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22:34, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Posted by gladiusdei
gladiusdei
member, 715 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 03:26
  • msg #1

Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I have something that is sort of a mix between a rant and a question that I have struggled with in some of the games I have played.  I'll keep it vague, but I wanted to see how you all deal with players not playing in character 'correctly.'  I say it that way, because I am well aware that what is correct in this matter is pretty up for debate.

But to give a little more specific of an example, I'll use D&D.  One problem I see all the time is players not really playing their characters as id they are afraid of anything.  They always seem certain they are invulnerable, that they can defeat the people around them.  The worst instances lead up to them being jerks to kings in their own courtrooms because they believe they are high enough level that they can't be harmed, or relying on out of character knowledge of an enemy to decide they can easily kill them using something specific, so they don't really hesitate to leap into what would look like a deadly situation.

This applies to other games.  Where players never admit they are wrong, never act in fear or doubt, always seeming to be cool.  I know often people play games to try to be something they can't be in real life, but it really takes the drama out of situations when they just refuse to even consider the idea that their characters may not be as brave as they want them to be.

Or, if they have modern earth values in a game where those values make no sense, but constantly judge the setting by those modern values.  It really makes it hard to get immersed in a setting when players never even consider that people in the game world might not be 21st century westerners.

I don't know if this is just to vague to make any sense, but how do you deal with it?  Do you think it is wrong to privately advise, or even reprimand, a player if they do this sort of thing?  or is it just something you have to accept as part of playing role playing games?
aguy777
member, 289 posts
Join Date:
Thu, 28 Nov, 2013
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 03:51
  • msg #2

Players not playing in character 'correctly'

As a GM, I'm familiar with this sort of thing. Primarily players insulting the person hiring them, or the leader of the guard, or the queen, or what-have-you. How do I handle that? Simple: they don't get paid as much, or don't get the job. If I were to outright insult my prospective boss in an interview (which is basically what the old man in the tavern is doing: interviewing you), I'm fairly certain I won't get the job. I hold true to that in D&D. Insult the queen's weight? Why should she hire you? There's plenty of other adventurers to hire. If there is no-one else they can hire, or they're desperate? The job's pay just dropped, and the Persuasion/Negotiation/whatever check to raise the pay just got tougher. This is usually followed by the person hiring the PCs making some comment about it; "I'm certain a man with a mouth like yours can find better work elsewhere", or "a hundred gold is more than enough for the soap your tongue needs".

If a PC uses OOC knowledge to get an advantage, and I catch them in the act, I reprimand them or punish them. I'll either call it out (which usually results in an apology), or I'll silently change the stats and tell them after. Mention that you can keep back-peddling from the zombies and kill them with ranged weapons because they have a lower movement rate than you? I just increased it so you're even. That last one did happen. When the plan failed and the zombies easily caught them again, the offending player asked how they could move so fast when the Monster Manual gave their movement as lower than they had moved. I pointed out that looking up the zombies in the Monster Manual is metagaming, and so I changed the stats as punishment. The player hasn't done it since.

As for PCs never being afraid of things, I can't control that as a GM so easily. D&D 5e has Inspiration, which allows me to reward those who play their character, but some characters are the typical Captain America-types who never surrender/back-down/flinch. I'd be interested to hear if someone has a solution for those characters, other than OOC saying "no".
nauthiz
member, 578 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:27
  • msg #3

Players not playing in character 'correctly'

This isn't a rare thing, even in well established groups that have gamed together for years and are familiar with each other and thier respective personalities, quirks, playstyles, etc.  Sometimes people just end up on different pages to some degree, intentionally or not.

Talking can help.  If possible, outlining the type of game you're trying to run, the themes, moods, etc can assist in getting everyone working together towards those goals.

For instance, is the zombie game you're running supposed to be dark, foreboding, and horrific, or is it supposed to be light hearted and comedic?  It's easy enough to say "we're playing D&D" and assume everyone will have at least a rough idea of what will be going down, but it's the details where this specific issue crops up.

So you've had a discussion, everyone says they're good, game starts and someone's really playing thier character against theme and in contrast with the rest of the group.  What then?  Well, talking to them about it more could still help.  They may not realize they're doing things a certain way and that's impacting the story that everyone is trying to collectively tell and thier enjoyment in doing so.

If the issue persists you pretty much have two options.  Either try to guide them via in game cues as aguy777 mentioned, as perhaps thier character burning thier hand will teach the player that the stove is hot and they shouldn't be having thier character touch it just as you'd told them previously.

The only other option is to decide it's not going to work and separate them from the game.  RPoL is still the internet.  Though the majority of the people I've had the pleasure of gaming with on here over the years were cool, the anonymity of the medium may mean some people are just out to be jerks and don't care.  You can't fix that, and it's really unfair to everyone if a GM is willing to let such a person ruin everyone else's fun.
engine
member, 655 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:32
  • msg #4

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
I don't know if this is just to vague to make any sense

Of course it makes sense. It's the same "problem" DMs have had for decades

gladiusdei:
but how do you deal with it?

I don't worry about it. I used to, a little, but I was only making the game less enjoyable for myself. The players were having a blast.

gladiusdei:
Do you think it is wrong to privately advise, or even reprimand, a player if they do this sort of thing?  or is it just something you have to accept as part of playing role playing games?

I don't know why you list those as the only two possibilities.

If you can't just accept that that's the way they want to play the game, and create a game to accommodate that, then you need to talk to them, yes, but not to advise or reprimand and absolutely not "punished." When you talk to them (which you should probably do anyway), just try to understand their viewpoint, and what they want from the game when they play.

You say that it takes the drama out of situations. Well, not everyone wants drama, or at least not the same way. If they don't want the drama of being intimidated by someone, then it's not necessary to force that on them, and doing so is not likely to go well.

People have different tastes. Take the movie ALIENS. It's an action movie, but it's heavily focused on the things that go wrong. A GM who wanted to run a game based on the drama of the situations that arise in ALIENS would probably plan to kill most of the characters (or at least beloved NPCs) and put the PCs at an extreme disadvantage. If the players didn't know that the GM planned it to be like ALIENS and assumed that they were just supposed to handle the mission the way that made sense to them might handle things in a much, much different way, and possibly in a way that removed all the drama, say by taking things really slowly, and neutralizing anyone who wanted them to rush in.

It's a matter of not being on the same page. When players want drama they will create drama. When they don't they won't. Find out how the players want to play, explore what that calls for and do that, or part ways.

Don't chastise or punish or anything negative. That's been don't for years and guess what... the problem hasn't gone away for most GMs. But I simply decided that this kind of thing doesn't bother me and I took steps to work with the players instead of against them and guess what... the problem evaporated for me.
gladiusdei
member, 716 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:36
  • msg #5

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Engine, you're responding as if I am talking about ALL players in a game doing the same thing.  The problem is when a few do, the rest don't.  This means you have a game that WANTS drama, but a few of them screw it up.  Or a game that wants a serious tone that delves into the frailty and mortality of the characters, but they act like super heroes.

I'm talking about one or two players not being on the same page as the rest of the game, not the GM being on a different page than his group.
engine
member, 656 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:47
  • msg #6

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In reply to gladiusdei (msg # 5):

The answer is still the same. Talk to them and listen to what they prefer. Scolding and punishment has no place in this situation, if everyone is playing in good faith and wants everyone else to enjoy the game. It's still probably the case that there's a mismatch in the level and type of drama and the game should be put on hold until everyone can get on the same page.

If they're not playing in good faith, if they're deliberately messing things up, then scolding and punishment still have no place, because at that point there's no reason to continue playing with them. They want to mess up the game and will do so no matter what, so it's time to part ways, in a civil manner. It's a waste of their time to waste your time, so parting ways is in everyone's best interest.
baxtheslayer
member, 22 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:52
  • msg #7

Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I've definitely seen these behaviors in games I run, and look at it as a sign that the players and I, as a GM, are not on the same page about what kind of game we're playing.

In DnD especially, I see players comparing their stats in their head to the NPCs around them and acting based on the fact that they could kill the entire town if they wanted to.  I simply adjusted the standard fantasy setting to accommodate this: this with authority have it because they have power.  A king can't stay on the throne if a 7th level fighter can kill him and his entire retinue.  That fighter would become the new ruler, the greatest kingdoms are lead by the highest level NPCs.  This all started around the time of 4th edition, so during an initial meeting with the ruler of a magical nation, the ruler (who was a warlock) nonchalantly tossed around a power which sent one of his enemies to hell and back. 20d6 fire damage later, the players were well aware this guy was the boss and wouldn't hesitate to roast them if they started acting like jerks.  Showing the players that if it comes to a dice roll, they'll lose handily, can be sobering.

