Well, things seem to have gone very quiet around here, so I thought I'd try to breath some life into it with the newest of White Wolf's games...

Having read through the demo of H:tV, I must say, this game is much more what I expect of Hunters that "people given supernatural gifts from God", which is what H:tR always showed itself to me. I'm actually really excited about this game, and have already pre-ordered my copy.

What do you guys think about it?

I've become somewhat disenchanted with White Wolf's latest offerings. My friends and I didn't have much fun playing Promethean (although I'm willing to give it another try eventually, maybe), and Changeling didn't impress me with its quick start game.

I know absolutely nothing about HtV, however, so I'm open to learning about it. That being said, my self-imposed rule is that I'm not purchasing any RPG books unless I'm guaranteed to play them, so I probably won't buy HtV any time soon.

Changeling didn't impress me with it's demo either, but I have never been disappointed by WW's nWoD stuff in the past, so I got it, and love it. It's very quickly become my favourite game.

Not knowing anything about nWoD, I don't have an opinion on HtV - but am curious what the differences are from HtR. What makes it more exciting?

Seconded. I read very little of HtR-related materials because the whole "humans imbued with supernatural powers" seemed hokey to me. I would rather play or run a game of normal humans fighting the unknown with few or no extra advantages. (Much like Call of Cthulhu, now that I think of it).

I.ve done some digging on HtV. It seems to function like the second site book, except added a more techological point of veiw with special abilities and manuevers. They also added a group feature that is apparent in the other templates. Vamp=Coven, Were=Pack, etc, etc.

Overall it's like aspects of mage with how groups are, except how they function, with special abilities that seem to be the same strength as those in second sight.

I feel it gives a nice little bonus to those that enjoy playing mortals character but don't want to be as powerful as the other supernaturals.

Hunters have a few things, they have Tactics(Which usually require 2-3 hunters to execute) Profession which covers what your hunter does in their hunting. Probably medic, soldier, demolitionists, etc... or something entirely different.

There's also something else you have to spend merit points on now, entitlements or something like that. They list one of them on the site, a sun bomb, which scares the crap out of vamps if they fail to make their roll.

All in all, it looks like they made hunters into somewhat of a resistance effort against the monsters of the night. (Think about the rebellion in star wars for something like that.) Hunters form cells, who if they survive might meet more cells, and form bigger and bigger groups.

I've never tried Promethian, but I'm playing Changeling, and it's better I believe then the OWoD. Paranoia is your friend. :)

So far I'm not hearing anything about HtV that sounds markedly different from HtR ...
This message was last edited by the user at 00:21, Tue 22 July 2008.

I agree, but the demo document made the world look antithetical to the paranoia I would have liked to see in the game. I don't like the fact that there are established hierarchies and "politics" among the Lost. I suppose it would be trivial to remove those elements, placing the characters in a role more akin to Prometheans (lost, confused, not sure if there are any others like them in the world)...

Well, it always depends on the GM. We play a campaign where we didn't know we were lost for a while, and now we're slowly re-discovering ourselves.

Plus we play high-school characters, so we can't exactly flee when the gentry decide to show their heads :)

As for the marked diff, I don't think there's any sort of conviction, so not much insanity(Very sad, I know) I can post a bit more in august when it ships to my house.

Stol... I mean recovered from White wolf's site.

"Endowments
Hunters are not supernatural creatures. They do not command the unholy powers of the night (although the case could be made for the Lucifuge), nor do they possess inborn resistance to injury or death. Around the world, the vast majority of hunters face the supernatural armed with little more than their wits, willpower, and whatever supplies they can gather from the local sporting goods store. Some hunters, though, by dint of powerful backers or stores of ancient relics or a supposed fallen angel in the family tree, have access to tools beyond those that ordinary men and women can acquire. Some would argue that these tools make them every bit as unnatural as the things they profess to hate—how much difference is there, really, between a witch who calls down lightning from the sky and a man who has implanted a swarm of insect monsters into his body to use as a weapon? Others counter that, to destroy the monsters that hide in the shadows with any chance of success, a hunter needs every edge he can get.

