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07:57, 1st May 2024 (GMT+0)

Last Letter Conversation XXI.

Posted by Germ AntFor group 0
jioan
player, 5801 posts
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 13:30
  • msg #15

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

The modern computer may not be capable of human understanding in that it does not independently utilize the information it contains, but when prompted to complete a task it can process the information it contains without the user understanding or contributing to these methods which I consider to be knowledge.
Kagura
player, 18620 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 20:20
  • msg #16

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Eventually we'll come around to autonomous AIs. Hopefully when that time comes, they don't decide that the best way to protect humanity is to destroy humanity.

Although if one were to look at the vast majority of information available right now, a logical being would assume that humanity is the single greatest threat to all life on this planet and move to eliminate it without hesitation.
jioan
player, 5805 posts
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 21:39
  • msg #17

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Now that's only if its goal is the preservation of life.  If we go with something similar to Asimov's laws of robotics then it might value human life over other life.  It might also see humans as the best means to help life escape Earth and expand among the stars.
Kagura
player, 18622 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 23:38
  • msg #18

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Someone wasn't paying attention to Asimov's works. In nearly every story (especially the ones featuring Susan Calvin), something always went wrong with the robots because of the Three Laws, usually because either a conflict came up that the robot's AI couldn't resolve on its own (Runaround) or because the machine brain decided that the best way to execute the function of the laws was to "protect humanity from itself"... often by enslaving or otherwise removing people from the equation (The Evitiable Conflict).
jioan
player, 5812 posts
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 01:20
  • msg #19

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

That's how his stories play out, but I'm confident the laws could be applied in a way that the AI functions as intended with something like The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect as the end goal.
Kagura
player, 18626 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 04:16
  • msg #20

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Let's examine the Laws themselves though, shall we?

1. A robot shall not harm humans, or by inaction allow them to come to harm.
2. A robot shall obey all orders given to them by humans, unless the orders conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot shall protect its own wellbeing except when it would conflict with the First or Second Laws.

The problem comes with the First Law, which supersedes all else, wherein a robot (or AI) cannot allow "harm" to befall humankind. The Three Laws being ironclad and immutable, the "solution" put forth by The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect becomes invalid, as the AI in that story was able to allow for deviations - something that a computer mind should be unable to do as that implies a level of human empathy, a trait machines lack by definition.

I'm not quite certain this makes sense or remained on topic, but my scattering of thoughts to reach a conclusion gets worse when I'm tired. Apologies. I'll attempt to rework this tomorrow afternoon if I'm able.
jioan
player, 5816 posts
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 05:05
  • msg #21

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Eh, I think I got the gist of it.  On the tangent of computers acting like humans I'm interested in how one route to the singularity could be through getting a computer to emulate the human brain.  If that's a success then can a computer have feelings or is it only acting at having feelings?  Really cool stuff.
Kagura
player, 18629 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 20:08
  • msg #22

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

For my part, I don't think that even the best system emulating a human brain could truly have emotions, since emotion is primarily a chemical function rather than an electrical one. Therefore, regardless of whether from a parsing standpoint an experiment to create a computer to emulate the human brain is successful, such an ersatz brain would never be able to generate emotions of its own.
jioan
player, 5855 posts
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 20:23
  • msg #23

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Now couldn't a chemical environment be emulated with software?  It would be absurdly difficult, but should be possible.  I think computers will be capable of having emotions indistinguishable from humans.
Kagura
player, 18632 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 21:18
  • msg #24

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Somewhat unlikely, in my opinion. Mostly because we're not exactly sure, even now with all of our fancy tests and imaging equipment, exactly how emotions work. We know that certain parts of the brain are stimulated for certain responses, sure, but we don't really know how that translates into what we know as emotions.

Also, don't you think that computers with human-like emotions could be potentially dangerous? Humans with human-like emotions are pretty dangerous to begin with... why give a logical machine such a potentially crippling asset?
jioan
player, 5860 posts
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 21:32
  • msg #25

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

The thing is I'm thinking that in thirty years or so we'll be close enough to the truth to be able to create AI that humans can't tell their emotional impulses, expressions, and responses from that of another human although they won't be perfect replications.