That being said, there is a fine line that must be walked, especially on here where you can't just pause and have a nice little chat with your friends about their attitudes.  You don't want to seem too heavy handed, particularly since some people might only be playing to feel like a level 13 badass.

There's also the question of game genre, style, and expectations.  If you want drama, you definitely need to say so well before the game starts.  Establish what you want to see in the game while you're recruiting or creating characters.  Some people want to play DnD as a tactical board game, with full understanding of the "pieces in play" such as NPC levels or monster stats.  If that's not the sort of game I want, I make sure people know it.  I'll often "create" new creatures using existing stats but change the name and description just so people don't automatically assume its something they've seen before.

Of course, if a player really wants to be disruptive or to act in a childish manner, no amount of adjusting or private conversations will stop it.
This message was last edited by the user at 20:32, Tue 07 Aug 2018.
gladiusdei
member, 717 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 04:58
  • msg #8

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

You guys are still addressing things that are outside the scope of what I am referring to.  The D&D example I gave was to be generic.  I'm talking more about the other examples I gave.  Players who play out of character and setting, or ignore dramatic situations that would effect them in a certain way.

If all the players and GM say they want dramatic play, or the game is described as dramatic and serious, but some of the players still refuse to admit when things might scare them, or ignore the setting and how it would effect them, I can't just cancel the entire game.  It also seems a bit extreme to jump to kicking them automatically because they want something different than you want.

I know it needs to be addressed, it's just hard to know how to do it.  The problems that drove me to ask this are more in line of players ignoring certain aspects of the game and setting because it may make their characters less able to act, well, though, or capable.  They prefer to always act like they know what's going on.  This is the sort of thing that doesn't necessarily ruin a game for all involved, but it certainly leaves a sour taste in my mouth as GM, when players won't really respond in any sort of realistic fashion.
engine
member, 657 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 05:04
  • msg #9

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
If all the players and GM say they want dramatic play, or the game is described as dramatic and serious, but some of the players still refuse to admit when things might scare them, or ignore the setting and how it would effect them, I can't just cancel the entire game.

I'm not sure you actually wanted advice. I think that if you did you'd be asking people to explain responses that seem extreme to you, and perhaps learning from them that your interpretation was uncharitable.

This seems to be at the root of the problem you're describing. You might consider that the real root of the problem lies with how you interpret how people respond to you.

The solution is not hard. Just ask questions, listen, and take scolding and punishment out of the equation.
gladiusdei
member, 718 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 05:17
  • msg #10

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

No, I think you misinterpreted what I said in the first post, and since I've been a bit exasperated it bugged me.  Sorry that it came off too aggressive.

I'm talking about small problems with how players play their characters that seem to suck the life out of a scene.  Work out a great, scary scene for a group where the big bad comes out in a terrifying manner, and a player just shrugs and ignores the threat of the situation.  That sort of thing can really drain a GM's enthusiasm.

But telling them 'come on man, your character should be terrified,' doesn't work a lot of the times.

Another instance would be, as I described before, a player arguing with an NPC as if they view the world as a 21st century American, instead of a medieval knight, or some other inhuman thing.  Or arguing in general with an NPC that has authority over them, and in reality they probably would be a bit too intimidated to argue like they are.

They're small problems that don't necessarily ruin a game for the entire group, but after a while things like this really grate on a GM trying to run a fun game for everyone.

And yes, I try to lay out ahead of time what I expect in a game, I try to lay out the theme and tone.  But you never know how a player is going to handle a situation until you do it, and now that situation is written down in post form.  So at that point, my choices are really either to talk to them about it, kick them, or ignore it.

And you're right, reprimand was too strong of a word.  I was just annoyed and wanted to metaphorically slap a player's character, but I can't do that.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:27, Tue 07 Aug 2018.
baxtheslayer
member, 23 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 05:58
  • msg #11

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Sorry, I was posting from my phone and started it before several other posts but didn't finish it until much later.

As for one or two players sucking the life from the big bad's dramatic entrance - I find that par for the course for roleplaying.  Players want to be tough, and capable, and to know everything - they don't want to be vulnerable or deficient.  I often try to come up with elaborate scenes with interesting characters that my players blow off without a pause.  Luckily, when I'm face to face with my players, I can just move on and find a scene that interests them (usually purely ad lib) and just run with it.  If I try to look at planning games like writing a novel, I'm usually disappointed.  But, if I just focus on the overall story arc and make up the little details as I go along it's much easier to find the things that the players are interested in and get into that.

I also think that choice of game system could make a big difference with these issues.  If you want the characters to be able to be terrified, or to be intimidated, how are you handling that mechanically.  If there aren't rules for that sort of thing, you might want to research a system which includes it.  Some, like Deadlands, have in depth rules for fear, dictating when the characters faint or flee or suffer other effects.  FFG Star Wars has a fear system that causes characters to take penalty dice when they're afraid.  Using such a system could show that the character is incapable of dealing with a terrifying situation but I don't think it resolves the underlying problem.

I think the real issue is the player, and I've seen plenty of players who enjoy building a character and rolling some dice, but don't really want to get in character.  If the player isn't on board, it doesn't matter what the dice or the NPCs say.
evileeyore
member, 104 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 06:05
  • msg #12

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
Players who play out of character and setting, or ignore dramatic situations that would effect them in a certain way.

There are only two reasonable things you can do:

1 - Have a talk with them about game and play expectations and then when they still continue to fail to tow the line, boot them.  Get new Players to fill the empty spots and move on.

2 - Have a talk with them about game and play expectations and then when they still continue to fail to tow the line, roll over and let them do whatever they damn well please.


Pick which ever works best for you and go with it.
This message was last edited by the user at 06:06, Tue 07 Aug 2018.
facemaker329
member, 7041 posts
Gaming for over 30
years, and counting!
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 06:29
  • msg #13

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I get what you're saying in the OP.  I'm not the GM, but I'm in a game with a few characters that are like that.  It can be anything from a mysteriously transient accent (sometimes it's written so thick you can barely understand it, other times the same character is as clear-spoken and eloquent as a Shakespearean actor) to mysteriously fluid background details ("Now, wait...two years ago, he was saying that he'd never done anything like that...now, he's had decades of experience at it?  Where did all this practice come from?") or details that don't make sense ("Your people are nomadic...why would he have learned enough about construction to figure out the weak points on a structure like this?") to inconsistent social behavior ("Look, YOU went to the bar...knowing it was a place where people hang out.  Why do you keep turning tail and running away every time an NPC says two words to you?")

Since the players of these characters post regularly, and have stuck with the game for a LONG time, now, the GM cuts them a lot of slack.  We (the GM and some other players) have actually made these behaviors into kind of character-defining quirks ("Oh, so now you say you know how these guys like to fight?  Please, enlighten us, since nobody in the known galaxy has ever seen them before, much less gone to war with them..." *spoken with HEAVY sarcasm, in character*)  When they start getting too carried away, the GM reins them in a bit...but oftentimes, it's the reactions of the other characters that end up reeling in the more egregious behaviors.
icosahedron152
member, 887 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 08:45
  • msg #14

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I find the best way to deal with situations like that is simply to use in-game realism.

Ask yourself why the PC should be terrified of the monster. If it's because the monster can tear him apart, let it happen. Let the monster halve the PC's HP with a single blow, and then see if the PC squares up to the monster for another round, or if he takes cover, 'properly'. If he still fights, hit him again.

This is not 'punishment', it's realism. It's not singling him out, it would happen to anyone who squared up to the monster, but there's only one PC doing it...

If the PC insults the Queen, have her cast him into the dungeon in chains. That's the realistic consequence. Everyone else knows that, that's why everyone else is being polite. Now, you've got a mini-adventure concerning how the other PCs get their friend out of the dungeon. Will they plead with the Queen, launch a rescue?

If your major NPCs are weaker than your PCs, you're gaming at the wrong level. If the PCs are 7th Level fighters, the King's bodyguards should be at least 10th level. If the King allows random visitors to insult him, he won't keep his throne for long. Play the King realistically.

If your setting is realistic, sooner or later your PCs will recognize their place in that setting. Either that, or they'll recognize that they have no place in the setting, and they'll choose another game. It's win-win.

