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14:54, 28th March 2024 (GMT+0)

The Lounge III.

Posted by Mad MickFor group 0
Mad Mick
GM, 124 posts
Sat 15 Apr 2017
at 07:32
  • msg #1

The Lounge III

Time for a new one of these.  Use the Lounge to talk about anything that doesn't belong in any of the other threads.

Did anyone see the 2016 SJ Games Report to the Stakeholders?  Munchkin is doing well, but their GURPS output is hurting.

Here's the report:  http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/
Tortuga
player, 469 posts
Sat 15 Apr 2017
at 14:35
  • msg #2

The Lounge III

GURPS has been subsidized by Munchkin since Munchkin was released.
Jeffrywith1e
player, 10 posts
Sun 16 Apr 2017
at 23:23
  • msg #3

The Lounge III

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 1):

That's too bad. I thought the Dungeon Kickstarter was going to change all that.
KingHenryBlack
player, 4 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 04:51
  • msg #4

The Lounge III

   Sad, indeed. Seems like you might as well rename "Stave Jackson Games" to "Munchkin, Inc."

   Looked into the whole thing, wasn't really impressed with it. Looks like I'll have to look online and raid the FLGS when they've got something.
Tortuga
player, 470 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 13:09
  • msg #5

The Lounge III

It's like Hasbrow bought WotC for Magic and got DnD along with the deal, so DnD's entire dev team is three guys working in a closet.
Johnny Angel
player, 92 posts
Wed 10 May 2017
at 07:31
  • msg #6

The Lounge III

I think the delay of Dungeon Fantasy was a painful misstep.



Also, despite the fact that I do enjoy Dungeon Fantasy (and I own virtually all of it), sometimes I ponder if it were a different direction than what a potentially larger fanbase may have desired.

I believe that dungeon fantasy (the genre; not the product) tropes are among the most popular.  However,I am uncertain if the Dungeon Fantasy power level and style was necessarily what was desired.  One of the

This is strictly my own opinion, but I base it upon what I see around me and how I've watched both D&D (and Pathfinder) evolve over the past few editions.  I also base it upon what the reasons were for me, as an individual, deciding to buy into GURPS.  While I love fantasy and "dungeon fantasy" tropes, themes, archetypes, and stories, a lot of the issues I've had with D&D were why I wanted to play a different system.

-I loved D&D 3rd Edition at the time I was playing it.  The amount of options and cool ideas was awesome.  Unfortunately, not all of the options which looked cool on paper were actually cool in actual play because of flaws in the rules.  The power curve between levels was often too sharp, and the difference of one or two levels could be drastic.  In theory, I could do things like build a castle, have followers, or be a knight on a horse, but the reality of how the game worked turned actually attempting to do those things into nonsense; any castle I'd build or army I would lead would be virtually worthless against any of the threats I'd face as a higher-level character.  High levels too often turned into what I've seen other people call "rocket tag" - meaning that fights turned into a race to see which side could land a "save or die/suck" spell or an epic attack. Don't get me wrong, I still had a lot of years of fun with the game, but there were things I wanted to do -both as a player and a world builder- which I did not feel worked well with the system.

-I had a love/hate relationship with D&D 4th Edition.  Some of the changes from 3rd to 4th were things I thought were awesome.  The lessened power curve between levels was nice; it meant that -as a DM- the party gaining a level or two didn't necessarily mean that I had to re-write my entire campaign.  I also (to the dismay of many others) actually really liked the lore and cosmology of 4th Edition; it felt epic and mythological.  The whole "points of light" from the preview books was cool.  However, it was my experience that "points of light" as an idea did not really make sense in the context of 4E rules; the game very quickly started to feel more like a super-hero game wearing a fantasy disguise.  While the individual characters were closer in power to each other than their 3rd Edition counterparts, the enemies and monsters often failed miserably to provide a challenge which lived up to what the fluff claimed.  While later books started to fix this, the edition was already starting to draw to a close.  Even had it been fixed, some parts of the rules still clashed with the style of game I wanted to play and run.  There came a point when I felt as though my 4th Edition characters were essentially immune to the world around them.  I eventually came to enjoy 4th Edition, but I came to enjoy it because -at this point- I had started to play GURPS and accepted that the two systems were meant for different styles of play.