Endowments, unlike the powers of supernatural beings, are not their own category of Trait. They are simply a new category of Merit, and are purchased with Merit dots just like any other (see "Merits" on p. XX for the specifics of how each Endowment Merit works). Most Endowments have special rules governing their use, and safeguards in place to keep members of rival organizations from using them. These rules are discussed in detail at the beginning of each Endowment's description.

Endowments are weird. Endowments are monstrous and, in many ways, inhuman. Does this make those hunters who use them inhuman? “Humanity” here is in the eye of the beholder.

Sample Endowment
VDSB (•••)
Ever since Murnau's Nosferatu, the knowledge that vampires are destroyed by the light of the sun has entered the pop culture lexicon. While VALKYRIE's scientists have not yet found the key component of sunlight that causes such deleterious effects on the bloodsuckers, they have developed the next best thing.

Function:The VDSB (Victim-Detonated Sun Bomb) is an explosive device that is rigged to trigger via an infrared sensor and thermal imager; when an object with a core temperature of less than 94 degrees Fahrenheit breaks the infrared beam, the device is triggered. Instead of an explosion, the VDSB (which looks like a generic satchel charge but contains far more complex innards) uses a combination of full-spectrum phosphorescent lights and focusing mirrors to create a blinding flash which is, from an electromagnetic standpoint, identical to sunlight. While the light doesn't actually harm vampires, it can cause a surge of panic that overwhelms their rational mind and leads them to make tactical errors.

Arming the device is simple enough, necessitating success on an instant Wits + Crafts roll. However, unless operating in total darkness, the VDSB must also be concealed, necessitating six successes on a Wits + Crafts roll, with each roll representing 10 minutes worth of work. Disarming the bomb is more difficult, requiring six successes on a Wits + Crafts roll, with each roll representing one minute of work. Once the tampering process starts, though, the disarmer only has four minutes, or four rolls, in which to disarm the device. Once that time ticks down, the device detonates if it hasn’t been neutralized.

Against humans and monsters not afraid of sunlight, the VDSB is treated as an ordinary explosive. It has a “Damage” of 4, but damage is only rolled to determine whether or not the target is Stunned. Remember that to calculate an explosive's damage, you roll a number of dice equal to the Damage, in this case 4, and add the successes to the base Damage rating (see The World of Darkness Rulebook, p. 178). Blind characters and creatures without eyes are unaffected.

When a vampire or other creature vulnerable to bright light is caught within the area of a VDSB, the effects are far more pronounced. The vampire's player must immediately make an extended Resolve + Composure roll, with each roll representing one turn. Each turn in which the vampire's player rolls at least one success, he maintains his composure for one further turn. If at any time the vampire fails to gain any successes on a roll, he flies into a frenzy of fear in which his only objective is to flee from the source of the light. He will attack anyone that gets in his way, but otherwise just tries to get away. If the vampire accumulates five successes on the extended roll, he shakes off the flight instinct and can act normally. "

Also, you risk willpower rather then conviction now. You can either get the three dice bonus, make the roll 9-again, or make it count as an exceptional success on three, instead of five. If the hunter succeeds, he gets that point of WP back, and another one. However, he can't go beyond the max.

If this power is a showcase, I dread seeing the rest.

Apparently this is just one of the Endowments from one of the more techno-savvy Hunter Conspiricies. Most of the rest are more occultesque, according to the designers.

So... endowments are external devices and/or spells rather than innate abilities?

Are they basically just like normal mortals except they belong to some powerful secret societies?

Seems so. I'll be getting it in two weeks, so I can get a much better idea.

Yea Nerwen, that's pretty much it. The game also seems to be less based on righteous hunters killing stuff with powers from God, and more to do with fighting/learning about/trying to redem the monsters, and not becoming corrupt and just like what you hunt in the process.

