Wyrm
 member, 642 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 04:04
What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 1043):

I find it can ruin it for others to go that route. I had a character that had a few secrets (all drow game, go figure) and the first thing the bard's player does in the game? Use bardic knowledge to learn everyone's secrets five minutes in. From that point on, I had a little notepad with fake info titled "bardic cheater".
Lord_Johnny
 member, 248 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 04:16
What? Why can't you....? UGH!
Yeah, I'm not saying that anything under thr sun should go. I am saying that if someone wants something to be different than RAW, they need to specify that ahead of time. Otherwise, RAW should be followed, instead of making up lame excuses.

Especially when the RAW is part of how the mechanics are meant to work to begin with, and are fundamental to magic items. I can't get more specific than that without getting into a specific example that has me ticked, but when you're essentially destroying an entire category of magic items, you (general, not to either of you specifically) either need to nacho up, or shut up, because frankly it's bull.
V_V
 member, 644 posts
 You can call me V, just V
 Life; a journey made once
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 04:34
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 1043):

SunRuanEr:
It's important to note that the first rule is often 'The GM is always right'.

Ignore this, Lord_Johnny

Unless it's a solo game, the players make the majority. Don't let a GM tell you it's their game, it's largely not, it's for the players, and is at best/worst half their game. Nothing more.

I agree wholeheartedly, and as a rules lawyer myself, I despise being associated with people who make crap up. I do sometimes, TBH, but like you said, it's in the home rule section. That's WHY you have rules, so people have expectations and consistency. Yeah, that really bugs me too. I consider those people far from rules lawyers. They're the people who make up rules as kids when they're losing, and never stopped. :S

The only consolation I can give you is it's possible they don't know how infuriating that is. Or maybe they made a mistake? Probably not, but I for one usually make mistakes and have to be told "Hey, btw V, that's not how I read it" and I go "Oh no! You're right. My bad". For instance, in D&D 3.5, I thought summon spells had SR. They don't. I was thinking of Mage's Sword, which does, and ruled that golems made them vanish. A player calmly told me I was wrong (though they were a little hurt and upset--rightfully) and I quickly fixed it, or rather said I was going to, since we're on hiatus and that's slightly where we left off.

But certainly, if you have a rulebook, USE IT! Us Dyvers mage players had an expression "RTFM" (Read the fruiting manual). If you want to amend parts, know the book well enough to say what you change, or expect players like us to get upset.

So, yeah, you're preaching to the choir. I hate that crap. :S

This message was last edited by the user at 04:43, Mon 27 Nov.

SunRuanEr
 member, 62 posts
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 15:39
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
V_V:
Unless it's a solo game, the players make the majority. Don't let a GM tell you it's their game, it's largely not, it's for the players, and is at best/worst half their game. Nothing more.

On RPoL, the GM is responsible entirely for the game. He/She is responsible for obeying the rules (or they get punished), they are responsible for enforcing the rules (or they get punished), and they are largely responsible for making sure that their players are having a good time (or they get punished by losing players). That makes it their game. Their baby. Their responsibility.

That means that regardless of what you think about the rules as written, if a GM says 'No', that's their call to make. You can argue that perhaps they should have put that in their house rules beforehand, but it's practically impossible to have house rules written that cover EVERY possible scenario until it occurs. Some scenarios won't even come UP without specific groupings of PCs/Enemies/Plot points, which only the GM is aware of, so players are often arguing against a GM's decision without all of the relevant facts that went into making it. You can try to discuss it with the GM, you can lay out your reasoning for why you think X, Y, or Z should be allowed, but at the end of the day, it's the GM's game and it's the GM's call.

Period.

If you don't want to play by their rules/rulings, don't play in their game.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15471 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 17:11
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 1048):

Yep, as far as games run on RPoL go, and as far as the management of this site is concerned, when a GM tells you it's his game, he is entirely correct.  He sets it up, an is responsible for every aspect of it.
Martel
 member, 14 posts
 D&D, Free-form, Original,
 and Fandom-based RP
Mon 27 Nov 2017
at 17:11
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
quote:
If you don't want to play by their rules/rulings, don't play in their game.


Agreed, but the individual you're addressing is a proudly-proclaimed "rules lawyer," a pejorative label applied to people who try to redirect another person's ideas to better suit their own, at the expense -- not just of that person (GM) -- but of everyone else at the table. They assume that the way they want the game to go, is the way everyone does. When it comes to individuals at the table, the one who put the game together, designed it, and advertised for players is the only one with any reasoned right to assume that.

