We sure like to talk don't we. A new tread how exciting. Oh yes.

firstest post!

Yay!

*sigh* What did I start here...


Once again, let's start from the top.

Correction: non-Christians no longer honor Saint Valentine's beheading.  Christians still do.  Just for the heck of it, I'd tell you his story, cuz it's a really cool story, but I don't have time.  If you know the story, you know how people got the love, mushy cards, chocolate, and 'be my valentine' stuff out of it.

As for the buttload of holidays in December, you're right.  There are a lot.  Most of them saints' days, actually.  If you want to push that point further, then why not just say 'Happy Winter', for goodness' sake!

I'm not gonna get into that other thing you mentioned, as I'd not know completely what I'm talking about.  Plus, two could go on for days on that subject...


Oh?  Why say you that?  God should have first place in everything.  Including schoolwork.

And if they're not gonna follow that, they should at least not teach that rubbish scientists who wanted to prove us wrong made up called evolution.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:35, Fri 07 Dec 2007.

Unsupported claims alert, though that seems to be the mainstay of the creationist movement.

This is a touchy subject, so I think I will leave my immaturity at that.

Evolution was not made to discredit christianity and religion, Charle Darwin was a very christian person, he set out expecting to find proof of a literal interpretation of the bible, but found, through logical speculation, otherwise.

What exactly do you object to about evolution?

A religion and evolution discussion. :)

I'm just going to be a bystander for this one as someone always manages to get angry during these things.


Just a side question before I bow out: Is the "God made Evolution" a commonly held belief or is that just me and a few of my friends?

By "God made Evolution" I mean the following:
Everything science says about evolution is correct and the "Big Bang" was simply God (or other Super Being) making it happen.

I was never taught this, and quite frankly am rather unsure where I picked it up or if I just came up with it.

I'm just going to stick my head in and say a few things. For one, keep this discussion polite and reasonable, you know the drill.

Speaking as a scientist, I've seen some pretty amazing concepts that hold life and the universe together. The slow, incremental evolution of life from the simplest forms to ourselves, the self-organizational properties of many systems, the structure of matter, atoms and subatomic particles, the cosmic dance of stars and planets and galaxies, to the birth of the universe itself. All these things arise from the simplest, most basic physical laws, coming together in the most astoundingly elegant ways. It truly is beautiful.

So if I did choose to believe in a creating entity - a god or something else - behind all this, then it would be abundantly clear to me that all these physical laws are the very tools that that god used to put the universe together. And by knowing and understanding these tools, one can get closer to that god and understand it and it's creation better.

A far more wondrous god to me is one who can create all that we see and know with  just the simplest of physical laws, one who can set off a Big Bang and sit back and let all of existence unfold on its own, rather than one who is endlessly micromanaging his own creation.

Because that would be a flawed creation. Intelligent Design implies that the god did something wrong, and had to interfere. If that god is truly omniscient and omnipotent and perfect, then the creation would not be flawed, there'd be need to micromanage, life and the universe would not need fixing and adjusting. An omnipotent, omniscient and perfect god would create evolution, just as we see it.

And the god meant us to see it. This god has allowed us to evolve from the simplest of lifeforms through an incredibly long period of time, through a vast range of circumstances, each one imparting us with a new feature. We have evolved to become intelligent, free-thinking beings, full of curiousity and the need to explore and understand. We can do no less than to understand this world around us.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:06, Sat 08 Dec 2007.

Well I'm not a believer and I'm sure going to hell if there is one. Now with that said I do believe in evolution. It seems the logical thing. Now the problem I see with religion is that to many misuse the religion. Like the pope did for many years . Like when the Crusade started. Also The way Islam is misused today by the so called believers like Osama Bin Laden and his group of terrorists. Now the problem with religion in school is that it's learned to children that God exists. And tat s if there parents believes in it or not. And children are easy to make believe. Also many children would have the idea that. Hey my teachers say that god exist and created me. Why would they lie. After all they are here to teach me.

Look at the hatred and misunderstandings that exists because countries force things into schools. Like some anti west countries learn children that the west is evil and only tries to control the land. Children are easy to manipulate and also easy to misunderstand things.  therefor I think that religion has no place in state or school.

Also on another note. I have one things to say.,

1. Many who say that they are religious is the way I have seen it by my own experience is not real believers. Just people who do it just because it's tradition or "just to be on the safe side"

Growing up in a Christian family in the 80s/90s, we were told that both Heavy Metal and Dungeons and Dragons were Satanic.

Well hope that is wrong. If it's not then I'm surely going to hell.

I must say that I have read the satanic bible. It contradict itself often. Like You shall not make human sacrifices, but if you are going do one anyway then it should be a powerful enemy. It was in other words full of crap.

Granted, I'm only a teacher and learning more and more about science is only a hobby of mine, but I find that more and more science and archeological proof is found to support God and Jesus.  Nowhere in the Bible, a document full of prophesies that did and still continue to come true, does it say that evolution was not a part of this world.  I believe that it is.  I believe in survival of the fittest.  It makes sense, perfect sense to me that it is a very real part of our amazing world.

And Christianity in schools?  Why not in the USA where our very country was founded on it?  We sought freedom of religion to be sure, but every document, every slogan, every creed, every idea was based in Christianity.  The separation of church and state that we have is to ensure that the government will never enforce a religion or sanctions or whatnot on the citizens of this country, not to keep God out of our daily lives or force Christians to not be able to live with the same freedoms that non-Christians receive.

Children in this country are not ever forced to participate in any activity that is against their and/or their parent's religion.  Some (like Jehovah's Witnesses) do not even say our Pledge of Allegience to the flag or sing our national anthem or anything.  Students would not have to hear anything their parents didn't want them to.  But it isn't right to say that a Christian student can't pray if he or she doesn't want to.  One person's right to pray doesn't infringe on anybody's right to freedom of religion, but forcing a Christian to not pray if they want to does infringe on that person's right.  Why are non-Christians treated better than Christians and not exactly the same?

Anyway, my community is about 80% Christian, 19% agnostic or aetheist, and 1% Catholic.  So yep, I say "Merry Christmas," and am proud of it.  If somebody doesn't celebrate Christmas, then what harm did that really cause?  I celebrate Christmas, most everybody I know and loves celebrates Christmas.  I've spent 30 years saying that.  Why should I be forced to say something that I disagree with just to not step on somebody's toes?  Christmas, to me, is all about Christ.  To me, taking Christ out of Christmas by saying Happy Holidays is against everything I believe in for He is why I celebrate the season.  Making me and other Christians go against our beliefs is just as wrong, if not more so, than us accidentally saying Merry Christmas to somebody who doesn't celebrate Christmas.  Do any of us want to offend anybody else?  No, of course not.  But wouldn't we be hypocrites if we just went around saying Happy Holidays to appease complainers instead of proclaiming Christ by wishing Merry Christmas?  As far as I can see, that would be very, very wrong of me.

Thoughts?  Did I make any sense?  :p  Sorry, I'm still not really feeling all that well yet.  :p

I don't object to anyone praying quietly to themselves in school, and that is not prohibited. The preferred pastime during the moments of silence is prayer. Nor do I object to Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, some people just prefer the more PC version. Some people take PC too far, but not many. Most of the anger is over retailers afraid to mention christmas for fear of offending minority customers.

I do take offense that christians create this false sense of prosecution. There is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. By definition, an atheist/agnostic doesn't care about other's religions unless it is messing with their life. Christians have such a monumental majority in this country that it would be impossible to persecute them.

But it's mainly not the reasonable ones such as you that I take issue with.

I am amused that you don't include Catholics with Christians in your percentages, as they are certainly part of christianity. Perhaps you meant "Protestants" and "Pagan Scum". :P



PS: Here's a rather exausive explaination of the platorm for evolution:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

I would like to add a reason personally, science uses theories to explain things so that they can be used constructively, evolution theory has contributed greatly to our understanding of genetics. It is hard to believe that "Intelligent" Design would have possible uses, even if true, because we cannot reproduce it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:31, Sat 08 Dec 2007.

Actually, praying quietly in schools, student-led prayer or bringing your Bible is prohibited in some schools.  And far too often people are bringing more lawsuits to get it banned in more schools.

I do not know any Christians that "create this false sense of prosecution."  (I think you're meaning persecution?)  That I am all too often told that I should adapt my behaviors and speech to those who are not Christian, that I am not allowed to follow my faith because it's not politically correct, that I have actually been accosted and spit on, yes real slobber and everything, is not a false sense of anything.  By a lot of people, I am not treated the same way others are.  That's life.  It's not fair, but it's the way things are.  When some people find out I'm a Christian, they actually roll their eyes or start arguing with me when I've not said anything objectionable or start ignoring me or simply stop being friendly and getting to know me.  If that isn't at least mild persecution, I don't know what is.  I should get the same rights that everybody else does.  They get freedom of religion to believe whatever they want, say whatever they want, why don't I get the same thing?  I might not agree when somebody says that God doesn't exist.  I might try to discuss the issue with them, say my point of view, see what the other person thinks.  But I do not roll my eyes or tell them that they can't say that because I'm a Christian and don't want to hear nor have to listen to it.  I do my darnedest to treat all people equally and with kindness and respect.

Yes, Christians are in the majority in the USA.  But the squeaky wheel (the ACLU, for one) gets the grease.  While we might not get completely persecuted politically, while we might not ever be run out of the country or the like, we do sometimes (and sometimes it's often) have to deal with persecution.

I didn't include Catholics in those percentages because they are the only religion we have that isn't pretty much Baptist or Assembly of God.  In a town not far from here we do have some Jehovah's Witnesses.  And we have a few very small Church of Christ churches, but they probably wouldn't even get a half percent.  It's nothing against Catholics since I count many of them dear friends of mine.  I am sorry that didn't make sense.  In fact, the Assembly of God church couldn't really get even half a percentage either.  Pretty much we're mostly Baptist, Southern Baptist, or Free-Will Baptist.  There aren't any Jewish people that I am aware of.  Very few black people, and none of them celebrate Kwanzaa unless they just keep that very, very private.  That's really about it.

I figured as much about the catholics, but I I felt like prodding you.

Wow, if people are immature to that degree about religion, my usual conclusion is that they aren't worth the trouble (though there's the few that feel that strongly that can agree to disagree and I can be friends with without those discussions). I guess I've blocked most of that sort of people out of my life.

On the School issue, we have a FCA, fellowship of christian athletes(I think it started that way, now all are invited) which has prayer happening every thursday and they have some big events, but not in class. I think the objection is to audible prayer in class, where other students have to listen. While I don't personally care, I think some people do.

I don't believe God intended for us to understand everything. He created the world as a place for his most prized possessions, us, to enjoy and inhabit. He is a God of secrets and gave man the drive to try to unlock secrets and He must delight when one of his secrets is dicovered and another of His truths is proven.



If you love something do you sit on the sidelines and watch it from afar? Or do you try to interact with it? What if by sitting on the sidelines, you see your most prized possesion destroying itself? Can you love like that? Man was made in the image of God and therefore has his qualities, although sin and the fall has corrupted them, they are still reflections of God's love and character. I believe God desires to be intimate to every human on the earth, but he desires even more for every human to desire to be intimate and love him.




God's original creation was perfect. Disobedance and the fall flawed it. I believe God works to save as many humans as can be saved before sin finally tears this world apart. Jesus was sent as the great rescuer, to allow a way for man to achieve righteousness, even if it is indirect, and therefore allow man to enter into the presence of the Lord.




Well here is were the science community dropped the ball. We evolve. However we didn't start in some organic soup. We were formed in God's image. Science's biggest problem is (in this respect) is that it is biased. Biased against the super natural. Some things aren't meant to be understood. That is the whole beauty of faith. Faith that even if it doesn't seem possible, knowing that it is. If science could prove that God exists with formula and examinations, where is the glory in winning over man by fact. It is much better to win man's heart through faith, and immeasurably more valuable. I mean if everyone could just meet God there would be no question about loving Him. The love would be "cheaper" for lack of a better word. But Love that is given in faith alone, is truely priceless.


Anyway, these are my personal beliefs. I have only been saved for about 2 years, but I can honestly say I am more contented now than at any time in my life. Imagine a life without any regret. Then look at me. If anyone wants to discuss it, I welcome the opportunity to talk/email/whatever to tell you about it or answer any question you have. PM me. It's truely the way to live.

The best arguement against Christianity has always been Christians. You know why, because we are a flawed people living in a flawed world and noone is perfect. Everyone is tempted by something.

I myself try not to be religious. I am more interested in relationship. I think that if you really want to be a good christian, at least as good as your flesh and this world will allow, then you are gonna fail, but it's more important about how you handle this failure rather than about the fact that you failed. Do you turn to God? Do you curse yourself? Do you repent?

Oh goody, a polite, well reasoned, and well spoken proponent from the opposite side. These conversations allways seem to be the most illuminating and informative.



It is man's nature to attempt to understand everything. It is why the average american, briton, and resident of many other countries lives better than a midevil king. If they are truly god's truths, then inevitably they will be proven right, and falsehoods will be proven wrong.



A perfect creation is one that will not disobey nor fall. An Omniscent god must have known that it would would disobey and fall. This is quite scary.



I would rather have the admiration of men, than that of sheep. It is my personal opinion that the admiration of a reasoned person who has examined all the facts, and come to the conclusion that I exist and am someone to be admired than someone who believes because their parents told them to believe and fear, or they would be damned for eternity. Your argument also works reasonably well for every religion in existance, why yours?

Science, by definiton, is the examination of the natural, what we can recreate and use. There is no purpose in including the supernatural in science, because it is, by definition unrecreatable. Or, if it is, do you really wish man to attempt to use god? Science doesn't tell us what to believe, many scientists accept evolution and still believe god created the earth. Science takes the facts, and create theories that offer the most useful expaination. Through extensive testing and verification, most of these are ruled out, even longstanding ones. The current set of un-ruled out theories is science, the closest to truth we have been(science almost never backtracks). This is how we come to understand the world. If evolution is false, it will be thrown out.

Do you have a MSN IM Jacktucker(or even yahoo or AIM)? I would be interested in continuing this conversation in real(er) time.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:46, Sun 09 Dec 2007.