Some people are like pets or kids - they test your boundaries. Show them where the boundaries are - 'if you do that, this happens'.
praguepride
member, 1325 posts
"Hugs for the Hugs God!"
- Warhammer Fluffy-K
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 13:45
  • msg #15

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Personally I think that from a D&D perspective most adventurers are a bit crazy. I think it is an interesting character arc to have them be young and energetic taking on the world...and then the poop hits the fan and it gets real.

Think about it from <insert almost any war movie ever> where you have the young recruits who think they will single handedly shoot Hitler. Then they get to the front lines and it is just death and misery and poop and disease. Some people break, but not all.

I personally think it is unfair for the GM to dictate how players play their characters so long as there is interaction. I've had players who played kind of "flat". I would throw crazy stuff at them and they wouldn't even blink at it. Sometimes I was fine with it and just ignored it, sometimes I leaned on it and looked at just how crazy I could get things before they flinch :D

Anyway I hate to say it but the easiest way to kick that situation is to start killing people off. If I've got a PC who isn't listening to my warnings and is mouthing off to the Queen and acting like a nob he's going to be arrested, tried, and executed. Oh sure he can try and run or draw his blade and fight and then the court wizard strikes him down with a disintegration beam.

Now OOC I would have given at least one clear warning and in-game some seneschal or guard would say "Watch your tongue or we will cut it out knave". At that point if they continue to act disruptive then they can suffer the consequences. I would do it and then quickly switch their groups around so they can't post in public until we've settled things via PMs. Last thing I want is for a disruptive player to ragequit publically and damper the mood of things. Player-GM conflicts should be handled privately, imo.
Jhaelan
member, 222 posts
Prefers roles to rolls
Based in UTC+1
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 13:56
  • msg #16

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

praguepride:
Personally I think that from a D&D perspective most adventurers are a bit crazy.


Murderhobos?
donsr
member, 1370 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 14:16
  • msg #17

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

 as a GM  and Player, I think the characters  should be played  as  the player  would be   he they were him/her.

 In My semi-D&D  game, these folks are supposed to have 'been around' , just not in this  area...if some one  wants to be the  coward, or try to 'see both sides of the story'..that's fine, But the NPCs  will react accordingly, and ht ePCs  can  deal wioth each other  as they wish.
 in the games  I run my own system, they players  must build themselevs as they grow in the game.. how they choose to play is up to them.

 I had a player once, who  tried to 'hide' on the ship..he got  caught after a while..and  ended up  in a penal colony where he passed....

 Had a fellow  try   to assassinate the  Admiral, gave him the chance to do that..he failed,, was Gunned  down  by SEC and set to penal colony where he passed..

 Its all in the Players.. some are just there to mess around, I don't keep them around  long... others  play a big part in the story through thier actions and posts..they tend to be  Keepers,unless RL take them away.

 In the end,  some book written by some guys , shouldn't tell you how to play a character... if yo look in  the R$L, we see  people of every stripe who  go from good, to scum...::shrugs:: Let the people play, if it  is a negeative force in your GAme..PM  them..or cut them..
Hunter
member, 1460 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 16:00
  • msg #18

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Unless I'm misreading what you're talking about...

You're dealing with the issue of "plot armor".   The characters can do whatever they want and the story will advance, because otherwise there'd be no story.   Also known as a lack of consequences.

In a feudal society, which is what most fantasy games are; nobility has the right of life and death with non-nobles.    So if the farmer turned fighter decides to insult the Queen, then she's absolutely justified with having him made and example of...and a head shorter.

But give a little slack, too.   She might decide to be amused rather than insulted: Once.   But also warn them, "your character knows better".


On the flip side, if they decide to murder the mayor and burn down the vilage....well...welcome to the wanted list.   Assuming that the village militia doesn't kill them before they escape.
This message was last edited by the user at 16:03, Tue 07 Aug 2018.
donsr
member, 1371 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 16:09
  • msg #19

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

 In the  end? Hunter has the Right of it.

 There are times  when the NPCs   who are my player character/plot  drivers..might butt  heads with a Guard or something, but  it  always 'make sense' because of Rep, linage ect ect…


 Some PCs   also earn that right, after being in the game  and established themselesv to the 'masses'.


 The very best thing, is to remember, actions   have reactions...and  some body trying to  make money off of  a rulebook, should be  the 'god' of  your game.
gladiusdei
member, 719 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 16:19
  • msg #20

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I agree with a lot of you to an extent, but you guys have mostly focused still on the extremes in D&D.  It's a lot harder to deal with in more drama and dialogue heavy games like white wolf.


Sort of like when a player talks aggressively to a vampire, or other supernatural creature, that in reality they would probably be a bit more deferential to.

Or when players, like I mentioned previously, insist on viewing an otherworldly setting through modern progressive eyes, when their character would in no way have that view.

Its not stuff with extreme in game consequences, but in makes it hard to really enjoy playing out from my end.
GreyGriffin
member, 216 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 17:44
  • msg #21

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

System definitely influences behavior, and in the example of D&D, characters of power are powerful.  They have enormous agency over their lives, and they have the power and capability to face down powerful opposition.  PCs who can bring down dragons, survive fireballs, and win battles of will against mind-numbing horrors from the Underdark expect to be treated with some respect.  D&D implies that PCs stand well outside the "established" social order.  Settings with D&D characters woven into the social fabric are surprisingly rare, like Birthright.

A high-level D&D character might best equate to the mercenary captains of early renaissance Italy, the catholic clergy of the middle ages, or revolutionary figures like Joan of Arc.  Or even mythical figures like Hercules or Odysseus, around whom kings (and gods) plotted and schemed, rather than called in to kowtow and threw money at.

The prototypical D&D party, the Fellowship of the Ring, were all participants at the Council of Elrond, not just vassals called in and expected to kneel.  And look at how uncomfortable everyone was with what Boromir was saying at the meeting.  Was that disruptive?  Or was that dramatic?  The members of the Fellowship, hobbits excluded, were all mythical badasses who could punch an army of orcs, and they were treated as such - although they were also members of Middle Earth's aristocracy, a privilege that is often denied the PCs of typical fantasy adventure games.

On the opposite tack, in Vampire, getting shot (or a particularly nasty kidney punch) can have deep (and occasionally lasting) consequences.  Losing social status has dramatic effects, because that's what those games are fundamentally about, more so than action-adventure games like D&D.  Getting respect and elbowing for room at the table is the fundamental loop of the game, which has a very different set of mechanical supports for characters with social supports (and mind-control powers).  You're more likely to lose a dot of Herd from pissing off a neighboring Coterie than you are to lose health levels.

In Werewolf, on the other hand, combat damage is almost superficial, because Werewolves recover so readily.  As a result, Werewolves are terrifying, because they don't have to face the same consequences for violence that other inhabitants of the World of Darkness do.  Werewolf games tend to feature more violence as a result, because the risks are much lower.  Werewolves, to an extent, treat Vampires as a potentially dangerous annoyance, and fear them more for their pervasive influence than their physical or supernatural threat.

So how do you resolve the flip-off-the-king situation?  I think the solutions are threefold.

One is to identify and communicate with players for whom it is a problem.  Make sure everybody understands the basic norms of behavior in your setting, the baseline of behavior, and then look at the reason the player/PC is violating those norms.  Even It could be deliberate or warranted.  It could be that the player has different expectations about his character's place in the social order than the GM does, or it could be that the player is trying to highlight the character's place (or lack thereof) in the social order.

Second is to give the players' characters some respect.  Expecting to rule with the absolute imperial authority of a medieval king is difficult when you're talking to a wizard who can melt everyone in the room and walk away clean.  A lot of disruptive players can be appeased by giving a little ground.  Remember that they are a person of substance, and that the Player Characters are the main characters of any roleplaying story.  Giving an inch doesn't mean giving a mile, though.  There's a difference between not insisting on the formalities of office, ceding social ground, and taking sass.  That goes back to the point above.

Third is to set expectations up front.  If everyone comes into the game with a different idea about how social status works in your game world, you're going to run into issues where half the PCs are privileged peasants who kowtow before the king, and end up cowering off to the side while PC Ulysses moons God-King Poseidon.

How do you solve the blase reaction to Cthulhu?

First, you have to make sure the PCs know it's Cthulhu.  Vivid descriptions help, especially if they are demonstrative.  Express that this thing is a thing they should be afraid of, especially if they don't have a lot of context to begin with.  An elder dragon should breathe flames that curl the paint on their magical shields, burn white hot, sound like a jet engine, and cause wounds that sear to the bone, not just cause 40 damage.