The players outnumber the GM, but can't hold a candle to the level of time and effort put into running a half-decent campaign. I've met GMs who put more effort into each NPC than the average player puts into their lone character.

I go as far as making languages, mapping weather patterns, and describing ancient civilizations for anything from a one-shot on up; I do it because I enjoy it, but it adds to the experience. Don't hold up the game questioning one convenient application of a rule; you just went left at that last crossroads. There goes 16 hours of my hard work, and the only redeeming factor is that you'd have nullified even more if you'd gone the other way.

This message was last edited by the user at 17:13, Mon 27 Nov.

V_V
 member, 647 posts
 You can call me V, just V
 Life; a journey made once
Tue 28 Nov 2017
at 09:11
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
I sometimes don't know why I answer to the vent thread. People draw way too much from a post, that wasn't even one I originated.

I was trying to show solidarity to Lord_Johnny. Be supportive.Most people seem to want sympathy in the vent thread, not have you play the devil's advocate. I since Rmailed Lord_Johnny. The GM was a jerk. It's okay, you didn't know. Some GMs are.

As for being a rule lawyer. I do it pro-bono. I believe the rules can be tweaked. Yeah, I agree with that. Not everything can be accounted for. The rulebook is there for people to get an idea of the "realism" within the confines of the game world. Their character would have this stuff down pat, the player is trying to catch up. I don't subvert the rules, or lord them over anyone. I represent them to everyone in the game. If they don't like that, I'm in the wrong place, for me, and for them. I'm not wrong, and you're entitled to being right too. It's subjective.

As for it being the GM's game. You misunderstand me. I'm not sure I can explain, but I'll try. Simply put, the board is the GM's. They have access to all the deleting, and adding, and naming and enforcing of site's rules. Sure. Fine. Agreed. The idea is not there's. You're free to rip the parts you want, look for a better GM, and move on. Look it up! Sometimes it's in bad taste, but it's 100% allowed. It's also in bad taste to be a jerk to your players.

For the example of Lord-Johnny, the GM actually wasM what you define as a rules lawyer. He said "It's there. You didn't read it" Ctrl+F proved the GM was full of it. The player, Lord_Johnny, wasted days working to get the submission right. The GM couldn't take five minutes to see it was his error. I call BS. Clearly the disparity of work was in the GM's favor.

You disagree though. That;s fine. You don't have to speak about me as "the person you're addressing". I take offense to that label of rules lawyer. There's a different word I use instead of lawyer, and it's quite clearly negative connotation.

Anyway, I was trying to identify with, be encouraging to, John_Johnny. If you don't like that, don't respond. *shrugs*
Eggy
 member, 767 posts
Tue 28 Nov 2017
at 23:26
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
December is right around the corner and I want to have all the egg nog and cinnamon snacks. But I've only started training for my first marathon yesterday. It's too early for treats. I'm always telling my friends "you can't outrun your fork" and now I'm trying to rationalize it. :c
Tyr Hawk
 member, 340 posts
 You know that one guy?
 Yeah, that's me.
Tue 28 Nov 2017
at 23:45
Counting Down
I've been busy for the last few months. Busier than I think I've been in years. Every day there's something new to do, and those things always take at least a week to complete, whether it's because it's actually a long project, or because I just can't put aside any time for those things for a week or more. Group presentations. Pointless forms. Holiday planning. A moment to breathe. The list goes on and on and on.

I'm usually good about managing my time. I carve out some time for me despite all the demands on that time. School. Work. Writing a novel. Gaming. Family. Cleaning the apartment. More school. More work. Sleep. Showers. Making dinner. I can do a lot and still not feel overwhelmed. I can fit in an incredible amount into a small space, both physically and temporally, but the last few months have been kicking me so hard that I just don't know how to keep juggling things. I'm mixing metaphors, I know. You'll have to forgive me.

Part of the problem is my own. I accept responsibilities, and I put myself into situations I probably shouldn't to help people. But I like helping people. So I do it because, believe it or not, the stress for those things is outweighed by the good feeling that comes from being the person to help someone else get things done. Usually. But the other part of the problem is that right now I feel like I'm drowning in things that are being piled up around me that I have no control over, and I don't have time to add in those helpful projects, or to finish them to get the reward of having done some good. Things just keep piling on and on and on...

