Alex Vriairu
 member, 421 posts
Sun 11 Feb 2018
at 20:06
Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
Ok, I am really interested in the Kingmaker idea.  I've even tried to learn pathfinder to do it, but Pathfinder (or really anything that has an Alignment system and I Just do not mix, I'd go into details, but I'm not sure that's allowed. Suffice to say, when you go up against a boss like the "Stag Lord" from the kingmaker game, and he's passed out drunk, there is no logical reason not to sneak in with your best melee fighters and stab him in the back while your ranger turns him into a pin cushion from afar, before he ever wakes up.

Is there any other games/systems out there that combine the party adventure aspect with the building of a kingdom/nation/sovereign power?  But don't make players do what is essentially Tactical Idiocy in the name of "Good" or "Honor" etc?

PS: Hope this is the right forum, been away awhile.
engine
 member, 550 posts
Sun 11 Feb 2018
at 20:13
Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
In reply to Alex Vriairu (msg # 1):

If you have a group that is into that sort of thing, just play Pathfinder or whatever and ignore the alignment part. Lots of people do. Nothing says you have to use it and the game works fine without it.
GreenTongue
 member, 821 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Mon 12 Feb 2018
at 01:18
Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
In reply to Alex Vriairu (msg # 1):

Take a look at An Echo Resounding for addendum rules for such a thing.
There are other domain level play rules depending on just how detailed and setting dependent you want.
icosahedron152
 member, 843 posts
Mon 12 Feb 2018
at 05:00
Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
As engine says, the degree of Moral Compass is more a matter for the GM and Players rather than the game system. When I was playing AD&D back at college, we all refused to play Paladins for that very reason, and if some newbie to our group made the mistake of choosing a Paladin for a character, he was rolling a new character before long. Particularly if he crossed my mate's backstabbing Chaotic Neutral thief...

As GreenTongue says, there are many different domain-level rule sets available, though many of them are death by beancounting, and require spreadsheets and infinite patience to play them.

I don't want to get my wrist slapped in this forum, so if you're interested in discussing the existence or development of something that allows both domain level and personal level play, without getting bogged down in beancounting, drop me a Rmail.
Alex Vriairu
 member, 422 posts
Mon 12 Feb 2018
at 08:24
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
engine:
In reply to Alex Vriairu (msg # 1):

If you have a group that is into that sort of thing, just play Pathfinder or whatever and ignore the alignment part. Lots of people do. Nothing says you have to use it and the game works fine without it.

I would if I could Find such a group.
engine
 member, 552 posts
Mon 12 Feb 2018
at 12:14
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
In reply to Alex Vriairu (msg # 5):

They're out there. You're not the first person to prefer such an approach. Google the phrase "Lawful Stupid." This might not be the site for that group, but what do I know? Ask around. Find people with a similar mindset and play what they're playing.
Kenderkin
 member, 1 post
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 23:41
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
Sure run “monster kingdom” variant with mites, kobolds, goblins, etc...

Or run an all drow surface kingdom version..
GreenTongue
 member, 822 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Wed 14 Feb 2018
at 00:40
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
On the other hand, if you want a game like the "Westworld" series only in a different setting, I'm sure there are plenty of those around.

Where you can take advantage of the "hosts" and reap the rewards while the "hosts" forget what you have done.
praguepride
 member, 1231 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Wed 14 Feb 2018
at 05:17
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
Alex Vriairu:
But don't make players do what is essentially Tactical Idiocy in the name of "Good" or "Honor" etc?


Not to be too critical but this sounds like a breakdown in GM or Player expectations of what "Good" and "Lawful" actually represent.

If you're playing the game where an LG player can't swing a sword without going through due process...well you and I are playing very different games.


In my opinion there isn't very much force for Kingmaker to be a LG game. You can definitely go a tyrant route as it is less about Good and Evil as it is Law and Chaos. A Chaotic Evil game would be a little difficult but not terribly so. You couldn't play the game word for word but making a crazy evil anarcho-state wouldn't be the end of the AP.

Personally, if my "Good" players found a drunk bandit and slit his throat...eh. I'd note it but it wouldn't be an automatic ding. And also, except for a few specific classes who really cares what alignment you end up as long as you're having fun?
swordchucks
 member, 1467 posts
Wed 14 Feb 2018
at 14:14
Re: Anything like Kingmaker without a "moral Compass"
I've run that bit of Kingmaker twice, and both groups had far from a "fair" fight with the Stag Lord.  One had a paladin that at least let him wake up, first, but he kind of woke up alone in the middle of his foes and was quickly dispatched.

As for alignment in general, everyone has their own opinion on it.  As a GM, long as you spell out your own take on it, I doubt you'll have trouble getting a group that'll go along with it.  I've seen a wide variety of versions work in play (from "all killing is evil" to a much stricter "killing an innocent is evil, all the rest is case-by-case").  As with most things in gaming (and life), it's about communication and acceptance/consent.

I tend to play with the vast majority of the world in shades of neutral with, for instance, the lawful execution of bandits being a lawful non-evil action.  Honorable is a different thing and only certain classes have to worry about that (and even then, only some versions of those classes).