I did a skimming read through of HtV and to tell you guys the truth, it is more born with the powers then given them like in HtR, personally HtR is better mostly because it gives more realistic feeling to it and not so high tech like HtV, if you ask me it is too high tech feeling and less realistic. HtR was more drama based then HtV is. So naturally I'm sticking with HtR myself, mostly because of how real the world of HtR actually is compaired to how tech advanced HtV is.

My two cents

Would anyone run (either) Hunter?

Well, my pre-ordered copy should hopefully be arriving from Leisure Games on thursday or friday, so once I've had a look through it, I might be up for running a game.

So, now that the game is released, what do people think?

I bought the book today. Haven't read much yet. But after reading just a few pages in the store, I already felt a character forming. Which is very odd since I have actually pondered quitting roleplaying due to lack of inspiration.

Hopefully I feel the same after reading all of it ;).

Hi guys, some of you might remember me, and I don't talk a lot but I feel I need to comment here. First, the old world. I find with increasing regularity that everything in the old world of darkness was done poorly. It was a cheesy setting where cheese won and creativity was crushed. Whether your individual gaming group was great or not doesn't have a bearing when the games themselves did not function. They just didn't. They were bad games that sold more on being rebellious and looking cool than they ever did on quality because, at the time, they weren't D&D. If you take this into account, Hunter The Reckoning also is a bad game in a line of bad games. Why do angels and divine powers have to imbue humans with supernatural power? Why do humans need supernatural powers that are innate at all? It's fundamentally redundant to have a human that just 'has powers'. Having powers makes that human not human. The best example of this is Blade the vampire hunter or his 1970's progenitor Captain Kronos from Hammer films. Touched by supernatural forces and enhanced mystically by the exposure they fundamentally cease to be human no matter what prefered philosophy they like to use to explain away their differences. These themes of unrealistic acceptance and superhuman power appear again and again because people like to think that people with power, specifically them if they were the lucky party, would do good things with it. It makes them comfortable to think that powerful people have their best interests at heart. What it isn't, in that social scheme, is Darkness. Its a world of migrane headaches and toothaches, not darkness.

In the new world the best metaphor that can be used draws on classical and rennisance themes of light and shadow. Humans exist in a showy world where a single pillar of light provides the illusion of safety. Some of these humans are touched by the dark but never leave the light, becoming Thaumaturges and Psychics (Second Sight). They aren't human anymore, but not knowing what they are they fumble about half blind. Some give in to temptation and fear and become the darkness itself (Vampires). As part of that in the shadows which they feared, they have nothing to fear anymore and exalt in the power. Some become so enraged at the threat of the darkness they transcend, becoming something more, but in doing so violate their own humanity (Werewolf), and so must commit themselves to a balancing act in order to remain thetical to their beliefs; a balancing act most fail. Some realize there is a light, and all its wondrous properties, and become part of that light making the world a greater place. (Mage) But once changed, they must wrestle with arrogance. Some go to close to the light, become burned, become maimed, and fall back to earth as broken but beautiful things. (Changeling) Still others were never part of the light to begin with and do not hide like the other darkness. They are unnatural bridges of light and shadow that everything rises up in revolt against. (Promethean) And then there are the torch-bearers. This is the crux of Hunter: The Vigil and the new world. Hunters are those humans who take a very small amount of that light, less than a magi but are not tainted like others, and pick their way through the darkness looking for a way out. As one falls, another takes its place, relying on the knowledge that has come before and an iron resolve to do what is right not because they particularly care for their fellow man although some certainly do but because if not them; then who? Hunters are not chosen by god or any other entity, and they never should have been as they were in Reckoning. Even if a Hunter calls upon ritual and prayer and calls it god he shouldn't have proof. Hunters are as much victims of their knowledge as they are its forebearers staving off the darkness. Yes, they use science in an inexact way, but what else can you trust against dread supernatural? Yes, they have magic, but its all stolen by the blood and sweat of generations from the enemy. In a world so dark and so entropic as that, such people have nothing but faith and determination in themselves to carry them forward and that is a more powerful mix of thematic images than any deus ex machina.

