Your belief here is confused. I would have said argument, but you said that they're not arguments, they're beliefs. You say that "as for every religion, Christianity...", but then you identify Christianity as being unique over the same subject.

Bhuddism has some of the stricted rules on behaviour of any religion, but at its core, it has one basic tenet: Be the purest you can be.

Christianity has many rules and regulations attached to it! The ten commandments may be old testament, but they're still in the bible. As are many of the laws in Corinthians - like "don't eat shellfish". My partener is Free Church Christian, and she believes that the Bible is a book of guidelines to behaviour (as opposed to Windwalker's Baptist friends, who believe that it's a book of prophesies). If Christianity is a religion without restrictions, how can its holy book be a guide to life?

On another note, finals are coming up/already arrived for many of us college studnets. Good luck and happy holidays to all.

Yea, I was trying to hurry and mis stated that. I meant that other religions have performance structures, while Christianty does not.



Did you mean Strictest rather and stricted (I'll asssume you did) But you can't achieve this higher level without performance. You're only as pure/holy as you can demonstrate.



Okay, I can get into this one. Christianty isn't about rules. It has alot about what you can do to have a better life. The old testament did have alot of rules. But after Jesus's ressurection, these rules lost alot of their power. I believe they are simply a guideline to show you why you need Jesus. Because no man on earth can live by all these rules and achieve rightesness. If any man could that would be the same as calling Jesus a liar. "For no one comes to the Father except through Me.." Another way it's stated is that after Jesus' death and rebirth that man does not live by the law (old testament) anymore. In the new testament, especially Paul's letters to Romans, He talks about being weak in the flesh, yet strong in the spirit. Also about how we should try to live right, but realize that it is impossible to live perfect and after the day is over and you fought your battles and lost where you lost and won where you've won, you still aren't worthy to be in God's presence. That's where Jesus takes over and pays your bill.

It's interesting to note that ALL of the "heroes" in the bible committed horrible sins. They are pointed out, I believe, to show specifically that no one is perfect. Look at King David. A man after God's own heart. He lusted after another man's wife then had that man put to death by sending him to the front lines. Look at Moses, he killed a man in his early days and he was argueably the strongest leader in the bible and he even got to see God's glory. "ALL have sinned and fell short"

As for my denomination, I don't have one. I believe in the Word. My theology is baptist based, but really I study my bible and come to my own beliefs. As for other denominations, I'm not that well versed in them to debate their aspects.




The idea, I believe, is that by accepting Christ as your personal savior you invite the Holy Spirit into your heart. You therefore become more aware of when you are sinning. It doesn't stop you from doing it, but it convicts you to repent when you do. And you will, because even the most devote Christians are still flesh and still have the sin DNA in their blood and will still fail. When I got saved I had an awareness I'd never noticed before. It's unbelieveable how much you can sin in one day. The biggest ones I fail on are gossip, lusting, and anger. But since that day in Jan of 2005, I can honestly say I am doing better. I have quit lying, and what I'm talking about are little white lies. I really didn't lie on a grand scale before, but I would embellish my stories to the point that they became lies. I am convicted when I see a beautiful woman and I have those thoughts. You can argue it's man's nature, but really it's sin's nature rearing it's head. But I have the Spirit within me pointing out these things to me. And you know what, I'm thankful for it. Because before I had it, I was ignorant of myself. I believe that by becoming saved you become God's partner on earth. Other non-believers will look at you and examine you. And you should try to shine and be a light to the lost that they may be come to the light. And to shine isn't just to preach to someone, it's to try to live your life as best you can according to the bible. To live by example and show those around you what peace and happiness is truely.

I have a question: What do you consider as having an abundant life? How does your religion relate to this?

If you'd like I would share my testimony with you and you can draw what you will from it. It's pretty graphic and I'll not submit it in public, but I will share it with anyone in private. I'm not ashamed of it, it brought me to God, so how can I be. Without those actions, I might be lost. I owe those events my very life.

JT, you and I should definately talk!  I have the same thoughts about religion, the personal relationship with Christ, etc.  I go to a Baptist church now, but I attended an Assemblies of God church for years before that, a Nazarene before that, and have spent a lot of time in the old Church of Christ churches and in Jehovah's Witnesses 'meetings.'  My testimony is also a bit graphic in nature and nothing I could just shout out to the world, but I'd be willing to share privately to those truly interested for more than just knowing bad things and gossipping and stuff.