I agree that a lot of harm could come from giving human emotions to certain AI, but there is definitely a market for them.  Her and Black Mirror come immediately to mind as examples of people wanting human-like AI.
Germ Ant
GM, 29343 posts
Shapechanging Alien
Minion Trainer
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 22:11
  • msg #26

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

In all honesty, we don't really know what emotions are. We just know them when we feel them. As such, if an AI tells me it feels an emotion (a true AI, and on its own initiative, not because it was programmed to profess an emotion), I don't see why I shouldn't believe it.

As for why we'd give AIs emotions, I doubt it will be done on purpose. Personally, I suspect emotions will turn out to be a natural, inextricable side effect of consciousness. Possibly even indistinguishable from it.
jioan
player, 5863 posts
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 23:13
  • msg #27

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

That's definitely possible although I think naturally occurring AI emotions will probably not resemble human emotions at all.  They'll be their own states that influence decision-making in ways we find strange because how an AI takes experiences into consideration will be different from humans unless purposefully programmed with care.
Kagura
player, 18636 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 00:27
  • msg #28

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Evil AI will always be a threat to humanity. But I for one welcome our new robot overlords.

Joking aside, I think before there are "naturally occurring" AI emotions, we'd need to have spontaneously generated AI. Any AI programmed by a human can't really be called an intelligence, as everything it does would be described in its programming... unless it managed to evolve, which is unlikely unless true learning algorithms could be programmed. IBM's Watson has pretty good machine learning skills, but in the end it's still just a (massive) computer database and clever programming.
jioan
player, 5865 posts
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 02:28
  • msg #29

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Goals such as a learning AI are definitely obtainable.  I think the next huge step for consumers will be an AI that can truly understand language and not just parse through it looking for key command words.  I'm probably being optimistic and it's decades off, but it will really change everything when it happens.
Kagura
player, 18638 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 03:53
  • msg #30

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Something closer might be the US vs. Japan giant robot fight that's probably going to happen next year. I've been waiting for this for almost 15 years...
jioan
player, 5868 posts
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 04:01
  • msg #31

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

So excited for that!  I hope it actually happens and somehow becomes an annual thing with other countries pitching in for an actual tournament style event.
Kagura
player, 18640 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 04:26
  • msg #32

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Then we would finally have "GUNDAM FIGHT ALL SET! READYYYYY... GO!!!"

And my life would be complete having seen how the least serious of all the Gundam series ever, truly began. But I swear to god if they don't get the guy who did the narrator's voice in the english dub of that show, it will be a loss to all mankind.
jioan
player, 5870 posts
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 05:52
  • msg #33

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Definitely.  I should watch more Gundam series. Unicorn is the only one I've seen all the way through and it's really short.
Kagura
player, 18642 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 21:55
  • msg #34

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Then I totally recommend G Gundam. It's flashy, over the top, and difficult to take seriously (until it suddenly turns into apocalyptically dark territory), but is widely accepted to be one of the best Gundam series ever created. Both the English dub and the original Japanese are equally awesome. Gundam Wing is also quite good, although I may be somewhat biased because it was a big part of my childhood, and Gundam Seed and Seed Destiny are good, but reactions are rather polarized love/hate.
jioan
player, 5873 posts
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 22:19
  • msg #35

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Each series is stand-alone then?  Is there a certain order I should watch them in or prerequisite watching?  I've always been confused by Gundam continuity.
Kagura
player, 18645 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 23:56
  • msg #36

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Yes, each Gundam series stands alone (with the exception of Seed and Destiny where Destiny is a more-or-less immediate sequel to Seed). There's no real continuity to the franchise, per se, although that may not be the case for some of the earlier series which I have not watched. The only real connection between them is the names of the mobile suits/models (e.g. Tallgeese, Gundam Zero, Zaku), that humanity is at war between factions and living in space colonies, and that there are five teenagers who pilot mobile suits who come together in a typical sentai group, regardless of which faction they originally fight for, who have to end the war somehow.
jioan
player, 5876 posts
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 04:23
  • msg #37

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Well then I'll add G Gundam to my list of anime to watch.  I'm finishing up Legend of the Galactic Heroes right now, and it's awesome.
Kagura
player, 18646 posts
Mostly Human
Mostly Harmless...
Mon 13 Jul 2015
at 04:00
  • msg #38

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

Excellent.
charlotteen
player, 2136 posts
Mon 13 Jul 2015
at 08:30
  • msg #39

Re: Last Letter Conversation XXI

the thing of excellence is it is rarely achived
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