We sure like to talk don't we. A new tread how exciting. Oh yes.

firstest post!

Yay!

*sigh* What did I start here...


Once again, let's start from the top.

Correction: non-Christians no longer honor Saint Valentine's beheading.  Christians still do.  Just for the heck of it, I'd tell you his story, cuz it's a really cool story, but I don't have time.  If you know the story, you know how people got the love, mushy cards, chocolate, and 'be my valentine' stuff out of it.

As for the buttload of holidays in December, you're right.  There are a lot.  Most of them saints' days, actually.  If you want to push that point further, then why not just say 'Happy Winter', for goodness' sake!

I'm not gonna get into that other thing you mentioned, as I'd not know completely what I'm talking about.  Plus, two could go on for days on that subject...


Oh?  Why say you that?  God should have first place in everything.  Including schoolwork.

And if they're not gonna follow that, they should at least not teach that rubbish scientists who wanted to prove us wrong made up called evolution.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:35, Fri 07 Dec 2007.

Unsupported claims alert, though that seems to be the mainstay of the creationist movement.

This is a touchy subject, so I think I will leave my immaturity at that.

Evolution was not made to discredit christianity and religion, Charle Darwin was a very christian person, he set out expecting to find proof of a literal interpretation of the bible, but found, through logical speculation, otherwise.

What exactly do you object to about evolution?

A religion and evolution discussion. :)

I'm just going to be a bystander for this one as someone always manages to get angry during these things.


Just a side question before I bow out: Is the "God made Evolution" a commonly held belief or is that just me and a few of my friends?

By "God made Evolution" I mean the following:
Everything science says about evolution is correct and the "Big Bang" was simply God (or other Super Being) making it happen.

I was never taught this, and quite frankly am rather unsure where I picked it up or if I just came up with it.

I'm just going to stick my head in and say a few things. For one, keep this discussion polite and reasonable, you know the drill.

Speaking as a scientist, I've seen some pretty amazing concepts that hold life and the universe together. The slow, incremental evolution of life from the simplest forms to ourselves, the self-organizational properties of many systems, the structure of matter, atoms and subatomic particles, the cosmic dance of stars and planets and galaxies, to the birth of the universe itself. All these things arise from the simplest, most basic physical laws, coming together in the most astoundingly elegant ways. It truly is beautiful.

So if I did choose to believe in a creating entity - a god or something else - behind all this, then it would be abundantly clear to me that all these physical laws are the very tools that that god used to put the universe together. And by knowing and understanding these tools, one can get closer to that god and understand it and it's creation better.

A far more wondrous god to me is one who can create all that we see and know with  just the simplest of physical laws, one who can set off a Big Bang and sit back and let all of existence unfold on its own, rather than one who is endlessly micromanaging his own creation.

Because that would be a flawed creation. Intelligent Design implies that the god did something wrong, and had to interfere. If that god is truly omniscient and omnipotent and perfect, then the creation would not be flawed, there'd be need to micromanage, life and the universe would not need fixing and adjusting. An omnipotent, omniscient and perfect god would create evolution, just as we see it.

And the god meant us to see it. This god has allowed us to evolve from the simplest of lifeforms through an incredibly long period of time, through a vast range of circumstances, each one imparting us with a new feature. We have evolved to become intelligent, free-thinking beings, full of curiousity and the need to explore and understand. We can do no less than to understand this world around us.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:06, Sat 08 Dec 2007.

Well I'm not a believer and I'm sure going to hell if there is one. Now with that said I do believe in evolution. It seems the logical thing. Now the problem I see with religion is that to many misuse the religion. Like the pope did for many years . Like when the Crusade started. Also The way Islam is misused today by the so called believers like Osama Bin Laden and his group of terrorists. Now the problem with religion in school is that it's learned to children that God exists. And tat s if there parents believes in it or not. And children are easy to make believe. Also many children would have the idea that. Hey my teachers say that god exist and created me. Why would they lie. After all they are here to teach me.

Look at the hatred and misunderstandings that exists because countries force things into schools. Like some anti west countries learn children that the west is evil and only tries to control the land. Children are easy to manipulate and also easy to misunderstand things.  therefor I think that religion has no place in state or school.