I've never seen why there is a problem reconciling creationism and evolution; at some point there was that extra something that made men more (and sometimes in our imperfections, less) than the beasts.  Where did that 'spark' come from if not from God?

Also the concept of free will - if you were all-powerful, would you want worship from blind faith, with no choice, no intelligence to realize there are other possibilities?  That would be a pretty empty worship.  Once we were given the choice of whether to follow God or to go our own way, of course some made the wrong choices.  And the different churches/religions - if God had meant us all to worship in exactly the same way, would S/he have made us in such variety?  I've never trusted any church or sect that says their way is the only way and that the rest of us are going to hell.

That's a good bit of why I'm agnostic. I have never had much argument about religion with anyone who believed in letting everyone worship their own way, including nonbelief. Though those groups tend to also let science and government operate by themselves without overt religious influence.

My personal opinion is that morals, as well as worship, are cheapened by blind obedience. I have arrived at the conclusion that it is better to be courteous and kind to fellow people myself, and my morals are stronger for it. If a god would reject me for deriving my own beliefs, I would not wish to be accepted by him.

Why not? We have living organisms that range from organic molecules to viruses to cells to multi-cellular creatures. We see the molecules in the viruses, and the viruses and in the cells, the cells clustered together. The connections and relations are apparent. We can chart the course of evolution from these to more complex creatures. Basic chemistry and simple physical principles can account for an awful lot of growth, especially in a few billion years.

We can even create the chemicals of life in the lab, from basic components. The wrong chirality perhaps, but close.



Heh. Now I can't help but think of God as a great chimp in the sky. :D

Now this is where I disagree... well, lots of places, actually. Lets start with the ascertation that there are no fundamentalist atheists.

Atheists believe, to the hilt, that there is no God. There's no namby-pambying around, to an Atheist (A - not, Theist - a merger of 'God' and 'Follower'), there is no God. There are no Souls. There is simply our present existance. Therefore, Atheists are as liable to be "Fundamentalists" (By which I believe you mean 'Intolerant evangelists', which isn't really what a Fundamentalist is) as any other member of an organised religion.

Next, lets move on to the idea that we have a 'spark' that seperates us from animals... I would dearly love to have someone explain this to me, because it makes no sense whatsoever. Because we can't teach animals English? I just don't get it.

Here's where I slip into maybe a little bit of evangelical preaching - try to forgive me, but I don't know another way of explaining my beliefs. To me, as an Animist, everything has a soul. You, me, the spider on the wall, the city I live in. God (or Gods, if you want to take them - as I do - as seperate individuals) is everywhere, in everything, because that divine spark of God is what makes us alive. God may or may not have created everything, but that doesn't matter, because there is a part of God in everything. When something dies, its soul moves on to another life as something else - maybe it'll be a corporeal creature, maybe a human, or a mouse, maybe it'll take residence in a mountain or a city, or maybe it'll just stay incorporeal for a while as a spirit of some kind. Souls, like Energy, can't be created or destroyed. Religions like mine are called 'Pantheistic' religions - 'Pan' meaning 'Everything', 'Theistic' meaning 'God-related'. Literally read, 'God is everything'.

As to God's mysteries... well, it's ineffable, innit? The ineffable plan.. 'n... stuff. God isn't meant to be understood - that's fine, nothing is meant to be understood... perhaps we just feel the need to understand God because we have that drive known as 'curiosity'. What's down that hole? What's around that corner? What happens if I stick my hand in this lion's mouth?

I'm only presenting my side of the argument in the hope of furthering discussion - I'm aware that many people disagree with me, and many of their arguments. I've never had a visitation from an Angel or anything visual like that, my religion is based on vague feelings, intuition and what makes sense to me, along with a healthy dose of what might be co-incidence, might be the results of me talking nicely to the right spirits, or might be the result of God/YHWH/Allah/the Myriad/whoever taking pity on a poor heathen...

I don't pretend to understand why the World is the way it is. Here is my theory and believe me I want to underline I have this reasoning simply because it popped in my head. I struggle with my own bias against the supernatural. My faith is far from perfect.

I speculate that God created the world in anticpation of the fall. He gave man the power of choice. Hmmm let me go back further. God created the universe xxx million years ago and it was all good. The angels where the first of His children, again created in His own image. He didn't put them through any trials or tribulations, rather He lavished them with everything they could want or need. Time passes and Satan decides he wants more because no matter what he must always bow to one. He starts a rebellion in heaven and is put out of God's presence. God's remaining angels are His totally and faithfully, but God wants more. He wants followers that could have rejected him rather than followers (angels) that He created to follow him. Their love and devotion is all the more sweeter because they faced the fire to be with him. Their love wasn't created for Him. It was given to Him. (Anyone following me here) Well God made the world and allowed sin to enter it. This set off a chain of events designed to 1: Populate the enitre world with potental followers 2: Test their faith to weed out the ones who are simply fair-weather followers 3: prepare the world for the final chapters of our history.

To put it into an earthly vision. I love to hunt. I have killed many animals over the last few years and I remember each one. But I can honestly say that the trophies I love the most are the ones that I worked the hardest for.

Do you feel this way about something in your life???



Well lets get a few things out in the open.
A: I'm not about religion. I'm about relationship. BIG difference. I want that relationship. Religion is just a term.
1: My parents aren't religious and therefore didn't train me to be a christian. In fact for a time I denouced God when I enetered into middle school.
2: I disagree with you about having a reasoned, totally informed view.
(to give an earthly view)
Would you even ask a girl to marry you if you knew she would say no? How would that knowledge affect your attitude and actions toward her? Toward others. Do you thrill to the chase? You might never live life to the fullest if you knew that no one would marry/love you.
3: My statements are not arguements. I state the truth as I believe.

As for every religion, Christianty's in it's simpliest form is the only truely non-preformance based religion. It's the fairest and easiest.
1: Anyone CAN do it
2: Everyone is WELCOME to do it
3: Everyone does it the SAME way.

All of the other religions in the world require you to act a certain way, wear your clothes this way, eat this or that, whatever. Christianty only requires that you put your faith in Christ to pay the blood bill of your sin.



PM me and I'll send you my contact info.

As a Christian, I believe that the "spark" you refer to is our God-given power of dominion over the earth and everything on it. The fact that we can tame anything on this earth (or everything up to this point) speaks to me that the Word is true. And God gave man dominion over the earth and everything on it.... The fact that we are created in his image. God is timeless and eternal. We are reflections of this in our spirital souls. Our souls are eternal.



Then to you, a soul is eternal but never finds the "end". It has no purpose. It simply IS. Ever wonder where it all started? Ever wonder what you are here for? Seems to me like a "why bother" existance. I'll just wait and see what my next life is like. That doesn't speak to me. That implies that we are just leaves floating about. I think God gives his followers a drive and energy to want to matter. To become a voice/power/vessel/tool to be used. How man uses, and to what extent he uses it, that gift, is left up to the man. Ever feel like you want to accomplish something???

I agree with this. Empty or Cheaper. It's my theory that this is where Satan and his angels came from.




Well I don't believe in religion. It's done alot of bad for the Word, IMO. But one thing the bible does say, and I believe that the Word is God-inspired and God-breathed, is that there is but one way for man to come before God, and that is through Jesus Christ. That is in the bible specifically.
One Door, One Way in, Everyone is Welcome and Able to come to Christ.

BTW, I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone. My hope is that someone reading this will begin asking questions and will at least look into this Christianty thing. Maybe they will find something that lights a fire in their souls. I believe that if you are one of God's chosen, then you will be given the opportunity to come to Him. He might put you through hell to finally break down and turn to Him, or not to turn to Him. Man's choice. I myself try to learn the tough lessons the first time around.

To me the 'spark' is that which gives us morality, and unfortunately immorality too.  For animals, there is only instinct, though some learn from humans about cruelty/kindness and the like.  Think of a cat, who will love you and purr for you, but when it gets down to it is following the instinctive pattern for getting what she wants.  Think of how the same cat will tend to abandon the runt of her litter, though she might be persuaded to change her mind, again by a human, because the runt has less chance for survival, and she instinctively concentrates on those more likely to live.  Humans, on the other hand, may be kind and give more attention to the weak one, if that is their bent.

An empty, pointless existance... yes, there are things I want, and I will hunt them (to use your analogy) to the best of my ability... because living is what makes life matter. It's self-fulfilling - yes, you can drift and do nothing, but that's pointless and gets you nowhere. I have no higher goals to strive for, as you rightly say - if I'm good or evil, successful or a failiure, it won't affect what happens after I die - but it affects what this life is like, and because of the self-determining nature of the future, how I act in this life could well affect how I live in the next one. If in this life, I take actions that will make the world a better place, then in my next life, I'll be born into a better place. If you like, you can think of it as working towards Heaven - not as a mythical other realm, but as a place that this earth will eventually reach. I have things I care about, and people I love, and that's enough to give me a purpose. I work towards their (and, not incidentally, my) happiness. Working towards the 'end'... what's so great about the End? It's just an end. The journey, in my philosophy, is the important part. The ends justify the means, but that's all they're good for. The point, to me, is the means.

Animals with souls... Brianna's point about the cat can be argued. That's the issue of 'Altruism'. However, other animals show signs of altruism as well - social insects, for example, and social creatures such as dogs and monkeys. Is it any co-incidence that humans feel close to these creatures? But, like you get lone wolves, you get lone humans who don't understand or use altruism. Just like you get social cats that accept and enjoy other felines' presence, but most dislike the competition.

Caring for weaker children as a human concept is so recent that people haven't learned to see past it yet. History is filled with cultures that expose weaker children, or dispose of unwanted females or those born with disabilities (distinguished from 'cripples' because a cripple is someone who becomes disabled through misadventure). Human cultures. We've developed the habit of caring for weaker children because we now have the means to support them through technology we've developed. Perhaps the fact that we saw the need to develop that technology is a sign that we're some form of higher life-form, because we certainly don't need it any more than cats or rabbits do... but on the other hand, if souls take on the shape of their flesh, then perhaps that's a human nature - if all creatures were the same, what would be the purpose in changing form between lives?

Your belief here is confused. I would have said argument, but you said that they're not arguments, they're beliefs. You say that "as for every religion, Christianity...", but then you identify Christianity as being unique over the same subject.

Bhuddism has some of the stricted rules on behaviour of any religion, but at its core, it has one basic tenet: Be the purest you can be.

Christianity has many rules and regulations attached to it! The ten commandments may be old testament, but they're still in the bible. As are many of the laws in Corinthians - like "don't eat shellfish". My partener is Free Church Christian, and she believes that the Bible is a book of guidelines to behaviour (as opposed to Windwalker's Baptist friends, who believe that it's a book of prophesies). If Christianity is a religion without restrictions, how can its holy book be a guide to life?

On another note, finals are coming up/already arrived for many of us college studnets. Good luck and happy holidays to all.

Yea, I was trying to hurry and mis stated that. I meant that other religions have performance structures, while Christianty does not.



Did you mean Strictest rather and stricted (I'll asssume you did) But you can't achieve this higher level without performance. You're only as pure/holy as you can demonstrate.



Okay, I can get into this one. Christianty isn't about rules. It has alot about what you can do to have a better life. The old testament did have alot of rules. But after Jesus's ressurection, these rules lost alot of their power. I believe they are simply a guideline to show you why you need Jesus. Because no man on earth can live by all these rules and achieve rightesness. If any man could that would be the same as calling Jesus a liar. "For no one comes to the Father except through Me.." Another way it's stated is that after Jesus' death and rebirth that man does not live by the law (old testament) anymore. In the new testament, especially Paul's letters to Romans, He talks about being weak in the flesh, yet strong in the spirit. Also about how we should try to live right, but realize that it is impossible to live perfect and after the day is over and you fought your battles and lost where you lost and won where you've won, you still aren't worthy to be in God's presence. That's where Jesus takes over and pays your bill.

It's interesting to note that ALL of the "heroes" in the bible committed horrible sins. They are pointed out, I believe, to show specifically that no one is perfect. Look at King David. A man after God's own heart. He lusted after another man's wife then had that man put to death by sending him to the front lines. Look at Moses, he killed a man in his early days and he was argueably the strongest leader in the bible and he even got to see God's glory. "ALL have sinned and fell short"

As for my denomination, I don't have one. I believe in the Word. My theology is baptist based, but really I study my bible and come to my own beliefs. As for other denominations, I'm not that well versed in them to debate their aspects.




The idea, I believe, is that by accepting Christ as your personal savior you invite the Holy Spirit into your heart. You therefore become more aware of when you are sinning. It doesn't stop you from doing it, but it convicts you to repent when you do. And you will, because even the most devote Christians are still flesh and still have the sin DNA in their blood and will still fail. When I got saved I had an awareness I'd never noticed before. It's unbelieveable how much you can sin in one day. The biggest ones I fail on are gossip, lusting, and anger. But since that day in Jan of 2005, I can honestly say I am doing better. I have quit lying, and what I'm talking about are little white lies. I really didn't lie on a grand scale before, but I would embellish my stories to the point that they became lies. I am convicted when I see a beautiful woman and I have those thoughts. You can argue it's man's nature, but really it's sin's nature rearing it's head. But I have the Spirit within me pointing out these things to me. And you know what, I'm thankful for it. Because before I had it, I was ignorant of myself. I believe that by becoming saved you become God's partner on earth. Other non-believers will look at you and examine you. And you should try to shine and be a light to the lost that they may be come to the light. And to shine isn't just to preach to someone, it's to try to live your life as best you can according to the bible. To live by example and show those around you what peace and happiness is truely.

I have a question: What do you consider as having an abundant life? How does your religion relate to this?

If you'd like I would share my testimony with you and you can draw what you will from it. It's pretty graphic and I'll not submit it in public, but I will share it with anyone in private. I'm not ashamed of it, it brought me to God, so how can I be. Without those actions, I might be lost. I owe those events my very life.

JT, you and I should definately talk!  I have the same thoughts about religion, the personal relationship with Christ, etc.  I go to a Baptist church now, but I attended an Assemblies of God church for years before that, a Nazarene before that, and have spent a lot of time in the old Church of Christ churches and in Jehovah's Witnesses 'meetings.'  My testimony is also a bit graphic in nature and nothing I could just shout out to the world, but I'd be willing to share privately to those truly interested for more than just knowing bad things and gossipping and stuff.

