I have the DtF books but haven't ever really gotten into a game centered around just Demon the Fallen characters.  Still I wanted to ask a few questions and get some honest feedback about the game in general.

For those that like this setting:

What intrigues you about it?
What do you look for in a game?
What/who are the best antagonists?
Do you like crossover games that involve DtF?  If so why?

For those that don't like it:

What don't you like about the game?
Would you ever consider playing with the right ST and storyline?


Just a few questions to get the populace's general feelings towards this game.  I'll leave my personal feelings out of this thread for now as I want honest opinions and not comments on my own opinions.  Thanks for your time!

What intrigues you about it? The story behind it all.

What do you look for in a game? Character development and plot. I like to see my characters change and grow (emotionally) during the course of a game.

What/who are the best antagonists? This question has no real answer. It depends wholly on the story behind the game and all those involved.

Do you like crossover games that involve DtF? Out of all the oWoD games I have played, none have had DtF involved in the mix. Thus, I can't really say if I'd like one or not. I'd give an opinion on crossover games in general, but eh, that isn't what you asked, now is it?

Ok, I admit… I’m bias to DtF since I have loved the game from the moment I got it in my hands and stated to read it. There having said that I will begin with your questions.

What intrigues you about it?
Demon for me is about two things, forgiveness and not knowing when to quit. To me it is not like anything other that White Wolf has released as we are talking about ancient creatures that had universe in the palm of their hands that suddenly are turned into humans. This conflict that exists between the human host, his and her surroundings and the memories of that were is to me the core. The conflict between the angel and the demon within the character is to me just adds an extra flavour to it.

Then it is very versatile; you can do pretty much everything with it. You can go out hunting Lucifer, you can try claim your own empire, you can choose not to be a demon, you can try to destroy the world, etc, etc. The game is built in such a way that only the player’s own wishes (and of course what the ST wants to play) set the limits, and if you compare that to game like Vampire, Werewolf or Mage… well you can’t compare them at all as those games have a rather set gameplan. Vampire for instance isn’t made for you to create an own vampire kingdom for instance (the elders would squat you like a fly if you tried).

Another thing is the innocence of the game. Here you are a “newborn” demon with all these memories of the past, with powers that soon to be yours again, in a world you hardly understand or can even grasp. Suddenly creatures that wasn’t around last time you were free is roaming around making the Earth their playground, creatures that surely not was the Creators plan, creatures that must be dealt with if you are to survive in the new Eden.

What do you look for in a game?
Me I look for sorrow, anguish and despair. Very much the same as I would in a Wraith game. I want the conflicts of Old and New, the conflicts between those that have and those that want to have. I want the fight for Faith, the fight against the constant threat of loosing yourself in your torment (which I normally try to stay out of).

What/who are the best antagonists?
The Earthbounds, no question about it, and of course the Hunters… both the totally mortal ones and the Imbued (but more of those later). If you are a demon that shows yourself too much Demonhunters and others will come after you. So will the vampires, mages and werewolves…

Do you like crossover games that involve DtF?
When I play Demon I always use its rules first. If something is written in the book, that rules out all other. A typical example is Lore of Death 2, which can destroy a dead body fairly easy. A vampire player would scream bloody murder here that such ability is not fair, but then… if you are playing in a Demon game, life isn’t fair is it?

Demons doesn’t mix well with others, they are usually manipulative bastards that are only in it for the rebirth of themselves. Only a reconciler (as I see it) would be able to work with other supernaturals in a more permanent basis without being forced to invent very corny stories. I never uses crossover games, sure you can play a mage in one of my Demon game (I believed I had hunters and vampires in the game I ran here on Rpol) but if you did, that would be a mage in a Demon game…

Mostly I user crossover on NPCs, Hunters mostly as HtR is very close to DtF (they have an entire sourcebook about that) and I view the Hunters as the Heralds way of fighting the demons that has escaped… Heaven is still doing what the Creator said; don’t show yourself for the mortals.

The parts I like the most are the Beginning and the Fall (as told in the story with Matthew and Gaviel/Noah), and the Shattering and the Abyss (p.57-58). Everything in between? To me it's just a blur of "then a bunch of other stuff happened." I'm not really interested in all the factions, as that feels like political overkill to me (and I've said before that I'm not really a fan of politics (except in certain specific games that have done them well)).


Getting into specifics for actual roleplaying, what I'd want is an exploration of what it means to be human, after having first been an eternal being. With the idea that the PCs are brand new after having just come out of the Abyss and aren't completely used to being in a human skin yet. I liked the first part of the story of Magdiel/Anila.

What I don't want is something set in either Las Vegas or LA. Just about every DtF game I've seen on RPoL has been set in one of those two places, and those places just don't convey to me the kind of flavor I'd like to roleplay in. There would have to be a huge compensating reason for me to consider a game set there (e.g. Glitters because ... well, it's Glitters ;) ).


The Earthbound can be pretty intriguing. ;) But I don't think they necessarily need to be the only bad guys available. I concur with KB on that front.


I don't know how I feel about crossovers involving Demons in particular. I've never really played Demon, unless you count using some DtF elements in a game I run *cough*, and one extremely short-lived game a couple years back that lasted just long enough for everyone to write a single post.


We have a thread for that too! :D Crossover games - Like em or hate em?


Actually I'm in a VtM where all the elders are dead, neither the Camarilla nor Sabbat exist, the world is the PC vampires' oyster, and it has nothing to do with the standard courtly politics. So yes, it is possible to be limitless with the other games too, if you're willing to ditch canon and think outside the box.