Also on another note. I have one things to say.,

1. Many who say that they are religious is the way I have seen it by my own experience is not real believers. Just people who do it just because it's tradition or "just to be on the safe side"

Growing up in a Christian family in the 80s/90s, we were told that both Heavy Metal and Dungeons and Dragons were Satanic.

Well hope that is wrong. If it's not then I'm surely going to hell.

I must say that I have read the satanic bible. It contradict itself often. Like You shall not make human sacrifices, but if you are going do one anyway then it should be a powerful enemy. It was in other words full of crap.

Granted, I'm only a teacher and learning more and more about science is only a hobby of mine, but I find that more and more science and archeological proof is found to support God and Jesus.  Nowhere in the Bible, a document full of prophesies that did and still continue to come true, does it say that evolution was not a part of this world.  I believe that it is.  I believe in survival of the fittest.  It makes sense, perfect sense to me that it is a very real part of our amazing world.

And Christianity in schools?  Why not in the USA where our very country was founded on it?  We sought freedom of religion to be sure, but every document, every slogan, every creed, every idea was based in Christianity.  The separation of church and state that we have is to ensure that the government will never enforce a religion or sanctions or whatnot on the citizens of this country, not to keep God out of our daily lives or force Christians to not be able to live with the same freedoms that non-Christians receive.

Children in this country are not ever forced to participate in any activity that is against their and/or their parent's religion.  Some (like Jehovah's Witnesses) do not even say our Pledge of Allegience to the flag or sing our national anthem or anything.  Students would not have to hear anything their parents didn't want them to.  But it isn't right to say that a Christian student can't pray if he or she doesn't want to.  One person's right to pray doesn't infringe on anybody's right to freedom of religion, but forcing a Christian to not pray if they want to does infringe on that person's right.  Why are non-Christians treated better than Christians and not exactly the same?

Anyway, my community is about 80% Christian, 19% agnostic or aetheist, and 1% Catholic.  So yep, I say "Merry Christmas," and am proud of it.  If somebody doesn't celebrate Christmas, then what harm did that really cause?  I celebrate Christmas, most everybody I know and loves celebrates Christmas.  I've spent 30 years saying that.  Why should I be forced to say something that I disagree with just to not step on somebody's toes?  Christmas, to me, is all about Christ.  To me, taking Christ out of Christmas by saying Happy Holidays is against everything I believe in for He is why I celebrate the season.  Making me and other Christians go against our beliefs is just as wrong, if not more so, than us accidentally saying Merry Christmas to somebody who doesn't celebrate Christmas.  Do any of us want to offend anybody else?  No, of course not.  But wouldn't we be hypocrites if we just went around saying Happy Holidays to appease complainers instead of proclaiming Christ by wishing Merry Christmas?  As far as I can see, that would be very, very wrong of me.

Thoughts?  Did I make any sense?  :p  Sorry, I'm still not really feeling all that well yet.  :p

I don't object to anyone praying quietly to themselves in school, and that is not prohibited. The preferred pastime during the moments of silence is prayer. Nor do I object to Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, some people just prefer the more PC version. Some people take PC too far, but not many. Most of the anger is over retailers afraid to mention christmas for fear of offending minority customers.

I do take offense that christians create this false sense of prosecution. There is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. By definition, an atheist/agnostic doesn't care about other's religions unless it is messing with their life. Christians have such a monumental majority in this country that it would be impossible to persecute them.

But it's mainly not the reasonable ones such as you that I take issue with.

I am amused that you don't include Catholics with Christians in your percentages, as they are certainly part of christianity. Perhaps you meant "Protestants" and "Pagan Scum". :P



PS: Here's a rather exausive explaination of the platorm for evolution:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

I would like to add a reason personally, science uses theories to explain things so that they can be used constructively, evolution theory has contributed greatly to our understanding of genetics. It is hard to believe that "Intelligent" Design would have possible uses, even if true, because we cannot reproduce it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:31, Sat 08 Dec 2007.

Actually, praying quietly in schools, student-led prayer or bringing your Bible is prohibited in some schools.  And far too often people are bringing more lawsuits to get it banned in more schools.