Pretty much everything you just said is what I had planned on saying, so I won't reiterate it.

Let me just throw a little something into the mix.

<rant>
I know many Christians who talk about how Christianity is the most free religion, that it doesn't have rules (beyond the believe in Jesus part) or that it doesn't have strict guidelines and codes and rituals etc. etc.

Now here's some food for thought: Most Christian religions are a buffet, in my mind. They pick and choose what they believe and don't believe out of the Old and New Testament, they choose and disregard this or that or the other. "This is a guideline" "This is a metaphor" "This is just space filler."

But it's hard to compare that kind of stance against other religions. Other religions are much more focused, much more unified. Christianity is very diluted across the countless different subbranches.

You say that Christianity doesn't have rules and rituals, but what about Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? Catholics? They're a part of Christianity, whether you want them to be or not. So you could say that parts of Christianity are free and open, but remember that there are an equal number that aren't.

If you're going to defend a religion I say you have to defend it as a whole, not just picking and choosing the best parts and brushing the rest under the rugs.
</rant>

I typed this up yesterday, but it got lost in rpol's post-vaccum:

Before this goes on, I would like to clarify my own personal views. I am somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, I don't really fit the perfect description of either. I believe that, if something is true, that logical examination of the facts will lead to the truthful conclusion. I am a big fan of the scientific method. I find no evidence supporting any god, and a little detracting from the possibility of a god similar to humans. Reasoned theory leaves a pathway that does not require any god, and is plausible (ask me where the big bang came from, and I'll ask you where god came from, the answers will be similar).

Thus, because there is no evidence supporting a god, I cannot believe, it is simply who I am. However, I do not discount the possibility.

From the assumption that there is no god, and, similarly, no supernatural, I conclude that human beings are flesh and blood, no soul, no eternity. When my heart stops beating, oxygen will stop flowing to my brain, my cognitive functions will cease, and I will cease to exist. This is somewhat depressing, but I have gotten over it.

The question that arises now, is why? Is there any purpose in living at all? Before I answer that, I would like to answer a related question. What is the difference between a human being and an animal? Effectively nothing, both are made of atoms and molecules, both "live" by the definition of life. Excepting one thing, a human being asks the question "why?" This question is what can give life purpose and is the foundation for religion.

"Why?" allows us to create our own purpose, our own points of view, and our own morals. I make my purpose to enjoy my life and those of my fellow men, and I find it in reason. Others find their purpose in religion, and that is equally valid. We both live a fulfilling life, and that is what matters.

Now, the question of morality, I am a moral relativist, a nihilist by the denotation, though not the connotation, of the word, as you have likely inferred. Everyone's purpose, and thus morals, is different. And similarly, those who have not found a purpose tend not to have not yet found morals. And those who have found a purpose opposite to mine have morals opposite to mine. I can oppose and fight them while still accepting that their purposes are valid. It is inherent in my own purpose to oppose them.

My morals are startlingly similar to the morals of a religious person. I believe in the value of human life as much as a religious person (and more than some, to quote a crusader: "Kill them all. God will know his own."). I value courtesy and kindness. While I believe that these are evolved morals, implanted on the human psyche by the monumental advantage that civilization gives to a species, I do not care. They are what I believe is the right thing to do.

My morals are quite similar to a person of religion, and so is my life. I share the same flaws of humanity, and an almost identical purpose, except a believer's include a bit about God and a holy book.

I thus conclude that it does not matter if God exists. I would act almost the same. If god would deny heaven on the basis of religion, I'd rather burn in hell with Gandhi, Saladin, or Mother Theresa, depending on who turned out wrong.

So, Praguepride, you're saying that everyone who wishes to defend a religion should take a fundamentalist view towards that religion? Interesting. But if you say that Mormons, etc, are all forms of Christian, you may as well say that all Christians are a form of Jew, and all Jews are a form of Muslim - which is accepted not to be true, and many people would take offense to the suggestion that it is.

Jack - What you've just described as your attitude towards religion pretty much places you squarely in the middle of the Free Church denomination. Even if you don't associate yourself with other FC members, if anyone asks what denomination you are, that seems like a good answer if you want to claim a group. It's all good, I like FC. ^^ They're the most reasonable Christians I've ever encountered. ;)

Of course, I'm curious about your story, but one thing I do know is that enlightenment is unique to everyone, whatever the similarities in their stories. That testimony is the grounding point of your religion, and I don't think it's possible for anyone who hasn't had a revelation like that to be a true believer. My own enlightenment certainly isn't anything dramatic or interesting, basically involving two visits to the site of a world war 2 massacre. During the first, I could feel the death in the air. The place - call it a genius loci, or a kami, or whatever you like - was heavy with suffering and grief. I went back there two years later, when the small memorial had turned into what was basically a tourist-trap mockery of a graveyard, and that heaviness was gone. The burdened spirit had moved on or been displaced, and a new, apparently commercially-minded one had taken its place. That's the starting point of my developing faith... the actual everything coming together to form the mish-mash of beliefs and ideals that I now follow developed more slowly after that, but those two visits opened my eyes.

To your question, though, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by an 'abundant' life. If you mean a full, fullfilling one, then the one I have now almost fits the bill. I spend my time looking after my disabled partner - half carer, half servant. The only thing that I think is missing is that I'm limited to looking after her... There are other people, some of whome suffer more than she does, but I can't do anything to help them. Even if I thought it would help, I don't have any money to throw at charities, and I lack the skills or time to help them myself. So I guess if you ask what makes my life full and content, then it's helping others, either understand, or have fun, or just be happy.

One thing I find interesting is that the deadly sins(—anger, covetousness, envy, gluttony, lust, pride, and sloth) is some of the parts that drive man. Take envy. Who has not envyed someone. May it be for the wealth someone has or the amount of close friends that someone has it's still envy. So why take and write that those are deadly sins when they are so much of not only humans, but also animals. A Lion can be full of pride and lust. it's natures way to drive us forward, very much like the carrot dangeling in front of the mule drawing the cart.

I know that has nothing to do with what we actually spoke about, but it involved religion.

Also I must say that I find it somewhat strange and so many ways confusing why the Christians and Muslim still fight on. Also Jews and Muslims and really all religions fight so much. To be honest some of the religions have the same spawn point(so to speak). The Jews believe in god, but not in Jesus. Christians believe in God and Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus, Moses and all the other people in Christianity and Jewish believe is really prophets, but that simply greedy people or other people trying to drive it to their view corrupted the message spoken by god. So in some sense why fight against each other when you all believe in the same god.

Me and a friends has talked much about this over the years. It's insain how much infighting there has really been over the years. Now I know that I'm going to get a lot of trouble for this and should properly not say this. I think that religion was a fine instrument(sorry to all of you who believe. This is just my point of view) to keep people in behaving well. But it has caused so much chaos and destruction, not to mention deaths. In some sense religion is the worst disaster that we have had in some sense.

Now to explain why I do not believe and why I can say these things.

If really there is a god. Then why let his creations destroy each other when both are on his side only choosing different paths to him. Also people are happy to say that all the chaos hat man has done is to free will. The bible contradict itself sometimes. He created us and the world. he then as a gift gave Free will to all creatures. But answer me then. if he is all powerful and all knowing then should he not have foreseen the events that are happening. Should he not intervene. Think about it. We are close to destroy this creation of his. Even tough it's only a small part of the creation he has maid why let it tear itself apart. Why has he not intervened to stop wars, famine, the natural disasters, the cruelty and senseless violence that has been created.

Ask yourself. If you actually meet god what would you do. And then again if he said tell me one thing you would have taken away from the earth. What would you destroy.

Personally I would feel a lot of hate and anger towards him. What I would have removed from the earth is religion.

Rather then add an opinion I have a question for DM Wolf.

If you remove religion, what prevents the average person from doing all those immoral things that are still legal (prostitution, lying, cheating on a husband/wife/other, betrayal, ect...)? Basically, I'm asking what would be the new source of morality if not religion?

If your answer is a legal system and its laws, I would point out that plenty of people have been killed due to different belief in governmental issues.

Disclaimor:

This is not a question due to my disagreement with DM Wolf, as I'm not entirely sure I disagree. Nor is this a statement of opinion of any sort.

Okay this one is easy to me. Christianty is universal. It is made for man. Now think about this. How diverse is man? How many different cultures are out there? Don't you think God in his perfect wisdom and perfect love would want a way to potentally reach them all? As for the Word, I believe it is all true and all important. However I believe it has a progression. After all it is a total history of mankind. The Old Testament was given to the people to prove to them that they couldn't be righteous by themselves. Sure the Pharasis tried to do it and they lived it day and night, but they STILL fell short. However the New Testament changed the Old Testament. It no longer was there for people to try to strive for. It was just a guideline to show you where you failed. Also in the Old Testament there are a lot of prophesis. Really it (the bible) is all that. Books of Law (Gensis to Deuteronomy) The History of the Kings (Joshua to 2nd Chronicles) The Prophets (Ezra to Job; Isaiah to Malachi) The Gospels (Matthew to John) More History (Acts) The Letters (which are meant to inspire, IMO) And then more Prophecy (Revelations) I think that the groups that usually only pick and chose what they want to follow are most always label with a specific denomination. Thats why I'm a Christian. I read the whole Word and then I go with what I've learned.



I assume this isn't directed at me personally, but rather toward the stereotypical Christian, or at least what mainstream media would label as such.

The different denominations that you listed all have one thing in common. Know what it is? They are products of man. Not the bible. Christianty, IMO, in it's purest form has next to nothing to do with rituals, rules, etc.. It only has to do with Christ. (hence the name) It has nothing to do with what you have done, but rather what was done for you. Now all these different sects can argue their points. Catholics seem to be all about the Father and creating a beautiful church with beautiful rituals, Jehovah's Witnesses want to add to the bible, they all do something and claim it's what the bible means. I say the bible is what it is. History and Hope. You don't add to it, you don't take away from it. I also think that you don't pick a single aspect of the Godhead and put it on a pedistal higher than the other two. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all equally important.

The rest of your message I will respect as you intended it to be. However I would like to point out something here.

God does not DENY heaven on the basis of religion. He denies heaven to sin. I am cleared (in God's eyes) of my sin by Jesus's sacrifice and my faith in this sacifice. Therefore the ultimate reward of rebirth from death and eternal life in paradise (heaven on earth) is opened to me and I can fall forward into my Father's loving arms.

Here is my view on groups. I don't claim them. I don't feel I need an association. I am happy just being a Christian.



That is admirable. Not quite what I was looking for, but I understand what you say. As to what is the abundant life? For me it is simply living like a child. I have no regrets, I have no alterior motives, I put my trust in my Father God, and my faith in my Savior Jesus. I am at peace with my life. I have no worries about it. I am concerned about my daughter and other things, but I know that as a child of God, it really isn't important what I feel. It's gonna happen according to God's design. Who am I to question Him? Being a father myself has amplified this. I know how much I love my daughter, and I can only imagine how much God, the Perfect Father, loves me. My love for my daughter is like a candle flame is to the sun, compared to his love for me. Who am I to question his works? I just lie back and try to shine for His Glory and grow the Kingdom. And that is simply living right and being willing to spread the gosple whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I saw a poster at work that read something like this:

This is your pilot God. You have no need to worry about anything I am in total control. Sit Back, Relax, and Have a Great Day.

Thats what I call the abundant life.

In my view, all religions are equally valid. You can tell me all you want, but you cannot show me. A muslim would say: "God does not DENY heaven on the basis of religion. He denies heaven to sin. The sin of ascribing his word to false prophets" I'm not familiar enough with Jewish customs, but I'm sure they have a similar view.

How can you show me that your religion is the unsinful one? You tell me that I must have faith. Why faith in christ? Why not Allah? There is no reason that you can give me to prove your religion that does not lie on the assumption that your religion is true.

I am somewhat disappointed that you didn't adress the rest of my views, challenges to them are what make them either stronger or more correct. Anylizing disagreement and revising is an important part of my views.

I believe that it would not be much different then today. With the falling numbers of true believers and the increasing rate of what you might call half believers(people who have questions about there fate, In doubt about the existence of a god.) The way I see it we are and will always be a pack animal. We gathered before for strength in numbers like the wolfs do. We are all ruled by our own set of values. Now seen as we are pack animal sure there would be all sorts of bad things(lying, betrayal, cheating. A few countries are still allowing prostitution) as it is today, but without any exception no matter if you have a religion present or not those things are going to exist(it's human nature) What would cause our new morals would be the idea for the greater good. What is generally good for the pack will be good for you. After how I see it that is the idea that many has even if they see it or not. It's what is at the core of most religions, but instead of giving credit to God I give it to human nature that has developed for endless years. Those who did not participate actively and had some use in the group would most likely be an outcast and that human would perish most likely. Now seen as it was like that for many many generations it has had a effect that even tough people not always know why or even notice it they will help. Why because it's a basic instinct developed by many generations of where it was a necessary for survival.

I'm DEFINITELY staying out of this discussion.  I've seen too many rational, intelligent discussions on this subject turn into flame wars that wreck happy, pleasant groups.  It's looking civil and rational so far.  Best of luck on it staying that way.

On the other hand, I DO have a completley off topic question / invitation, and this seems like the most appropriate place for it.

I'm trying to start up a simple, four-color comics superhero game using the Champions 5 rules.  I have a friend who likes supers and wanted to play, and I could never get it to run as a pbem game, so I thought I'd try it here.

I'm looking for three or four players.  I'm willing to help out with character generation if you're not familiar with the rules or the setting.  The one player I have so far is running a power armor type, but just about any other hero type is welcome.

There's not much there yet, since I'm using a published setting.  Just guidelines that will help with chargen if you know the rules.

The game's at link to "Millenium Heroes - Champions 5e"

I don't have a religion. I have my own personal beliefs. If I did have one I don't think I'd consider it sinful. The membership maybe but not the doctrine as long as it's based on the Word. If it comes from the Word then it isn't sinful. If man has added to or taken away, or taken it out of context, then it could be considered sinful.

Asfor proving my religion, I have no interest in that. That would cheapen my faith. (sounds like a comp-out huh?)

Let me ask you this. Do you believe in Nero? (Roman Ceasar at the high point of the roman empire) How about Alexander the Great? Cyrus the Great? How about King Tut? Do you believe that these people existed?

