horus:
A lot of it boils down to a clear understanding among all members of a group, players and GM alike, and some maturity and civility at the table, especially when things do not go "your way". (It's, if anything, even more important for the GM than for the players.)
I think what I'm poking at is that it's possible for a game to consist almost entirely of different "ways" that would all be interesting to the players, if not the characters. No one necessarily has to encounter an outcome that they don't enjoy.
horus:
I didn't mean to imply there was a secret switch that could be flipped in every case (even if, in review, it looks like that's what I did). Sometimes avoiding difficulty is just what real adventurers should do.
Well, sort of. If one was going to be real about it, there wouldn't be any adventurers, not in the usual Tolkienish way. The premise of most games is preposterous, because without that it's just real life.
"What real adventurers should do" is not always the driving force. "Is it interesting while being plausible" is more what I go for, and what I hope my players go for.
horus:
How the characters die, how their players handle their deaths, will depend in large part on the believability of the situation.
Arguably. It's important to realize that how believable something is has a lot to do with how much the players want it to be believable. For some, Star Trek is ridiculous, and so every dramatic moment is also ridiculous. There are those that do vast amounts of work to fill in what the show doesn't, because they
want it to be believable. They're bought in.
horus:
Me? I'm the guy who will sometimes ask, "Hey, did you say that in-character? Are you certain?" just to confirm I heard what I thought I heard before locking an action in and reacting to it.
My ideal (not always achievable) is that the GM doesn't need to ask that, because the players are interested in every outcome the GM might deliver - not because they are interested in
every possible outcome, but because the GM will only deliver interesting outcomes (for whatever that means at a given table).
horus:
The GM is more than a combat engine - he or she brings fairness and rightness to the game.
Agreed. RPGs work because they are tailorable, on the fly.
horus:
Yes, there are players in every group who play "to win", to become as powerful and as wealthy as they can, or to kill another player's character at every session to savor the schadenfreude. We call these by many names, most of which have unpleasant connotations.
They don't have to be considered problematic, necessarily. I believe that unless a person is a sociopath, there is a type of game they would buy into and help make work, and other likeminded people to join them. There are games, or at least approaches to games, that are about "winning" and becoming as powerful and wealthy as they can
horus:
here are ways and there are ways of dealing with this, just as there are ways and there are ways of dealing with character death or debilitating permanent injury.
Or of making the stakes about something else entirely.
Mrrshann618:
This is the crux of my comment. What did the player expect? would a foot be any worse? By choosing to loose a limb they were voluntarily placing those feats at risk. This was a voluntary situation. This places the example of the instances I gave as a plausible end goal for the character.
Oh, I see. My apologies. I hope that part gets explained a bit further.
Novocrane:
Can't speak for anyone else, and it doesn't feel appropriate for all games, but I want (for instance) Only War to be more of a meatgrinder in pbp than it otherwise might be.
This was a great example, thanks. Sometimes if the game
isn't brutal,
that's what's disappointing. This is important to realize.
I think that some games, particularly the various incarnations of D&D, have in their attempts to be broadly appealing, not made adequately clear what their intent was. I know that when I started, I saw that everything had stats to let you know how hard it was to kill and how much it could hurt you, and so I assumed that the game was primarily about fighting various things. But that was only part of it, and so my group and I had to adjust some things, like starting hit points, to make the game do better what we thought it had been designed to do.
Years later, I was keyed into the concept that, no, it's not about fighting everything, but about picking one's battles, maybe not fighting at all, and making off with the treasure, which tended to be a richer source of XP anyway. I'm not entirely convinced that that was the whole intent either, but my point is that people can read the same set of rules and come away with drastically different ideas of how its designers meant it to be played.
I can't really think of a single game older than about 2005 that does much in the way of addressing what we're talking about here. WEG Star Wars talked a lot about tone and fudging and making the players sweat before ultimately succeeding and surviving. It wasn't until 4th Edition D&D that the DMG suggested, hey, maybe set things up so that the PCs can fail, but that failure doesn't bring things to a screeching halt.
If just one of the games I played early on had said something like "Characters are expected to die and here's how we intend for that not to ruin the fun" instead of patching things with
Raise Dead and leaving it for each table to figure it out, I think I would be a lot less frustrated with this hobby.
facemaker329:
But we all knew, going into the game, that characters would, indeed, die.
...
Same group, same players, same GM...Star Wars. I don't think any of us played with the thought that 'I can't die in this game', but we also understood that, short of gross stupidity on the part of the player, the odds of dying were incredibly slim...because it's not that kind of game.
Two great examples. Thanks. The Aliens game sounds like it worked in part because there wasn't (correct me if I'm wrong) much sting to death. You knew not to get attached, and though you fought hard, you let them go when the game called for it. Do I have that right?00
facemaker329:
By the same token, just because you, as GM, have said that 'bad times' are possible, don't try to create situations to inflict them...they should come along as naturally as the good times, and if the players are smart enough or lucky enough to avoid them, let it unfold that way
Maybe. I think we've seen here that that varies. A suicide mission seems entirely appropriate for Only War. The players can approach it cleverly, and probably would have to in order to succeed, but there would be no way
not to make it a suicide mission. That would be baked in, and the players (if they understood the game) would eagerly shepherd it in, when it was time.
If players are maxing out their cleverness to avoid there being a real likelihood of "bad things," that's usually when I pause the game to find out what kinds of "bad things" would they spend less effort on trying to avoid, so I can prepare those instead of the stuff they keep sidestepping.
facemaker329:
Some people turn to RPGs for escapism, and they don't want that kind of 'bad' in their RPG life. And there's nothing wrong with that...it's the way they want to play. If that's not the way you, as a GM, run your game, you should make that known up front, so they (and you) aren't disappointed when it comes along.
Agreed. I think most of us are in violent agreement here. I like wrestling with the ideas, though.