Add to this pileup a general lack of sleep, soreness in bad places to have soreness, a lack of exercise (because I don't have the time thanks to certain projects which can only happen when I would normally be getting my exercise), and my inability to stop worrying for even a dozen seconds at a time, and I feel like I'm just a ticking bomb, waiting to explode. I might explode in a minute, or in an hour, or in three days, which would really suck because, well...

It's going to drop off this weekend. Two of the most-massive projects and time-suckers in my life are going to be finished on Friday, come Heck or Knee-High Socks with Sandals, and that's going to give me so much more time than I can't even begin to count all of it. I'm going to be finishing several other projects around that time too (if all goes well), and I'm going to be able to get back to doing things on a schedule my body and mind can handle. I'm just so afraid I'm going to explode before then that... I guess I thought that venting here would help me somehow. Release some steam, you know? I don't even have time for this vent, but I had to do it so I wouldn't try to gouge my own eyes out. Not that I think I'd ever actually be able to do it, but I felt like it might help at the time.

Anyways, thanks for reading, if you did, and thanks in advance for any sympathy, because I don't know if I'll have the time to check back here before it's over to see it. I probably will, but who knows? Maybe in an hour I'll get another project... *sighs and heads back to life*
Eggy
 member, 768 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2017
at 00:08
Counting Down
If something else comes up, can you decline without it becoming a problem? I hope so. Maybe in the coming months you can schedule some Selfish Tyr Time. Take care.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1154 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Wed 29 Nov 2017
at 00:32
Counting Down
Last night my friends cat died. Was sick, throwing up type stuff, but otherwise seemed ok. Then suddenly dead.
As such I have volenteered to take her other cat to the vet next friday. HE looks sick, losing fur and weight (or maybe just the fur, it's hard to tell with him as he had pretty thick fur before). I don't want to chance loosing another furry friend.


Tyr, hang in there, it is sure to get better but not till after the beginning of the new year. From my own experiences that is generally how such things work out. (Like around Feburary.)
Brianna
 member, 2142 posts
Wed 29 Nov 2017
at 22:39
Counting Down
Tyr: Try to say 'no', especially in the next while till you recover some stamina.  Though I suppose that will leave you with the 'must do' projects, and no time for the 'help others' ones that you really enjoy, but do try!  Sometimes 'me first' is necessary for you to be able to help others later.

Shado: I hope you mean this coming Friday, that would be plenty far enough off.  Especially since the other cat died, apparently unexpectedly, this cat's illness sounds like a serious emergency to me.  Hope all goes well!  And if he had a lot of fur, you should be able to tell if he's losing a lot, it would be all over the place.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1155 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Wed 29 Nov 2017
at 23:20
Counting Down
Cat fur is Always all over the place, they shed lots. But poor Tigger's hair is so short now it feels like a buzz cut when I go to pet him.
Appointment is set for This Friday at 2pm with my own vet. (she tends to go to the cheapest places possible where as I go for people with some of the best recommendations, especially from other vets.)
Wyrm
 member, 643 posts
Thu 30 Nov 2017
at 14:14
Counting Down
My first instinct tells me the food
Lord_Johnny
 member, 251 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2017
at 12:44
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 1048):

No one said it wasn't their game. I said that people (which is more than just GM's by the way) want something done a certain way when contrary to what the actual rules say, then they need to put that down. Because, frankly, going off half cocked about something that someone can't know about is fruiting balloon squids 

So, I will try to be polite here, but let me be a little pointed. Can you please actually stick to what I and others are saying rather than trying to bring points that aren't in contention at all into conversation in a manner that attempts to show how wrong I (and those that have been agreeing with me) am? You're not helping the situation at all, and it's really fruiting annoying.
Lord_Johnny
 member, 252 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2017
at 12:44
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to V_V (msg # 1051):

To be concise, thank you.
Lord_Johnny
 member, 253 posts
Sat 2 Dec 2017
at 12:50
Re: What? Why can't you....? UGH!
In reply to Martel (msg # 1050):

Yeah....no. To all of that. It has nothing to do with the situation at all. If you want to have a home rule fine. Let people know about it. For instance, I do home rules a LOT. I think they make the game better/more fun. However, I also note down the house rules I use so that people can see them, and understand what is expexted of them. If I dont, then it is my fault that they didn't abide by them. Responsibility cuts both ways.

