Renaldi once again feels the grip os something grab ahold, slowing his movements and making it dificult to react to things around him.  He noticed the bow on the ground and moved closer to it.  The caster didn't have much left to cast, or at least he hoped that were the case, but either way he couldn't actually close the distance.  For now he would stay close to the bow on the ground cutting off that avenue of ranged attack.  It could be a bad call, but he had little choice, for now.

Round 8:
  [Move] 5' Step to L08
  [Free] None
  [Standard] Full Defense

Status:
  Init: 19
  AC (Touch AC): 26 (19)  (+1 Dodge bonus from dodge feat)
                          (+2 Shield and +6  dodge from tumble)
                          (-2 from Entagled Dex penalty)

  Damage Taken:   7 (10 healed)
  Damage Dealt:   19

Effects:
-7 Strength
Entagled until Round 11

Final Position: L08

OOC: I dropped the bow standing in O10

Quinlan makes another incantation and sends forth a streaking bolt of fire, sparks fly as the missile impacts on Renaldi. Then he picks up his bow.

Round 9:
  [Free]
  [Move]Pick up bow.
  [Standard] Cast KFB: reflex DC12 or take 16 damage (success means half damage, or none if you have evasion)

Status:
  Initiative: 7
  AC (Touch AC): 21 (14) -2 until next round

  Damage Taken: 19
  Damage Dealt: 7

Effects:
+2 Natural AC, 40 mins

Final position O09

OOC: Ah yes, the action order showed you dropped then moved, but your description shows during move.  Seems its likely somewhere between, but oh well.  No worries.

Renaldi is able to twist away from the blast just as it exploded, the force of which went over him rather than into.  What little did brush over him left nothing but a warm feeling.  Moving forward, hindered by the magical forces, Renaldi again brings his longsword to bear, the attempt was a miserable failure however, missing wildly.

Round 10:
  Reflex Save For KFB: 17, evasion.
  [Move] Move to N08
  [Free] None
  [Standard] fight Defensively (5 argh)

Status:
  Init: 19
  AC (Touch AC): 23 (16)  (+1 Dodge bonus from dodge feat)
                          (+2 Shield and +3  dodge from tumble)
                          (-2 from Entagled Dex penalty)

  Damage Taken:   7 (10 healed)
  Damage Dealt:   19

Effects:
-7 Strength
Entagled until Round 11

Final Position: N08

OOC: Could you explain how you get the +2 shield bonus from tumble? I can't find it.

ooc: I think he refers to this section under Skills->Tumble...

OOC: The shield bonus is from the Two Weapon Defense Feat, not from tumble, I see my note is a little misleading.  Those are actually two sepparate sources.


This message was last edited by the player at 15:54, Fri 28 Jan 2011.

Ok, cool. I've never seen that being used. The map has disappeared, so I'll wait a little before posting actions.

OOC:  Seems the site was down for a while... I couldn't get to it a while back either.  But looks like it is back up.

Quinlan ducks under the clumsy swing and cartwheels back a few steps before swiftly darting behind a pillar. He drops his rapier to the ground and draws another arrow. Peeking out from behind the pillar he launches it with deadly precision hitting Renaldi in the leg.

Round 10:
  [Free]Drop rapier
  [Move]Tumble out of range (22), then regular move to J12, hide (14)
  [Standard] Attack (31), confirm crit (16), damage (9) + 3 if fail spot DC 14

Status:
  Initiative: 7
  AC (Touch AC): 21 (14)

  Damage Taken: 19
  Damage Dealt: 16+3?

Effects:
+2 Natural AC, 40 mins

Final position J12

OOC: Any round you tumble, you can only make a half move, unless you take a -10 penalty to the roll.  Also, don't think you can hide while in combat(well you can at a -20), even after you move.  I made the spot check though, so it doesn't matter.

Once again the effect that keeps Renaldi from moving freely releases him and again he makes chase after his target, though he remains as closed as he can to avoid attacks.  His focus is boken however and he manages nothing effective.