HMMM, I dunno. I might go back and look at the post with that in mind. I don't feel it is that important (not to down play your beliefs) I think you are set in your beliefs as I am in mine. I only hope that if you are going to make a decsion like that, that you look at Christianty before dismissing out of hand. I mean to me you are no less than throwing your life away.

I think he did. And I think he is interceeding on behalf of his believers and mankind in general. Look back at post #21 for my reasoning on this.. I'll quote myself also. Also consider this. He has forseen that this earth will melt away like snow. He has a plan and it is even described in Revelations. This earth isn't the ending. It is the begining of the final stage. The eternal era. I think of the current earth as the thresher to render the wheat that will be planted forever in the next world. And God WILL dwell with man, not in heaven from afar, but with man, hand in hand, on the ground. In a perfect world. It's what he has been working for this whole time (from my understanding of the Word) He wants the true believers to be tested. He wants only those who choose to Love Him to come to Him. He wants to have a intimate and earthly relationship with man. I think He knows that it can never happen on this earth. that it must be "reset" to cleanse it of sin. God cannot be in the presence of sin.





When I meet God that stuff won't matter. All that will matter is being there with Him. It's not for me to judge (Thank God) what should stay or not. I think it will be a new world. I also think that when I meet God there will be no question as to worshipping him. It will complete me. It's what I was made to do.

As for hatred and anger, those things won't exist. They will be wiped from every heart. Religion will be a thing of the past. It will only be the way. The way it is supposed to be. There won't be a label on anyone. It won't matter what you look like, what you did in the old world, what you believe. Your faith and beliefs will be a no brainer. You will see God and you won't even wonder why you ever thought otherwise. You will be reborn.

Anyway, all I ask is that you look into it before throwing away your life jsut because of some bad expierence you had with religion. I'll say it again, the best arguement against Christianity is Christians. The point is to realized this and decide on what your heart is telling you. The bible says to ask and you will get an answer, knock and it will be opened to you.

Here is a movie to watch that inspires me, maybe it can give you a little insight:
Kingdom of Heaven

Well, the first part of my Tae Kwon Do grading is tonight, in a scant few hours. Korean terminology (I now know more than I need, which is good) and 100 push-ups and sit-ups (I can do rather less than that, but I can get away with it).

I feared an argument would erupt, but this conversation is going well. Thank you to all involved, it's been enlightening.

My take on religion and faith is this: I'm a Doctor Who fan. I enjoy the tales of his adventures, I agree with the philosophy put forth in them, and try to live my life according to it.

That sounds basically like any serious religion, faith or philosophical outlook. It shares the most important components: a core philosophy illustrated by a body of lore and tales, that an adherent uses as a model for their life. It might be fictional, but has about as much factual basis as any other, with as much solid evidence.

Now, I don't think everyone should follow Doctor Who, it's not for everyone.  And I don't begrudge fans of Forgotten Realms or Star Trek for their choices, everyone has different views on life. I actually have a fair bit of respect and interest in the other fandoms. Also, I don't take every story as gospel, or get too upset if I don't like it; they're only made by imperfect people with different opinions than me.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:43, Wed 12 Dec 2007.

As for the film I have seen it and like it. A good movie.

Now if God really exists and tis is all i trial I would say this is no god that I want to follow. A god that will allow children to starve to death and kill in foul ways. For what, to test us. I just can't understand why one would do such a cruel and senseless thing. Okey if it's a trial a test if you will, but why cause so much suffering. Why rob people of there children before they are even born. Why watch them suffer in pain because there is no food. As for hatred and anger it will always be a part of man unless you remove all feelings. For what is love if you never experience the other. Anger, hatred are not good emotions, but they do sweet up the moment when you feel love and happiness. A man that can just sit and watch those who serve him suffer for many years. That is something I can not believe in.

Yes, though I wouldn't use that term, there are many records showing their existence, and in some cases a body in a tomb connected to them. I cannot be certain, but the evidence seems to show that they did.

However, to preempt the point I assume you would make. There is evidence to support the existence of Jesus. I conclude that there is a reasonable chance that he existed, and perhaps was a great man and leader. I merely see no evidence that he was divinely inspired.



The point being here that religion is unprovable. You can believe, but so can everyone else, differently. Almost every single argument that can be given for christianity can be given for the other major religions with minor modification.



I am not very set in my beliefs. The basic tenets of logic and reason are quite set, but the rest changes every day with every new observation and experience. The more my belifs change, the more set the basic foundations become, as changing my beliefs to account for new information is the foundations in action. Religious beliefs cannot change without distorting their foundation. I have looked at christianity, and many other religions.

(It seems to me that this particular discussion is reaching the end of it's useful lifetime, where it goes from "enlightening" to "veiled insults", so don't feel indulted if I drop out of it in a few days.)
This message was last edited by the GM at 10:06, Wed 12 Dec 2007.

JT - I find this a little ironic, so I hope you'll forgive me for being amused when you say that the best part of your religion is that you put all the responsibility on God and sit back and have a nice day, knowing that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you belive Christ will forgive you... considering that your main question about my faith was 'what makes it worth doing anything then?'

I couldn't live a life where no-one needed me because everything would be fine after death. I suppose that's why I can't live with heaven-and-hell Christians.

How's this for a discussion point... my Fiance is a FC Christian. One of the teachings she has chosen to interpret as the work of man intead of God is the idea of hell - she's a Christian who doesn't believe in Hell as a place-of-eternal-damnation. Instead, she believes that souls will be recyled on earth until they accept that the path to Heaven is through Jesus - so looking at it another way, 'Hell' is just another word for 'Earth', and the only reason she claims not to believe in Hell is because she doesn't mean quite the same thing by the term. What's your opinion on this? And of you, I mean.

Well, I did 65 push-ups, as much as I can and expected to do. I could only managed 48 sit-ups, which was much less than I liked. :(

But I did great with the terminology. Named everything except for the one move that wasn't in our notes and manual. The rest was easy. In fact, I was disappointed they didn't ask me something harder. :)

Next: patterns, one-steps, boards and tiles, and being beaten to a pulp. Hurrah!

Hehe, good luck ^^. And I'm sure you won't get too badly injured, it's only an exam. :p (famous last words...)

were these pushups all rapidfire?

I can do about 15 or so in pretty quick succession, but then I have to stop for about five seconds between doing that.

I tried to do them as fast as I could, which wasn't all that much. Doing them fast means you spend less time putting all your weight on your arms, so I found I could do more that way.

ah, I don't have much weight, so that's less of a problem. I even do my resting holding myself up.

Congrats, and good luck on the katas (are your patterns called katas?).

I've been told that board breaking isn't nearly as hard as one would expect after you've trained that much for them, but I wouldn't know because I've never done it, I just heard that on hearsay.

Good luck though.

We call them Poomsae. Katas are for the Japanese Karate, I think.

Board breaking turned out to be easier than I expected on the practice runs. But it depends on the type of wood you get. One poor kid bought pine, which is a whole lot stronger than we're supposed to use.

Aargh, I can't stand the wait.

Well when breaking boards it hurts more if you fail then if you make it. Congratulation BCM. Must you make your own pattern in your federation?

Holding and pushing are static and dynamic work, respectively. You can train with both, but to get good effect of your push-ups I'd recommend controlled movements and pausing at your lowest point (for one breath). Keep your body straight at all times, and if it's too hard stand on your knees rather than start contorting your upper body.
Try to do 20 in a row, fairly slowly, and vary the distance between your hands, as well as standing on your palms or your knuckles (fists) between reps. Example: 20 wide (palm), 20 shoulder-width (knuckles), 20 shoulder-width (palm), 20 hands together.
That's a fairly good exercise for the upper body. Do sit-ups and some kind of back exercise and you practically don't need to go to the gym :-)

I generally do about four sets of the 15 a day, along with assorted weights and situps when I get the time to lie down. I'm 16, and I've still got growing to do. I don't want to be a muscle man, just stay reasonably fit. Most of this happens when I'm watching TV or playing games, because I can do situps absentmindedly as I play, or lift weights as I watch TV.

Sorry, but I had something to say in relation to something in the end of the other thread.

If you get really good you can start doing fingertip pushups. Great way to develop strength in your fingers.

or a really nice way to break them. Works nicely if you got a big test you don't want to take.

Have you broken your fingers doing them?

Well, I did it. I am now a black belt.

First up was the patterns, sets of movements for those who don't know. I got off to a good start, until I stepped on something that got stuck to my little toe. I shook it off, but the distraction messed up my pattern, one I always have trouble with. I stopped and started, stopped and started until I got it right. The rest I had a few hiccups with, but recovered or restarted smoothly. I did them all well in the end, and got right all the bits I usually get wrong.

I later found that what I'd stepped on was a Lego block. A Lego block! A freaking Lego block! Of all the crazy things I could have stepped on (once a small grain of glass that embedded itself into my foot), I happen to step on an inexplicably placed Lego block. (Not so inexplicable, I guess, the place is a community centre that was probably doing stuff with children). Anyway, I scored a Lego block for my collection.

Later (there were plenty of black belt weapons demonstrations and mock fights in between for entertainment), we did the one-steps, where one person responds to an attack with a choreographed move. We did those well. I had a whole set of moves in mind that I mixed up and messed up half-way through, though I adapted well.

Then it was time for board breaking, a couple of kicks followed by a routine of 3 hand movements. I did well on those, each board satisfyingly broken. Though I scraped and cut my foot a bit.

And then... it was the fight. I got all the big tough or mean black belts. For ten long minutes they beat up on me like a punching bag. I lost all my energy, breath and strength with the first few kicks and punches to my body. I spent the rest of the match dizzy and confused and terrified, with no idea what was going on, what I should, no time to get my bearings, endless retreating backwards from my attackers. Most of the time I actually was backwards, as the blows to my back hurt much less than those to my front. On the plus side, I got a magnificent turn around back fist to my attacker's head. We weren't allowed head-shots, but I was well past telling the difference. Overall, I felt like a pinball, flying around, crashing into walls and people, the referee or my attacker would grab me and throw me back in.

Finally there was the tile breaking, which was shifted to last in case we broke our hands, though we'd lost of my strength in the fight. Thankfully, I broke six tiles out of eight in one clean strike, and no injuries.

And that was it. After five years of training and 10 minutes of pain and terror, we were given our black belts. There were six of us, three kids who were sickeningly faster and fitter than us older folks, and me and two friends. We'd started together, trained together and finally finished together, which was nice.

I should probably be pleased about being a black belt, but I'm not. I'm tired, my body is a mass of pains and bruises, red, brown, blue, green, with more surely to appear over the next few days. My stomach is sore all over from the numerous kicks and punches I got. I can barely bend, I stagger everywhere. I don't even feel any different to before; just the same me with a new item of clothing.

Maybe later I'll recover a bit and start to care. But for now, it's just pain.

Ooo, Lego - what colour?  Oh, yes, and congrats on the black belt too.  ;-)

Black, fittingly. :)

In my former club we had Norways youngest black belt. I think she was what 13-14 She had some really nice kicks. Wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of those.



Luckily no. The only thing I have broken is my arm. That hurt.

That story reminds me of a buddy of mine who was training to be a state trooper. One of the exercises they had to go through was the surprise mob attacks. Basically they were called in individually and told about a "scenario" like that there were two assailants and back-up was on it's way. That was all they were told and then they were put into a room with two trainers in redman suits.

(A redman suit is like riot gear for sparring and traininig. Here's a pic
http://www.atdamerican.com/images/large/LAW273ms-1.jpg )

They were then told that they had to defend themselves and keep their gun in it's holster until back-up arrived. Now normally an officer in that position where he is facing two aggressive perps would draw his firearm but that training was a different lesson. In this exercise they had to keep their gun holstered and one (or both) of the Redmen would be trying to overcome the officer and take his weapon.

Now the thing about a Redman suit is that they're nearly impervious to unarmed strikes. They have so much padding that they can take a beating all day long and continue attacking. And in this exercise boy did they attack, this was effectively a no-holds barred scenario. So, onto what happened.

My friend had learned some effective multiple opponent tactics from a Krav Maga friend of his, so he kept mobile and the Redmen had difficulties keeping up because of the bulkiness of their suits. They're fast but not manueverable. So my friend is doing alright for the first minute, dancing around and striking at the closest opponent while keeping the otherone blocked and distant. Then the third attacker came at my friend from behind and knocked him down. The three then started to go to town on him. He doesn't remember much until the point where one of them was choking him and pinning him down while the other started doing elbow drops into my friends chest and stomach. That's when my friend lost it, as he puts it. Flying into an angry rage he starts ripping off padding, he tore off one guys helmet and then bashed his face so that the Redman lost a tooth. He also, as he put it started trying to cripple his opponents by latching on and digging into the muscles and tendons with his fingers. I think it was when he ripped off the second Redmans helmet and after the first had lost a tooth when they called the exercise to an end, letting him up with shouts of "back-up arrived, you're safe."


Man I wish I could have seen a video of it. In conclusion: Real fights are nasty, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. I mean, if there's already 2 people you're fighting, what's to stop #3 and #4 from joining in as well?

Oh yeah, congrats BCM.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:41, Thu 20 Dec 2007.

I always liked Kenshin's take on fighting multiple opponents: You can't. But you can control the situation so that you only have to fight one at a time.

Use one as a weapon against the other? :)


Merry Christmas everybody!

This video shows the basic tactics on how to fight multiple opponents, basically always keep one opponent between you and all the other ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz4iy2-a4s0

Also, happy holidays everyone.

Merry Christmas!

DMing, anybody? Please?

Thay
Evermeet
Savage Frontier
Calimshan
Cormyr
The Shaar / Great Rift
Border Kingdoms - high level regions
Impiltur
Moonsea
Terrors Of The Underdark (Drow)
One-Shot Adventures
One-Shots & Orphanage - a place to run one-off games

And don't forget to let us know if you haven't seen your DM in a while (barring the  usual holiday season problems).

Hello everyone,I just wanted to throw my perhaps contraversial request out because if you don't ask,you don't know!:)

Firstly I want to make it clear I'm not at all trying to rock the boat or be a trouble maker.I love what RoA is and what it allows us as all as D&D fans do,be nerdy!I genuinely am interested and serious about my request as it would enhance my roleplaying experience and allow me and perhaps others who share the same ideas,to play a character they have dreamed of.