-I bought GURPS 4th Edition after looking through the books at a local gaming store.  I liked that it had the possibility of options like D&D 3rd Edition, but I could also enjoy the lessened power curve between levels that D&D 4th had because GURPS had no levels at all.  Even in a fantasy game with crazy powers and monsters, I could still build a world in which things made sense to me.  The "high level" GURPS fighter might very well be able to fight several guys at a time, but he still wasn't fighting entire armies by himself (unless that's the type of game I wanted).  As a player-character, investing in allies and property made sense because those things weren't so easily outpaced by number inflation.  The easiest example is the classic trope of a knight on horseback.  In D&D 3rd Edition, having a horse turned into a liability because basically anything I'd be fighting with a high level character could likely kill my horse even with an ability which my horse saved against and took half-damage from.  In 4th, the game was built in such a way that my character should trade my horse in for something else as levels progressed.

I'm starting to ramble; I apologize.

What I'm getting at is that I think Dungeon Fantasy sometimes tries too hard to mimic other game systems.  While I see the value of that, I also think that GURPS has some advantages over those systems which start to get lost with DF.  There comes a point when it starts to feel a little like the D&D 3e "rocket tag" again; monsters and PCs are trying to land a killing blow.  Either an attack does nothing or it does everything.  The other issue I've found is that there comes a point when it's difficult to have the world still make sense.  If I'm wearing uber-magical-armor that no weapon can penetrate, do I care that the local town guard doesn't like what I'm doing?

I think the general concept of DF is fantastic, but I think a more grounded approach, an approach which used the strengths of GURPS as a system to world-build a setting which "makes sense," would have been a better approach.  You could still have templates for the various jobs and races and monsters just like you do now, but build all of those things as part of a world instead of building them as a set of things which levels-up beyond what the baseline world can ever hope to touch.  By all means, have epic heroes fighting multiple foes at a time and being head and shoulders above the common man, but find a way for them to still feel as though they are attached to the world in which they live.

I look at what D&D 5th Edition turned into, and I feel as though my view isn't so crazy.  There are many aspects of it which I do not enjoy, but I think the basic mentality behind the early design of it is at least in a similar ballpark to what I'm talking about.  (Some of the newer products are breaking from the mold and it's starting to feel as though some old problems are creeping back into the product, but that's a different conversation.)

My point is that I think GURPS should have embraced what makes it different and used the strengths inherent in the system rather than trying so hard to mimic how other games worked.  Yes, have the DF tropes, character types, monsters, and everything else, but ground it all in the aspects of GURPS which influenced me to buy GURPS.
Johnny Angel
player, 93 posts
Wed 10 May 2017
at 08:20
  • msg #7

The Lounge III



I'll add to my previous statement that I do not know what the final product of Dungeon Fantasy looks like yet.  So it could be something with a significantly different tone than what I've seen up to this point.
trooper6
player, 98 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 05:22
  • msg #8

The Lounge III

I think the issue is this: You may like something different than DF. (And believe me, I really, really like things different than DF). But DF outsells the other GURPS products. Back when e23 had best selling lists, DF always topped the lists, but a LOT more than the other GURPS releases.

I find it depressing since that is not the style of play I prefer and not what I think is so great about GURPS, but it seems as if there are a lot of buyers who do want exactly that...so it makes sense that is what they'd aim for. Maybe if DF does really well they can then throw some bones to those of us who like other styles.
Johnny Angel
player, 94 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 22:11
  • msg #9

The Lounge III

I actually do like DR.

Though, I'd prefer something similar to DR, but a few notches more "real" (for a lack of better words).

I suppose what I'm clumsily trying to say is that I'd like DF ideas, but without the number inflation.  Somewhere between what Banestorm is and what DF is is a sweet spot that suits me best.   I don't know how to express it though.
Johnny Angel
player, 95 posts
Thu 25 May 2017
at 00:47
  • msg #10

The Lounge III

I don't see the beetle-people from DF used very often.

Have you had players choose them in your games?

As a GM, do you have a place for them in your worlds?
evileeyore
player, 1 post
Mon 18 Sep 2017
at 23:12
  • msg #11

Re: The Lounge III

Johnny Angel:
I don't see the beetle-people from DF used very often.

Have you had players choose them in your games?

As a GM, do you have a place for them in your worlds?

The Coleopterans aren't in the DFRPG... so that's something.  I did see them in the occasional online game, usually as a 'gimmick' character; ie the four-sword Swashbuckler, or double shield wielding sword and mace fighter.

Never saw them in any game I ran.
Johnny Angel
player, 96 posts
Tue 19 Sep 2017
at 06:09
  • msg #12

Re: The Lounge III

evileeyore:
Johnny Angel:
I don't see the beetle-people from DF used very often.

Have you had players choose them in your games?

As a GM, do you have a place for them in your worlds?

