Vane66
 member, 755 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 08:14
Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
When creating a character you can pick between having a sidekick or minions in advantages. Which one is better?

For each point in Minions it increases the minion PL or the number of minions. For 3 points you can have a PL 3 minion with 45 PP to build with. On the slip side of that, Sidekicks are One PL below the character I believe and each point give them 5PP to build.

It's far more expensive to have a sidekick but is it worth it compared to just having an army of minions?
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 100 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 14:45
Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
It doesn't increase the PL, that's determined by the ratios and capped by the rules

It increases the points.

And you simply should ask, do you need a minion who can't be swayed by social skills and won't be knocked out immediately?
Vane66
 member, 756 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 17:41
Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
For 2 points per level minions are fanatical and can't be swayed.

Although your sidekick can always be swayed, they are an independent character, unlike minions you don't control their actions.

Now minions are glass cannon but I thought they only got knocked out immediately with a critical. Can't you take heroic minions so that they aren't immediately knocked out?
Varsovian
 member, 1317 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 18:25
Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Wouldn't that defeat the whole point of Minions? This advantage is meant to simulate crowds of low-powered troopers, not fully-developed characters...
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 102 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 19:07
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Vane66:
For 2 points per level minions are fanatical and can't be swayed.


Yes they would be fanatical, as sidekicks are fanatical and heroic minions that's the only difference. So a heroic fanatical minion is a sidekick.

Any other twists you put on them are your own house rules
Vane66
 member, 757 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 20:05
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
I recall that sidekicks were loyal to their hero but if abused/mistreated or somehow convinced, they could turn against the hero.

I guess my problem is that it boils down to the horrible exchange rate for points. 1 for 5 or 1 for 15. You could have an entire glass cannon army or one (or a couple) weaker ones that can take a beating.

Now can minions handle normal civilians or do they fail in that regards as well?
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 103 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 20:28
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
It's not really a bad trade because a minion who is fanatic and heroic (a sidekick) costs 3 points per 15pp just like a sidekick
Vane66
 member, 758 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 20:36
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
I guess but a sidekick still isn't fanatical, they can be turned against the hero. I mean look at Batman's sidekicks, nearly all of them have turned against him at some point.

At what point would you convert a Minion to Sidekick or perhaps a Sidekick to a full character, giving the character back the points of course.
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 104 posts
Sat 31 Dec 2016
at 21:29
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
In reply to Vane66 (msg # 8):

Except they are . . .

I'm telling you what the rules say, what Batman's sidekicks did has zero bearing on that (they aren't M&M characters)

"You have another character serving as your partner and aide. Create your sidekick as an independent character with (rank × 5) power points, and subject to the campaign’s power level limits. A sidekick’s power point total must be less than yours. Your sidekick is an NPC, but automatically fanatically loyal to you (provided you treat your sidekick fairly and well). Gamemasters should generally allow you to control your sidekick, although sidekicks remain NPCs and the GM has final say in their actions . . . . Sidekicks are not minions, but full-fledged characters, so they are not subject to the minion rules."

The relevant text, pg 64 of Core Rulebook. If we're talking 3rd ed, the text doesn't change still

This message was last edited by the user at 00:40, Sun 01 Jan.

willvr
 member, 1015 posts
Sun 1 Jan 2017
at 03:04
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
If you were really going to simulate actual comic heroes according to the rule system; I -suspect- that Batman's 'sidekicks' weren't actual sidekicks according to the rules. A lot seemed able to hold their own for a short time; so they were probably actual full characters who joined later on, and so didn't have as many points to play with.

But in general; when taking stuff from licensed products and inserting it into a system, you would have to make certain sacrifices to make it work; as there's the difference between 'telling a story' and 'playing an RPG'.
Vane66
 member, 759 posts
Sun 1 Jan 2017
at 08:19
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Now is there a limit to how many Sidekicks or Minions you can have? or is that purely up to the GM?
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 105 posts
Wed 4 Jan 2017
at 03:07
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
In reply to Vane66 (msg # 11):

There's no limit in M&M but most GMs won't let you go beyond 5, 10 or maybe 25 minions. Mecha and Manga has a nice swarm/horde mechanic for larger numbers
Sir Swindle
 member, 133 posts
Thu 5 Jan 2017
at 19:52
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Vane66:
At what point would you convert a Minion to Sidekick or perhaps a Sidekick to a full character, giving the character back the points of course.


When you get a new guy at the table that wants to take over one of them as a character.

I'm playing a character in a long running game that uses basically super minions (he's a weird summoner thing) but they are buffed up to the point that you can't much tell the difference between them and a normal warrior type.

I had considered using Sidekick to build the Wonder Twins if you put the maximum points into sidekick then they can be built along mostly the same lines as the base character. Technically your DM would be in control of the 'Sidekick' but most of the time you could run him as your second character.
T.S.
 member, 197 posts
 I stand in noone's shadow
 except my own...
Thu 5 Jan 2017
at 21:41
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Vane66:
I guess but a sidekick still isn't fanatical, they can be turned against the hero. I mean look at Batman's sidekicks, nearly all of them have turned against him at some point.


If you look at the mechanics of how Sidekicks work in M&M and how Batman generally treated his sidekicks, I'm pretty sure that they would say they had been abused/mistreated/etc if asked. So, in that regard, the M&M ruling for losing Sidekicks is pretty accurate.
Flint_A
 member, 576 posts
Tue 10 Jan 2017
at 14:35
Re: Mutants and Masterminds Question: Sidekicks or Minions?
Here's what my 3E book says:

There's no way to make a minion heroic, although yes a +2 modifier would be fair because 15/3=5/1. (The book doesn't say so specifically, it just isn't listed anywhere.)

Sidekicks are automatically helpful and loyal (there isn't even a caveat for treating them poorly in 3E) and GM should let you play them but doesn't have to and has final say.

Minions, IF capable of independent thought, are automatically helpful. No word on who plays them.

The problem with minions is that they die from a stiff breeze, so they're much more useful for non-combat stuff. (Besides, skill ranks or stuff like communication effects are way cheaper than damage effects.) Seriously, any non-minion can take out a minion on a routine check. Several at once, if they have the proper advantages or an area attack. (Minions attacking  minions have to make a normal hit, but still one-shot each other.)

Now, per the rules, if you've paid for something then it's yours. So if the GM kills your minion, he either refunds the points or lets you replace the minion in a reasonable time period. Still, if that happens constantly, you'll both be annoyed.

Instead, if you want lots of small things going into combat, go for summons. A bit more expensive, but much more expendable and they have lots of nifty options.

Another thing you can do is get a nice vehicle. Now, it can't actually think, or it would be a sidekick...that you can ride in. However, with the autopilot and computer features (Gadget Guide: Vehicles) it could reasonably fight without requiring an action from you. (If the GM doesn't buy that, go with protections that are always on and attacks that trigger on reaction.) Yes, they cost as much as a sidekick, but you can actually have an array of vehicles. I'm pretty sure no GM would allow an array of sidekicks. Also, vehicles are not limited to "common technology" like other equipment.

You can also make an array for headquarters housing intelligent AIs and orbital defences, but at that point you're not really playing any more.