Pretty much everything you just said is what I had planned on saying, so I won't reiterate it.

Let me just throw a little something into the mix.

<rant>
I know many Christians who talk about how Christianity is the most free religion, that it doesn't have rules (beyond the believe in Jesus part) or that it doesn't have strict guidelines and codes and rituals etc. etc.

Now here's some food for thought: Most Christian religions are a buffet, in my mind. They pick and choose what they believe and don't believe out of the Old and New Testament, they choose and disregard this or that or the other. "This is a guideline" "This is a metaphor" "This is just space filler."

But it's hard to compare that kind of stance against other religions. Other religions are much more focused, much more unified. Christianity is very diluted across the countless different subbranches.

You say that Christianity doesn't have rules and rituals, but what about Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? Catholics? They're a part of Christianity, whether you want them to be or not. So you could say that parts of Christianity are free and open, but remember that there are an equal number that aren't.

If you're going to defend a religion I say you have to defend it as a whole, not just picking and choosing the best parts and brushing the rest under the rugs.
</rant>

I typed this up yesterday, but it got lost in rpol's post-vaccum:

Before this goes on, I would like to clarify my own personal views. I am somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, I don't really fit the perfect description of either. I believe that, if something is true, that logical examination of the facts will lead to the truthful conclusion. I am a big fan of the scientific method. I find no evidence supporting any god, and a little detracting from the possibility of a god similar to humans. Reasoned theory leaves a pathway that does not require any god, and is plausible (ask me where the big bang came from, and I'll ask you where god came from, the answers will be similar).

Thus, because there is no evidence supporting a god, I cannot believe, it is simply who I am. However, I do not discount the possibility.

From the assumption that there is no god, and, similarly, no supernatural, I conclude that human beings are flesh and blood, no soul, no eternity. When my heart stops beating, oxygen will stop flowing to my brain, my cognitive functions will cease, and I will cease to exist. This is somewhat depressing, but I have gotten over it.

The question that arises now, is why? Is there any purpose in living at all? Before I answer that, I would like to answer a related question. What is the difference between a human being and an animal? Effectively nothing, both are made of atoms and molecules, both "live" by the definition of life. Excepting one thing, a human being asks the question "why?" This question is what can give life purpose and is the foundation for religion.

"Why?" allows us to create our own purpose, our own points of view, and our own morals. I make my purpose to enjoy my life and those of my fellow men, and I find it in reason. Others find their purpose in religion, and that is equally valid. We both live a fulfilling life, and that is what matters.

Now, the question of morality, I am a moral relativist, a nihilist by the denotation, though not the connotation, of the word, as you have likely inferred. Everyone's purpose, and thus morals, is different. And similarly, those who have not found a purpose tend not to have not yet found morals. And those who have found a purpose opposite to mine have morals opposite to mine. I can oppose and fight them while still accepting that their purposes are valid. It is inherent in my own purpose to oppose them.

My morals are startlingly similar to the morals of a religious person. I believe in the value of human life as much as a religious person (and more than some, to quote a crusader: "Kill them all. God will know his own."). I value courtesy and kindness. While I believe that these are evolved morals, implanted on the human psyche by the monumental advantage that civilization gives to a species, I do not care. They are what I believe is the right thing to do.

My morals are quite similar to a person of religion, and so is my life. I share the same flaws of humanity, and an almost identical purpose, except a believer's include a bit about God and a holy book.

I thus conclude that it does not matter if God exists. I would act almost the same. If god would deny heaven on the basis of religion, I'd rather burn in hell with Gandhi, Saladin, or Mother Theresa, depending on who turned out wrong.

So, Praguepride, you're saying that everyone who wishes to defend a religion should take a fundamentalist view towards that religion? Interesting. But if you say that Mormons, etc, are all forms of Christian, you may as well say that all Christians are a form of Jew, and all Jews are a form of Muslim - which is accepted not to be true, and many people would take offense to the suggestion that it is.