Very well put. I agree.

RuneKnight, I couldn't disagree more.
Humans with powers isn't redundant, I think you might be looking at it the wrong way though. Sure it's fun to show how being 'gifted' makes you different, sets you apart and all, but at the same time try flipping it around. People with powers needn't be that different. Sure you might be able to do a hundred different things that defy comprehension but that doesn't stop you from relating to the human condition, doesn't remove all the urges, fears and issues humans have. You still got to pay the rent and raise your kids. You are still fundamentally human regardless of the powers you might have.

For me the imagery you use for the nWoD in your post holds just as well for the old World for the most part.
As for the hunters... In the new World they are maniacs, driven ever onwards by the insane realization of what the world really holds, using any tools are their disposal to fight perceived evils. They are fanatics fighting a desperate war.
In the old World they are maniacs, granted power against their wishes by forces beyond their comprehension and forced to see the world as it truly is. They use any tools are their disposal to fight percieved evils even as they struggle to understand what they have become and what they stand against. They will become fanatics, fighting a desperate war.

So hey, whatever, ain't so different.

I also take exception at RuneKnight's statement that "everything" in old World of Darkness was bad. There certainly were some parts of the old World of Darkness which were very good, otherwise there would be no way to explain why they rebranded them and published them with hardly any change (Vampire and Werewolf). And then there are parts of new World of Darkness which just disappear when compared to the original (Mage). Of course, had old World of Darkness been all good they wouldn't have axed it like they did. Personally, I have a feeling that ever since Mage (in 1993) White Wolf have been trying to create an ultimate indie game (even before the term indie existed in context of roleplaying) and occasionally they've been a bit overzealous. Nowhere is that more apparent than in in Wraith.

Hunter: the Reckoning has always had its share of shortcomings and it has never been considered one of the best WW had to offer. I guess it's a part of reason why the new version is so good. After all (unlike Vampire or Mage) they had space for some creative thinking. Now I didn't have time to read the Vigil from cover to cover, but what I've seen I truly like. But calling old WoD bad on account of one good game from nWoD simply makes no sense to me.

Actually, not to be misconstrued here, I am not saying the totality of the Old World was bad based on the quality of a single new game, I was attempting to remain topical in the sense that this thread is about The Vigil. In the broader sense, with the possible exception of Promethean, I have found each offering of the nWoD to be top quality light years beyond its former incarnations and eagerly await Geist next year.

And I strongly disagree with this statement regardless of reasons for it, even for Hunter. HtV may be better than the original, but it's the only new WoD game that is better than the old one.

And on what do you base that hypothesis?

It is not a hypothesis, but a personal opinion. And it is based as I said on the facts (I believe these are facts, not individual impressions) that Vampire and Werewolf are almost identical to the originals and that new Mage is hardly worth mentioning.

Personally I think the new Mage is 100% better than the old one, but that's just my opinion. I agree with Runeknight, nWoD has far outshone oWoD in my eyes.

Better? Worse? Or Just different?

I think the third option is better. oWoD hunters were people blessed by powers that just happened to them, and let them fight the things that go bump in the night. Using them more and more continued to drive them down a quick road to a rubber room.

However, what if you wanted to play a hunter that relied on weaponry and intelligence rather then some kind of mystical powers? What if you wanted to devise new and exciting ways to defeat your enemies? There weren't too many rules in oWoD for that. Sure, you could play as a normal human with weapons, but fighting a supernatural creature with no nifty gadgets and the like was akin to taking on the national guard with a BB gun.

The nWoD hunters seem to focus on things that players didn't think about. Who can you trust when the chips are down? who can you go to for help if you're hurt? What are you doing when you're not trying to destroy some slavering beasty?

