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Domain Level Games.

Posted by GreenTongue
GreenTongue
member, 785 posts
Game Archaeologist
Thu 30 Mar 2017
at 17:55
  • msg #1

Domain Level Games

Has anyone ever played or ran a domain level game here?
How did it work?

Like Pendragon' Lordly Domains as an example of what I mean.

How hard is it to hold interest? What needs to happen to keep interest?

For those that have done it, what worked? what didn't?

I have tried two here and think there needs to be another way I just haven't thought of.
Togashi Kenshin
member, 8 posts
Thu 30 Mar 2017
at 18:15
  • msg #2

Domain Level Games

If you mean games where the PCs control a nation, city or other polity then yes there have been some in the past. The god games are also a variation of this theme and I saw one being advertised only a couple of months ago. From what I can observe, the greatest problems tend to be GM burnout and breakaway PCs which are problems many gamers are familiar with but are exacerbated by the format.

You see for the GM they basically have to keep track of statistics for the whole world map. What every kingdom is doing, what kind of policies they are enacting, troop movements, finances, relations, etc. Even if only PC nations are around, the amount of bookkeeping is horrendous. This might be fun for the PCs but for the GM it is a lot of number crunching and that is not necessarily fun.

The breakaway PC is someone who by luck or skill has arrived at a commanding position and the game now becomes less the Great Game of Thrones and more Talk Softly and Walk with A Big Stick. If the PC is of the mind to conquer other nations then the only thing the others can do is to band together to stop him. In any case you are going to be short one or more player nations soon. If a plurality or worse a majority of PCs form a coalition then you will be basically running a World War campaign sooner or later. Either that or everyone joins the coalition and you have to invent some sort of threat so that it is not just turn after turn of just seeing numbers get bigger.

I am contemplating of running a D&D campaign with kingdom building elements but I am seriously weighing how much of the campaign will focus on it.
icosahedron152
member, 745 posts
Thu 30 Mar 2017
at 21:54
  • msg #3

Domain Level Games

I think you have two really good points there, TK. Provided you catch it early enough, you can perhaps do something to prevent PC breakaway (though if your intervention is obvious, you could lose the player).

However, there is no real way around GM burnout apart from finding (or devising) a set of rules that allows players (and GMs) to manage domain games realistically with minimal effort. If anyone finds such a rule set, please let me know!

The problem, of course, is that running a nation is complex, and any ruleset that represents it with any veracity is also going to be complex. And, as you say, the GM has to run every nation on the map.

Because of the complexity, and the typical length of domain campaigns, you also need to find some very special players - people who are prepared to spend years in a single game, people who are comfortable with mathematics, people for whom managing their own domain is more important than painting the map, for whom playing is more important than winning.

There is usually far too much effort involved, for players and GM. There are easier ways to get your gaming kicks. That is what you need to overcome to make a domain game work.

Unfortunately, it's like saying all you need to explore the universe is a decent faster-than-light drive. The solution is obvious. Creating that solution is pretty much impossible. :(
C-h Freese
member, 259 posts
Survive - Love - Live
Thu 30 Mar 2017
at 21:58
  • msg #4

Domain Level Games

"political science" wargaming, I think at one point worked with computer spread sheets, much like the Military.
GreenTongue
member, 786 posts
Game Archaeologist
Thu 30 Mar 2017
at 23:13
  • msg #5

Domain Level Games

Yes. Good points.
I had thought of separating the players into positions within a single kingdom.
As in:
Chamberlain - They are responsible for the affairs of their Lord's immediate household, and the family.

Steward - They attend to the general management of the estates and lands of the house.

Constable - Oversees all military matters, including the mustering, equipping and training of the knights and soldiers, and the maintenance and fortification of all castles and defenses.

Chancellor - They judge over contracts, the payment of amercement and fines, and the order in which creditors should rank. They are the king's representative charged with the application of justice.

Seneschal - They control their Lord's finances, holding their purse and managing revenues and expenditure.

This way, with a weak King/Queen, it is more of a political game than just number crunching.

A single Domain instead of multiple to reduce the paperwork.
Each playing to be "The Power Behind the Throne".

I'm afraid for it to actually work you would need a lot of players so diplomacy options would abound.
icosahedron152
member, 746 posts
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 06:13
  • msg #6

Domain Level Games

You would also need an even more perfect mix of perfect players. As well as a lot of them.

In the game you envisage there - which would no doubt be entertaining for the GM - players are no longer master of their own domain, they are potentially going to be sidelined by activity focused elsewhere.

Without a lot of effort, the Chamberlain could end up as little more than nursemaid to the ruler's kids. The Seneschal could end up relegated to bean-counting in the counting-house, etc.