If the PCs aren't interacting with the thing mechanically, it's important to build it up.  Foreshadow.  Feed rumors.  Give physical and descriptive clues that this is a thing With Which Not To Be Messed.  The work you put into presenting a threat will, if your players are with you on this journey, yield dividends.  If they aren't being jerks and attempting to undercut you just to deflate the scene for comedy, you should be able to evoke a reaction.  The keyword there, though, is evoke.  You can't just say "this is a thing which you should feel this way about," you've got to work to create that feeling.  (to be "evocative".) Difficult in a play-by-post environment, but not undoable.

Just as before, though, this is also a matter of managing expectations.  Outside of mechanics, your fiction sets the tone, and the way you present a situation will determine quite a lot about how players react to it.
facemaker329
member, 7042 posts
Gaming for over 30
years, and counting!
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 17:50
  • msg #22

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

The 'actions have consequences' approach can still help, I think.  Somebody isn't appropriately deferential?  Well, then, the guy they're talking to isn't going to help...he'll withhold whatever help, resources, or information he was going to offer until he gets appropriate respect.  That may mean the rest of the party going back to aoologize without the problem character, so that player misses out on the RP.  Or his reputation precedes him, so they go someplace and everyone's like, "Oh, it's THAT guy...no thanks, we've heard about you."  And if he complains, explain that it's a natural consequence of his character choices.  Cause and effect should be applicable, no matter the setting or rules.  If the character defies the norms, he had better be either good enough to justify it (incredibly rare) or else be entertaining about how he does it (being plucky and defiant can be endearing, being downright rude and insulting pretty much always puts people off...)  If they're not good enough or funny (or otherwise entertaining) about how they do stuff, let them endure some negative consequences.  The longer they persist, the worse it gets, and let it splash over on the other characters.  Guilt by association is a very real-world phenomenon.  If the other characters have to keep cleaning up his mess or salvaging a situation that shouldn't have been that difficult, they'll start pre-empting his actions...most people don't actively look for a harder way to do something.

The examples have all been fantasy-oriented...but you can substitute 'Vampire' for 'King', or even 'crime boss' or 'military commander', and the basic premise still holds true.  And it doesn't have to be in reaction to big things...reputations are built just as much on little events as big ones.
baxtheslayer
member, 24 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 17:58
  • msg #23

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

So, why should the players be deferential to the monster?  Why shouldn't they speak aggressively?

If the consequence is that the insane, 400 year old elder vampire might twist their head off and drink their blood like a mountain dew, that's one thing.  If the consequence is that it hurts the NPC's feelings, you'll find that most players really don't care about NPCs that much, and it's even harder to be sympathetic for a witch or werewolf.

You might be able to show that having a powerful immortal dislike you can be incredibly inconvenient - maybe he buys the bank and forecloses on your home or changes the date of Elysium so you miss it or passes legislation to reroute traffic so your small business gets less customers.

Of course, if it's a small, persistent community, like Vampire, you can give the player a bad reputation.  Make their unlife a little miserable.  Shun the non believer.

Actions have consequences, even if it's just small consequences for small insults.

As for the other thing, honestly, I don't penalize my players for having modern ideas because I'm not an expert on medieval (or other-worldly) life.  My group knows a few things and we incorporate them, but I'm not going to penalize my player for trying to build a flying machine.  He'd just become my setting's Da Vinci.  That goes doubly for settings with magic.
evileeyore
member, 105 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 18:01
  • msg #24

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
It's a lot harder to deal with in more drama and dialogue heavy games like white wolf.

It doesn't matter the system, it doesn't matter the genre, my advice above solves those problems.
gladiusdei
member, 720 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 19:37
  • msg #25

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

True, technically your answer is the only way to handle it.  But it also over simplifies and dismisses the difficulty of the talk with the player, how to approach it, and why the situation is so frustrating in the first place.

I appreciate the advise from everyone, I said in the first post this was half rant half question, I was just frustrated.  RPOL makes dealing with any sort of situation with an in game solution (such as allowing a player to speak rudely to an NPC only to let it come back and bite them in the butt) a lot less satisfying because of just how long it takes to get to outcomes like that.  When you have to participate in a week or two of conversation in game that makes you really lose enthusiasm for the game you're trying to run, it's hard to hope the future of the game will resolve it.

Which leaves you with addressing it privately, and that often feels like a standard internet argument, where both parties think they're in the right.

So, yeah, ultimately I have to put up with it, or kick them out.  Neither solution really benefits the game, or make you feel pleased with the outcome.
MalaeDezeld
member, 80 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 19:44
  • msg #26

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
or is it just something you have to accept as part of playing role playing games?

Mostly that. You are playing with people with different views on everything: different goals for playing, different ways they find the game pleasurable, different values. They won't choose what you would choose, they won't perceive the game environment like you would. This is probably part of the reason why Dungeon World (I assume other Apocalypse World derivatives too, but Dungeon World have a free SRD) made an explicit goal for the GM to "play to find out what happens".
Kessa
member, 568 posts
Dark Army:
Out to Lunch
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 19:45
  • msg #27

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

For many players, RPGs represent an opportunity to be something they wouldn't normally be able to be, whether that's a combat saavy knight, a fierce warewolf, or a professor of ancient archaeology. In the same way, players may desire to play character personalities that aren't their own. Depending on the system, there's a greater likelihood that the rules will define what they can do more than how they should act, and in many instances players may not actually know how their character ought to act, specifically because they are playing something foreign to them. Some people are better at putting themselves in others shoes, or put in more effort to learn what another setting/ culture is like, than others for whatever reason.

However, they may just as well feel that their character really is acting appropriately to that circumstance-- and in that vein, how is a GM to tell someone how to play their own concept of their character? It may not work with the game that's running, but there are plenty of ways to work with that as mentioned already, from enforcing the appropriate ramifications in-game, to talking to the player to see if their view of the game/ setting is the same as the one that's being run and coming to some resolution because of that, to suggesting swapping one character with another better suited to the game, to just letting them do whatever they do while the game moves forward with, or without them participating in the meat of it. All of those, I think, are appropriate and better in certain circumstances than others.

What I don't agree with is telling someone that they are 'doing it wrong' unless there's an actual wrong being done. That is, metagaming, godmodding, or acting out just for the sake of acting out to bring down the game. The first two of those are more easily identified than the third, since you can't really know someone else's intent until you talk to them about it and "punishing" a player for not doing something purposefully is just senselessly vindictive to me. If, in the end, you don't feel a player is a good fit for the game letting them know that upfront is a far better option. Sure, it's harder to be rejected after joining a game and building a character, but it's essentially the same reasoning for why some GMs screen with writing samples, or concepts before accepting RTJs. Sometimes you don't choose players well, and that's a lot less of an issue if you handle it thoughtfully and openly from the beginning assuming it's a player issue and not a character issue.

But, let's talk about game outcome a little bit too, since it has some bearing on this. It's very common for many GMs to bemoan that players destroyed their plot in the first few scenes of a game and that suggests something I find undesirable. At it's core, RPGs are collaborative storytelling. That means you need the GM as much as you need the players to tell the story. The story cannot be told only according to a GMs desires with players merely following along through an entirely scripted storyline. Players must be able to affect the storyline also, or it ultimately becomes a passive activity for them and is no longer collaborative at all-- it's the GMs story not the story of their characters. That's not to say that GMs shouldn't have general directions their game is intended to move in, or some over arching plot, or storyline, but more to say that they shouldn't require specific expected outcomes for specific encounters, or if they do, they should be just as prepared to react to changes in that assumed outcome as part and parcel of what it is to GM. If you do need a specific reaction, or a certain outcome from a PC, it's best to contact the player and figure out some way the character concept and the game concept can meet to make the game flow in the needed direction. This wouldn't be for every post, obviously, but for scenes where the game premise, or ability to move forward is dependent on going down a lonely alleyway instead of getting a bite at the burger place, the need to work that out is well worth it and should be entirely within the ability for a reasonable player and GM to work out.
donsr
member, 1372 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 19:46
  • msg #28

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In all the  years  I GMed here, I  Kicked  one  player out  who became overly excessive  on 'how the game should me"...nope? My game... I take in put, but not demands... it bubbled over into the game where actions effected  other Characters..so..yeah. he was gone...I don't get paid  enough  to put up with that.

the flip side, I had a pair of players who seemed dead set  on  messing up each other's RP.... a PM  that said "..if you can't get along, perhaps  this isn't the game for you".

 they  settled down  and have been decent  players  for the last couple years.