Jack - What you've just described as your attitude towards religion pretty much places you squarely in the middle of the Free Church denomination. Even if you don't associate yourself with other FC members, if anyone asks what denomination you are, that seems like a good answer if you want to claim a group. It's all good, I like FC. ^^ They're the most reasonable Christians I've ever encountered. ;)

Of course, I'm curious about your story, but one thing I do know is that enlightenment is unique to everyone, whatever the similarities in their stories. That testimony is the grounding point of your religion, and I don't think it's possible for anyone who hasn't had a revelation like that to be a true believer. My own enlightenment certainly isn't anything dramatic or interesting, basically involving two visits to the site of a world war 2 massacre. During the first, I could feel the death in the air. The place - call it a genius loci, or a kami, or whatever you like - was heavy with suffering and grief. I went back there two years later, when the small memorial had turned into what was basically a tourist-trap mockery of a graveyard, and that heaviness was gone. The burdened spirit had moved on or been displaced, and a new, apparently commercially-minded one had taken its place. That's the starting point of my developing faith... the actual everything coming together to form the mish-mash of beliefs and ideals that I now follow developed more slowly after that, but those two visits opened my eyes.

To your question, though, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by an 'abundant' life. If you mean a full, fullfilling one, then the one I have now almost fits the bill. I spend my time looking after my disabled partner - half carer, half servant. The only thing that I think is missing is that I'm limited to looking after her... There are other people, some of whome suffer more than she does, but I can't do anything to help them. Even if I thought it would help, I don't have any money to throw at charities, and I lack the skills or time to help them myself. So I guess if you ask what makes my life full and content, then it's helping others, either understand, or have fun, or just be happy.

One thing I find interesting is that the deadly sins(—anger, covetousness, envy, gluttony, lust, pride, and sloth) is some of the parts that drive man. Take envy. Who has not envyed someone. May it be for the wealth someone has or the amount of close friends that someone has it's still envy. So why take and write that those are deadly sins when they are so much of not only humans, but also animals. A Lion can be full of pride and lust. it's natures way to drive us forward, very much like the carrot dangeling in front of the mule drawing the cart.

I know that has nothing to do with what we actually spoke about, but it involved religion.

Also I must say that I find it somewhat strange and so many ways confusing why the Christians and Muslim still fight on. Also Jews and Muslims and really all religions fight so much. To be honest some of the religions have the same spawn point(so to speak). The Jews believe in god, but not in Jesus. Christians believe in God and Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus, Moses and all the other people in Christianity and Jewish believe is really prophets, but that simply greedy people or other people trying to drive it to their view corrupted the message spoken by god. So in some sense why fight against each other when you all believe in the same god.

Me and a friends has talked much about this over the years. It's insain how much infighting there has really been over the years. Now I know that I'm going to get a lot of trouble for this and should properly not say this. I think that religion was a fine instrument(sorry to all of you who believe. This is just my point of view) to keep people in behaving well. But it has caused so much chaos and destruction, not to mention deaths. In some sense religion is the worst disaster that we have had in some sense.

Now to explain why I do not believe and why I can say these things.

If really there is a god. Then why let his creations destroy each other when both are on his side only choosing different paths to him. Also people are happy to say that all the chaos hat man has done is to free will. The bible contradict itself sometimes. He created us and the world. he then as a gift gave Free will to all creatures. But answer me then. if he is all powerful and all knowing then should he not have foreseen the events that are happening. Should he not intervene. Think about it. We are close to destroy this creation of his. Even tough it's only a small part of the creation he has maid why let it tear itself apart. Why has he not intervened to stop wars, famine, the natural disasters, the cruelty and senseless violence that has been created.

Ask yourself. If you actually meet god what would you do. And then again if he said tell me one thing you would have taken away from the earth. What would you destroy.

Personally I would feel a lot of hate and anger towards him. What I would have removed from the earth is religion.

Rather then add an opinion I have a question for DM Wolf.

If you remove religion, what prevents the average person from doing all those immoral things that are still legal (prostitution, lying, cheating on a husband/wife/other, betrayal, ect...)? Basically, I'm asking what would be the new source of morality if not religion?

If your answer is a legal system and its laws, I would point out that plenty of people have been killed due to different belief in governmental issues.

Disclaimor:

This is not a question due to my disagreement with DM Wolf, as I'm not entirely sure I disagree. Nor is this a statement of opinion of any sort.