This message was last edited by the user at 16:33, Sat 02 Dec.

aguy777
 member, 238 posts
 Join Date:
 Fri, 29 Nov, 2013
Fri 8 Dec 2017
at 14:39
That Feeling
I always feel absolutely horrible every time I close one of my games, even if I had perfectly valid reasons (or what I think is valid reasons) to do so. Just makes me feel like I'm letting the players down.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1156 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Sat 9 Dec 2017
at 22:25
That Feeling
In reply to aguy777 (msg # 1062):

Me to.
V_V
 member, 649 posts
 You can call me V, just V
 Life; a journey made once
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 01:58
That Feeling
In reply to aguy777 (msg # 1062):

I'm in the same boat. Even more so, because I feel I'm letting myself down too. I'm really lucky to have quite a bit of time (not having a full-time job) but even I only spent a few hours on RPoL at a time. I wish I could explore all the stories and levels of play. I want to! I just lose focus if I try. I'm a slow GM on RPoL taking over and hour to just post a reply to a combat action.

I'm am mostly guilty for letting the players down. I'm fortunate to have engaged players that post almost every time I do. I wish I didn't let them down.

It is important, more important, to set a limit, for RL purposed if nothing else. IT happens on RPoL. most of the time for the system I GM, actually. So I try to keep that in mind. GMing D&D is very miss and hit.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1157 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 17:22
That Feeling
I started a new game - Finally got everyone to do their opening post and I find myself blanking on what I need to post to get the game actually going.

I am hoping once the new year madness is past I will be able to focus enough to actually start playing. (It's a 1st level game of people who are the children of adventurers starting out on their own adventures. Gave them 1 advantage in that each got 1 magic item of minor to middling power, like a +1 sword, a bag of holding etc. Depending on character class (the thief got a modified Handy Haversack I call the Merchants Bag, bigger pouches basically but not overly powerful in and of itself) for example.
icosahedron152
 member, 822 posts
Tue 12 Dec 2017
at 17:35
That Feeling
Unfortunately, ShadoPrism, if you haven't got your game rolling way before Christmas, let alone New Year, you may find your players are no longer around.

Patience may be a virtue, but it is one that is in short supply, I find, and it sounds like you've had problems motivating them already, without a 3-4 week hiatus to disenchant them.

Pull out all the stops, get the game rolling, and hit them with something that has them itching to return after the break.

Or start a new game in the New Year. I doubt if a third option really exists.
V_V
 member, 650 posts
 You can call me V, just V
 Life; a journey made once
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 06:01
Re: That Feeling
ShadoPrism:
I started a new game - Finally got everyone to do their opening post and I find myself blanking on what I need to post to get the game actually going.


If they've slowed their posting, give them one or two imperative actions; like "kill", "save" or "destroy". I recommend not stringing it out. The more immediate the better. Whatever the plot is, don't warm up to it, get to the fun part, save the exposition for if they ask questions. If you need to slow down for the players, you'll know.

My (one) game would start before Christmas, but we're still in char gen, and I have to help my roommate with her finals. Even then, when the group is ready, I'll start the meet and greet, and have some immediate action (a cake walk for them) to keep them engaged. My aim is to let the players, even at 1st level, feel important. I have an annoying NPC that will be begging to get his butt kicked, and have some range to give him time to talk, before getting shot and run down.


Spoiler for my 2 cents: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Let the players be in control, and don't give them pre-failed actions (like the peasant already dies) but put NPCs in danger, and have the baddies (goblins, orcs, bandits) engaged verbally  to rile up the PCs. Then let the PCs kick butt, give them some damage, but stack the favor for the PCs.

Or, alternatively, have a social scene is the players' seem, more that style. Maybe an NPC really needs to get something off their chest, and asks for consolation. Maybe a mapmaker was going to buy some exotic ink, but it was bought/stolen by someone else.So the PCs track down the merchant/thief and get the mapmaker the ink.



But yeah, I would definitely get the ball rolling, for whatever you have planned and KISS. At least for the first outing. :)
ShadoPrism
 member, 1158 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Wed 13 Dec 2017
at 18:14
Re: That Feeling
Had this same group for almost 3 years. This is not the longest pause we have had in that time.
V_V
 member, 652 posts
Fri 15 Dec 2017
at 09:58
Re: That Feeling

This message was deleted by the user at 10:05, Fri 15 Dec.