 My advice..as a GM/DM... you run the game how you envision it...look at  requests  and suggestions  sent to you in PM with an eye that says " will this help the game"

 I have seen players in the past ( tons of the  in the older days  before I came here)..that are  only there  to screw up games...Don't let them ruin the game for you as a GM, or the other players.
facemaker329
member, 7043 posts
Gaming for over 30
years, and counting!
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 21:39
  • msg #29

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
RPOL makes dealing with any sort of situation with an in game solution (such as allowing a player to speak rudely to an NPC only to let it come back and bite them in the butt) a lot less satisfying...


The flip-side is, RPOL makes it extremely easy to deal with players whose style of play rubs yoh the wrong way.  Your game, run it your way...there's nothing that says you can't PM a player and say, "I feel like your approach to the game is flippant and impeding the experience for others, and I'd appreciate you taking things more seriously or finding a game that fits your style better."

Granted, with everything already said about cause and effect and consequences...doing that will have repercussions.  He could quit and take other players with him, he could bad-mouth about you to everyone he knows...other players could take exception to your method and jump ship.  It's largely a question of how much his play-style bothers you.

The whole 'consequences' thing may be too burdensome to correct the current problem...but instituting it right from the start in future games could spare you additional frustration.  Personally, I've always played my characters with the thought that their actions would have consequences...sometimes they talk big, but it's generally either a situation where they've already beaten the bad guy, or they have reinforcements coming and even if they get slapped down for mouthing off to the Big Bad, it will set up the reinforcements for a great initial strike, or the situation appears beyond all hope and the best apparent option is to make a brave stand and go down swinging.  But I had the benefit of having a string of GMs, when I was getting into gaming, who operated with the philosophy of, "I will not kill your character...but if you decide to do something suicidally stupid, I won't save your character, either."  That did a lot to encourage thinking about the possible fallout of your actions...
This message was last edited by the user at 05:30, Wed 08 Aug 2018.
donsr
member, 1373 posts
Tue 7 Aug 2018
at 21:51
  • msg #30

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Indeed.. with  what facemaker  said.... in  my  RTJ interviews  I state..and sometimes have the Vets  recount it in OOC....".. I am not a character Killer, but if you walk into a Dragon's mouth, to get the gem stuck in its teeth , yoou are going to get eaten"
icosahedron152
member, 889 posts
Wed 8 Aug 2018
at 04:14
  • msg #31

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

donsr:
In all the  years  I GMed here, I  Kicked  one  player out  who became overly excessive  on 'how the game should me"...nope? My game... I take in put, but not demands... it bubbled over into the game where actions effected  other Characters..so..yeah. he was gone...I don't get paid  enough  to put up with that.


Heh. I had a similar situation once. Player started out making some helpful suggestions, but over the course of several weeks his ongoing suggestions became demands, he was 'flipping off' a local gang leader that I'd already warned him not to antagonize, both IC and OOC, and he even wanted to dictate how I handled recruits to the game. He resigned the day I was going to fire him.

facemaker:
I had the benefit of having a string of GMs, when I was getting into gaming, who operated with the philosophy of, "I will not kill your character...but if you decide to do something suicidally stupid, I won't save your character, either."  That did a lot to encourage thinking about the possible fallout of your actions...


A man (or woman?) after my own heart. :)
Brianna
member, 2158 posts
Wed 8 Aug 2018
at 05:50
  • msg #32

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Most of the comments are about irritating (or worse) the more powerful characters or monsters, but even the barmaid at the local dive probably has friends and family.  They might not attack you face to face, but they can sure make your life miserable, even deadly if you persist in being rude and insulting to her.  No fire in your room, or it's in the attic?  So sorry.  Cramps all night because there was a little extra something in your dinner or drink?  Oh, dear, you must have caught the 'bug' that's been going around.  And if you still don't get it, next you find all the inns are full, a lot of the shops are very expensive, none have any (decent) food left, or it's actually a deadly poison next time.
NowhereMan
member, 247 posts
Wed 8 Aug 2018
at 06:02
  • msg #33

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

There is an NPC Mafia boss in one of my games that, should someone disrespect him, he apologizes to them and concludes their meeting immediately. If they get the point and apologize, he will forgive them up to three times. After that, or if they don't apologize for disrespecting him, he puts a hit out on them as soon as they leave. He has been disrespected in a game exactly one time.
icosahedron152
member, 890 posts
Wed 8 Aug 2018
at 06:57
  • msg #34

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

By sheer coincidence, I was looking through my back threads for something else, and stumbled across an example of an IC warning I gave to set a scene:

Lincoln’s Inn.
Mr Price was sitting at his desk as Alexander entered the office. He cocked half an ear to his assistant’s query as he continued to browse a sheaf of papers.
“Oh, he’s contacted you, has he? That’s good. The Earl is perhaps the stoutest string I can pull for your friends.” He looked over his glasses. “Make sure everyone is on their best behaviour when you meet him, Alexander, the Lord Chief Justice of Middlesex is not a man that you  - or I - would desire to offend.”


This was a great group of players, who would be sensible without a heads up, but I often add guidelines automatically.

Apologies for the italics, but Rpol won't let me post the extract as a quote!
Hunter
member, 1461 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Thu 9 Aug 2018
at 02:26
  • msg #35

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I'll comment first when someone referenced LoTR, and the council that decided upon the fellowship.    While the whole saga is told around the hobbits, you also have to remember that they were (as far as the rest of the world was concerned) nobody.   What was going to happen to them was going to be decided without them having any say or input.

Edit: The two things to bear most often in mind are "Actions have Consequences" as well as "Player Characters tend to have Delusions of Grandeur".

Concerning social conventions:
You might be a high-level fighter, but you're still just a farmer with knife as far as the rest of the world is concerned.    So don't be surprised when the King doesn't have time to deal with you and you get shuffled off onto some low level courtier.

You might be the youngest son of a high ranking noble, but unless you're the heir, then you're expected to do what you're told.    See the movie Solomon Kane for an idea how that tends to work.

You might be the newest hotshot prodigy, but you're still a grunt.

And so on.



You also have to be careful on how you handle modern ideas in a non-modern setting.   Yeah, a flying machine might seem like a great idea...but where did the idea come from.    The old AD&D flashlight idea jumps to mind.

As an example:
While alcohol use was common in medieval times, many players still try to stop underage drinking.   Even though that's what everyone drank because the water wasn't safe to drink.
See Life on a Mediaeval Barony by William Stearns Davis for a basic grasp of social structure of the time period.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:21, Thu 09 Aug 2018.
Kioma
member, 45 posts
Thu 9 Aug 2018
at 13:54
  • msg #36

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Hunter:
What was going to happen to them was going to be decided without them having any say or input.

Except the Ringbearer, who was seen as touched by Fate enough to have a voice in Council despite humble origins.  Tolkien Elves took the machinations of Fate very seriously.  Otherwise, largely true - the Hobbit species was generally seen, by those who even knew they existed, as rustic, naive and unimportant.
GreyGriffin
member, 217 posts
Portal Expat
Game System Polyglot
Thu 9 Aug 2018
at 17:53
  • msg #37

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

The Hobbits, though, were not D&D characters.  Aragorn, Legolas, Gandalf, Boromir, and Gimli represent much more archetypal D&D characters.  The Hobbits were part of their escort quest.  Appropriately for players, they lost the two important ones.
Nazid
member, 109 posts
Sat 11 Aug 2018
at 15:14
  • msg #38

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

IF the issue is the players being "too big for their britches", then the NPCs need to be bumped up.  The King need not be a high-level anything, but his guards should be.  In a Fantasy setting his guards should be at least the same level as the highest level PC or higher.  And there should be a least one Mage and Cleric near the King.  It would be a suicide run.  Remember, those guards have adventured before becoming royal guards. And they have magic items too.

If it's just a character not being afraid of something that can kill him, look at video game players. Thye have become used to running head-on into deadly situations because if you die, you respawn. Or, as in the case of WoW, there really are not deadly situations until you reach major bosses. This is the mental state they have.