Okay this one is easy to me. Christianty is universal. It is made for man. Now think about this. How diverse is man? How many different cultures are out there? Don't you think God in his perfect wisdom and perfect love would want a way to potentally reach them all? As for the Word, I believe it is all true and all important. However I believe it has a progression. After all it is a total history of mankind. The Old Testament was given to the people to prove to them that they couldn't be righteous by themselves. Sure the Pharasis tried to do it and they lived it day and night, but they STILL fell short. However the New Testament changed the Old Testament. It no longer was there for people to try to strive for. It was just a guideline to show you where you failed. Also in the Old Testament there are a lot of prophesis. Really it (the bible) is all that. Books of Law (Gensis to Deuteronomy) The History of the Kings (Joshua to 2nd Chronicles) The Prophets (Ezra to Job; Isaiah to Malachi) The Gospels (Matthew to John) More History (Acts) The Letters (which are meant to inspire, IMO) And then more Prophecy (Revelations) I think that the groups that usually only pick and chose what they want to follow are most always label with a specific denomination. Thats why I'm a Christian. I read the whole Word and then I go with what I've learned.



I assume this isn't directed at me personally, but rather toward the stereotypical Christian, or at least what mainstream media would label as such.

The different denominations that you listed all have one thing in common. Know what it is? They are products of man. Not the bible. Christianty, IMO, in it's purest form has next to nothing to do with rituals, rules, etc.. It only has to do with Christ. (hence the name) It has nothing to do with what you have done, but rather what was done for you. Now all these different sects can argue their points. Catholics seem to be all about the Father and creating a beautiful church with beautiful rituals, Jehovah's Witnesses want to add to the bible, they all do something and claim it's what the bible means. I say the bible is what it is. History and Hope. You don't add to it, you don't take away from it. I also think that you don't pick a single aspect of the Godhead and put it on a pedistal higher than the other two. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all equally important.

The rest of your message I will respect as you intended it to be. However I would like to point out something here.

God does not DENY heaven on the basis of religion. He denies heaven to sin. I am cleared (in God's eyes) of my sin by Jesus's sacrifice and my faith in this sacifice. Therefore the ultimate reward of rebirth from death and eternal life in paradise (heaven on earth) is opened to me and I can fall forward into my Father's loving arms.

Here is my view on groups. I don't claim them. I don't feel I need an association. I am happy just being a Christian.



That is admirable. Not quite what I was looking for, but I understand what you say. As to what is the abundant life? For me it is simply living like a child. I have no regrets, I have no alterior motives, I put my trust in my Father God, and my faith in my Savior Jesus. I am at peace with my life. I have no worries about it. I am concerned about my daughter and other things, but I know that as a child of God, it really isn't important what I feel. It's gonna happen according to God's design. Who am I to question Him? Being a father myself has amplified this. I know how much I love my daughter, and I can only imagine how much God, the Perfect Father, loves me. My love for my daughter is like a candle flame is to the sun, compared to his love for me. Who am I to question his works? I just lie back and try to shine for His Glory and grow the Kingdom. And that is simply living right and being willing to spread the gosple whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I saw a poster at work that read something like this:

This is your pilot God. You have no need to worry about anything I am in total control. Sit Back, Relax, and Have a Great Day.

Thats what I call the abundant life.

In my view, all religions are equally valid. You can tell me all you want, but you cannot show me. A muslim would say: "God does not DENY heaven on the basis of religion. He denies heaven to sin. The sin of ascribing his word to false prophets" I'm not familiar enough with Jewish customs, but I'm sure they have a similar view.

How can you show me that your religion is the unsinful one? You tell me that I must have faith. Why faith in christ? Why not Allah? There is no reason that you can give me to prove your religion that does not lie on the assumption that your religion is true.

I am somewhat disappointed that you didn't adress the rest of my views, challenges to them are what make them either stronger or more correct. Anylizing disagreement and revising is an important part of my views.