I do not know any Christians that "create this false sense of prosecution."  (I think you're meaning persecution?)  That I am all too often told that I should adapt my behaviors and speech to those who are not Christian, that I am not allowed to follow my faith because it's not politically correct, that I have actually been accosted and spit on, yes real slobber and everything, is not a false sense of anything.  By a lot of people, I am not treated the same way others are.  That's life.  It's not fair, but it's the way things are.  When some people find out I'm a Christian, they actually roll their eyes or start arguing with me when I've not said anything objectionable or start ignoring me or simply stop being friendly and getting to know me.  If that isn't at least mild persecution, I don't know what is.  I should get the same rights that everybody else does.  They get freedom of religion to believe whatever they want, say whatever they want, why don't I get the same thing?  I might not agree when somebody says that God doesn't exist.  I might try to discuss the issue with them, say my point of view, see what the other person thinks.  But I do not roll my eyes or tell them that they can't say that because I'm a Christian and don't want to hear nor have to listen to it.  I do my darnedest to treat all people equally and with kindness and respect.

Yes, Christians are in the majority in the USA.  But the squeaky wheel (the ACLU, for one) gets the grease.  While we might not get completely persecuted politically, while we might not ever be run out of the country or the like, we do sometimes (and sometimes it's often) have to deal with persecution.

I didn't include Catholics in those percentages because they are the only religion we have that isn't pretty much Baptist or Assembly of God.  In a town not far from here we do have some Jehovah's Witnesses.  And we have a few very small Church of Christ churches, but they probably wouldn't even get a half percent.  It's nothing against Catholics since I count many of them dear friends of mine.  I am sorry that didn't make sense.  In fact, the Assembly of God church couldn't really get even half a percentage either.  Pretty much we're mostly Baptist, Southern Baptist, or Free-Will Baptist.  There aren't any Jewish people that I am aware of.  Very few black people, and none of them celebrate Kwanzaa unless they just keep that very, very private.  That's really about it.

I figured as much about the catholics, but I I felt like prodding you.

Wow, if people are immature to that degree about religion, my usual conclusion is that they aren't worth the trouble (though there's the few that feel that strongly that can agree to disagree and I can be friends with without those discussions). I guess I've blocked most of that sort of people out of my life.

On the School issue, we have a FCA, fellowship of christian athletes(I think it started that way, now all are invited) which has prayer happening every thursday and they have some big events, but not in class. I think the objection is to audible prayer in class, where other students have to listen. While I don't personally care, I think some people do.

I don't believe God intended for us to understand everything. He created the world as a place for his most prized possessions, us, to enjoy and inhabit. He is a God of secrets and gave man the drive to try to unlock secrets and He must delight when one of his secrets is dicovered and another of His truths is proven.



If you love something do you sit on the sidelines and watch it from afar? Or do you try to interact with it? What if by sitting on the sidelines, you see your most prized possesion destroying itself? Can you love like that? Man was made in the image of God and therefore has his qualities, although sin and the fall has corrupted them, they are still reflections of God's love and character. I believe God desires to be intimate to every human on the earth, but he desires even more for every human to desire to be intimate and love him.




God's original creation was perfect. Disobedance and the fall flawed it. I believe God works to save as many humans as can be saved before sin finally tears this world apart. Jesus was sent as the great rescuer, to allow a way for man to achieve righteousness, even if it is indirect, and therefore allow man to enter into the presence of the Lord.




Well here is were the science community dropped the ball. We evolve. However we didn't start in some organic soup. We were formed in God's image. Science's biggest problem is (in this respect) is that it is biased. Biased against the super natural. Some things aren't meant to be understood. That is the whole beauty of faith. Faith that even if it doesn't seem possible, knowing that it is. If science could prove that God exists with formula and examinations, where is the glory in winning over man by fact. It is much better to win man's heart through faith, and immeasurably more valuable. I mean if everyone could just meet God there would be no question about loving Him. The love would be "cheaper" for lack of a better word. But Love that is given in faith alone, is truely priceless.