And let's face it, its hard to scared of what you're reading. No one wants to play the coward.  We can do that in real life.  In the game, we want to be bigger and stronger than our real selves.
facemaker329
member, 7044 posts
Gaming for over 30
years, and counting!
Sat 11 Aug 2018
at 16:00
  • msg #39

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I think there's a wide gap between 'playing a coward' and 'displaying appropriate caution.'  You don't have to quake and cower at every major threat...or ANY major threat, for that matter.  But displaying some recognition that, say, this alien creature that you've never seen before, or the mature dragon whose lair you just stumbled into, could seriously mess you up adds dimension to the game.  You can still go ahead and attack...but the rest of your group will resent having to drag out what's left of your mangled corpse a lot less if you didn't just blindly charge in, totally heedless of the danger (unless that's just how your character is...I played in a party with a paladin who was like that, and it became a major and enjoyable part of the game, protecting the paladin from his own stupidity...but it was a character choice by the player, not just a player who charged headlong into everything.  He sometimes spent a lot of time fretting over the fact that he was likely to lose his character going after this or that bad guy, and making sure that he wasn't screwing the game up for anyone else by playing that way.)

I suspect your point about MMO tactics becoming part of 'regular' RPGs is a big part of the problem...but I never got into MMOs, so I have no first-hand experience to support that assertion.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1403 posts
Sat 11 Aug 2018
at 20:08
  • msg #40

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I second the assertion that mmo thinking likely plays into it, though I am of the opinion that mmos were designed based on "playing the rules" type of play and thus the two have entered into a feedback loop, strengthening that type of thinking both at the table and the monitor.
Gaffer
member, 1527 posts
Ocoee FL
40 yrs of RPGs
Sun 12 Aug 2018
at 23:15
  • msg #41

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

aguy777:
As for PCs never being afraid of things, I can't control that as a GM so easily. D&D 5e has Inspiration, which allows me to reward those who play their character, but some characters are the typical Captain America-types who never surrender/back-down/flinch. I'd be interested to hear if someone has a solution for those characters, other than OOC saying "no".

Kill them.
Gaffer
member, 1528 posts
Ocoee FL
40 yrs of RPGs
Sun 12 Aug 2018
at 23:22
  • msg #42

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In reply to engine (msg # 9):

gladius dei:
It also seems a bit extreme to jump to kicking them automatically because they want something different than you want.

If you got people together for a volleyball game and one person was diving under the net and tackling opponents because he wanted to play rugby, what would you do?
horus
member, 540 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 01:12
  • msg #43

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Gaffer:
Kill them.


Or you could just wound them enough to show them their butts can be kicked -- that they are not the baddest-apple son of a buckwheat in the valley.

Players such as those described should be made to understand they do not always have enough firepower, that bigger, badder, and stronger adversaries await them as they gain experience.  That sometimes they can run into those bigger, badder and stronger adversaries before they are ready.

If you can't make them understand that, go ahead, nuke 'em from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.
This message was last edited by the user at 07:42, Mon 13 Aug 2018.
donsr
member, 1377 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 02:38
  • msg #44

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

there are worst things  then killing them...

If they are just sloppy,  they get wounded.. lose a level..knocked  down in rank ect ect.

 If they  are hurting  the game.. or  do , overly stupid stuff...then, of course, they die.
icosahedron152
member, 896 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 05:39
  • msg #45

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Lol. the last few posts remind me of the 'cut their gooseberries off' sketch on the UK comedy show Not the Nine O'Clock News, a couple of decades back. (Edit: it's on You Tube, but I'm probably not allowed to link to it).

I like the volleyball analogy. :)
This message was last edited by the user at 05:46, Mon 13 Aug 2018.
horus
member, 541 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 07:41
  • msg #46

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

donsr:
there are worst things  then killing them...

If they are just sloppy,  they get wounded.. lose a level..knocked  down in rank ect ect.

 If they  are hurting  the game.. or  do , overly stupid stuff...then, of course, they die.


Yeah, those are all viable alternatives to the nuke from orbit thing, but I think the original poster's take on this is that the character(s) in question have already hurt a game or games.

Anyhoo, here we are suggesting, in the words of Khan Noonian Singh, that the GM hurt such players, and go on hurting them.  That's gotta take the fun out of it for somebody (probably somebody for whom RPGs are about "winning" and "losing".)

Any D&D style world (or Traveller style world) I've ever played in was a mean son of a biscuit eater to players such as this.

A little home-brewed monster like the Giggle Stones (which cause any who pick them up to laugh uncontrollably until they pass out, then become from 2-12 new Giggle Stones if they fail their saving throw vs paralysis) can also add spice to a campaign.  There are all sorts of traps the GM can set for the unwary that are not traps in the classical sense.

The correctives that can be applied in these types of situations are virtually limitless (or, more correctly, only as limited as the GM's fiendish imagination).

I'm not suggesting any vindictiveness or vengeful motive on the part of the GM is at all necessary.  Consider these occasions "teachable moments", if you will.  Become the impartial, dispassionate, uncaring Chaos at the center of your universe.

I mean, what character of any level wants a piece of that?
evileeyore
member, 106 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 07:55
  • msg #47

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

horus:
The correctives that can be applied in these types of situations are virtually limitless (or, more correctly, only as limited as the GM's fiendish imagination).

I've found that that attitude is worse than useless, it's actively harmful.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1404 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 09:33
  • msg #48

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I would not necessarily call it actively harmful, no more than giving a sound butt-kicking to someone who thinks they can interfere with your volleyball game. That said, I do think most people deserve a "talking to" first, just to make sure they aren't simply misunderstanding things, which is sadly very possible given that no one wants to admit to the varieties of rpg styles as being anything more complex than combat vs intrigue.

But that "talking to" need not always be a literal ooc talk. Sometimes things can be done in-game to make things evidently different from expectations, and not all such options need to be the sort that kicks the pcs butt.

Just look to movies, books, comics, and other media for all kinds of ideas.

It happens in many stories that the bad guy gets away and/or achieves the next step of their plans without defeating the heroes in combat.

Sometimes the villain is distracting the heroes while minions steal the mcguffin, then escape.

Another thing that has happened in a game I played in, though for different reasons, was we went after the bbeg, and the whole time the bbeg sat in her throne while her guards fought us, until our monk attacked the bbeg directly killing her with a single blow, only to discover that the bbeg was actually the kidnapped girl we were sent to rescue under an illusion, thus our monk actually killed the girl were trying to rescue.

Doing something similar might drive home the need to avoid making assumptions about who to attack.
evileeyore
member, 107 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 12:59
  • msg #49

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

DarkLightHitomi:
That said, I do think most people deserve a "talking to" first, just to make sure they aren't simply misunderstanding things...

Not some, all people.

quote:
But that "talking to" need not always be a literal ooc talk.

Yes it should be.  Otherwise all your showing is that it is a competition of who can win.  And the GM can always win.
Nazid
member, 110 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 13:32
  • msg #50

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Honestly, it's usually us as GMs that are at fault when players get this way.  We have coddled them and gave them way too much magic or OP characters and they start to get that unkillable feeling. I can't say I have ever seen a 1st level character that didn't cringe in fear for the 2nd giant centipede they met.  :-)
Hunter
member, 1462 posts
Captain Oblivious!
Lurker
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 15:54
  • msg #51

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In reply to Nazid (msg # 50):

Usually but not always.    Back when I was still learning to GM, I gave Top Secret a spin.   Unfortunately for me, the people playing decided that they'd rather do some variant of grand theft auto.    Game didn't last the full session.
donsr
member, 1378 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 16:10
  • msg #52

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In the end?  You want to make the game fun for  players...but you also have to keep it out of the realms of god-mode.

 players have been warned in my games.... some choose to ignore it . If it  effects my  game  and  my 'good' players, I will suggest to then, that perhaps my game isn't the best fit for them( which is true).

 some of the  ...more   hard headed players... tend to put themselves in the postion, where their  characters   can..and sometimes do..die..

 they generally leave after that, rather then start all over with a new Character.

 None of us here get paid enough to put  up  which players  who disrupt , or steal enjoyment from the   better players..there is no reason, at all, to keep someone around  who does this.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1405 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 23:19
  • msg #53

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

evileeyore:
quote:
But that "talking to" need not always be a literal ooc talk.

Yes it should be.  Otherwise all your showing is that it is a competition of who can win.  And the GM can always win.


And yet my suggestions were non-competative and had consequences other than victory/defeat.