Round 11:
  [Move] Moves to J11 (still can't see the map so not sure where pillar is, but I can get into range)
  [Free] None
  [Standard] Attack Defensively (4)

Status:
  Init: 19
  AC (Touch AC): 25 (18)  (+1 Dodge bonus from dodge feat)
                          (+2 Shield and +3  dodge from tumble)

  Damage Taken:   16 (10 healed)
  Damage Dealt:   19

Effects:
-7 Strength

Final Position: J11

OOC: Please indicate a reference where those rules are found. Regarding tumble the text describing the rules of the skill suggest you may tumble as part of movement, thus giving room to combine different move actions, such as moving silently or hiding. Nowhere does it suggest you need to spend all your movement tumbling. Also, BCM used the skill the same way as I did during our monk battles.


With respect to hiding I suspect you are mixing it up with the rules for sniping. The way I read the rules for hiding if I have cover I can attempt to hide:
Which is what I did. I ran behind the pillar gaining cover, then did the hide check, then attacked out of cover. The -20 to the hide check applies to sniping where you are hidden, attack, then attempt to hide again (at the -20 penalty).

OOC: I had suggested we move on, but...


As we are in the middle of combat, you are attacking.  You ran away from me, I was paying attention.  You ran behind a pillar and then poked your head out to shoot at me.  How can that be hiding?  I rolled against it, and I made the spot check.  So the ruling of either way is moot at this point.

As for the tumbling, its part of the quote you just gave:

If BCM used it that way, then perhaps you simply count any single space you move tumbling as 2 normal.  But this seems that you move at half speed for your normal move action.  Again, as I am able to move, I didn't want to press it at this point.

OOC: Since there's two specific problems here, I'll answer this in two parts. And I didn't have time to deal with both of them now.

The FAQ is rather vague on whether you need to Tumble at half-speed all the way or not:



That's two answers, two legal interpretations, though the second option is presented as something of a house- or custom-rule. Given the potential for confusion or conflict, I recommend that half-speed be applied to the entire move action (that's the way I've always understood it). Though you may roll and skip and cartwheel through a threatened area, landing and finding your feet after that can still slow one down.

Ayesha was a Monk and had a fair bit of movement. Though she Tumbled a lot, I'm certain I never had her do so for more than half her total movement.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:20, Wed 02 Feb 2011.

OOC: It is the same as for other types of combined movement: jumping and climbing. The explanation is there in the FAQ and it isn't even presented as a alternative rule, just as an "extra level of complexity" but it is really the same rules as for any movement through squares with varying movement cost. The reason for tumbling all the way is that it is mostly applied that way, as means to get around an enemy to flank, thus having to move through threatened squares all the way. To me a ruling like this is more of a house rule, and it is very, very limiting for rogues and monks.

OOC: "It's perfectly okay to rule that..." does suggest it as being more of an optional extra.

But the Rules Of The Game: All About Movement article makes it more explicit: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040622a
"Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action. Any distance you spend tumbling counts against your movement for the turn. You tumble at half speed, as if each square you tumble through costs you 10 feet of movement (15 if you tumble on a diagonal)."

So the second interpretation above, that Tumbling is square-by-square rather than a full movement, would seem to be correct. Well, more correct. :) Both versions are legally correct, as they are from official sources. So, I'd rule in favour of Quinlan's tumble-move. (Yes, I've backflipped on my previous post. I'm a scientist, I change opinions in face of new evidence. :D)


Now, the Hide thing. This is two issues. To quote the Hide skill: "If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went." This is exactly the case here: Quinlan moved and hid behind a pillar, which offers cover.

Of course, Renaldi still knows exactly where he is. (As an aside, hiding behind one pillar is pretty obvious. Using the cover of that pillar to move to a less-obvious hiding place is more effective.)

Now, the second part. "It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." The key word here seems to be 'while'.

The FAQ gives an example of a Spring Attack hide-attack-hide between cover/concealment routine which I'll use for an example, since I can't find a better one. Quoth the FAQ: "In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide check." and "This means that the character could begin hidden, move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer the –20 penalty on her Hide check)."

So, Quinlan is hiding. Quinlan is attacking. So he takes -20 on the previous Hide check. After all, Renaldi just watched him skip away, go around a pillar to face him again and shoot at him, and shouldn't be surprised in the least.

(Which makes a basic backstab from the shadows rather tricky, but I don't want to get into that now.)

