t realise Brakt was waiting for my input, I thought you said you were going to clarify something. Apologies.

  I’ll be grumpy and sour for a week or a month and maybe I’ll come back to get the belt. I guess I didn’t want it enough.
Vry
Sorcerer 1,743, 260 posts
Advanced Gnome
Shadow's Caress
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 14:55
  • msg #910

Re: OOC Discussion 7

I admire your respect for the ref, Josep, I don't think it's an easy job either!

Josep Gavinho:
I still think that fouls have been handed out like it’s the most normal thing


There is a big difference in how the rules have been written, and in how they're applied, in my opinion. In my last game, I did some rolls that my opponent called out as strictly against the rules (in fact the rules say a foul is awarded for the confusing rolls), but no foul was awarded... And I don't think it would have made a difference had I been fouled either - the rules are harsh enough that once caught I think most people will do their best to not break them or argue about it again (as you did).

But, the rules are rather clear on fouls in some places:
Three Strikes:
Multiple violations during a single match eventually lead a player to disqualification as follows:

48-hour rule:
Failing to post in a timely manner is treated as a foul (see three strikes).

etc.

Do things wrong - get a foul; do things wrong several times - get disqualified, is how I read the rules. Having seen a couple of games, I wouldn't apply them as I read them, but I'm not surprised that they are applied in that way.

It's sad that the championship ended like this. How would you, Arkrim, prefer we go about things if we want to avoid games ending by disqualification (seeing how it here happened by a couple of accidents on Josep's part)? Call more for player correcting stuff, less for ref intervention? Dispute rulings?
This message was last edited by the player at 15:00, Wed 13 Dec 2017.
Brakt
Fighter 1,729, 509 posts
Ogre Fighter
SotVD
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 00:57
  • msg #911

Re: OOC Discussion 7

It's absolutely not how I anticipated the match ending. I'm actually quite disappointed myself, and I reffed it.

I was honestly kinda hoping Arkrim would step in and say I was being too strict, but being a championship match, and being strict from the start, I didn't feel like I could ease off.

Reading back through it, I can see it does almost feel like I was favoring Latro, with not giving a foul for Tiaca casting the quickened rays.  I didn't feel it at the time, since I should of picked up on the fact she had them prepared while prepping sheets.

As for preventing something in the future, maybe we could set a default match rule going forward that any illegal action is simply a lost action, and won't result in a foul?  If we'd had something like that here, I could of quite happily let everything that happened go.
Brakt
Fighter 1,729, 511 posts
Ogre Fighter
SotVD
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 03:16
  • msg #912

Re: OOC Discussion 7

So, I couldn't find anything saying whether losing by DC means you gain 0 rewards, or only 50% rewards.  As such, I've posted declarations with 50% rewards for Josep.
Latro Dectus
Antipaladin 1,794, 1373 posts
Drow N. Antipal/Agn/Oracl
Shadow's Caress
Thu 14 Dec 2017
at 11:27
  • msg #913

Re: OOC Discussion 7

Here's my thinking on this.

It's the championship match. Those participating should know the rules inside and out. There is no room for error and as such the penalties come quick.
Outside the championship I can understand letting a few things slide or skirting the rules some. But by RAW of the arena we really shouldn't be. But the championship is the pinnacle of the competitive side of this particular game and as such should also be the pinnacle of how harshly the rules should be enforced.
If one isn't ready for that, then a championship[ match shouldn't be attempted.
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