There are two major issues here,

First, is gamey thinking. Some players are introdhced to rpgs as a boardgame, and thus learn to expect and play the game like a videogame. The default expectation is thus that every encounter should be a balanced encounter with the goal of player victory over the encounter. Notice the entirely metagame thinking here.

Second, is that the above thinking is not changed until the player is faced with non-mechanical consequences that are highly significant to them. Thus, breaking them out of the above mentioned gamey thinking is to hit them with strongly motivating consequences that are based entirely on the world milieu and not mechanics. This is what makss them stop judging everything as a boardgame and start looking at the actual narrative world to judge consequences.

An example of this technique to shift exoectations at work (though for different expectations) is actually given in an Extra Credits youtube video, when they talked about how in one game, the player's first mission has a 5 minute time limit, so when the player starts inspecting everything, cause it is a game and that is what you do in games, they end up being late and lose that first mission, driving home that the world does not wait on them.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1406 posts
Mon 13 Aug 2018
at 23:28
  • msg #54

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Some folks seem to think such player behavior is because they are bad players, and while it might be true for some, most players learn certain expectations and "rules" from other sources, such as gms that have those ideas, or even from video games, and then the players operate acvording to those expectations and learned behaviors without even realizing it until it proven to them through firsthand (or rarely secondhand) experience that such expectations and habits are wrong.

It is important to note the, probably uncomfortable, notion of this happening without that player being able to see it in themself. It is an unconcsious thing and therefore must be dealt with unconcsiously.

True, some folks learn to be aware of such things, but even for them, it is much easier to handle after appropriate firsthand experiences rather than just talking.
evileeyore
member, 108 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 02:12
  • msg #55

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

DarkLightHitomi:
And yet my suggestions were non-competative and had consequences other than victory/defeat.

That doesn't matter as much as properly and clearly establishing the social contract in the first place, and reinforcing it via OOC discussions when the Players are violating it.


Going straight to "teach them via consequences" is often inappropriate and often leads to exacerbating the problem.  Also, if when you talk to them OOC they shoot down the social contract, you know anything more is a waste of time.

Cut the Player free, find better ones.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1407 posts
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 13:07
  • msg #56

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

How they respond to "teaching via consequences" tells you a great deal more about them than any conversation ever could. As for social contracts, that should be established with everyone before play even starts. This sort of problem occurs because that social contract wasn't understood in the first place, and if it wasn't understood to begin with, then a simple ooc talk is highly unlikely to clarify anything.

Heck, even with pro game designers I have to play 20 questions to get an idea of them as players, because even those pros can't talk about it very well. But simply playing with them reveals those answers and more. And that is pros, the people whose job it is to understand this stuff.
Gaffer
member, 1531 posts
Ocoee FL
40 yrs of RPGs
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 14:59
  • msg #57

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

quote:
aguy777: As for PCs never being afraid of things, I can't control that as a GM so easily. D&D 5e has Inspiration, which allows me to reward those who play their character, but some characters are the typical Captain America-types who never surrender/back-down/flinch. I'd be interested to hear if someone has a solution for those characters, other than OOC saying "no".

Gaffer:Kill them.


donsr:
there are worst things  then killing them...

If they are just sloppy,  they get wounded.. lose a level..knocked  down in rank ...

If they  are hurting  the game.. or do overly stupid stuff...then, of course, they die.

I wasn't suggesting that character death should be the penalty for all fractious behavior, or a punishment at all.

I was responding specifically to "PCs never being afraid of things". Teach them to fear the right things by letting a bad 'un show them the consequence of their hubris. Anything less and they'll just think they were unlucky THAT TIME and the same character is still around to act the same way.

Let nature (or un-nature) take its course. Kill them.
donsr
member, 1379 posts
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 15:14
  • msg #58

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

 Gaffer?... the  'punishments ' posted  were for  those who hurt the game.. either the flow, or the enjoyment of the other players?

 Losing  one player who ignores the  wishes of the GM, and or  other  players , need to find another game.

 GOOD... players    catch on..ask questions  and get into the flow...That's what you want in PBP, because  you want your  game to grow and Flow.
evileeyore
member, 109 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 21:22
  • msg #59

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

DarkLightHitomi:
This sort of problem occurs because that social contract wasn't understood in the first place, and if it wasn't understood to begin with, then a simple ooc talk is highly unlikely to clarify anything.

It has always worked for me.  Whereas the GM simply continually pounding on my character because I'm "doing something wrong" (and when they don't bother explaining anything OOCly) just makes me think the GM is being a [EXPLICATIVE DELETED].
gladiusdei
member, 721 posts
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 21:44
  • msg #60

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

This thread seems to have totally focused on the more extreme examples of what I was talking about.  I was talking more about subtle things that don't necessarily ruin the game as a whole, but can really make a gm lose enthusiasm.  Like players assuming their character simply won't look at things the way the game world implies, or deciding that their character is the exception to dramatic aspects of the game that the books set out.

A good example is Vampire the masquerade.  Players often totally ignore the aspects of the game that detail the beast, and how it controls a vampire.  The books are very explicit in showing that every vampire is one botched roll away from being a possible murderer, and that for older vampires it is guaranteed that they have failed these rolls at some point, simple odds dictate that, and so all vampires live with the knowledge that the beast is the uinsurmountable rift between human and vampire.  That's why older vampires begin to lose their humanity at an accelerated rate.

But many players have a tendency to dismiss this, and assume that their character simply wouldn't have a problem with it.  That they can still act human, and be successful at it, even though the existential crisis at the core of the vampire game is the fact that you simply can't resist the beast forever.  That it is inevitable, and is why vampire is a tragic game.  Your characters are monsters, not people.

when players miss this aspect of the game, it doesn't kill the game.  It isn't necessarily something that is big enough to warrant kicking a player out of the game.  But it can seriously destroy dramatic tension in a situation, and make the gm, me at least, lose quite a bit of enthusiasm.  Fixing it in game by forcing a frenzy roll or situation where the player is confronted by their beast, could take months of real life time.  And bringing it up OOC often feels like I'm lecturing players on how to play, or at least can be misconstrued as that.  This is why I was so frustrated and not sure how best to handle it.
This message was last edited by the user at 05:29, Wed 15 Aug 2018.
evileeyore
member, 110 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 22:25
  • msg #61

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
And bringing it up OOC often feels like I'm lecturing players on how to play, or at least can be misconstrued as that.  This is why I was so frustrated and not sure how best to handle it.

Nothing you can do.  If explaining to the Player a few times the way the setting and genre are supposed to work and be played doesn't get through to them, then you have two choices:

1 - Accept it and keep running the game.
2 - Find 'better' Players.



Some people play to 'escape reality' and 'be more than they are'.  Some play to run a tactical miniatures game.  Some play for the 'beer and pretzels' level, soft interaction mostly chilling and laughing with friends.  Some get 'into it' and are driven for pathos and 'deep immersion'.

Figure out what you want, make it clear, and then hunt for Players who want the same thing.
hegemon
member, 154 posts
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 23:19
  • msg #62

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

One of the things I have done recently is speak to them via voice service, so I can see how our personalities mesh. Also, has helped me set expectations, and just as important see what their expectations.

I have found by making that personal connection I and the player have felt more invested in each other as people. This has helped make my games more successful in the player management area.
donsr
member, 1380 posts
Tue 14 Aug 2018
at 23:36
  • msg #63

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

  I sorta have an Interview.. I lay out the game,  what I expect, and what they can expect .. some will change their mind.. some will play for a bit  and  either be over whelmed  or  not very  active.

  those that stay will stay for  a while,  in 71/2 years I hade to  'release' two players for the betterment of the game.


 The players know going in, my games  aren't for everyone..a bit darker, with  anti-hero stuff... all I ask  is they  tell me they are leaving.. every player owes the GM that much... as  every GM owes players  the  consideration of   saying when they are going to shut  down, or bail on thier own game.


 Players  need to becaome part of the game.. I have two newer players that ask  questions in PMs   or OOC.. and  my Vets , or myself  will help them along.. they are becoming   well meshed into the flow of the game.


 those are the players  every GM  wants.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1408 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 04:03
  • msg #64

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

evileeyore:
It has always worked for me.  Whereas the GM simply continually pounding on my character because I'm "doing something wrong" (and when they don't bother explaining anything OOCly) just makes me think the GM is being a [EXPLICATIVE DELETED].


Except I never said to pound the player in question. Actually, my suggestion was to teach in play without pounding. That was the entire point of my response.
evileeyore
member, 111 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 04:59
  • msg #65

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

DarkLightHitomi:
Except I never said to pound the player in question. Actually, my suggestion was to teach in play without pounding. That was the entire point of my response.