Anyway, these are my personal beliefs. I have only been saved for about 2 years, but I can honestly say I am more contented now than at any time in my life. Imagine a life without any regret. Then look at me. If anyone wants to discuss it, I welcome the opportunity to talk/email/whatever to tell you about it or answer any question you have. PM me. It's truely the way to live.

The best arguement against Christianity has always been Christians. You know why, because we are a flawed people living in a flawed world and noone is perfect. Everyone is tempted by something.

I myself try not to be religious. I am more interested in relationship. I think that if you really want to be a good christian, at least as good as your flesh and this world will allow, then you are gonna fail, but it's more important about how you handle this failure rather than about the fact that you failed. Do you turn to God? Do you curse yourself? Do you repent?

Oh goody, a polite, well reasoned, and well spoken proponent from the opposite side. These conversations allways seem to be the most illuminating and informative.



It is man's nature to attempt to understand everything. It is why the average american, briton, and resident of many other countries lives better than a midevil king. If they are truly god's truths, then inevitably they will be proven right, and falsehoods will be proven wrong.



A perfect creation is one that will not disobey nor fall. An Omniscent god must have known that it would would disobey and fall. This is quite scary.



I would rather have the admiration of men, than that of sheep. It is my personal opinion that the admiration of a reasoned person who has examined all the facts, and come to the conclusion that I exist and am someone to be admired than someone who believes because their parents told them to believe and fear, or they would be damned for eternity. Your argument also works reasonably well for every religion in existance, why yours?

Science, by definiton, is the examination of the natural, what we can recreate and use. There is no purpose in including the supernatural in science, because it is, by definition unrecreatable. Or, if it is, do you really wish man to attempt to use god? Science doesn't tell us what to believe, many scientists accept evolution and still believe god created the earth. Science takes the facts, and create theories that offer the most useful expaination. Through extensive testing and verification, most of these are ruled out, even longstanding ones. The current set of un-ruled out theories is science, the closest to truth we have been(science almost never backtracks). This is how we come to understand the world. If evolution is false, it will be thrown out.

Do you have a MSN IM Jacktucker(or even yahoo or AIM)? I would be interested in continuing this conversation in real(er) time.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:46, Sun 09 Dec 2007.

I've never seen why there is a problem reconciling creationism and evolution; at some point there was that extra something that made men more (and sometimes in our imperfections, less) than the beasts.  Where did that 'spark' come from if not from God?

Also the concept of free will - if you were all-powerful, would you want worship from blind faith, with no choice, no intelligence to realize there are other possibilities?  That would be a pretty empty worship.  Once we were given the choice of whether to follow God or to go our own way, of course some made the wrong choices.  And the different churches/religions - if God had meant us all to worship in exactly the same way, would S/he have made us in such variety?  I've never trusted any church or sect that says their way is the only way and that the rest of us are going to hell.

That's a good bit of why I'm agnostic. I have never had much argument about religion with anyone who believed in letting everyone worship their own way, including nonbelief. Though those groups tend to also let science and government operate by themselves without overt religious influence.

My personal opinion is that morals, as well as worship, are cheapened by blind obedience. I have arrived at the conclusion that it is better to be courteous and kind to fellow people myself, and my morals are stronger for it. If a god would reject me for deriving my own beliefs, I would not wish to be accepted by him.

Why not? We have living organisms that range from organic molecules to viruses to cells to multi-cellular creatures. We see the molecules in the viruses, and the viruses and in the cells, the cells clustered together. The connections and relations are apparent. We can chart the course of evolution from these to more complex creatures. Basic chemistry and simple physical principles can account for an awful lot of growth, especially in a few billion years.

We can even create the chemicals of life in the lab, from basic components. The wrong chirality perhaps, but close.



Heh. Now I can't help but think of God as a great chimp in the sky. :D

Now this is where I disagree... well, lots of places, actually. Lets start with the ascertation that there are no fundamentalist atheists.

Atheists believe, to the hilt, that there is no God. There's no namby-pambying around, to an Atheist (A - not, Theist - a merger of 'God' and 'Follower'), there is no God. There are no Souls. There is simply our present existance. Therefore, Atheists are as liable to be "Fundamentalists" (By which I believe you mean 'Intolerant evangelists', which isn't really what a Fundamentalist is) as any other member of an organised religion.