I believe that it would not be much different then today. With the falling numbers of true believers and the increasing rate of what you might call half believers(people who have questions about there fate, In doubt about the existence of a god.) The way I see it we are and will always be a pack animal. We gathered before for strength in numbers like the wolfs do. We are all ruled by our own set of values. Now seen as we are pack animal sure there would be all sorts of bad things(lying, betrayal, cheating. A few countries are still allowing prostitution) as it is today, but without any exception no matter if you have a religion present or not those things are going to exist(it's human nature) What would cause our new morals would be the idea for the greater good. What is generally good for the pack will be good for you. After how I see it that is the idea that many has even if they see it or not. It's what is at the core of most religions, but instead of giving credit to God I give it to human nature that has developed for endless years. Those who did not participate actively and had some use in the group would most likely be an outcast and that human would perish most likely. Now seen as it was like that for many many generations it has had a effect that even tough people not always know why or even notice it they will help. Why because it's a basic instinct developed by many generations of where it was a necessary for survival.

I'm DEFINITELY staying out of this discussion.  I've seen too many rational, intelligent discussions on this subject turn into flame wars that wreck happy, pleasant groups.  It's looking civil and rational so far.  Best of luck on it staying that way.

On the other hand, I DO have a completley off topic question / invitation, and this seems like the most appropriate place for it.

I'm trying to start up a simple, four-color comics superhero game using the Champions 5 rules.  I have a friend who likes supers and wanted to play, and I could never get it to run as a pbem game, so I thought I'd try it here.

I'm looking for three or four players.  I'm willing to help out with character generation if you're not familiar with the rules or the setting.  The one player I have so far is running a power armor type, but just about any other hero type is welcome.

There's not much there yet, since I'm using a published setting.  Just guidelines that will help with chargen if you know the rules.

The game's at link to "Millenium Heroes - Champions 5e"

I don't have a religion. I have my own personal beliefs. If I did have one I don't think I'd consider it sinful. The membership maybe but not the doctrine as long as it's based on the Word. If it comes from the Word then it isn't sinful. If man has added to or taken away, or taken it out of context, then it could be considered sinful.

Asfor proving my religion, I have no interest in that. That would cheapen my faith. (sounds like a comp-out huh?)

Let me ask you this. Do you believe in Nero? (Roman Ceasar at the high point of the roman empire) How about Alexander the Great? Cyrus the Great? How about King Tut? Do you believe that these people existed?

HMMM, I dunno. I might go back and look at the post with that in mind. I don't feel it is that important (not to down play your beliefs) I think you are set in your beliefs as I am in mine. I only hope that if you are going to make a decsion like that, that you look at Christianty before dismissing out of hand. I mean to me you are no less than throwing your life away.

I think he did. And I think he is interceeding on behalf of his believers and mankind in general. Look back at post #21 for my reasoning on this.. I'll quote myself also. Also consider this. He has forseen that this earth will melt away like snow. He has a plan and it is even described in Revelations. This earth isn't the ending. It is the begining of the final stage. The eternal era. I think of the current earth as the thresher to render the wheat that will be planted forever in the next world. And God WILL dwell with man, not in heaven from afar, but with man, hand in hand, on the ground. In a perfect world. It's what he has been working for this whole time (from my understanding of the Word) He wants the true believers to be tested. He wants only those who choose to Love Him to come to Him. He wants to have a intimate and earthly relationship with man. I think He knows that it can never happen on this earth. that it must be "reset" to cleanse it of sin. God cannot be in the presence of sin.





When I meet God that stuff won't matter. All that will matter is being there with Him. It's not for me to judge (Thank God) what should stay or not. I think it will be a new world. I also think that when I meet God there will be no question as to worshipping him. It will complete me. It's what I was made to do.

As for hatred and anger, those things won't exist. They will be wiped from every heart. Religion will be a thing of the past. It will only be the way. The way it is supposed to be. There won't be a label on anyone. It won't matter what you look like, what you did in the old world, what you believe. Your faith and beliefs will be a no brainer. You will see God and you won't even wonder why you ever thought otherwise. You will be reborn.

Anyway, all I ask is that you look into it before throwing away your life jsut because of some bad expierence you had with religion. I'll say it again, the best arguement against Christianity is Christians. The point is to realized this and decide on what your heart is telling you. The bible says to ask and you will get an answer, knock and it will be opened to you.

Here is a movie to watch that inspires me, maybe it can give you a little insight:
Kingdom of Heaven

Well, the first part of my Tae Kwon Do grading is tonight, in a scant few hours. Korean terminology (I now know more than I need, which is good) and 100 push-ups and sit-ups (I can do rather less than that, but I can get away with it).