And my point is, without the OOC talk, it's just pounding the character.  Even if it's pounding on the entire party equally.
icosahedron152
member, 898 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 05:24
  • msg #66

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

quote:
bringing it up OOC often feels like I'm lecturing players on how to play, or at least can be misconstrued as that.

If they need lecturing, then do it.

I haven't played Vampire, but I've picked up a bit from chat. It seems to me that vampires are (or used to be) people, and they will naturally try to avoid doing 'beastly' things, but the rules presumably have measures (dice rolls?) that make it impossible to avoid this. Isn't that the idea of the game?

If they're acting too human, they need more situations that confront them with their new nature. The same process is occurring in-game and meta-game: they want to act human, but the Beast/GM forces them into diabolical deeds. Players and characters alike slowly realize that they are not in control of the vampire they have become.

It may take weeks or months for this realization to dawn, but if that is an aspect of the game that you specifically want to explore, the time is not wasted, it's an integral part of the game.

However, the players need to know, up front, that you are running an adversarial game: that the GM, in many ways is the Beast, and that ultimately they will lose control of their character.

It may be particularly difficult for a player to fully understand this, since in most games there is an unwritten law that the GM doesn't take over or puppet a PC, but in this game losing control of your character is part of the game play.

It may be that even experienced Vampire players are not used to this, since other GMs may have played down this aspect. If it's important to your game, it needs to be clearly specified OOC and then continually reinforced IC.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1409 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 07:16
  • msg #67

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 65):

No pounding means no pounding, not equal pounding.

Players cause problems like this precisely because they don't face appropriate consequences that reinforce the nature of the narrative world as a living breathing world and not simply a gameboard with cardboard pieces that never act real.
icosahedron152
member, 899 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 07:52
  • msg #68

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

Guys, IMO there is a distinct difference between 'pounding' and 'fate'.

Pounding is where some Player doesn't share his pretzels with the GM, or his PC argues with the GMPC, so the GM makes sure that every monster from that point on targets that PC first. Not fair.

Fate is where the PC snatches the Arkenstone from under Smaug's head and says "Yeah? Watcha gonna do about it, lizard?" The GM then describes a pair of smoking boots. Fair and logical.

In a good game, you need expectations of reality.
evileeyore
member, 112 posts
GURPS GM and Player
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 11:07
  • msg #69

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

DarkLightHitomi:
Players cause problems like this precisely because they don't face appropriate consequences that reinforce the nature of the narrative world as a living breathing world and not simply a gameboard with cardboard pieces that never act real.

Players cause problems like this precisely because they don't understand or agree with the game the GM wants to run or the expectations the GM has.

"Teaching them a lesson" is just teaching them that "the GM always wins".  And for some, all that will do is up the anti.



icosahedron152:
Guys, IMO there is a distinct difference between 'pounding' and 'fate'.

From the GM's side of the screen, yes.  From the Player's perspective?  Sometimes they are identical.

That's why I keep saying "Have the talk".  Ignoring the talk and going straigth to punishment mode rarely works.

quote:
Pounding is where some Player doesn't share his pretzels with the GM, or his PC argues with the GMPC, so the GM makes sure that every monster from that point on targets that PC first. Not fair.

No, pounding is where the Player has the Character take actions they expect to succeed and having those actions fail despite every expectation for success.  And for this to keep happening, over and over.

quote:
Fate is where the PC snatches the Arkenstone from under Smaug's head and says "Yeah? Watcha gonna do about it, lizard?" The GM then describes a pair of smoking boots. Fair and logical.

Sure, if the PC isn't expected to be capable of taking Smaug.  I've played games where that is not the expectation.

quote:
In a good game, you need expectations of reality.

False.  In a good game you need the Player's and GM's expectations to line up.  Nothing more, nothing less.

"Consequences", "reality", "verisimilitude", "consistency", etc.  These are not required for a 'good' game.  They are only required for genres that are built upon those words.
icosahedron152
member, 900 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 12:55
  • msg #70

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

quote:
False.  In a good game you need the Player's and GM's expectations to line up.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I'll concede that. That's where the OOC chat comes in, to make sure expectations do line up.

Personally, I'd never GM a game where the PCs could take on a dragon in personal combat, it's be too much of a headache trying to come up with challenges for them - but as you say, that's something players need to learn about me. Preferably very early on.
donsr
member, 1381 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 13:04
  • msg #71

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

 the thing to keep in mind.... this isn't table top.

  As GMs  we  run the  games  as much  for  our  enjoyment, as for the players. We cannot   'correct' little things  you might be able to do  as you sit around the table.

 Some folks like to Roll dice.. some folks  like Heavy RP. And that point must get across  , however you run your game.

 In the end?  If the player is taking away from the GMs format.. and/or  other  players  are  complaining, or leave because of this...then you get them  to follow your  rules or you  release the problem player , from your  game.

 The expectations   should be  well set  when yo answer their  RTJ.. if they do not like it  as the game begins, they should  thank the GM for thier  time and say "..this isn't for me".. or" this isn't what I thought"... and the GM should do the same.

 there are 100s  of games here to play..no one should feel slighted.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1410 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 15:35
  • msg #72

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I've never had nor seen an ooc talk solve this kind of issue, jot in nearly 20 years of gaming as both player and gm.

I have been that player complained about and told off for "not being a team player" cause the group was doing really weird stuff that they thought of as the popular true gaming style. It took paying attention to the in-game to figure out the problem, cause the gm couldn't make it clear.

I've never seen a different outcome.

Now perhaps there might be some miracle of a communicator out there for a gm, but using the gameplay doesn't require an extraordinary capacity for communication, and ooc talk requires miraculous communication.
donsr
member, 1382 posts
Wed 15 Aug 2018
at 16:04
  • msg #73

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

 I have  had  years ago, on other sites, GMs   'outing' players on this.

 on this  site, I have seen other players  attack GMs ( to which I would normally  reply in standing up for the GM)

 In my games,  I will get PMs  from players  asking me to step in on issues  that the offending player is doing...and.. I do..

 In the end?.. The game and the players who enjoy it, are more important to me then the players  who are disruptive ( no matter   the way)

 Better  to  release the   offending  player, the  ruin it for those who have  helped grow the game.
Brianna
member, 2159 posts
Thu 16 Aug 2018
at 01:31
  • msg #74

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

In reply to donsr (msg # 73):

Indeed!  Else you end up with only the disruptive players left, while the others have gone looking for something they can actually enjoy.
horus
member, 542 posts
Wayfarer of the
Western Wastes
Sat 18 Aug 2018
at 00:54
  • msg #75

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I can see some of my previous posts here may have touched off contentious debate.  Such was not my intent.

Adieu.
DarkLightHitomi
member, 1411 posts
Sat 18 Aug 2018
at 06:06
  • msg #76

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

I find that disruptive are sometimes just expecting a different style of play, and usually putting them through situations that have very clear consequences according to the style of game being played sorts out such players, especially if it also denies the sort of rewards they were expecting. Generally, this leads to either a shift in how they play, or they realize the difference for themselves and leave on good terms (which to me is much preferable to leaving on poor terms).

Only once have I had a player leave on bad terms. He was a new player that wanted to say he was evil yet refused to ever do evil things. I never figured out why it was so important to him to be called evil. It didn't matter to him about npc responses either. He didn't care that npcs treated him like a decent person. He just wanted to claim being evil without actually being evil.
MalaeDezeld
member, 82 posts
Sat 18 Aug 2018
at 21:22
  • msg #77

Re: Players not playing in character 'correctly'

gladiusdei:
Like players assuming their character simply won't look at things the way the game world implies, or deciding that their character is the exception to dramatic aspects of the game that the books set out.
[...]
Players often totally ignore the aspects of the game that detail the beast, and how it controls a vampire.


I kind of had a similar problem with D&D and White-Wolf: to me, the mechanical rules aren't in sync with their setting (or the kind of stories I see in the fluff and want to replicate). This discrepancy can be bridged by talking or with in-game consequences like other said, but in my case, I went system shopping (also because I wanted something more rule-light). Some subsystems of the Chronicles of Darkness (the 2nd edition of the New World of Darkness) can inspire you. Maybe V5 could be a better fit (I have yet to check the final version). One time, my friend made the players used different colors dice when the characters where low on blood (just for the psychological effect).
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