Apocalypse is an X-Men villain. You are referring to DC's Darkseid who rules the planet Apokalips.

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Yes, the villain revealed was indeed Thanos.

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In the SC/Marvel crossovers years ago, Darkseid even referred to him as "A pale imitation of me" as he confronted him.

I thought the acting was very good..but I thought the writing really wasn't. Just as you said Varsovian, it was very by-the-numbers...and worst of all, Whedon's use of the by-the-numbers ended up being lazy. There wasn't good motivation for a number of the things done which made a number of sequences come off poorly (the Thor/Iron Man fight, for example).

It was poorly motivated, the stakes weren't believable, they end battle didn't match the villain thematics used up to that point, there were some real clunkers of one liners, there were a couple of really bad music cues, almost no character had anything resembling a real character arc...or even any time to express any complex human emotions (Hulk and Black Widow being two exceptions).

The acting was really good. The fight sequences *looked* good (though often poorly motivated). But the movie wasn't as good as it should have been. It wasn't as good as Thor or Captain America, for example.

I have to disagree with you on almost every point, trooper. I thought Avengers was by far the best actual superhero movie. The dialogue was awesome - in particular the timing of the humor was brilliant. I though the stakes - being the end of the world and all - were plenty high enough. I'll ...I'll just leave it at that really.

For me it was the best superhero movie. Several other comic book movies that have been considered great I absolutely detested. So I'm just gonna chock it up to your mileage may vary.

I really enjoyed the movie. Character wise really was best to watch the prequels Thor, Captain America, Iron Man etc. Only Black Widow and the revised-Hulk* needed to give that background. I wouldn't have considered Avengers a stand alone movie anymore than I would Return of Jedi.


* original newer Hulk movies didnt go so well. The new face motion capture techniques hugely improved the ability to have emotions on the CGI character. It was a much needed tune-up to the big green fist.

In reply to Varsovian (msg #16):

To answer your second question.  The scene 2nd "after" scene isn't a big thing, not even a full scene really.  It was supposedly filmed the night of the London premiere, so that might be why the version you saw did not include it (not sure if it got added to the all releases).

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The bit is just a shot, not long, maybe 30 seconds of the Avengers sitting at a table, mostly still in costume, in a slightly damaged resteraunt enjoying a post-fight meal of shawarma.    In case it's not remembered, this is a call out to Tony's mid-fight comment that he didn't know what shawarma was, but suggested that they should all go out for some at a place he noticed a few blocks away from the heart of the battle.

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*chuckles*   I will refrain from trying to argue with anyone who didn't like the Avengers, or was disappointed in it.    After all, many of us are the kinds of nerds who obsess over details in Star Trek, Star Wars, Anime, and any superhero movie that comes out.

It wasn't perfect, goodness knows, and the fact that it was trying to appeal to a larger audience than just the superhero geeks like me meant that it might not have been up to the lofty standards that we would have liked, but that happens with all movies, to be honest.

As much as I loved it, it would be easy to pick things apart, especially after the fact.   The fact that many of us wanted and expected this to be a mind-blowing experience might have caused us to raise the bar too high, as well.

It was a wonderful and fun movie.   I'll try to leave it at that.
(though, as a nerd, I know I'll fail to)

Did anyone spot the two Stan Lee cameos in the movie? I bet no one picked THAT up.

I saw only one.

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The interview with him as the "skeptical guy in the park playing chess" at the end of the movie.

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What as the other one?


I feel bad, having seen it more than once, but obviously missing details.

I wouldn't put it up there as the best superhero movie of all time, but I thought it was better than Thor or Captain America and as good as Iron Man 2 or Spider-Man 2 (and the X-Men movies look pretty poor in comparison).  I wouldn't quite elevate it above The Incredibles or The Dark Knight, though.

I loved the snappy interaction on the helicarrier, and yeah, Mark Ruffalo was great.  The big fight at the end was good, although I kept thinking it was a shorter version of the overlong Chicago brawl in Transformers 3.  The best moments were the character interaction and dialogue

I was a little disappointed in the way the Black Widow was portrayed in parts, but that's Whedon.  He creates bad-ass female characters, but still puts them in the "damsel-in-distress" position.

It didn't seem like a 2 and a half hour movie, though.  It didn't blow me away, but I wasn't disappointed, either.  And my companion, though not a superhero or action fan, couldn't stop talking about the film all day.

No second scene after the credits here in Hong Kong, though.  I'll have to wait to see it when it comes out on DVD.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 16:37, Mon 21 May 2012.

In reply to nuric (msg #26):

It's tough to spot BUT is was one of the NYPD officers running towards the camera when the invasion took place. (Sorry about the mini spoiler) :(

'Parts'? With the exception of

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the part where the Hulk was chasing her, which is understandable since the Hulk is supposed to be unstoppable

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I can't recall her ever being in any distress that she didn't get herself out of.
Unless you mean the times she appeared to be in great distress, then snapped out of it to the surprise of whoever it was that thought they had her. That is a part of Black Widow's character: acting like the damsel in distress in order to get the men to drop their guards. And it worked wonders each time she used it, including

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tricking Loki, who is supposed to be extremely good at deception himself.

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If you mean any time she was ever in any danger at all, well that's just a side effect of being a super spy in the Marvel universe. There's all sorts of dangerous people there, after all. If it was Nick Fury in those situations, he'd be in just as much danger, but I doubt you'd say he was a 'damsel in distress'.