I would like to know if the following feats from Librim Mortis would be considered.

Corpsecrafting
& the feats which require it as a prerequisite
-Bolster Resistance
-Deadly Chill
-Destruction Retribution
-Hardened Flesh
-Nimble Bones

Necromantic Presence
-Necromantic Might
Stitchwork Flesh Familiar

Please hear me out with an open mind as I give my reasons for this request,and understand that I am not out to bend the rules or abuse them.

I am aware that raising the undead is considered an evil act and that in RoA most realms are good in nature.However I believe I have justification for playing a character who animates the dead without falling to the stereotype or even the idea of him being a villain.The character I wish to play is fascinated with the mysteries of life and death.He recognizes that death is as much a part of life as birth is,that it is the natural order of things.He tinkers with death as much as any scientist of our day does(the similarities between magic in D&D and technology in the real world are many and interesting)Without being a villain or evil he commits acts which many would believe to be evil,but only for the purposes of getting a better understanding of life and death.Necromancers are maligned because of their "desecration" of the dead,but so we're those performing autopsies.I'm not trying to say an Autopser and a Necromancer are two peas in a pod,but perhaps two peas in a pea field?I'm not positive how peas grow.

As far as animating a corpse being an act of evil,so is theft,and yet Rogues are allowed without question.Is animating a heap of rotting atoms that once was a person as evil as stealing from a man who would then be unable to support his family?While I'm certainly not trying to start a debate about "ethics in the world of D&D" I'm simply trying to give more depth to my argument and show that simply because something is an evil act doesn't imply that the ends don't justify the means.Now if the spirit of the dead person were trapped in the raised body that would be different,but as it is animated dead are just stinky,ugly,biological robots.

Anywho,I've wanted to play a Necromancer for a bit who was good with undead "pets" and these feats would certainly allow me to play that better.Thanks for taking the time to read this and for allowing us players to make these kinds of requests:)

I wish you luck with this PC Pangaean Tales, I truly do!

I believe I was the last one to try to make an case for raising the dead type character.

You're approaching it from a slightly different direction though, so perhaps you'll get this one through.


With all due respect to those that will post against you, I believe a great many arguements are along the lines of "This book says it evil; so its evil.". You simply can't argue with that; so the idea of a "family friendly raising the dead character" does not exist in ROA.

Let me make it clear though; I honestly do respect our DM's who are willing to put work into designing games for our PC's to play it. I simply think a great deal of them got it wrong on this one before.

And if you a get an unstoppable undead army into the bargain, then all the better, right? ;)

Without wishing to get into the whole "Is Necromancy Evil?" debate, there are a number of separate issues to take into account when considering whether to allow a necromancer PC, no matter how well the character can be justified. Is the DM willing to work with it? Are the other players? (Keep in mind that DMs and players rotate often around here). Is there a Paladin in danger of losing his cred according to the Code? Can the Cleric freely use his Turn Undead if needed? Is it safe to be slinging around negative energy effects with living PCs nearby? And undead seen running around town are a sure-fire way to disrupt a campaign, with mobs of villagers with pitchforks and torches. And then there's the smell.

Now, we haven't banned any core necromantic spells or characters. Some of it is usable quite freely. For example, there was once a necromancy-specialist wizard who really only used the spells for injuring and disabling enemies. But PCs specifically focused on the animating of the dead are usually disallowed, for the reasons above: too icky, too much hassle. Similarly, we tend to ban PrCs and the like that are deemed to be icky or antisocial (Alienist, Oozemaster).

Like any slightly off character concept, this is something you really should discuss with your prospective DM. If you can find one.

FWIW, I've been tinkering with a Dread Necromancer concept, one who frees undead from the clutches of evil liches and vampires, lets them have their just revenge, then lays them properly to rest. Or lets the deceased put their affairs in order. He'd also be capable of healing, though by sacrificing his own health.

Thanks PC O_Man_13 :)

You bring a valid point when you said."The book says it's evil;so it's evil."
That there is the rule of the D&D canon that we go by.

In my and all necromancer's defense(I feel like a lawyer or an apologist lol) I just want to point out that simply because your PC performs an evil act such as Animating the Dead,it does not make your PC evil through and through.Your PC could just operate in ways that the general populace frowns upon,just like thievery for example.Yet simply because a Rogue snatches someone's necklace doesn't mean he's black hearted.Yes it is moraly wrong,yes it is evil,but yet this is an evil which is accepted.I am aware that there are consequences for PC's that choose to pilfer,such as the law catching up or the victim coming back for retribution.All the more reason then perhaps to consider allowing people to play animators of the dead if they are willing to deal with the consequences of being socialy shunned.

A thief that steals from a notorious crime boss isn't neccessarily an evil man nor is his act evil

A necromancer that raises the bones of kobold isn't either.

I am sure in games characters of good or chaotic alignments have done some evil things at one point or another,wether by coersion or decision,but these acts in themselves don't define the PC's nor are acts of evil unnacceptable so long as they are performed "within context" of rpol's rules.That last statement wasn't me taking a swipe at rpol,felt compeled to say that as it may come across wrong since I'm typing to you rather than talking face to face.What I mean is as long as the DM and the player come to an understanding of how the PC necromancer will be played and RPd and that it must be done tactfuly and within the rules of rpol,then why not give it a chance? The following is from the PC creation thread.


Restricted Classes

The classes marked with an asterisk (*) above were deemed to be unusual or
difficult to play in standard RoA games. These either have non-Good alignment
restrictions (Hexblade, Dread Necromancer and Warlock), or they are simply
unusual within the context of the Forgotten Realms (Spirit Shaman).

Hexblades, Dread Necromancers and Warlocks are still bound by standard RoA rules
in standard RoA games, and may not be Evil either, thus the Hexblade and Dread
Necromancer must be Neutral (LN, NN, CN), and the Warlock must be Chaotic (CN,
CG).

Players should discuss these characters with their DMs, and plan their
behaviour accordingly - their characters should play (relatively) well with
others, and recognise that most games have Good tendencies.

It is my belief that with the proper mindset and roleplaying,a necromancer who animates the dead could "fit in" just as well if not better than the afformentioned classes.Again I'm not here to make a stink,I just honestly do believe passionately in what I'm saying and that there are like minded players perhaps who could play the Necromancer PC they've always wanted to and still add to their region and game.

Without wishing to get into the whole "Is Necromancy Evil?" debate, there are a number of separate issues to take into account when considering whether to allow a necromancer PC, no matter how well the character can be justified. Is the DM willing to work with it? Are the other players? (Keep in mind that DMs and players rotate often around here). Is there a Paladin in danger of losing his cred according to the Code? Can the Cleric freely use his Turn Undead if needed? Is it safe to be slinging around negative energy effects with living PCs nearby? And undead seen running around town are a sure-fire way to disrupt a campaign, with mobs of villagers with pitchforks and torches. And then there's the smell.

Your concerns are valid DM BadCatMan,In a prospective Necromancer's defense I would say that most of these can be avoided with a player playing "responsibly and with tact." Obviously if a player decideds to run into town with his undead Unicornasaurus in tow then that player isn't responsible or(without being mean) smart enough to play such a class.I would believe that those kind of issues would be adressed and the "quality" of the player assessed when he first talks to his DM.Some of the other issues would just make for interesting gameplay in my opinion,interesting roleplaying and combat dynamic (Your skele-troll better go hide behind those bushes or he's getting turned!)

Exactly. It's entirely possible. It's not banned. You just need to discuss the concept with your potential DM. Personally I'm open to the idea, I just don't have any spots open, or, I suspect, PCs who would agree.

I suspect the clinical researcher type might be a little too cold for most however.  Something more clearly on the side of Good would make the concept more attractive.



Unlike the undead. :D

One man's waste is another man's...soap?

When I said, "The book says it's evil; so it's evil."  I ment it. :)

That means, or at least it was my impression, that it is always and without exception evil. Unlike everything else (lies/cheating/murder/theft) which could have a potential good aspect, there is no good aspect at all with evil spells. Even if the world would be saved by casting an evil spell it would still be an evil act. Constant use of the spells would slowly move your alignement to evil.

At least that is what I got out of the long discussion.

So no necromacer that can constantly animate dead and be netrual or good.

As for your quote from the restricted class section; I find it might be a mistake....

I think they should either get rid of that section or clarify it. (I based my concept on that section too I believe)

I wrote that bit. What was the problem? I was just clarifying that those classes that are restricted from Good are still restricted from Evil in normal RoA games, so they're usually stuck in Neutral. I could have said the same about the Druid really. The rest was just because walking that Neutral line involves both Good and Evil behaviour. Just like a necromancer really.

Well the only part I find in need of clarification, based on the last ethics discussion, was the dread necromacer.

It appears that the Dread necromacer is unable to cast animate dead (or any evil necromancy spell for that matter) continually and keep their netrual alignment. The topic of rebuke undead didn't come up but could very well be the same.

An [Evil] spell might be an Evil act, but one on it's own won't shift you to an Evil alignment. Continual use might, however. Do some Good acts on the side, and you can freely walk a zig-zag line of Neutrality.

I don't think many DMs around here at all hung up on alignment. We all agree that what matters is intent and application. Play a nominally Neutral character, don't specifically set out to cause trouble, and you need not worry about alignment ever again.

I would say that it is an evil act based upon the nature of the crime.

Is it evil to steal from someone? Not really, more chaos then evil depending on the nature and intent on the crime. Theft could be for good or evil but is always chaotic.

Now think about what the reanimation process entails, and remember that in this world souls are real, gods are real, spirits are real. What you are doing is enslaving someone permanently (or at least as long as the undead is still active) without giving them any choice or decision in the process. Sure you might not be an evil character and you might have good intentions, but the point is that you are still enslaving a (formerly) sentient being. Now there's a good chance that their soul is on a different plane completely unaware on this fact. However, there is a chance that that soul is watching it's former body dance around like your personal puppet. I don't care how you spin that, that's down right evil.

Is killing an innocent child for the greater good an evil act? Yes
Is enslaving someones body without giving them any chance of freedom except through death again an evil act? Yes.

I rather agree.  The theft of somebody's body, whether they're aware of it or not, is wrong.  Stealing a copper from a rich man with millions of gold pieces is still wrong even if that rich man doesn't realize some of his money has been stolen, the same as with somebody's body only, in my opinion, stealing an actual part of a person, dead or alive, is on a level far above the thievery of money.

In extreme cases the ends can justify the means.  To save millions of people, sometimes a few have to be sacrificed.  But that isn't a day-to-day happening.  I would be most uncomfortable allowing that in one of my campaigns, but then I'm a lot more squeaming than most of the DMs here, and I don't think I'd enjoy to play in a campaign where somebody did that.  However, if a DM can be found for the concept, then I'm certainly not going to complain or anything.

I'm a Lathanderite by heart, so no raising armies of the dead in my regions, heh!  :p

You belong in the Renaissance art period. The Renaissance artists focused on equilibrium and symmetry. They used pure colors. Artists had to be experts in all areas, from anatomy to zoology. Balance and simplicity are important for you to be happy. You love to learn, and every new route you take leads to new experiences that build up your success in life. You know how to dedicate yourself, and are a great advisor among friends. You know how to act cool and calm in panicked situations. Make sure that you don't think too much of yourself though, for smarts aren't everything. Direct your talents to help others, and it is then that you will learn the most. You see clearly in complicated situations and often make the best decisions. You value health and wisdom.

Take this quiz.

Neutral Good - Benefactor: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them..Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.

Take this quiz.

You belong in the Baroque art period. Baroque art has deep and bright colors, with dramatic stories told through painting or sculpture. You are bold, dramatic, and outgoing. Life is an adventure, and you accept new challenges with an open mind and even anticipation. You are very competitive, and love the thrill of a new experience. You have a hero's heart, and people admire you for your fearlessness. You will defend your friends when they need you most. Be careful not to jump into a situation before thinking. You will be very successful in life if you continue to snatch new oppotunities as they pass you by. You have no fear of what others think or much else for that matter. You live life to its fullest. Be sure to check out the other pictures in case you don't like the Baroque style
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:11, Fri 28 Dec 2007.

True Neutral - Undecided: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.

Okay, don't shoot me.  :p  I couldn't help it.  :p  My daughters love these movies.  :p


Gabriella! You are Gabriella! Wonderful! Why don't you go pose for your naked pictures online now?

Take this quiz.

Nuh-uh, those are mine and mine alone!  :O

*giggles*

*grins*

Strange...


You belong in the Gothic period of art. When I say Gothic, i don't mean the kids who like to wear black, but rather the medieval times. You are fascinated by magic and mystique. You believe in the supernatural and the unexplained. You are open-minded and love suspense. Don't let the shadows of clouds keep you from seeing the joys in in life. Happiness isn't only for the shallow preppy people. Learn to accept others and to accept yourself. People admire you for your creativity and unique outlook on life. Your views are refreshing and inspiring. You are imaginative and often take artistic outlets to express yourself. Be sure to check out the other pictures in case you don't like medeival art.

Do you admire my unique outlook on life? Oo

Aand... I'm quite proud of this one. ^^

Neutral Good - Benefactor: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them..

Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.

(Well, that's a matter of opinion! My father believes that Neutral Evil is the best alignment, because if everything just did what was best for them, there wouldn't be any conflict...)



You are the tragedy of the survivor. You see the needs of others yet often cannot help them as your heart longs to. You have a warrior's spirit, and strive to protect those you love. Don't be afraid to let others out on their own to make decisions and live their lives. You are a great source of advise and protection for those you love. You have had to learn to overcome loss and sorrows and learn to be grateful for what you have left.


You are Hades, the lord of the dead and ruler of the nether world, which is referred to as the domain of Hades or, by transference, as Hades alone. He is the son of Cronus and Rhea. When the three sons of Cronus divided the world among each other, Hades was given the underworld, while his brothers Zeus and Poseidon took the upperworld and the sea respectively. For a while Hades ruled the underworld together with Persephone, whom he had abducted from the upperworld, but Zeus ordered him to release Persephone back into the care of her mother Demeter. However, before she left he gave her a pomegranate and when she ate of it, it bound her to the underworld forever.