Indeed Nerwen, that world is our oyster, our mage-made oyster...if we're thinking the same game...

Now my own D:tF experience, what I can say I enjoyed about it, though, was really the powermongering. *sigh* My ST just got the book and was looking to test the system. So I made a guy, playe dhim out,t hen we started working the "Torment" system. Our settign was WWII france, the allies just landed on Normandy and are advancing. I'm a demon possessed old farmer and I'm in the middle of a german retreat as I wake up. So I have to fight Nazis.

Then I decide to be all demonic and kill things. well, aparently I rolled bad enough to start inducing high-torment effects. So I ask, what's the torment thing mena?

Example, I had wings and I'm flying around tearing nazis when I score high torment on my flight roll. Apparently I created "gravity wells" that caused bullets to stop in mid air heading towards me and such. So I asked, "and what's bad about high torment?" and my ST goes, "Well...you make gravity wells." So I ask, "That it?" He says, "eayh", and I ask, "Okay, can I just go into high torment then without the roll, you know, like aminimum failure?" And he says, " I suppose"

So that' smy intro to demon. You have omega powers that really don't adversely affect you when you roll badly to activate them. Well some do...like leashing the poor soul of a man to my will and then turning his ghost into a violent killer shade bent on destroying me...

High torment is something that is mostly a role play thing, you get urges that you can't control;

A guy insults you and without even thinking about it you lit him on fire and let him scream as he slowly burns up. Why? Well why not?

The downside is that your torment gets into the way of your Lores, using the normal powers gets harder and harder and I tell you when you accidentually kill your thrall when you meant to heal him... well it is rather upseting.

Umm... mages? Either I need to reread some of the threads I'm not in, or we're talking about different oysters. Are you playing Seraphine perchance?

Nice Demon story. :) I hope you did eventually get straightened out on the downsides of Torment...

Different oysters...mine is called city of decay

As for getting staightened out for torment, yeah, I knew I couldn't use the benign version of my powers anymore...but they were nazis, who needs benign when you're playing nazis?

So, that's kind of it. no real reaon for me to be nice.
This message was last edited by the user at 14:50, Thu 31 May 2007.

What intrigues you about it?

The setting is so thoroughly enmeshed in well-known mythologies that it's familiar--but alien.  Of all the games, I think DtF has the most tragic and well-researched backstory.  I also like the fact that it is nothing like any of the other WoD games.  It isn't all, "OHEMGEE!  SAVE TEH WURLD!  Or kill things!  Or...something!"  WtA always seemd to have angsty, do-good characters.  The minor twists between Tribes and such didn't really change the fact that all the wolves are basically the same.  Vampire is a bunch of angsty parasites who either love and embrace the darkness, or fight it.  Mage is a bunch of guys who....

Well, you get it.  I like the other games, but DtF seems to have far more in the way of character archetype differences.  Each House is very, very different, then you add in Paths and Torment level creating drastically divergent groups.

What do you look for in a game?

A solid plot with highly integrated characters.  There just has to be some sort of chemistry between the PCs, otherwise it gets dull.  I also enjoy a lot of the intrigue or social plotting.  It's trite, but applicable: I like role-playing, not roll-playing.

As for DtF specifically, inner conflict is a must.  The entire game revolves around the salvation or degeneration of these ancient creatures.  Exploration of humanity, like Nerwen said, is up near the top of my list.  Whether the characters choose to fight to redeem themselves or give in to their Torment and such is irrelevant so long as the journey is good.

What/who are the best antagonists?

In DtF?  I'm not sure.  Never really got a good crack at playing it.  In general, though, fleshed-out, driven antagonists are best.  Those with a personal tie to the PCs (whether they know it or not) are also good.  Dime-a-dozen baddies get old, but one thoroughly formed enemy?  Now that's something to reckon with!

Do you like crossover games that involve DtF?  If so why?

Never played one, but I can see them integrating well with some other WoD.  Hunter, for instance, or Mage especially.  I can't really see a WtA/DtF crossover, though.  Just nothing compatible between the two in my mind.  Oddly, though, I've never really seen a straight DtF game work.  The Fallen just don't get along that well, and really have no need for each other.  So I guess, to one extent, I prefer crossovers to "straight" games.

Heh. The irony thickens. I know for a fact that johanfk is also in that game. The one I'm talking about is a different one, though - which means there's at least two of them, which just goes to bolster my original point. :)

I'll agree with Zephyr that Demon has a very different feel to it than the other WoD games, with Hunter being closest. But I wouldn't say that the others are particularly more limited in what the characters are like or what they can do. Vampires we've covered with the oysters, above. ;) Werewolves have a whole other spirit world to do things in. Mages have the power to do literally anything they want (I'm really not seeing how these guys are a narrow range of archetypes at all). Wraiths are just like normal regular people (with the same range of archetypes) except they're dead. Changelings straddle two worlds and belong to neither, and if you ditch all the stuff about courtly intrigue you can do a lot of neat things with that basic premise.

Maybe it's just been bad players, then, but characters (not plots or potentials) always seem to boil down into one or two basic archetypes for each game.  This isn't necessarily a reflection of the game design, just perhaps of the folks who play it.  And it goes beyond, say, the Garou all having one goal.  That makes sense.  But the chars always seem to wind up pigeon-holed, which doesn't make sense in my mind.

Pro'ly just bad experience, heh.  I haven't played antyhing but the demos for nWoD since I joined (with the exception of a lovely VtM game or two that I didn't get a chance to get into).  As noted in your CC thread, Ner, I've been on HORRIBLE PbP/PBeM sites in the past.