Next, lets move on to the idea that we have a 'spark' that seperates us from animals... I would dearly love to have someone explain this to me, because it makes no sense whatsoever. Because we can't teach animals English? I just don't get it.

Here's where I slip into maybe a little bit of evangelical preaching - try to forgive me, but I don't know another way of explaining my beliefs. To me, as an Animist, everything has a soul. You, me, the spider on the wall, the city I live in. God (or Gods, if you want to take them - as I do - as seperate individuals) is everywhere, in everything, because that divine spark of God is what makes us alive. God may or may not have created everything, but that doesn't matter, because there is a part of God in everything. When something dies, its soul moves on to another life as something else - maybe it'll be a corporeal creature, maybe a human, or a mouse, maybe it'll take residence in a mountain or a city, or maybe it'll just stay incorporeal for a while as a spirit of some kind. Souls, like Energy, can't be created or destroyed. Religions like mine are called 'Pantheistic' religions - 'Pan' meaning 'Everything', 'Theistic' meaning 'God-related'. Literally read, 'God is everything'.

As to God's mysteries... well, it's ineffable, innit? The ineffable plan.. 'n... stuff. God isn't meant to be understood - that's fine, nothing is meant to be understood... perhaps we just feel the need to understand God because we have that drive known as 'curiosity'. What's down that hole? What's around that corner? What happens if I stick my hand in this lion's mouth?

I'm only presenting my side of the argument in the hope of furthering discussion - I'm aware that many people disagree with me, and many of their arguments. I've never had a visitation from an Angel or anything visual like that, my religion is based on vague feelings, intuition and what makes sense to me, along with a healthy dose of what might be co-incidence, might be the results of me talking nicely to the right spirits, or might be the result of God/YHWH/Allah/the Myriad/whoever taking pity on a poor heathen...

I don't pretend to understand why the World is the way it is. Here is my theory and believe me I want to underline I have this reasoning simply because it popped in my head. I struggle with my own bias against the supernatural. My faith is far from perfect.

I speculate that God created the world in anticpation of the fall. He gave man the power of choice. Hmmm let me go back further. God created the universe xxx million years ago and it was all good. The angels where the first of His children, again created in His own image. He didn't put them through any trials or tribulations, rather He lavished them with everything they could want or need. Time passes and Satan decides he wants more because no matter what he must always bow to one. He starts a rebellion in heaven and is put out of God's presence. God's remaining angels are His totally and faithfully, but God wants more. He wants followers that could have rejected him rather than followers (angels) that He created to follow him. Their love and devotion is all the more sweeter because they faced the fire to be with him. Their love wasn't created for Him. It was given to Him. (Anyone following me here) Well God made the world and allowed sin to enter it. This set off a chain of events designed to 1: Populate the enitre world with potental followers 2: Test their faith to weed out the ones who are simply fair-weather followers 3: prepare the world for the final chapters of our history.

To put it into an earthly vision. I love to hunt. I have killed many animals over the last few years and I remember each one. But I can honestly say that the trophies I love the most are the ones that I worked the hardest for.

Do you feel this way about something in your life???



Well lets get a few things out in the open.
A: I'm not about religion. I'm about relationship. BIG difference. I want that relationship. Religion is just a term.
1: My parents aren't religious and therefore didn't train me to be a christian. In fact for a time I denouced God when I enetered into middle school.
2: I disagree with you about having a reasoned, totally informed view.
(to give an earthly view)
Would you even ask a girl to marry you if you knew she would say no? How would that knowledge affect your attitude and actions toward her? Toward others. Do you thrill to the chase? You might never live life to the fullest if you knew that no one would marry/love you.
3: My statements are not arguements. I state the truth as I believe.

As for every religion, Christianty's in it's simpliest form is the only truely non-preformance based religion. It's the fairest and easiest.
1: Anyone CAN do it
2: Everyone is WELCOME to do it
3: Everyone does it the SAME way.

All of the other religions in the world require you to act a certain way, wear your clothes this way, eat this or that, whatever. Christianty only requires that you put your faith in Christ to pay the blood bill of your sin.