Hades possesses the riches of the earth, and is thus referred to as 'the Rich One'. Possibly also because -- as Sophocles writes -- 'the gloomy Hades enriches himself with our sighs and our tears'. Of all the gods, Hades is the one who is liked the least and even the gods themselves have an aversion of him. People avoided speaking his name lest they attracted his unwanted attention. With their faces averted they sacrificed black sheep, whose blood they let drip into pits, and when they prayed to him, they would bang their hands on the ground. The narcissus and the cypress are sacred to him.


Somewhat depressing, the latter two... interesting.

Stealing is a chaotic act in d&d terms, the street thief, who steals every day of his life isn't evil, he's neutral, likely, Chaotic Neutral, but not evil. Necromancy and channelling negative ARE evil though.

It's a bit of a double-standard... since healing spells used to be Necromancy. Also, laying the dead to rest is counted as Necromancy, as are Raise Dead and Ressurection. Not to mention the watch chaplain's old standby, speak with dead (literal Necromancy!)

I played a pretty good "good" necromancer once.  Of course, I was no where near high enough level to animate dead, so we never had to get into the issue.  Yes, as it is usually used, it is an evil spell, but if say a cleric were to constantly animate objects from a junk yard, would that be considered an evil act?  The things there were just lying around, no one was using them anymore...  And a dead body is an inanimate object in its own right, so a cleric could by-the-books use animate object on a dead body and it would not be an evil act.  Why then is animating dead an evil act?  Oh right... undead are evil...
Zombies: Always Neautral Evil
Skeletons: Always Neautral Evil
Shadows: Always Chaotic Evil...
  Oh wait.  That's not right...  A shadowdancer can summon a shadow of his alignment...
  Huh...
An official MM monster that isn't "always" the alignment its stat block says it is...  So, why do skeletons and zombies always have to be evil?  They're mindless bodies that move to the creator's orders...  Seems true neutral to me.  (And a lot like office workers to me... (sorry for to those who work in a cubical...))  I've never cared for the fact that undead are (almost) always evil...  Hasn't anyone at WotC ever seen a Casper cartoon?  Or Angel?  Blade?  Seems a little racist to me... ;)

You make some good points PC Esc.Animating a corpse is no different from animating a tree,both are just organic material.Sure animating a corpse would be more controversial seeing as it used to house a spirit,but it might as well be a tree,and infact WILL be a tree rather quickly if allowed to decompose round a forest.Ashes to ashes n all that.I wonder if that makes a tree evil for consuming the corpse of a creature to further it's own growth.Or if it would then be an evil act to animate a tree if it has consumed a corpse,technicaly the corpse IS part of the tree,rearranged a bit,but still part of it.
Are flies evil for breeding their young in a corpse.Is it justifiable for them to desecrate and use a corpse for their own good simply because they aren't human?


Just trying to put forth some examples that would make people think more about the "reality"(lol) of what it is to animate a corpse.

In the spell description it says nothing about the corpse's former owner's spirit being bound,or enslaved,or affected in anyway by the animation of his husk.Animated dead have no souls,they are mindless, rotting,biological robots.

Also,I don't see how it isn't evil to steal from a man if it causes his family to go hungry and suffer.How is it not evil to cause someone emotional pain if you take something they are very attached to?You inflicted pain upon them for your own gain,wether you knew it or not.

So it's evil to animate rotting matter,but it isn't evil to cause pain to the living for your own gain.D&D is a mad mad world! ;p

I was specifically refuting the "rich man you stole a copper from" example.

Taking from someone when you know they will suffer because of it is evil, but it's the "causing suffering" part that's evil, not the stealing.

Speaking of which. . .  how come Cure-spells are Conjurations (you summon positive energy to heal someone? :p), while Inflict-spells are Necromancy?  Couldn't you just as easily summon some negative energy to harm someone, without it being necromantic?  I don't mind that healing isn't Necromancy anymore, but at least make it consistent, will you?  :p

Necromancy spells all involve infusing things with Negative Energy - you animate undead by replacing the missing positive energy with negative energy, after all. In fact, with the exception of Speak With Dead, involve negative energy.

A happy New Year to all of RoA!  :-)

Happy New Year +5 minutes ^^

Well I have been in the new year now for 1 hour and 42 min. Rockets have been blasted into oblivion and the new year cigar has been smoked. Could one expect anything else. Hope yo have had a good start on the new year. as my father said to me. A new year filled with new oppertunitys for greatness.

Happy New!

And here we see the effects of wolf having drunken his traditional new years keg.

Happy New Year!!!  :)

hey be nice. Don't alugh at the wolf. Especially seen as the keg has made the wolfs head hurt.

And this delinquent cleric has had a headache all day, likely because of a lack of said keg. ><

First year I haven't toasted the new year with alcohol in as long as I can remember (no jokes please) and I've had a royal splitter all day. ><

Don't worry, it could be worse.  I didn't have anybody to kiss when midnight rolled around.  That's a lot worse than not partying, trust me.

New year happiness all around. :D

And hopefully all had a bigger party than 3 people (when you were actually AT a "party")

...stupid guests...

(wasn't my party...)

Happy New Year everyone! =)



Was a meeting of countyvide DnD clubs, mixed with a New Year's party with some other bonuses. Well, we were like 4000+ if that counts *grins*.

Anyways, I hope you all had a good fun wherever you were, and that this year will bring you more success, happiness and joy =)

Best wishes that a man can imagine!

A belated Happy New Year.

Even if it is 2008 and we still don't have flying cars or moon-cities or the obsolescence of war. :(

Of the three I miss the moon-cities the most.

Being a Yin-Yang type person the obsolescence of war doesn't really make sense to me. Call me a bit pesimistic (sp?), but people will always fight about something.

Flying cars.... no thanks. People don't even know how to drive on the ground and at least on the ground when I get nailed I have some chance of surviving.

Moon-cities: that's cool. Come on, looking through a telescope and flipping someone off (or waving if you're to 'nice' to flip people off), just to see if they'd do the same to you. Those of you who think you wouldn't do that are just lieing to yourselves!

Back to an argument at hand.

The whole "animating a dead corpse = animating a dead tree" type logic doesn't fly in my book.

Stabbing a person and stabbing a tree are both technically living organic materials, but the presence/absence of a soul does change things.

Especially considering that with rez spells a formerly dead body could possess its soul again, thus bodies and souls are linked dead or alive. Animating a corpse is still stealing someone's body whether they're dead or not.


Also I don't think all necromancy spells are evil, just specific ones.

However, Raise Dead works on Plants... and there are such things as undead treants, though I can't remember the name of the particular monster.

It snowed here today, which is quite suprising. If I remember right it snowed here before one day in the mid 1970's. Snowing in the tropics...must be global warming. :)

Yes, not all Necromancy spells are [Evil]. Some are even [Good], such as those in the Book Of Exalted Deeds, including one that drains your own life-force to heal another.

Necromancy is more of a set of magical processes, mainly dealing with the manipulation of life energies or something. (Real pity that healing and ress spells aren't Necromancy.) In and of themselves, they are neutral and innocuous. But the uses they are put to are not. Like anything really.

By RAW, [Good] spells are Good acts, [Evil] spells are Evil acts. I see the latter as more a case of dealing with dark forces, ones that corrupt and taint those who use them.  A few uses are negligable, particularly alongside Good behaviour, but prolonged use without Good treatment sends the practitioner to the Dark Side.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:13, Sun 06 Jan 2008.

I'm going to try this one more time, since the last time I gave it a shot was in the middle of the religion debate, and many of us may have been dodging the OOC board then (I know I was).

I'm running a simple, four-color style superhero game, using the Hero System 5th edition Revised rules and the Millenium City setting.  If that sounds like something that might interest you, send an RTJ at link to "Millenium Heroes - Champions 5e".

That reminds me of the principals of the dark side of the force. Look at Episode III. Crazy as it is, Anakin is a very stupid, gullible good guy. He starts along the dark path to save his family, but the dark side corrupts. Slowly but surely it is corrupting so that anyone who puts any significant amount of time into it (i.e. a full-time necromancer raising undead armies) has to be tainted by it in some way. Maybe it's slow at the start, maybe the change too subtle to notice at first, but it does change you. Skin starts to pale and I imagine it warps ones perspective about life and death. If the dead are nothing more then tools to be used, is it so far an extension to think of the living as tools to use as well? Or will you be that worried about saving your companions if you're so used to just raising the undead to you. Who can say how the change will happen but evil is corrupting and there is no greater evil then the corruption of a good soul.

And Now For Something Completely Different;

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/magic/playmagic/whatcolorareyou.asp">
<IMG src="http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isblue.jpg"></a>

<IMG src="http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg"></a>

Me too, hon.  :)  Speaking of which, how are you doing, anyway?  Safely back at work from the holidays or still in Alta?

<IMG src="http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg">

Well, if I wasn't already, and I was, now I know I'm in excellent company.  :)

Ah with you and Hackdoc as the colour White I know that I'm in good company.

I have gotten back to Bergen and work. It's nice to wokr again. Not long now until I get my journeymans papers. Not long indeed. How are you and the children.

I guess it was obvious long before now I like the Rules of Law.  :) Plus RPoL is our community and we have lasted so long ... all good signs I think.

Hmmmmm.

Huh. Fancy that...


This message was last edited by the GM at 02:07, Tue 08 Jan 2008.

*chuckles* Looks like I'm in a different set of good company. :-)

Yes, but I wouldn't say that any of you are treacherous and cold in the very least.  :p  Better be good though or else Doc, Wolf, and I will lay the smack-down.  *giggles*

So, what does this mean? All DMs are White (lawful, protective, domineering tyrants) or Blue (wise, all-knowing, cold-hearted tricksters)?

Yeah, that sounds about right. :)

Wait, are you saying I'm domineering!?  :o

*giggles lots*

Not surprising at all ;-)

I see the image didn't display properly... I got red!



EDIT: Fixed it for you. :)

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.wizards.com/magic/i.../whatcolorareyou.asp]Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/URL][/CENTER]
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:27, Tue 08 Jan 2008.

We'd have to ask Annihilator. :p



Yep, that sounds like a PC. :D

LOL! Point taken!

Has anybody seen/heard from DM Kindred recently?

He tried to call me last week or the week before, I can't remember which.  I didn't catch it in time, though.  If he doesn't show up soon, please let me know and I'll try giving him a call.

I was looking at the DM and their regions thread and space for PCs thread and I noticed that neither had been updated since mid november? what is the current information?

As far as I am aware, there are no changes.  I know of no openings currently, nor of any new regions accepting players.  I'll make a quick mention of this for you in the DM's Lounge so that they're aware you're checking into it.

Thanks, Lady Phoenix.

I took Kara Tur off the list of regions looking for players.

Kindred said he was busy with work over the holiday period, and will only be able to check in occasionally. He should be back to normal service sometime soon, I hope.

So, Lady Phoenix, why were you looking at DMs and regions anyway?  Looking for a spot for a new character?

OK thanks I will keep checking in.

Why are we not surprised, dear?  :p  I think that we should probably just spilt up the tests, you taking half and me taking half because we always seem to get the same thing.  :)  *giggles*

Yeah, maybe we should. :)

<IMG src="http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isblue.jpg">

Hmm...

<IMG src="http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isgreen.jpg">

Huh, I figured I would get Blue but I guess I have a side of me I didn't even know about.


edit: That reminds me that when I played magic I had a decent Blue/Green/White deck, the three colors that suit my personality :D
This message was last edited by the player at 02:26, Thu 10 Jan 2008.

My best deck was a burn that had nothing but lands and instants.  Never failed to tick everybody off.  :p

I also had a white life-giving deck.  I usually had about 100 life by the time I killed everybody else.  And my angel deck was pretty awesome, too.  As was my dragon deck.  And my green decks with trample, and my elf deck, and my elf life-giving deck.  :p  I had a great time with all of those.  :p  My megrim deck was awesome, too.  :p

I have a white/blue deck; life + flying. :D  And my cards are eighth edition Magic cards...any idea how much has changed?

Favorite cards = Glorious Anthem and Urza's Armor! :)
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:47, Thu 10 Jan 2008.

I have a great red deck based around the card Insurrection. http://www.wizards.com/magic/a...sp?name=insurrection  First time I played it was in a 7-8 person 2 team game...  The look on everyone's faces when I played Insurrection and killed off our opponents was priceless...  :D

Sweet. :)

Wow, I stopped playing around 5th ed when you could still know what every card was :D

I played every colour, and most combos, at one time or another.  *sigh*  But then the person I played with moved away.

A had a bunch of decks but my favorites were my Zombie deck, Sliver deck, Red goblin deck, and was making a angle/vampire combo deck when I got out of it.

All in all fun; but it started to get to the point of whoever spent the most always won. Think of it as a Cold War and I was the Soveits (sp). :(

*goes into panic mode*  My ex is possibly going to take the kids this weekend for the first time, and Anni will be out of town, away from internet access completely.  How in the world am I going to keep myself busy all weekend to not worry?  :(

Don't worry, WW, you've still got us!

Of course, I dunno if that's comforting to you or not, but still, it's worth a try.

That will help some, but unless there's be somebody available almost 24 hours, that won't alleviate the problem enough, unfortunately.

h but you forget that everybody is in different time zones. There will almost always be someone online.

Exactly!  Thank you, Wolf! :)

No problem Kitty.

Always look on the bright side of life. Funny saying that I can't help but remember that song.

Stay on the sunny side, always on the sunny side, stay on the sunny side of life! :D

Well now I can't get that song out of my head. Aaaaahhhhhhhh

Now where did i but those monthy python movies.

Neither can I, ya big meanie! *pouts*

Well so far he hasn't called back thankfully, to finalize plans.  He wants to stay either with me or with my parents since he 'can't afford a hotel.'  I wonder how he can afford to drive 10+ hours each way and come at all since he also apparently 'can't afford' to pay the child support he's months behind on.

Oh well.  I'm hoping he doesn't show on some levels, but my oldest overheard him and I talking, so she knows he was trying to come and she will be very disappointed.  Not that it would be the first time.  If he doesn't, I'll just shower the kids with lots of attention like I always do when he or his parents disappoint the kids by making plans and then not following through with them.