I can see the "damsel in distress" thing with the two times she showed great fear in her two dealings with the Hulk.   Both of those times, though, were very understandable, since she was up close and personal with an unstoppable monster, which could make anyone wet themselves.    I assume that was Whedon's way of conveying how as scary and terrifying the Hulk can be.

It had the unfortunate effect of making it look like Black Widow was the only one scared of the Hulk, though Widow still did her job and didn't back down, showing just how brave she really was.

I'm assuming that Whedon and the writers thought that modern audiences would react more negatively to showing one of the men acting realistically terrified of the Hulk.

Yup, the second Hulk bit was exactly what I was thinking of.  Wheedon writes his strong female characters like that all the time.  The first time when she brings him in was understandable, but she completely freaked out in the helicarrier.  I was going to compare that to how Wasp faced down the Hulk in the first episode of the Ultimates, but then I remembered Hank Pym going after Janet with the bug spray in the same comic, which I guess illustrates the problem in comics in general.  I'm trying to imagine Captain America curled in a fetal position, hiding behind his shield, cowering in a corner, but I'm getting nothing.  Heck, I can't even imagine Agent Coulson acting that way.

No, the interrogation of Loki is a great reversal of that trope, which I loved, and in the initial interrogation, she is in control the whole time.  (But again, that whole scene can be read as a reinforcement of male gender roles, not unlike all of those early Wonder Woman covers).

And did the Avengers pass the Bechdel test?  I don't think the Shield agent ever talked once to the Black Widow.  I'm thinking no.  Maybe Avengers 2 will.  =)
This message was last edited by the user at 07:13, Tue 22 May 2012.

Well, defining realistic is kind of hard with comic book characters, one a god that could go toe to toe with the Hulk, one in a suit of gadgets and some one that (well, ret-conned anyway) has the base power serum that helped form the Hulk that could take an otherwise shattering blow.

And all of them showed a bit of fear at certain point. Plus, Nick Fury took special precaution because he is scared of the Hulk. Plus, Nick's #2 Was very bad ass and did not even come close to Damsel in Distress. And she is less specially trained than Widow.

I would say that one pilot showed how scared a man should be :-)

"Target angry!  TARGET ANGRY!!"

Serves him right for disobeying orders. He was supposed to fire at maximum range. Did it look like maximum range on a fighter jet to you? At least his parachute opened... eventually.

Just to clear up the misconception over why people think its unreasonible that Natasha is scared in her second encounter of Banner where she remains in complete control in the first is two fold.

First Off: Early on Banner lets slip that he attempted suicide. Gun in mouth and the Hulk transformation saved him. So regardless of how good Natasha was with that gun in her first encounter she had ZERO stopping power at the time. Though at that moment she figured she could cap him before he could transform. This belief was ERADICATED by that confession. Her primary weapons are in short summary: ALL COMPLETELY WORTHLESS AGAINST HIM.

Secondly: Natasha is an agility fighter. Beyond the pistols her primary method of combat is a mix of acrobatics and martial arts which requires FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT. So how does this apply to the encounter? She's pinned to the deck by heavy peices of metal. Very hard to avoid a raging behemoth tearing the hellicarrier apart around you if you're already pinned to the floor not ten feet from certain death. GO FIGURE SHE'S SCARED. Even if the Hulk didn't go directly for her the chances of him ripping a hole in the carrier in his escape and her falling to her death is still a reasonibly high chance...and unlike the other avengers she's still human. Capt America might be able to grab something on his way out and hang on, but no matter how 'trained' a regular person is...you get sucked out of a plane....you get sucked out of a plane.

I'm not sure which of us you're referring to, but I was completely understanding of Natasha being scared of the Hulk.   It would be like having a T-Rex locked in a small room with you, only with the T-Rex having more muscular arms.
Freaking Terrifying.

I was just commenting that it was unfortunate that she was the only one allowed to show profound fear, of all the regular Avengers (though I suppose it couldn't really be helped, as she was the only "human" one left among them, since Cap was an enhanced human, Thor was a god, Hawkeye was indisposed, and Iron Man was a raging egomaniac).

But, yes, having her showing fear was actually a very realistic thing, since it was the only reasonable response, even for a seasoned spy, to being that close to the Hulk.

Also, remember that she was also very scared in the first encounter, even when she was holding a gun on him (and still thought it would work).   This is also very realistic, and I thought it worked well.
Again, perhaps I was just a little sensitive to "the girl gets to be the scared one".    But perhaps it couldn't be helped.

Of course it could be helped. Hawkeye is the other one of the team who is just a regular human...and he's never used so show just how scary the Hulk is.

In reply to trooper6 (msg #37):

*grins*  True enough.  I was saying earlier, though, that your average "Joe Moviegoer" would be a lot more accepting of a woman who is scared and then tried to kick butt, as opposed to a man doing it.  It's sad, but it's a truism of our society, at least for the time being.

If they had switched Hawkeye and Widow's roles in the movie.  We'd be getting people saying that they are showing that women are weak willed and easily controlled.

Good point.    There is no perfect answer, certainly, which is why I was happy with how they'd done it.

On the subject of fear: I may be mistaken, but didn't Iron Man show a bit of fear before landing at Stark Tower and going for a chat with Loki?

Yeah, if I remember right, he wasn't expecting things to go at all well.

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And when Loki was about to try to use his mind control staff on him, Tony was visibly worried before that glorious "tink" sounded.

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and we get to see the Avenger Tower and HQ.