PM me and I'll send you my contact info.

As a Christian, I believe that the "spark" you refer to is our God-given power of dominion over the earth and everything on it. The fact that we can tame anything on this earth (or everything up to this point) speaks to me that the Word is true. And God gave man dominion over the earth and everything on it.... The fact that we are created in his image. God is timeless and eternal. We are reflections of this in our spirital souls. Our souls are eternal.



Then to you, a soul is eternal but never finds the "end". It has no purpose. It simply IS. Ever wonder where it all started? Ever wonder what you are here for? Seems to me like a "why bother" existance. I'll just wait and see what my next life is like. That doesn't speak to me. That implies that we are just leaves floating about. I think God gives his followers a drive and energy to want to matter. To become a voice/power/vessel/tool to be used. How man uses, and to what extent he uses it, that gift, is left up to the man. Ever feel like you want to accomplish something???

I agree with this. Empty or Cheaper. It's my theory that this is where Satan and his angels came from.




Well I don't believe in religion. It's done alot of bad for the Word, IMO. But one thing the bible does say, and I believe that the Word is God-inspired and God-breathed, is that there is but one way for man to come before God, and that is through Jesus Christ. That is in the bible specifically.
One Door, One Way in, Everyone is Welcome and Able to come to Christ.

BTW, I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone. My hope is that someone reading this will begin asking questions and will at least look into this Christianty thing. Maybe they will find something that lights a fire in their souls. I believe that if you are one of God's chosen, then you will be given the opportunity to come to Him. He might put you through hell to finally break down and turn to Him, or not to turn to Him. Man's choice. I myself try to learn the tough lessons the first time around.

To me the 'spark' is that which gives us morality, and unfortunately immorality too.  For animals, there is only instinct, though some learn from humans about cruelty/kindness and the like.  Think of a cat, who will love you and purr for you, but when it gets down to it is following the instinctive pattern for getting what she wants.  Think of how the same cat will tend to abandon the runt of her litter, though she might be persuaded to change her mind, again by a human, because the runt has less chance for survival, and she instinctively concentrates on those more likely to live.  Humans, on the other hand, may be kind and give more attention to the weak one, if that is their bent.

An empty, pointless existance... yes, there are things I want, and I will hunt them (to use your analogy) to the best of my ability... because living is what makes life matter. It's self-fulfilling - yes, you can drift and do nothing, but that's pointless and gets you nowhere. I have no higher goals to strive for, as you rightly say - if I'm good or evil, successful or a failiure, it won't affect what happens after I die - but it affects what this life is like, and because of the self-determining nature of the future, how I act in this life could well affect how I live in the next one. If in this life, I take actions that will make the world a better place, then in my next life, I'll be born into a better place. If you like, you can think of it as working towards Heaven - not as a mythical other realm, but as a place that this earth will eventually reach. I have things I care about, and people I love, and that's enough to give me a purpose. I work towards their (and, not incidentally, my) happiness. Working towards the 'end'... what's so great about the End? It's just an end. The journey, in my philosophy, is the important part. The ends justify the means, but that's all they're good for. The point, to me, is the means.

Animals with souls... Brianna's point about the cat can be argued. That's the issue of 'Altruism'. However, other animals show signs of altruism as well - social insects, for example, and social creatures such as dogs and monkeys. Is it any co-incidence that humans feel close to these creatures? But, like you get lone wolves, you get lone humans who don't understand or use altruism. Just like you get social cats that accept and enjoy other felines' presence, but most dislike the competition.

Caring for weaker children as a human concept is so recent that people haven't learned to see past it yet. History is filled with cultures that expose weaker children, or dispose of unwanted females or those born with disabilities (distinguished from 'cripples' because a cripple is someone who becomes disabled through misadventure). Human cultures. We've developed the habit of caring for weaker children because we now have the means to support them through technology we've developed. Perhaps the fact that we saw the need to develop that technology is a sign that we're some form of higher life-form, because we certainly don't need it any more than cats or rabbits do... but on the other hand, if souls take on the shape of their flesh, then perhaps that's a human nature - if all creatures were the same, what would be the purpose in changing form between lives?