If he does come, though, I'll be pounding on everybody's doors, most likely.  :p

Have a good weekend, whatever ends up happening.  *hugs WW*

Sorry Kitty. that was not my intention. Well at least we are two who got it on our minds. Just remember those killer rabbits. Make sure you got your holy hand grenade close by. That goes for you to WW. Never know when a killer rabbit will attack you.

Well, the Realms are screwed:

http://www.wizards.com/default...x=dnd/drfe/20080111a

I should let you know that we DMs are in favour of sticking with the current world and 3.5 rules. We've worked too hard and too long on the current Realms Of Adventure to throw it all away for this mess.

Uh, boss, that link requires a log in.

Yeah, there's no other way around it. If you're already on the WotC boards, use your email and password. Or you'll need to get one.

I guess WotC doesn't like people casually perusing their products.

Nah, it's just part of their whole Digital Initiative...  They want people to get used to reading the articles so they'll start paying once they start that up.  But at least for now its free.

As for the Realms, from what I've heard, there are some major things happening, and I'm all for keeping with 3.5 and current era.  Especially since they've said that converting will not be easy, and they recommend starting fresh with new chars.  All our characters would probably have to be scrapped.  Maybe someone will start a new ROA 4.0 when it comes out.  I for one won't be switching my table-top game anytime soon.  I'm just about to start a new campaign in 3.5 and if this one lasts as long as the last one did, it'll be a couple more years before we even consider switching editions.

Here I finally begin to get a real handle on FR, not to mention 3.5, and they want me to change.  :p  I'm not liking what I'm reading whatsoever.  I don't think I'll switch from 3.5 for a very, very long time.  What's broke gets fixed, what's doesn't can be fixed with house rules.  No need to buy a whole new set of books or learn new geography/heroes/places/etc.

And thankfully there's still no news from my ex, by the way.  So very thankfully...

Ya got that right. :p

So basically they're going to scrap everything that makes the Realms the Realms and start with absolute garbage, just keeping enough names to make newbies THINK they're playing in the Realms.

That bites.

WW, I'll keep you and your kids in my prayers.

FYI WW, don't you dare let him get behind on those child checks. If you let it slide now, then if you ever do need the support money and try and take it to courts, it'll look bad that you let it slide for months and then "suddenly" decided it was a problem. Also start documenting conversations, saving e-mails etc. I hate to say it but this world is can be a terrible place. It might seem fine now but things change very quickly and if you don't take proper preparations you can be caught with your proverbial pants down and things go from bad to worse.

My mom who's taking care of my grandmother just wrote me today to let me know that it turns out that the nursing home and pharmaceutical company have been scamming the majority of their patients (and medicare) by constantly reordering new medications. The sunday nursing staff to pass the time would just reorder everyone's medications (despite having closet after closet full of unused medicine). My grandmother now has about 12 months worth of calcium pills, among other things. PLUS they're still filling and billing orders for dead patients, then returning the excess medication but not actually refunding any of the accounts so the conclusion is that they are overbilling people, and then taking that medication and selling it again for even more profit.

SO if you know of someone in a nursing home, especially if you're taking care of someone you have to keep close track of their medications and DO NOT let the nursing home fill it and refill it automatically. That is where our medicare money is going, to scam artists who are abusing the system and effectively picking every one of our pockets. Isn't life fun :D

I've already reported him and done everything that I can, reporting that he got himself fired and moved to another state.  I even gave them his address where he's living now with his parents.  Unfortunately that's all that I can legally do as of now.  In Missouri, there is an agency set up just to enforce court-ordered child support and even child support as set up by divorce decrees.  They're currently trying to establish his address in Kentucky, and then they will work with Kentucky to garnish his wages.  But he doesn't have a job, and as far as any of us can tell, he isn't looking for one either.  Instead he's working under the table for his dad so he can stay there and have spending money without having to help pay for the kids at all.  Once he gets so far behind, it will become a felony.  But he can't pay child support from jail so that really won't help me any.

Just as a small example, my girls want to go to cheerleading camp at $25/piece plus $10/each for the t-shirts.  They want to do it so desperately, but since Joshua's been sick all week and I haven't been able to work, I can't even pay my bills let alone let them do the cheerleading camp.  But if he sent his child support this month, then I could pay the bills and for the girls to go.  And baseball season is coming up again soon, that's about $50/kid, and all three of them play.  I'm going to have to go sell plasma or something about six times just so they can do that.  :(  I'm sorry to gripe.  I'm incredibly blessed that I have the children, and I'm not complaining at all about that.  I just with that I could provide them a better life and not have to worry about paying the bills, buying their clothes and shoes, paying for their medicines, etc., and so on...

But as usual, I thank all of you for your support.  It is especially helpful to know that I have people behind me and rooting for me.

---

The nursing home Gramma is in hasn't done any of that that we know about.  But they did accidently give her the wrong medicine once, almost killing her.  It took months for her to recover from that.  They don't clean properly, but when they are confronted with cleaning practices that are required for nursing homes/hospitals/etc., they say that those practices are wrong.  Well, since my momma works for one of the best hospitals in the country, we know what is supposed to be done.  We take gramma's clothes and bedding and things home to watch them, and at least one of us is there with her almost all day every day.  We clean her bathroom after the nursing home staff does a terrible job of it, and we wash her water bottle since they won't for so long that mold will grow on the lid.  So yes...if you have family in the nursing home, make sure that you take care of them or else something terrible might happen.

Hmm. Oddly enough, being nineteen-nearly-twenty, I can't join that site because they're not accepting registrations my age group. Oo

That's an odd age group not to accept...

Hi all DM's.

I'm offering the half-drow Quinlan Fairfellow for adventuring. I can promise a near obsessive posting rate and activity, and a healthy dose of panache :-)

I can see all spots are full, but these things tend to change quickly, so if you have room for an acrobat, please send me a note!

WW do you have a paypal account? On another forum one of our beloved leaders ran into a bit of a crunch where he couldn't pay his rent so we convinced him to post his paypal account and everyone pitched in about 5 bucks or so and in the end we raised over $2,000. Now I'm not saying you need the money or that you're willing to accept charity, but I'm sure if things went from bad to worse I bet there's more then a few kind souls who'd willingly hand over a couple e-dollars to get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, the kind you get from helping kind people :D

*blushes lots*  Wow.  That you would even think of me in such a manner means so very, very much.  I am so very touched.  *wipes away tears*  Just...wow.  I'm speechless.

If I didn't know just how much she could need the money, there's no way I'd be giving this out without WW's permission, but she really could use every spare dollar out there at this point.  I'll be wiring her all the savings we have left, that were supposed to go to getting me over there, but right now, she needs it all, and then some.

For anyone who'd like to help out, and every little bit would help a lot here, here's her PayPal-account:
007kristi@gmail.com

Anybody know what happened to DM Kremti

he last posted in 29th December.

Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.  Wow.  Somebody...one of you...please let me know who...wow.  Wow, wow, wow!  My daughters are bouncing off the walls, screaming their happy little heads off in the other room thanks to you.  I was really sad that Anni put that up, but if you could only hear how happy they are, well, I guess my embarrassment is worth it.  Thank you.  Thank you, thank you, thank you!  *cries lots*

*can't stop crying*  I'll see if DM Kremti mentioned anything about an absence in the DM's Lounge.  *goes off still crying to hug the girls again*

Elerndale, I haven't seen Kremti in a couple of weeks, and I can't find any away messages.  The last post I see from him on any board was on 12/31.

I've tossed him an email privately to see if he's ok.  I'll let you know if I find anything out.

Congratulations, Windwalker!

Well at least somebody had a good day. I just got back from a 4 hour trip for a 30 minute interview. 2 hours there, they talk to me for half an hour and say "sorry, not what we're looking for."

congrats WW, enjoy it while it lasts.

Elerndale, I just got a mail back from Kremti.  He's a bit overwhelmed with real life and is trying to get himself straightened out.

He doesn't sound sure when/if he'll be back, but he knows he's missed and that people are looking for him.

I am looking to see if any GMs are looking to accept a transfer from another region. I have a gold elf fighter 1/wizard 5 (evocation specialist) looking to become Eldrich Knight.

I noticed that the games open showed no regions with room but also that the list had not been updated in two weeks.

Are there anymore opportunities for DM's in ROA??

Absolutely!  Send a PM to both DMs Annihilator and BadCatMan.  They will talk to you a bit and get you all set up appropriately.  :)  Feel free to ask any questions you might have, too.  And always know you can ask me as well, I'd be more than happy to help.

That's right. Just PM us (both of us), and tell us everything you think we ought to know about you, and any questions you have. Then we can get to talking. I find that is the best path.

*giggles*  I love it when I do or say something right.  :p

Has anyone else been having trouble with RPOL being slow or freezing and dropping connection between pages lately?

For about the last three days, I've been fighting with it acting very strange.  I'm back to copying all of my posts to a text file before I try posting them, because it'll freeze and crash when I hit post.

I've tried it on a couple of computers and gotten similar results, and I've cleared and tweaked everything I know to speed the connection, but no luck.  Am I cursed?  Or is there a real problem somewhere?

I've had trouble getting RPoL to load in the mornings for the last three days in the mornings (like an hour before now). And I'm on a high-powered university internet connection, so it aint you or me.

This is a fairly irregularly regular problem with RPoL I've noticed for the last few years. I just wait for it to pass and net-surf somewhere else until it does.

I agree, but I have seen the problem happen at all times of the day.

Yes it does seem to have been happening more often this past week.

I didn't notice it until you guys started talking about it...  gee thanks... ;)

Maybe it's gone past now.  It's behaving so far today.

As long as we don't have another Great Crash... *knock wood*

Don't say that!

Oh, that's okay then.

Don't worry, I'm sure it's just around the corner...

Anyone? Anyone at all? Please?

Silver Marches
Anauroch / Evereska
Savage Species
Tethyr
Evermeet
Savage Frontier
Calimshan
The Shaar / Great Rift
Border Kingdoms - high level region
Impiltur
Terrors Of The Underdark (Drow)
One-Shots & Orphanage - a holding region for spare PCs
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:24, Sun 10 Feb 2008.

I thought Impiltur was taken by a new DM

I'll check.

I might be interested in running something in the Savage Frontier.  Would value some more info.  Been a while since my last GMship in FR

Thank you, Servious.  :)  I'm going to shoot you a PM in just a sec with some few questions from DMs BadCatMan and Annihilator - standard procedure.  :)

On a completely different note, I'm happy to hear that Anonymous is still protesting Scientology around the world.

http://www.news.com.au/technol...9467-5014239,00.html

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/11/2022207

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_...d/london/7237862.stm


**WARNING: THE FOLLOWING LINK IS TO A 4CHAN WEBSITE. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO OFFEND**
But they have the best source of information on the Scientology protests. Be forewarned that the 4Chan Wiki (Encylopedia Dramatica) has articles that contains some of the worst pictures and articles in existence. This page is safe except for the language used, but if you start clicking on hyperlinks, be prepared for the worst.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/PROJECT_CHANOLOGY

Yes it's nice they keep it going. They had a protest in Norway I believe. Didn't even know that Scientology was in Norway:(

I especially liked watching XenuTV.

This is in response to earlier cat pictures. That's right, the "original"



<IMG src="http://www.textually.org/picturephoning/archives/archives/images/set2/i-can-has-cheezburger.jpg">
This message was last edited by the player at 22:28, Sat 16 Feb 2008.

DM Windwalker's kids spilled water on her computer, so she might be out of touch for a little bit.  :p

Has anyone heard from DM Kindred since Xmas?

http://www.startribune.com/ent...ent/tv/16218352.html

http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/...forum=trolllordgames

It is kind of eerie that this great man, the father of the game we all love, the Great GM himself, has died on what many gamers call GM's Day.  Gary Gygax will be greatly missed.  :(

Gary Gygax- July 27, 1938 – March 4, 2008

May he rest in peace.

I hereby present him with the Twenty-one Die Salute!

Roll! *6,7,7,6,5,3,20*
Roll! *8,16,5,7,10,2,15*
Roll! *4,7,4,13,9,20,9*

Even made it to "the big news" network:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/0....gygax.ap/index.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html

A link a friend posted in his blog, and then on my prompting, in CC - this sounds so much like Gary to me, that I wonder if he wrote it!

Read the most recent news post there as well.

Here's the link to that:
http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#AmQKTxMeXozCUZHVw0L

I'm surprised at how saddened I was as I read them both (the panel and the blog)....

I guess he failed his save vs death effect...

I've never met him, read any of his works, and I've heard all about the Tomb Of Horrors, but "Thanks, Mr Gygax."

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/03/04
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:30, Thu 06 Mar 2008.

My thoughts and prayers are with his family, friends, and all of us geeks who mourn his passing.

There were two nice and one somewhat flippant (in my opinion) pieces on NPR (National Public Radio) the last two days.

They are all easily found on the search engine therein.

In Honor of Mr. Gygax, I rolled and wrote them down in order:

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 11
INT  5
WIS  8
CHA 10

Wait!  Wait!  "OLD SCHOOL" Rolls should be posted in the "OLD SCHOOL" ORDER! (yeah, baby!) None of this 3.5 logical grouping crapohlah! ;-)

STR 10
INT 10
WIS 11
DEX  5
CON  8
CHA 10

There we go!

Ahhhh, the Basic and First Edition Days---when Heroes were definitely MADE through adventure since they were rarely BORN with great talent!

He's no longer ill nor old... he's moved on. That's all we really need to remember. He's happier, or at least more content.

I've paged through my copy of "Keep on the borderlands" and looked dreamily at my Basic edition D&D rulebook; a simpler time when being an elf wasn't just a race but class as well (and what a class! Even with the level cap of 10).

My dearest friends, I would like to welcome you to a day in life of WW with her kidlets...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9d1NjqolPu0

And then, what I used to live with and many, many women still do...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LtNGFh-dCe0

Well we seem to have lost DM Kindred so us player In the North are stranded. Any DMs available to take over or any slots available elsewhere?

Sadly, I have to agree.  Neither Kindred or DC have responded to any of my text messages, nor prompts in msn to Kindred in January.  I don't think there are too many openings right now, but I'll have a talk with the head DMs (BCM and Anni) and everybody in the lounge and see what we can't figure out for you guys.  I'll keep you updated.