Sorry to interject, but I want to address this question since it is relevant to another character of mine.  If you backstab while in shadows/darkness (20% concealment), you aren't leaving cover/concealment - so the Spring Attack example above is not applicable.  (I'm assuming the target is in darkness - i.e., you don't need to jump from the shadows into a torchlit-area, attack, then go back into the shadows because that would in fact be like the Spring Attack example).

In the "basic" backstab case - attacker and defender both in shadow - would the -20 still apply?

So, this ruling I'm not surprised with as we've had several similar questions over the years. Am I right to say that without performing a distractive act (bluff), then hide, the -20 penalty is there?
I accept the ruling but my problem here is: I have total cover, use a skill check to determine if my actions allow me to stay covered, then attack. While Renaldi knows where to go to spot me (no need for a spot check if I don't have cover anymore), he doesn't see me at the time of the attack and therefore is denied his dex bonus to AC. I happen to have issues with the rules for sniping as well, since they can't possible apply to someone having total cover (no need for a hide check since you can't be seen anyway).
If the condition is concealement (20% miss chance) the rules make sense.

Total concealment precludes firing a weapon.  If you have total concealment from someone, you can't see them either.  So the act of coming out of total concealment for your shot means there is a point in time that you become visible.  While I may not see you after you duck again, I can see you when you attack me, thus the -20.  I know where the arrow came from and I looked for you.

Concealment, for Garath, simply means you are partially concealed granting a miss chance for attacks against you and the opportunity to hide.  I can still see you, so if you attack I will be able to see you afterward, or attempt to should you hide.  Depending on the type of concealment it may give you a bonus to your Hide check, but in general it simply means that you are partially concealed, and therefore capable of being seen.  Attacking from that concealment provides a clear and obviously noticable action, thus the -20 to remain hidden.

The basics for rogues and monks is fairly simple, before you enter combat you can get the drop on someone.  After that you depend on allies to gain advantages in combat.

Alternatively you can disengage and run.  Remain completely hidden for a round and THEN move to another shadow.  Thus leaping out to attack from being hidden again.  Assasins (PrC) gain the ability to deal a LOT of extra damage if able to study the target, but they too have little chance of disappearing afterward.

And just as an aside, I made the spot check, so I would have known even if you had been able to hide.

I was talking about total cover, not concealment. Total cover can still grant line of sight, under certain conditions.

OOC: So are we going to continue this from where we stand?  It is your action.

Yes, but we have no map.

well the map was open, with 5 pillars, numbers top to bottom, letters left to right.  The first pillar was in the center, the others in a square around that.

We started on opposite sides of the central pillar, putting the center pillar somewhere on the 09 row.

Your current position would put you "BELOW" the piller in the bottom right side of the map.  Putting that pillar at J11.  As the p1llars on the outside are in a square, that leaves one Row and one column between the outside and inside pillar.
So, the Center pillar had to be at H09.

Finally to make it simple treat the arena as square as well (circles are more trouble to figure out) and we have the following map: Ala ASCII style

   A B C D E F G H I J L K M N O
   _____________________________
01| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
02| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
03| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
04| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
05| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
06| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
07| | | | | |X| | | |X| | | | | |
08| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
09| | | | | | | |X| | | | | | | |
10| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
11| | | | | |X| | | |X|R| | | | |
12| | | | | | | | | |Q| | | | | |
13| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
14| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
15| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
16| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
17| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
18| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
   -----------------------------

How's that work for you?
This message was last edited by the player at 08:57, Sat 05 Feb 2011.

That's fine except I am in position I12.

Your last post, msg #30, put you at J12, which is where I pulled the information from.  In either case, I had the movement to meet you, and attack, though I missed.  We can confirm our locations, then, at I12 for you, which would put me in I11.  Agreed?

Quinlan once more tumble out of range before moving swiftly out of range of the deadly two-weapon wielding Renaldi. He fires an arrow that is deflected by Renaldi's whirling blades.

Round 11:
  [Free]
  [Move]Tumble out of range (22), then regular move to D13
  [Standard] Attack (20), miss

Status:
  Initiative: 7
  AC (Touch AC): 21 (14)

  Damage Taken: 19
  Damage Dealt: 16

Effects:
+2 Natural AC, 40 mins

Final position D13