I feared an argument would erupt, but this conversation is going well. Thank you to all involved, it's been enlightening.

My take on religion and faith is this: I'm a Doctor Who fan. I enjoy the tales of his adventures, I agree with the philosophy put forth in them, and try to live my life according to it.

That sounds basically like any serious religion, faith or philosophical outlook. It shares the most important components: a core philosophy illustrated by a body of lore and tales, that an adherent uses as a model for their life. It might be fictional, but has about as much factual basis as any other, with as much solid evidence.

Now, I don't think everyone should follow Doctor Who, it's not for everyone.  And I don't begrudge fans of Forgotten Realms or Star Trek for their choices, everyone has different views on life. I actually have a fair bit of respect and interest in the other fandoms. Also, I don't take every story as gospel, or get too upset if I don't like it; they're only made by imperfect people with different opinions than me.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:43, Wed 12 Dec 2007.

As for the film I have seen it and like it. A good movie.

Now if God really exists and tis is all i trial I would say this is no god that I want to follow. A god that will allow children to starve to death and kill in foul ways. For what, to test us. I just can't understand why one would do such a cruel and senseless thing. Okey if it's a trial a test if you will, but why cause so much suffering. Why rob people of there children before they are even born. Why watch them suffer in pain because there is no food. As for hatred and anger it will always be a part of man unless you remove all feelings. For what is love if you never experience the other. Anger, hatred are not good emotions, but they do sweet up the moment when you feel love and happiness. A man that can just sit and watch those who serve him suffer for many years. That is something I can not believe in.

Yes, though I wouldn't use that term, there are many records showing their existence, and in some cases a body in a tomb connected to them. I cannot be certain, but the evidence seems to show that they did.

However, to preempt the point I assume you would make. There is evidence to support the existence of Jesus. I conclude that there is a reasonable chance that he existed, and perhaps was a great man and leader. I merely see no evidence that he was divinely inspired.



The point being here that religion is unprovable. You can believe, but so can everyone else, differently. Almost every single argument that can be given for christianity can be given for the other major religions with minor modification.



I am not very set in my beliefs. The basic tenets of logic and reason are quite set, but the rest changes every day with every new observation and experience. The more my belifs change, the more set the basic foundations become, as changing my beliefs to account for new information is the foundations in action. Religious beliefs cannot change without distorting their foundation. I have looked at christianity, and many other religions.

(It seems to me that this particular discussion is reaching the end of it's useful lifetime, where it goes from "enlightening" to "veiled insults", so don't feel indulted if I drop out of it in a few days.)
This message was last edited by the GM at 10:06, Wed 12 Dec 2007.

JT - I find this a little ironic, so I hope you'll forgive me for being amused when you say that the best part of your religion is that you put all the responsibility on God and sit back and have a nice day, knowing that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you belive Christ will forgive you... considering that your main question about my faith was 'what makes it worth doing anything then?'

I couldn't live a life where no-one needed me because everything would be fine after death. I suppose that's why I can't live with heaven-and-hell Christians.

How's this for a discussion point... my Fiance is a FC Christian. One of the teachings she has chosen to interpret as the work of man intead of God is the idea of hell - she's a Christian who doesn't believe in Hell as a place-of-eternal-damnation. Instead, she believes that souls will be recyled on earth until they accept that the path to Heaven is through Jesus - so looking at it another way, 'Hell' is just another word for 'Earth', and the only reason she claims not to believe in Hell is because she doesn't mean quite the same thing by the term. What's your opinion on this? And of you, I mean.

Well, I did 65 push-ups, as much as I can and expected to do. I could only managed 48 sit-ups, which was much less than I liked. :(

But I did great with the terminology. Named everything except for the one move that wasn't in our notes and manual. The rest was easy. In fact, I was disappointed they didn't ask me something harder. :)

Next: patterns, one-steps, boards and tiles, and being beaten to a pulp. Hurrah!

Hehe, good luck ^^. And I'm sure you won't get too badly injured, it's only an exam. :p (famous last words...)

were these pushups all rapidfire?

I can do about 15 or so in pretty quick succession, but then I have to stop for about five seconds between doing that.

I tried to do them as fast as I could, which wasn't all that much. Doing them fast means you spend less time putting all your weight on your arms, so I found I could do more that way.