Thanks WW.

Looks like Raven might be able to take us over there in The North, but we'd likely transfer to RoA 5 where she DMs another region very close to that region (Sword Coast North).

Well that would be great.

I'm working on it now, then.  :)

Does any body have link to PHB II Beguiler.

I don't have money for book but would like know what it does.

They've got full spontaneous intelligence-based spellcasting in light armour, their spell list is identical to their spells known list, they have wizard base attack, can find traps as a Rogue, get 6 skill points/level, and have a kind of Arcane Sneak Attack (their spells get DC and anti-resistance bonusses against flat-footed enemies).

On the other hand, their spell list isn't great. They get Advanced LEarning every four levels or so, but only for Wizard/Sorcerer spells from Enchantment or Illusion. They don't get any damaging spells as far as I know, but they excel at crowd control and in social situations.

Sure it is - any spell list that gives you Glibness is a great spell-list as far as I'm concerned.  :p  They also have a decent selection of utility spells and buffs, such as Dispel Magic, Haste, True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, and Breack Enchantment, and so can fairly easily serve as the primary spellcaster of most groups.


Not quite right - they get Whelm, Whelming Burst, and Inevitable Defeat just to name a few, that deals nonlethal damage if the subject fails a Will Save, leading up to Overwhelm (a sixth-level spell) that, on a failed save, deals enough nonlethal damage to knock any target out.  And, at the end of their spell list, you've got the Power Word spells, from Blind to Kill, all of which makes great combat-spells.  Sure, they're not Warmages or Evokers, but you're going to have some decent ability in combat, still - the only exception would be when fighting undead and/or mindless creatures, who are immune to almost everything you throw at them.  :p

Beguilers can be a very good balancing for a party that does have an evoker. It gives a non-combat options. Although I am really becoming enamored nonlethal substitution for metamagic feat.

Just so you know.  The game is Dungone game and could be soloing most of the time.
So I thought a Druid/Beguiler would cover traps and pet for fighting.
Notice Mage armor as one of spells.  Place that on your wolf.


If someone got PHB II and time could just post what first 3 level are like.
I have most of detail it skills gain and spell cast per day I am really missing.

Actually, it's all typed up here already - check the bottom of this post:
link to a message in "RoA: OOC Forum"

Hey there.  It has been quite some time since I played on RoA.  However, I am presently shopping around for a game in which to run an expatriate Deep Imaskari wizard, and there seems to be a real dirth of Forgotten Realms games these days around the site.  The point being: is there a list of what regions/DMs are curently accepting new players?

Yep, it is here: link to a message in "RoA: OOC Forum"

Labeled Available space for PCs.

I doubt you will be lucky with an deep imaskari except in a few bubble regions that might be willing to accept. Good luck hunting.

I would like to create a 20th level interesting tank, min/maxing not required.  Difficulty: I've not much experience with higher levels.  More Difficulty: game starts at 1st (no ECL, etc) and I'm looking for a target.

I wouldn't tend to think so myself: Any Deep Imaskari outside of their name-sake city is,almost literally by definition, an itinerant wanderer and outcast with no particular short-term obligations, loyalties, or goals of any kind beyond exploring the world.  It has always seemed to me to be somewhat the perfect adventuring background in that way - you can come up with a reason (or at least a passable excuse) for them to be almost anywhere imaginable.  At any rate I suppose we'll see.  Thank you very much for the link.

We only allow the standard races for common-use in RoA games, as seen in the PC Creation thread. This allows for a good baseline of what every DM can work with, without going overboard with funky races.

But some DMs can allow in their games certain special races that suit the setting without anyone batting an eyelid. There's an Orc in Chessenta, a Koroboku (?) in Kara-Tur, and a Duergar in Underdark (yours truly) and some others. These are Bubble characters, who can't transfer to other regions.

Deep Imaskari used to be allowed in Underdark (in fact, they're still mentioned as such in the PC Creation thread). Underdark is back in business now, under DM Quicksilver, and doesn't have a primary wizard, so if you're really interested, you could make inquiries.

well isn't that just weak.  I ahve actually decided to apply to what looks like a limited-term adventure, and reasonably entertaining, that was listed in the wanted section.  I suppose form there we will see what GMs I can convince to accept him.  The underdark is nifty (in a deadly and treacherous sort of way), but I notice that /that/ game is /not/ listed at the Link which Raven supplied.

Just in case you guys weren't busy in your day to day life, here's a great way to kill time and laugh a bunch!
http://www.contemporaryinsanit...l-men-of-genius.html

Enjoy:)

There was even a greensnake shinomen naga in Kara Tur when I picked it up, but we've since lost her to real life issues.

I keep trying to send a PM, as I'm interested in filling the rogue slot open in DM Jim;'s game, but for some reason I get something that says "Partial Read Error" when I try to send said PM.

Does it keep happening in the same time-frame? Try it on different days; RPoL has busy periods that screw things up. If it keeps happening, you should contact the RPoL people. That's not something I've ever seen before.

I was getting that yesterday as well. I even tried the Fix Access link on the GM menu. I was hoping it was a fluke and would be cleared up by today.

In the meantime, you can send me an rMail, or we can just talk about it here, if you like.

This sounds like one of the problems only jase can fix; if it isn't cleared up by today the GM (preferably) should rMail jase about it.

I have the same problem.

Every time I attempt to send or respond to a rpviate message, the attempt fails, and displays the following: "Error! Partial database read detected! (592 records read)"

Hmm. Is it only occurring here in the RoA: OOC board, or on other RoA boards as well?

I'll send an rMail to jase and co, I just thought I should gather a little more info first. In my experience, it tends to help things along if more is known.

Aha! Just got it myself while testing some PMs.

"Error! Partial database read detected! (592 records read)"

Okay, can a random selection of people here please try to send me a PM, and post here if it fails?

Thanks.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:36, Sat 17 May 2008.

Error!
Error! Partial database read detected! (592 records read)

Error!
Error! Partial database read detected! (592 records read)

Obviously there is no way we can know for certain whether this problem is occuring or not in every game hosted on this website, but as for me, I have not experienced it in any of the other games that I participate in.

This is an issue that comes up periodically within a game, sort of like the 'there are no messages in this game' one.  I'm not sure what causes it, or even whether jase knows what does.

Okay, I'll contact the authorities. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone who responded to my orphaned player check PM. But please remember to answer the questions asked. It'd be really helpful.

Ah, there's a thread on this subject:
link to a message in "Technical Discussions"
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:12, Sun 18 May 2008.

Hello everyone, long time no chat.

Just a little update, my bubble game for Cormyr is currently on 6-months and going strong, with quite a bit of success on the part of RoA's WW.

Currently slots are full but if one opens up I'll let you know. As it's not technically affiliated with RoA I get to bend all sorts of rules as a GM (insert evil grin) but as a token of appreciation to the RoA community, all of you get first dibs into the game. That Deep Imaskari caught my attention so if nobody picks you up, I might be able to fit you into the the game. It would actually serve as a pretty useful plot device on my end, I have a few ideas about how to work an Underdark creature into the campaign. For planning purposes the party is currently ECL 3.

Anyway, I hope to resume being a part of the RoA chat for the next couple of weeks before making a big move to Chicago for my new job (hurray).
This message was last edited by the player at 05:47, Tue 20 May 2008.

*blushes*  I haven't done anything, you're a great DM, and I'm really enjoying the game.  Especially being the only girl!  :p  *giggles*

Now don't go all icky on me and start rooting for the Cubs, okay?  :p

Hi there. The grand jase is having a look at the PMs problem here. However, currently, every single PM ever sent by anyone in RoA for the last 4 years is now addressed solely to me. Huh.

I recommend if you need to get to in touch with anyone here, try it in another RoA, by rMail, or here in OOC. Until the problem is fixed.

Do we have some sort of chart for average travel time from point A to point B in Faerun? I looked around here in the OOC Forum and couldn't locate it. I think I must have overlooked it.

We keep that in the Lounge.  If you want to give me the starting and ending points, I can calculate the travel time for you.

How do you calculate the travel times? I might be using those services very soon once the Cormyr party leaves Suzail.

I'll rMail it to you in two shakes (to save the space here in the OOC).

Sweet! Thanks WW

Welcome.  :)

Okay, the PM situation should be fixed now, and everyone should have their PMs back.

And I've gained nearly 4 years of old deleted PMs. Clean up time for me.

Great I got PMs from 2003 on ... who knew they were so many.

I know how much everyone here likes taking personality quizes, so here's one dealing with colors.

http://www.truecolorstest.com/...ersonality-Test.html

I'm very strong green, for the record.

11  8  12  19

6  19  13  12

13 14 13 10

13 5 12 20

Like I said, very very strong green with no yellow to hold me back!

18  9  14  9

Me?  A performer?  I have no idea what they're talking about.

*goes back to singing along with her iPod at full volume*  :p

Just in case y'all wanna know what I'm currently performing, even though I'm not a guy - it's just so darned funny!  Watch all of it:  http://youtube.com/watch?v=7GcVnhNjWV0
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:58, Mon 02 June 2008.

Whoho

This video is not available in your country.

Well I came out

11 10 16 11

Some time a go some kind person pointed to a program I could down load to make simple dungeons for free.

This was some time back and my hard drive die - I lost program.
Anybody know where can pick up free program that give me basic dungeons items and walls.

Lousy YouTube.  :|

That's just...weird...  Search for "Online" by "Brad Paisley" then.  It's hilarious!

My true colours were

10 17 11 12

Just for the record, I was an orange 22.  I guess that means I am an obnoxious, center of attention kinda guy who doesn't take no as the first or only answer.  :P Lowest for me was a yellow.  It was a 7.

Having said that, I did a brief gander around and I didn't see any space that could stock up on an old school, straight forward, stab-it-in-the-face-with-my-sword warriors.  Harumph.

*giggles*  Do you do any real performing?  I actually am a performer, though not as much as I used to, I suppose.  I'm a musician and have done some acting as well, plus I teach which is a whole lot of performing right there to get and keep some kids' interest.  :p

I'm a writer for fun.  I used to wrestle, and I'm always the center of attention when I go out with a group.

Me too, though usually I'm not terribly fond of that as everybody wants me to make suggestions and decisions.  I'm not very comfortable with that.  :p

Ah.  I prefer making decisions.  Maybe that's why I am a 22 orange, huh?

I dunno, I hate it when nobody can decide what to do...so when that happens, I try to be the one deciding because at least they won't be "dumb" decisions.  You know... the ones that that one person in the group always tries to make...  When everybody wants to go to an Haibachi grill, "The Todd" doesn't like rice and insists that everyone goes to Waffle House instead.  :P

*giggles*  I don't mind making suggestions too much, but I hate making decisions because I'm so afraid I'll offend somebody.  :p  Besides, usually I suggest the same places to eat anyway, or the same things to do.  I'm very passionate about what I like, after all.  :p

Just a question, are there any plans on upgrading to dnd 4th ed.?

I've answered in the new 4th edition thread, where everyone should talk about 4e. That way folks can carry on chatting here about other topics.

We can only hope not.  Heh.  There's already too much stuff in the books.  I can say with a certain degree of tact that I will not be buying new DnD books anytime soon.

Anyway, quick question. How do you score a 22 when there is a maximum of 20 points?

edit:
Quick cheap plug, my nWoD campaign needs two mages. If you play M:tA check it out and mention that you're from RPoL and I'll give you priority. I've found that RPoL players tend to be a good step more reliable then the majority of the RPoL masses.

link to "(nWoD) Chicago: Blood Moon Rising (Mortals)"
This message was last edited by the player at 03:04, Thu 05 June 2008.

Will any game take a Lawful Good, Longsword wielding fighter?

I just got a new kitty, and she's adorable.






She can yawn pretty big for an itty bitty kitty.


She literally fits in the palm of your hand.

Awww!

I want a kitty so bad.

But sadly they make me cough and hack and wheeze.

I want a dog. But still a nice cat you got. It's quite small. How old is she.

For our swedish players here (I know there's at least two of you! :p), good luck against Russia tonight - I'll be at work until after midnight, so unfortunately I won't get to watch the match.  :-(  Anyway - go Sweden!  :D

Well, I guess if I can't root for Norway, I might as well root for Sweden, too.  :p  Go Sweden!  :)

Thank you! Considering that the winner gets to play against Holland in the quarter finals... not much chance in advancement after that. The Dutch look unbeatable this year.

Well, at least you won't have to get beat by the Dutch, anyway.  :p  I was able to listen to it on the radio, and it sounds like Russia deserved the win, too.

And, my feet are burning, after standing up straight at work for about eight hours or so.  PCs in my regions, expect me to be away until Sunday, when I get my first day off, and DMs with my characters in your regions, feel free to NPC them until then, as well.

It was a terrible game, but at the same time a fitting end to a lackluster performance.

The fact the Russians and Croats look pretty handy almost makes me feel slightly better about them qualifying at England's expense. Almost.

Any GM got space for 4 level druid / sorcerer?

Depends, can we have some more information than that? Background, race, environment (in my case)?

His is of elvish (wild elf)background.  He serves Rillifane RallathilHe.
He left his homeland on some hair brained quest to find distance dryad.

His animal pet is wolf and his familiar is owl.
He also has horse.  So he very wilderness animal based.

What kind of druid?

Forest based, desert based...water based? Doesn't sound water based but one can hope...GRINS

Forest based.

Well up date to my character.

The Bloodstone Lands: (remaned of The Cold Lands)

Has two players left (Me and fighter half drow).

Anybody want take over as GM or GM want look into this pls.  Both me and other player usually post 2-3 time week.  It could do with few players as well if someone looking for new home for character.

I'd give DM Rockchucker a bit more time.  He last posted less than a month ago, and while that is less than what we'd like to see on RoA whenever possible, that doesn't mean he's out for the count yet, especially when considering the news her relayed to you in the OOC recently.  That's a life-changing event and constant struggle, so give him another chance.  If he doesn't logon soon, then we'll talk.

You're such a peacemaker WW :) BTW, I'm playing the Half-drow Dragon Shaman that is also awaiting some activity in the cold lands. It's not that I'm looking to dis Rockchucker but we've been off and on with DM's in that region for a while and I just want my character to actually get a couple of levels at some point. I'm patient though I guess.