OOC:

Rules question, Nthretha - if Syntari burrows around a while, and then pops up within sneak attack range of you, does he automatically catch you flat-footed?  (As though emerging from concealing bushes, or from invisibility, except he is emerging from cover instead).  Or, does he get to make a Hide check, and if you don't Spot him only then does he surprise you?

Also, if you are surprised, what is your Dex modifier that gets disregarded?

You don't know where I am aboveground, so I don't think you could unburrow and attack me without giving me time to know where you are.

my Flatfooted AC is 14

Well, Syntari can see you right now as it is, but he wants to burrow to a spot where you don't have partial cover from him.  He could just as easily run across the surface, I only like the idea of burrowing better.

So, no, he wouldn't have to orient himself to find you when he pops out of the ground, he knows where you are.

Going back to my prior question - should I roll a Hide check to be opposed by your Spot check, or is the surprise automatic?  (I honestly don't know what the rules require for this situation, I think it should be automatic surprise but I want to give you a chance to voice a differing opinion if you choose.)

Also, may I take it that your flatfooted touch AC is 10?  (For purposes of ranged touch attack).

EDIT:  It occurs to me you are picturing that Syntari will burrow down into the ground as you watch, move some distance, then come back up.  Though the rules would appear to permit hiding in that case, common sense would suggest that you would be on guard against an opponent coming out of the ground.  Let me clarify:  AFAIK, Nthretha currently does not see Syntari, but he sees her.  She will not see him burrow down into the ground, and will not have reason to expect him to pop back up anywhere.  He will emerge, knowing her exact location, without giving advance warning.  That's why I think the outcome *should* be automatic surprise.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:41, Sun 07 Oct 2007.

you know the square, but not the exact location, so I think that, while you would get surprise, you would also be subject to a 50% miss chance, similar to when you know the square of an invisible opponent, but can't actually see them.

Interesting.  So, you would say that if a rogue is hiding behind a pillar (total cover), but knows in what square his opponent is, and then suddenly peeks out from the side of the pillar to let loose an arrow (sneak attack), he gets a 50% miss chance even though he can plainly see his foe.  The rationale being that if he takes the time to actually look for where his opponent is in the square, he squanders his surprise.

I'll post this question on the OOC board, we'll see what the DMs come up with.  Unfortunately there is not a lot of material on burrowing, but this question can be recast in terms of partial and total cover, which there is more material on.

the rogue can still see around the pilliar without losing total cover, you must come out to attack. The rogue also has the chance to peek out at the persaon he is striking beforehand, and I think he would be subject to a hide check as well.

to sum up my argument, you need line of sight to attack. You cannot see through dirt. In order to attack, you would have to surface first to gain LOS.

Absolutely right about line of sight.  But Syntari wouldn't need to surface in order to get LOS, he just needs to poke his head above ground, which still gives him improved cover.

A couple of DMs have helpfully responded on the OOC forum, and it looks like what happens is this:  Syntari makes a hide check, Nthretha makes a spot check, if Syntari succeeds in the hide check then he gets sneak attack.

There's a catch.  When entering this arena I had assumed the terrain was earth (you know... river... riverbanks...).  DM Pinkbunny pointed out that the coloration on the map is grey, so, even though the map itself doesn't specify the type of terrain, she interprets that as being stone terrain, presumably with no sand cover.  I'm not entirely convinced, but I'm sufficiently convinced to start treating this arena map as having a stone floor in future matches.  For this match, though, since Syntari is already burrowed in, I see three options:

1.  Continue the match as though the terrain is earth.
2.  Continue the match as though the terrain is earth for the next round (i.e. let Syntari come out of the ground), and I won't have Syntari use his burrowing speed for the rest of the match.
3.  Scratch the fight, maybe have a rematch either on this map or another one.  (Lost temple?)

Up to you.  What would you prefer?

Nthretha and DM Pinkbunny are the same person :P

I think the fairest way to do this is to assume success on my spot check on your burrow attacks from this round, and on future rounds, play as usual, with the terrain being earth. As I was really assuming that the terrain was stone and wasn't expecting burrowing, I couldn't have planned for it, and would have taken a significantly different track if I had known. But I don't really see a reason to gimp your choice of alter self during the rest of the fight.

Blood and ichor, you have more forms than a doppelganger! :)

Your proposal seems fair.  I'll post Syntari's next round based on that.

Round 3:

Standing east of the river, south and east of the bridge, are a trio of identical Laertis, each gripping an identical wand.  They flash identical smiles at Nthretha as she comes into view, and seem entirely unaffected by her baleful utterance.  They stand on the following squares:
24D
23E
24F

Meanwhile, the wall of smoke dissipates; within a couple of heartbeats, it is gone, the last wisps fading into the air.  As though at a signal, the three Laerti approach each other in a huddle, appear to consult on something, then face Nthretha again, hold hands, and take a bow.  Twice.  And then they vanish.

A moment later, a mound of earth bursts from G25, scattering clods of dirt to reveal the domed head and horizontal-slitted eyes of a Laerti.  The reptilian humanoid commences an intricate and clearly practiced set of gestures and chants, at the end of which a shard of red-hot rock streaks toward Nthretha, a nimbus of arcane energy crackling around it.  Without waiting to see whether the bolt hits, Syntari ducks and prepares to burrow away from the fearsome warlock.

  [Move] Burrow to G25, -5' (shoulders and head above ground when standing up fully)
  [Free] End illusion
  [Standard] Cast spell (Kelgore's Fire Bolt) - hit touch AC 18
  [Free] Duck/kneel (shoulders and head below ground, probably 1' of earth between Syntari's head and the surface(*))

Status:
  Initiative: 12
  AC (Touch AC): 20 (14) (not including cover)

  Damage Taken:   0
  Damage Dealt:   ? (13 fire damage, reflex save for half, DC 15; +3 fire damage, no save)

Effects:
Alter Self - 30 minutes
Mage Armor - 3 hours

Final position: G25, -5' (total cover(?))