As for spreadsheets (along with other maths skills), anyone who has the skill to use them probably uses them at work, and the last thing they generally want to do is use them at home, too.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:16, Fri 31 Mar 2017.
Jhaelan
member, 172 posts
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Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 07:55
  • msg #7

Domain Level Games

One mix I have found that is working well is a federal union, with players controlling a polity within it. Each player controls their own polity budget and collaborates on a council towards the main federal budget. By keeping the federal budget the main focus - in part by limiting the polity budget, but with other levers, it is a workable and runnable model for a narrative strategy campaign

You still need the right mix of players, clearly

Happy to expand further
GreenTongue
member, 787 posts
Game Archaeologist
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 10:45
  • msg #8

Re: Domain Level Games

icosahedron152:
You would also need an even more perfect mix of perfect players. As well as a lot of them.

That what I expect.  :(

Jhaelan:
One mix I have found that is working well is a federal union, with players controlling a polity within it.


That sounds like a Victory By Any Means (VBAM) game.
How do you handle the bookkeeping and how much is there?
Jhaelan
member, 173 posts
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Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 14:07
  • msg #9

Re: Domain Level Games

It's not, it's a home-brew set of rules - but a quick look at their site suggests it is similar in scope to VBAM

Bookkeeping is becoming more complex, but just manageable with only RPoL forums set up in a structured way at two years in. Definitely needs some thinking about from the start, some willingness to shift the granularity to where it's needed and I'm in the process of shifting to some tools to help. I'm unconcerned with the tooling effort as it's easy enough (for me) and will permit me to push on certain complications that I want to explore in terms of the story.

Each turn is 2-4 weeks of discussion (mainly player-led) and then several hours to write-up and bookkeep (for me) - but that's partially my choice in terms of narrative depth, plot complexity and which levers for gameplay I've allowed the players. For example, the mechanics are set up to encourage a degree of risk-aversion so that means there more results that require only a terse response and I can focus on the bigger consequences, but it also means the players may spread their bets. Likewise the mechanics encourage them to build up capabilities to perform more complex things, so there's more things to track. You could choose other levers or apply them differently.

All that said, I should probably emphasise that this is a narrative strategy campaign
icosahedron152
member, 747 posts
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 16:37
  • msg #10

Re: Domain Level Games

That sounds very interesting, Jhaelan. I have a game in mind for the distant future that involves not a federal union, but barons within a mediaeval feudal monarchy, which might have a broadly similar feel.

Consequently, I’m interested to learn as much as I can about your experiences. :)

What do you mean by ‘narrative strategy’?
Jhaelan
member, 174 posts
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Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 19:46
  • msg #11

Re: Domain Level Games

@GreenTongue, please rein us in if this moves off-topic from your original enquiry

From my own experience in playing this kind of campaign on here, a straight domain or strategy campaign is very much a 4x that pits player against player. It's in folks interest to amass a mechanical advantage, especially if they can break away from the pack.

For a federated union campaign, there is deliberately less player-vs-player conflict. But you still need something for them to rail against to make for meaningful choices. What I've found helpful is couching the consequences of the player decisions in plot hooks, and this one pillar of what I mean by narrative strategy. For example, the union tries to build X or recruit Y (or whatever) and that requires a roll (no, or little, auto success). If they succeed well, reward them with flavour about the building or unit. If they're partially successful, they will need to expand further effort and tie an excuse for the failure to the explanation - something they can guard against by another choice. If they fail badly enough, break something.

For the second pillar, name things and introduce people and groups and other human elements to evoke an emotive response - the same as you would in a character-led rpg. Get the players invested in the nation

For the third pillar, provide several plot arcs to set the tempo of the campaign, but be prepared to put on the gas or the brakes as necessary as you gauge their interest. Something(s) to struggle against, overcome, feel a sense of achievement

Let me know if a concrete example would help for any of these
GreenTongue
member, 788 posts
Game Archaeologist
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 19:51
  • msg #12

Re: Domain Level Games

In reply to Jhaelan (msg # 11):

No problem. Sounds interesting.
I ran An Echo Resounding based game that was working acceptably but was hard to hold everyone's attention.

If you have kept one going for 2 years, I can learn all you can explain.

What is your time scale in game?
Jhaelan
member, 175 posts
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Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 19:55
  • msg #13

Re: Domain Level Games

Flexible, but typically 1-5 years since that felt right for the science fiction feel I was aiming for. Right now the players at at war with another nation, so it's 1 year per turn (and I experimented with shorter 'engagements' between turns, which failed).
icosahedron152
member, 748 posts
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 21:19
  • msg #14

Re: Domain Level Games

I think I was the last man standing in Green Tongue's game, and I'm all ears, too. :)

We were working together to try to make it workable, but even I got ground down with the calculations and record keeping for each turn. We need a way to minimize that stuff, but still make the game realistic.