With the additions of Compacts and conspiracies, hunters have more help to turn to. Endowments can either be mystical in nature, or technological. Your character actually has a profession, which has benefits and drawbacks(You can't go venturing off to new cities without setting up some kind of employment or the like :) )

that's just my 2 Cents about hunter anyway. As for some of the other games, I read the oWoD changeling game once, seemed a little hokey, especially when you wanted to invoke your contracts. "Wait, I have to turn around 5 times, then hurl myself off a building so I can fly?" The nWoD Changeling has a more darker tone, people just trying to survive the madness that is overtaking them, trying to remain free despite these powerful beings who want to get them back.

But again, it's just my opinion :)

I don't dislike old Hunter inherently. But my idea of a supernatural hunter has always been a normal (or somewhat normal) person, who may have picked up some tricks but isn't head and shoulders above the rest in anything but knowing that the shadows exist. Old Hunter wasn't good because old "Mortal" wasn't good (it was assumed that you were a supernatural, and if you weren't you were totally uncool). But in the new World of Darkness, humans don't inherently suck. The first book released was the core, with everything needed to play a normal person, and supernaturals are created after applying templates to humans. New Hunter is good for the same reason Second Sight is good: it adds depth to a subpopulation of most of the people living in the World of Darkness. With the exception of Endowments, every new thing in Hunter is freely applicable outside the game. Hunter material works just fine with other lesser templates, which is one of the toolbox aspects that appeals to me (I can't wait until I get to play my Cheiron biokineticist).

Also, the given organizations really appeal to me. I wouldn't get along with some of them, but just from reading the core book, I find every one of them a bit compelling (as opposed to some of the other games' organizations, like the Invictus, which I didn't find all that interesting). Ashwood Abbey is deliciously deranged. The Malleus Maleficarum is brilliantly dogmatic and perfectly embodies Christian mystic paranoia. The Cheiron Group appeals to my inner mad scientist. Null Mysteriis amuses me, especially since I know people like that in real life. And organizations are novel, because there are a lot of them and they're all voluntary.

So far, my favorite game has been Mortal+ (that is, humans with crazy stuff). Hunter fits into that, so I like it too.

My favorite thing about the new H:tV is how toolbox just about everything is. The H:tR "main" villains, the rots, were pretty Hunter specific, but they give you a decent system to create antagonists for any game, from demons to prometheans to changelings without having to actually buy their books and learn their rules. They give you a huge list of generic supernatural powers, and then each specific path gives a few add-ons. It's nice.

I also like how not every antagonist is supernatural. Serial Killers and Cults make their way into the mix as well, which is also pretty neat. The focus is less on supernatural and more on people protecting their homes.

Serial Killers and Cults were the focus of ANTAGONISTS and expanded upon somewhat by SECOND SIGHT. I'm regularly offended how people in my local game will ignore core nWOD accessories in favor of only focusing on Venue specific antagonists and content, so yes, I also love the toolbox.

I apologize, I don't have enough resources to buy every accessory, so I've never gotten a chance to look through antagonists except briefly.

I wasn't accusing you if that's what it sounded like, just commenting on my local group. :D

If anybody reading this is wondering whether or not to invest in Witch Finders, do it. It's brilliant. It includes loads of information about hunting witches and even has its own magic system. And yes, at this point it might seem like White Wolf is releasing magic systems left and right, but honestly Gutter Magic fits a nice niche. Second Sight is full of safe, cheap rituals, with the problem of having to take time. Gutter Magic costs more to obtain and cast, but it doesn't take forever unless you're making it into a ritual. It's also fairly safe unless you're doing big magic (when Paradox starts applying; this may or may not be the same Paradox as in Mage). Awakened magic is ultimately powerful, ultimately flexible, and universally risky. So the magic systems aren't that over done. Each other splat (and some hunter conspiracies) has their own magic system, of course, which fits in somewhere along the line in terms of flexibility and power.

This message was deleted by a forum moderator, as it was a double post, at 18:46, Fri 19 Sept 2008.

The upside to all these different systems is that the players won't know what to expect. Is the ST using real powers? hunter system powers? his own home brew?

You just have to wait for the spell to be cast :D