*)  I'm not sure the rules make a distinction between the game effects of standing vs. kneeling here.  It could be that Syntari is still deemed to be "adjacent" to the surface, resulting in improved rather than total cover.

EDIT:

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Syntari used his arcanist's gloves to get the Kelgore's Fire Bolt to 4d6.  He has one charge left today on the gloves.

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This message was last edited by the player at 03:02, Tue 09 Oct 2007.

For easy access:
<IMG SRC="http://www.madsloth.com/middle/pics/maps/crossroadsriver.jpg">

Round 3:
  [Standard] cast shatter
  [Move] move
  [Free]

I shatter the top button of your shirt, or some other ridiculously small and easily broken object that has 1HP and no hardness, for no chance to survive, even with half damage on my 3d6. DC15 Fort save or be deafened for 10 rounds and dazed for 1 round.

Status:
  Initiative: 11
  AC (Touch AC): 18 (14)

  Damage Taken:   9
  Damage Dealt:   0

Effects:
See the Unseen (darkvision 60', See Invisibility)- 18 Hours

Final position: G23

OOC: I'm thinking improved cover, as you don't leave tunnels behind, and clearing enough area to kneel would take movement.

05:35, Today: Nthretha rolled 21 using 1d20+5. ref save, DC15.

OOC:

Improved cover it is, then.

Shatter, when used against an object, allows a Will save to negate.  (3d6 with Fort save is against a crystalline creature, and Syntari's metal cloak-clasp is neither crystalline nor a creature).

23:47, Today: Syntari rolled 12 using 1d20+5. Will save (DC 15).

The clasp shatters.  Next, a Fort save to avoid being dazed.

23:48, Today: Syntari rolled 8 using 1d20+1. Fort save (DC 15).

Dazed, deafened.

Round 4:

  [Move] Dazed
  [Standard] *shakes head* Dazed

Status:
  Initiative: 12
  AC (Touch AC): 20 (14) (not including cover)

  Damage Taken:   0
  Damage Dealt:   9

Effects:
Alter Self - 30 minutes
Mage Armor - 3 hours
Deafened - 10 rounds
Dazed - 1 round

Final position: G25, -5' (improved cover)

04:44, Today: Nthretha rolled 5 using 2d6+1. damage.
04:42, Today: Nthretha rolled 22 using 1d20+8. to-hit eld blast.

Round 4:
  [Move] move
  [Free]
  [Standard] eldrich blast, hit touch AC 22(I think you're at 20, with +6 from cover)

Status:
  Initiative: 11
  AC (Touch AC): 18 (14)

  Damage Taken:   9
  Damage Dealt:   5

Effects:
See the Unseen (darkvision 60', See Invisibility)- 18 Hours

Final position: D20
This message was last edited by the player at 19:28, Fri 12 Oct 2007.

Yep, you hit.  With improved cover (+8), touch AC is 22, so you just barely make it.

Umm... E20 is your final position?  You're swimming?

meant D, fixed

Round 5:

With another shake of the head, Syntari's mind clears of the sonic-induced haze.  He quickly burrows down into the earth.

  [Move] Burrow
  [Free] ???
  [Standard] ???

Status:
  Initiative: 12
  AC (Touch AC): 20 (14)

  Damage Taken:   5
  Damage Dealt:   9


Effects:
Alter Self - 30 minutes
Mage Armor - 3 hours
Deaf - 9 rounds

18:51, Today: Syntari rolled 23 using 1d20+7. Hide.

If you make a Spot check that beats 33 (incl. +10 bonus from imp. cover), please see the first spoiler text but not the second.

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)

As he begins casting, Syntari quickly realizes he has mispronounced a key word, and aborts the attempt.  He stifles a curse and sinks low into his hiding place, hoping he isn't noticed.
Final position: C24, -5' (improved cover)

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)

Miscast:  Magic Missile.
EDIT: Free with Move: Ready bow. (I.e. grasp it, not a readied action)

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This message was last edited by the player at 01:05, Sat 13 Oct 2007.

Round 5:

Activate healing belt, one charge, 5ft step to C19 and take cover.

14:55, Today: Nthretha rolled 8 using 2d8. healy beltyness.

(OOC: sorry for the tardiness, life's a bit busy. Btw, I don't think you can tunnel under the river without being flooded out, which makes a swim speed the thing in question.)

No worries about tardiness.  Life's keeping me busy too.  I'll try and post tonight.

Round 6:

A raven-fletched arrow whizzes across the water and strikes Nthretha with a meaty thunk.  A hint of movement is momentarily seen at the arrow's point of origin, and then the battleground is still once more.

  [Standard] Fire shortbow (hits AC 22, damage 9 piercing)
  [Move] Burrow
  [Free] ???

Status:
  Initiative: 12
  AC (Touch AC): 20 (14)

  Damage Taken:   5
  Damage Dealt:   18


Effects:
Alter Self - 30 minutes
Mage Armor - 3 hours
Deaf - 8 rounds

If you make a Spot check that beats 30 (incl. +10 bonus from imp. cover), please see the spoiler text.

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)

Final position: C23, -5' (improved cover)

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I don't have time to keep up the fight properly, I think I'll concede this to you and maybe have a rematch when I have more time.

So be it, then.  Next time I guess we'll be trying out a new set of toys, too :)

>bump<

(I don't think this one made it into the Arena Records...)