Moloch mentioned that only Keth and Photios saw them...

Well, following orders is supposed to take precedence. There is always the chance that the officer has extra information.

I think it is always the soldiers responsibility to follow orders no matter what. EVEN if it becomes apparent that the orders were bullshit or evil - the soldier will still be reprimanded. They sure as hell can't get rewarded.

McCloud and the others will still get in trouble for not following Portia's orders earlier.

Thus the CS plot to sow discord in the ranks of the Tolkeen fighting force continues successfully.

I hope they do not uncover that Silvermasque is a CS spy.  Wooops!

That depends on what legal/rational arguments you think society is following. According to the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi war criminals, soldiers have a moral obligation to disobey orders that they are aware would violate international law and human rights- such as executing unarmed civilians and engaging in slave labor practices.  'I was just following orders' is, under this mindset, an unacceptable argument in an circumstance.

However, legal systems that do not define the world as we do in modern, Western civilization might disagree with that. The Coalition States likely would deem that disobeying orders is a far greater crime then- for example- shooting a fleeing group of unarmed D-Bees. Whether Tolkeen would view things the same way, and for what reasons they would, could define a great deal of their national/military character.

They could argue that in a moral quandry, soldiers which refuse to take a questionable action are laudable- Lazlo would take this tact, as would the International Court in The Hague. They may, like the CS, say that obedience and discipline are desirable. While these soldiers are good people, following their moral instincts, they're likely not cut out for the military life and should be quickly removed from the service (dishonorably) before they damage unit moral and ultimately the mission. Tolkeen is also in the position to argue that, where their force is largely volunteer, largely self trained, and largely mercenary, they have almost no centralized authority over what an individual soldier does and thus, they can hold no one accountable for actions on moral grounds- right or wrong. As the only force in North America with the power to question Tolkeen's military practices (the CS) has already declared open war on them, it would be basically impossible for them to suffer for this approach on an international scale (Lazlo might take offense, but there's not much they can do to demand Tolkeen take moral positions on their actions other then write a sternly worded letter and maybe deny Tolkeen some required trade).

I believe the third approach is most in Tolkeen's character- they're generally disorganized and ready to ascribe blame for their actions on others, and far from moral paragons- but the call is really the GM's to make. But whatever call is made, it is important enough to answer a lot of questions about who and what the characters are fighting for (and against, in my case).

Wow, that got long fast.

Actually a solider can disobey an unlawful order, which means those who didn't follow Portia orders to fire on the farm house (it was full of potential EPOW's, just like the guys who just surrendered to us are) should not be reprimanded.

Now for following an unlawful order (exactly what Comartin and anyone else who fired on the farm house and the potential EPW's) you could end up like the two Marines did in 'A few Good Men.' Sure they followed orders and believed they did the right thing, but morally and ethically they did the wrong thing by following the order to go conduct the code red.

In the US Army, they spell it out very clearly: "I was just following orders" is no excuse. Soldiers are told, in no uncertain terms, that it is their job to know the difference between right and wrong, and disobey any unlawful order, or they will be prosecuted along with their superiors.

In reply to Sarai (msg #49):

This is fantasy and Tolkeen is far from any organized militray it is a huge mercenray force essentailly.  So F regulations, its all a matter of perception and power.

Then why is the GM stressing such issues as not killing EPOW's or murdering some idiot bartender who would't cooperate?

So while Tolkeen may be just a huge mercenary force there are rules and regualtions those troops have to follow.

Only when those who care and have power are present.  Tolkeen's froces aee made up of Demons, necromancers and miscreant pratitioners of magic, as well as those more pure of heart.  The Tolkeen defense forces are a mismatch, and a dragon is going to do what it wants regardless of what rules some Cyber Knight tries to enforce.  Hell, the Cyber Knights themselves may split over Tolkeen.  The morality of this battlefield is made by those present.  The CS at least  possesses codifed rules of engagement and codes of conduct.

Tolkeen forces are on the do what your strength allows and your conscience demands code.

I guess my issue with Sarai's statement was trying to compare the TDF with the US Militray - they are not even close to being the same.

 I think that the issue needs to be looked at from a realpolitik point of view.

 Practically speaking, Tolkeen can't be expected to ride close herd on the legion of DBees, Mercs, Demons and minions it's fielding. But then, no-one really does. Like the C.S. and its 'we're just moving them on' official stance on 'undesirables' that's so often glossed over by people hypnotised by skull iconography, Tolkeen is trying to project a public image for the benefit of a large chunk of its own population and that of other nations.

 That public image includes a willingness to be ruthless, sure - but at the same time when one of its officers publicly blows the brains out of an unarmed man in front of witnesses or when an attempted surrender is dishonoured, thus drastically increasing the odds of brutal 'last stands' by other enemy forces, they have to bring down the hammer because if they don't they hurt themselves more than the enemy. Civilians stop volunteering help and start avoiding them, allies shy away, the 'moral high ground' becomes harder to maintain.

 And the moral is to the physical, etc, etc...

..and yet the GM has runs the Tolkeen forces in such a manner that they follow rules and regulations as it pertains to the killing of innocents and EPOW's.