Narrative strategy sounds like what I'm aiming for.
GreenTongue
member, 789 posts
Game Archaeologist
Fri 31 Mar 2017
at 21:52
  • msg #15

Re: Domain Level Games

Scaling and the amount of abstraction I think are key.
For example: Tiny Epic Kingdoms: Heroes' Call is very abstracted but yet seems to work fine.
Jhaelan
member, 176 posts
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Sat 1 Apr 2017
at 05:31
  • msg #16

Re: Domain Level Games

Yes, but abstracting the mechanics and enrich the storytelling is what worked for me.

It's probably also worth limiting the player's agency, in that mine have a restricted number of actions they can perform (something I saw work in a Bloodright campaign too). It frustrates them, but it also helps with meaningful choices and prevents them being bogged down in a mechanical morass. As GM, I take on the mechanical burden

On the flip side, I use a tough success scale for their actions and that means they have to consider what things they want to use for bonuses and I think that's a bit more mechanically burdensome then I would prefer. Still working out some tweaks on it

Record-keeping will become a bit of a burden, but this is where tech can help (me, at least). It only took a short time to whip together the support there that I'm now using and structure helps more at the start. Plus one of my players volunteered to proof read against their own sheets, which has been exceptionally helpful (Big thanks to them!)
icosahedron152
member, 749 posts
Sat 1 Apr 2017
at 18:37
  • msg #17

Re: Domain Level Games

Looked up Tiny Epic Kingdoms today. Interesting game. It's amazing what you can do with a few simple, well thought out rules.

Look at Diplomacy, no dice in sight, a few simple movement and combat rules, yet it's one of the most absorbing games I've tried. Just need to fix the player hissy-fits when something goes wrong.

I've looked at increasing the story-telling (I did my own character narrative in the last game) I wanted to add a personal intrigue angle, but I decided to limit options by only allowing certain action choices the same as the map game. As you say, Jhaelan, it can get messy if there are few limits to what a player can do.
GreenTongue
member, 790 posts
Game Archaeologist
Sat 1 Apr 2017
at 19:32
  • msg #18

Re: Domain Level Games

icosahedron152:
It's amazing what you can do with a few simple, well thought out rules.

Look at Diplomacy, no dice in sight, a few simple movement and combat rules,

A core of rules can be fleshed out by narrative to window dress as much as wanted.

Take <b>Barbarian Kings</b> for example.
http://www.anthonypryor.com/?p=2965
The players can be the Kings, Heroes or Wizards with whatever political interactions that are wanted.
The core rules allow a lot of flexibility, in my opinion.
Jhaelan
member, 177 posts
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Mon 3 Apr 2017
at 09:29
  • msg #19

Re: Domain Level Games

Expanding the narrative can simply be flavour rather than extra choices - though I tend to reward narrative with a (hidden) situational bonus or consequence if I feel it's warranted. It encourages the rich world-building that I'm particularly after in this type of campaign

Likewise having a looser set of rules (and some randomness) makes it feel quite different then I imagine it would be where the role of the GM is more arbiter than storyteller
GreenTongue
member, 791 posts
Game Archaeologist
Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 10:48
  • msg #20

Re: Domain Level Games

From my games I have found that the critical factor is a need for some type of engaging conflict.
You can't just assume players will engage with each other because they are playing.
Jhaelan
member, 178 posts
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Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 10:55
  • msg #21

Re: Domain Level Games

Absolutely, I have several types of conflict arcs that I can turn up or down depending on what engagement I see: military, economic, existential threat ;)
Warplock Engineer
member, 2 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 02:30
  • msg #22

Re: Domain Level Games

Hey guys, I'm new here and have experience with exactly the kinds of RPs you're talking about, I LOVE them. My question is how do I find the few RPs you've mentioned here? I don't know where to look or how to search them.

P.S. I figured out how to search things, I was being dumb and didn't realize it was right in front of my face, but when I searched for Tiny Epic Kingdoms nothing came up, So I'm a little confused.
This message was last edited by the user at 02:36, Sun 09 Apr 2017.
icosahedron152
member, 754 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 05:41
  • msg #23

Re: Domain Level Games

TEK is not a game on Rpol, it is a board game whose rules may be useful to us for inspiration. Green Tongue was suggesting that we Google it for more info.

It can be difficult to find exactly what you're looking for on Rpol, even if it exists (which in our fringe genre is not guaranteed). It's all a matter of tweaking the genres on the search feature. Our games are most likely to be found under Strategy, with perhaps some Historical or Fantasy, or Scifi, according to your preference.