The Coleopterans aren't in the DFRPG... so that's something.  I did see them in the occasional online game, usually as a 'gimmick' character; ie the four-sword Swashbuckler, or double shield wielding sword and mace fighter.

Never saw them in any game I ran.



I created one as a NPC in a DF game I ran.  The party was looking to hire a few people to round out the party, and I randomly rolled for race/profession to create a few.

Surprisingly, that NPC became one of the more popular characters from the campaign.  He fought with a polearm in one set of hands and bow & arrow in the other set of hands.

I've toyed with the idea of a Coleopteran martial-artist a few times, but it's hard to squeeze in the point cost of playing one.
JustJessie23
player, 8 posts
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 07:30
  • msg #13

Re: The Lounge III

I had a Coleopteran Swashbuckler in my DF game.  She was around for six years.  Enough XP to have four attacks, four fine sabers, and a pretty decent skill plus Luck.

She was a pretty impressive character right up until the end.
Lord_Johnny
player, 1 post
Thu 19 Oct 2017
at 11:56
  • msg #14

Re: The Lounge III

*steps in and waves hello*

New player to GURPS and such. Hello all.
Magic Mushroomcloud
player, 36 posts
Thu 19 Oct 2017
at 15:15
  • msg #15

Re: The Lounge III

Welcome to the show, Johnny.
Lord_Johnny
player, 2 posts
Thu 19 Oct 2017
at 21:01
  • msg #16

Re: The Lounge III

Hell mushroom!
BlueDwarf
player, 78 posts
Thu 19 Oct 2017
at 22:16
  • msg #17

Re: The Lounge III

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 16):

Hey Johnny. What games pique your interest?
Lord_Johnny
player, 3 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 02:22
  • msg #18

Re: The Lounge III

Well...a lot, to be honest. I'm not quite sure if you meant which system setting you mwant, or just GURPS related. I have to be honest, I don't have any of the books yet (mostly a matter of timing to be honest),  but I like everything from medieval settings to sci-Fi to economic games to super villan games. (I say villan because how often I play the NG good character type which is what I am closest to in RL).
BlueDwarf
player, 79 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 02:44
  • msg #19

Re: The Lounge III

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 18):

Oh OK. There are a number of games running that are suitable for newbies, who can help you even without the books. Northport is a good one for dungeon fantasy, and I run a couple for modern/future settings (One in the Traveller universe, one in modern day Shadowrun and one Post-Apoc.). Then there are a few others I am in that also want new players, but if you type in GURPs as the system into the search engine, you will get a few.

Most games seem pretty quiet at the moment as folk are busy in RL, and this will probably stay that way until after January, based on history. That means it would probably be a good time to take your time and get set up, perhaps with a small solo-adventure for you to get the hang of the system, for whatever game interest you.
Lord_Johnny
player, 4 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 13:54
  • msg #20

Re: The Lounge III

*nods sagely as he heeds the wisdom* Do you know anyone who'd be willing to do a solo adventure?
Mad Mick
GM, 129 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 14:03
  • msg #21

Re: The Lounge III

Depends.  =)  I'd be happy to run a quick one-shot for you if you like.  What are you looking for?
JustJessie23
player, 14 posts
GURPS GM and Player
<LEFT BLANK>
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 14:34
  • msg #22

Re: The Lounge III

Mad Mick:
Depends.  =)  I'd be happy to run a quick one-shot for you if you like.  What are you looking for?


I'd volunteer to play in that, but then it wouldn't be a solo adventure, would it?
Lord_Johnny
player, 5 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 15:28
  • msg #23

Re: The Lounge III

In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 21):

Don't care really. Kind of have a villain in my head at the moment. Wants to do a bit of the taking over the world idea. He'd still be in the "knocking up the local gas station" level of stuff. Or maybe some action in space, or anything else. I'm not too picky.
Aethulred
player, 96 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 16:28
  • msg #24

Re: The Lounge III

GURPS Lite is free online... just do a search. It gives you the basics of the system.
Lord_Johnny
player, 6 posts
Fri 20 Oct 2017
at 18:36
  • msg #25

Re: The Lounge III

Yeah, Apparently I already have Gurps Lite, and Ultra Tech and "Complete skills alphabetical".
BlueDwarf
player, 80 posts
Sat 21 Oct 2017
at 00:19
  • msg #26

Re: The Lounge III

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 25):

If you wanted I could do a solo adventure in one of the existing games as a prelude for your character. Or Mad Mick can do one for you, as he mentioned. Or perhaps a not-so-solo one!
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