 Maybe a better analogy would be U.N. Peacekeepers with ToE's set by meat-eaters?

 Or even those late Roman era armies which made extremely heavy use of Auxilia but required that they follow the fundamentals of Roman Military Practice?

 Hell, I don't think any major employer of mercenary and irregular forces in history has just said 'go get 'em, tiger!' if they had any control over said forces at all. ^_^

Just out of curiosity, in which book can I find these codes of conduct?

In reply to Silvermasque (msg #53):

I largely agree with this, with the addendum that as Tolkeen grows more desperate these attempts to impose order become more and more futile and happen less and less often. Of course, that's assuming that events follow the course of the books.

Tolkeen actually needs to work far harder then the CS to enforce a sense of morality in it's troops. Tolkeen lacks the CS' crack propaganda teams, lock step political messaging, ignorant populace, and complete control over media. Every moral failing by Tolkeen is going to be broadcast by secret CS media forces across North America. Places like Lazlo and the Cyber Knights which are largely anti-Coalition for moral reasons are going to be set against Tolkeen if they begin to act like the Coalition.

In this sphere, the Coalition has a distinct advantage. Everyone knows they're monsters and knows it so well they don't care any more. They count a victory every time some one sinks into the mud of the Prosek regime with them. If the CS can make the Cyber Knights split over Tolkeen by amplifying immoral acts by Tolkeen, they've just defeated two enemies. The Warlords know this, and will hopefully act to prevent it.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:04, Sun 28 Nov 2010.

In reply to Drano Pierce (msg #54):

I am not going to tread on the GM.  Just my opinion I guess, and we all know about those :)

Silvermaque/Nate

Hence why the Sorcerers Revenge hurt Tolkeen more than it helped, but they still went through with it.  They knew the dangers and played a game of Ultilltarian ethics.

In reply to Simon Castle (msg #58):

The question would be, do the Tolkeen leaders find the intimidation of a single dead bartender as important to their cause as pushing the entire Coalition Army back for months?

I meant radioed about them

In reply to Keth (msg #60):

I realize you meant 'radioed' but if only Keth and Photios know about them, no one else is going to say anything about them... Unless I missed Keth or Photios sending out a message to the effect of "Uhh boss, we got two flying in from the farm..."

Keth
 player, 43 posts
 Elven Juicer
 Mercenary - Squad One
Wed 24 Nov 2010
at 11:15
PM | rMail | info  [edit] | [delete] | msg #485
Re: The Radio
"This is Keth, i have spotted 2 figures coming from the farm.One of them is human, the other is some sort of reptilian humanoid. I cant make out more"

Ah I see.  I don't typically read the radio thread if I have just finished reading the story thread since most everyone else is just repeating the same thing they typed in the main thread - this was more useful when the Tolkeen group was split into multiple groups/threads.

So I missed your post, my bad.

Yup Keth made the report - nobody commented Keth. In these cases you could PM one of the officers - chances are they missed your post or forgot to respond to it.

The dead bartender would be swept under the carpet. The story would float on with the civilians who witnessed it, and the only other Tolkeen soldier that was present.

The Officer who shot the bartender was reprimanded and busted down to Sergeant.

I would think Tolkeen is also desperate for some of their best officers, and not likely to imprison or dismiss too many of their best.

But this incident with Portia would HAVE had to get her to some sort of trial and every soldier being debriefed. I could see Tolkeen announcing that she will be imprisoned for her crimes - and then send her out anyways as part of some secret ops mission.

If they are willing to use demons in their armies, they are willing to use murderers. So it all comes down to the image for everyone watching.

So killing a bartender is just an easy way to get demoted?

In reply to Moloch (msg #64):

Tolkeen's version of a 'Suicide Squad' (for those familiar with the comic) would be an awesome concept for a game. All the criminals and scum Tolkeen can't employ in their regular forces, sent out to do the crazy, stupid stuff they don't want to expand real forces on, and committing the crimes Tolkeen doesn't want to be held accountable for.

The Coalition is waging a war of genocide and Tolkeen wrings its hands worrying about every little moral quandry. I think its silly personally. Portia was so out of line it was comical but Dyvalis ordering the fire on those troops should not recieve more than a verbal reprimand publicly and a pat on the back privately by Tolkeen command. In a pitched battle between CS forces, Tolkeen traitors, fucking vampires and zombies the force under his command is in no position to recieve prisoners because the battle has likely barely even started. So the other option is to what? Just give them a free pass because they cry uncle at the first sign of real battle. Knowing full well if they are ignored they will immediately regroup, take up arms and press the attack. Dyvalis made not only the best call but a good one.

This game even more than the books illustrates to me why a force as collectively powerful as Tolkeen could lose to the Coalition States. Because on paper it is not even fucking close the CS should be eradicated. Time and again the squads, platoons etc. have been a microcosm of the macrocosm in regards to Tolkeen incompetence. Don't get me wrong because there are talented roleplayers here and that is what makes it even more evident imo. From top down and bottom up Tolkeen is full of nightgown wearing, pencil pushing bookworms who are just a bunch of schmucks trying to play soldier.

Ralph's version of a 'suicide squad' is a pair of CS Juicers nearing last call and a SADM for them to set off.