Welcome to the site. :)
Jhaelan
member, 179 posts
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Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 09:19
  • msg #24

Re: Domain Level Games

You could also ask in Wanted - GMs as some forums are restricted on whether folks can point you at specific games running (by our awesome moderators, who keep the place lovely and full of helpful stuff rather than spam)
Warplock Engineer
member, 3 posts
Sun 9 Apr 2017
at 16:28
  • msg #25

Re: Domain Level Games

Ah okay, thanks guys, I appreciate it.
GreenTongue
member, 792 posts
Game Archaeologist
Sat 15 Apr 2017
at 02:10
  • msg #26

Re: Domain Level Games

I'm reading the Servant of the Crown Mysteries and wondering if that would be a good model for play.
Each player having a position and an angle on an Event that needs to be dealt with.
Each with their own motivation and restriction to their authority.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:09, Sun 16 Apr 2017.
GreenTongue
member, 793 posts
Game Archaeologist
Sat 15 Apr 2017
at 13:22
  • msg #27

Re: Domain Level Games

What about something like King of Dragon Pass but with individual players for as many of the "Clan Ring" leading the clan as can be gotten to play.
Where the players can make two macro-level decisions per season.
Jhaelan, is that along the lines of the game you were talking about?

As for a "Peerage" oriented game instead of "Clan Ring" there are also ...
Bailiff (who reports to the Seneschal)
Master of the Hunt (who reports to the Seneschal)
Castellan (who reports to the Constable)
Captain of the Guard (who reports to the Constable)
Gaoler (who reports to the Constable)
Sheriff (who reports to the Chancellor)

I guess it comes down to what the players would be doing more than anything.

Maybe a "puzzle solving" type of game where each position provides specific types of "clues" and getting the correct clues collected to "solve" the current "puzzle" would be the goal.

Using "Mythic GM Emulator" I have found that a resolution can be reached even starting with nothing but an initial direction. So, the GM wouldn't need to know all the clues ahead, in fact, that makes it easier, since the clues can't be missed that way.
Jhaelan
member, 180 posts
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Sat 15 Apr 2017
at 20:30
  • msg #28

Re: Domain Level Games

It's not, though I'm a fan of King of Dragon Pass. In my rules, the existing players form a council of peers and must come to consensus (or majority) for the decisions affecting the nation. They've taken to this to an extent I've been surprised with, creating a set of policies, big infrastructure programmes, military reorganisations and soon on.

Each player has freedom to create their own niche and to cooperate to a greater or lesser extent with the council, which has led to some interesting dynamics that I suspect a more bounded role (like seneschals, castellans and so on would encourage)
GreenTongue
member, 794 posts
Game Archaeologist
Tue 25 Apr 2017
at 22:30
  • msg #29

Re: Domain Level Games

REBELLION!!

Since one of the things that ends up killing games is the eventual overload of bookkeeping, what about starting right before that point?

Establish a kingdom and have the players rebel against the current order.

Typically, as a rebellion goes on, conditions and resources degrade, which reduces the bookkeeping.
Jhaelan
member, 185 posts
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Wed 26 Apr 2017
at 08:26
  • msg #30

Re: Domain Level Games

Interesting twist and I might steal it for the next one :)
GreenTongue
member, 795 posts
Game Archaeologist
Fri 28 Apr 2017
at 15:57
  • msg #31

Re: Domain Level Games

While reading issue #3 of Axioms, the ACKS magazine, I wondered if a game based on a Senate would be doable?

Is this close to what you are doing Jhaelan?
Jhaelan
member, 187 posts
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Fri 28 Apr 2017
at 18:47
  • msg #32

Re: Domain Level Games

From what I can see from the blurb on RPG Now it's in the ballpark, but I wasn't aware of the magazine. Will check it out
Quasar_42
member, 29 posts
Sat 29 Apr 2017
at 03:00
  • msg #33

Re: Domain Level Games

I've never played in a game like this, but it's definitely something I'd like to try.

Here's a thought, based on something I saw a game on a Civilization forum- RP was going on on the forum, while the GM played the game according to their decisions and gave them information based on that. It led to some pretty interesting stuff, and it helps take care of the problem of the GM having to run everything. Unfortunately I can't find that example, but it is something I might like to try.

I can think of a number of good candidates for this- Civ, Total War, Europa Universalis, or Crusader Kings. The last one would even take care of character creation.

Potential problems I see-
1. They require someone actually having acces to a game like that and time to play it as well.
2. Some understanding of game mechanics will probably be necessary, depending on the game you choose. Games don't necessarily behave like real life.
3. It limits your settings a lot. Creating a world from scratch is not going to be possible in this system- you'll be limited to either historical settings or any mods someone may have managed to cook up. The idea of playing a British Parliamentarian sounds fun to me, but it may not to everyone.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 03:40, Sat 29 Apr 2017.
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