It just struck me that if we are going to be getting a tanker/vehicle expert, that may put enough people in that we could modify the TOE.

Leave maneuver element as is, break the support element into a two-man sniper team and three people in a vehicle as a mounted QRF.  Of course that would mean the mounted team was driver, gunner, passenger, so not much in the way of dismounts, especially if the passenger is the Padre...

What do y'all think?

Sounds good to me.

In reply to Eric C. Wright (msg # 949):

It just so happens that Kelsey is and has been a tanker/vehicle expert.  It's why she is almost always in a vehicle in some capacity.  Sometimes this changes, because she's damn good afoot as well.  Jill of some trades, be it.

Can the Padre drive? Then the dismount could be someone more, ah, effective (at least when combat is concerned).

In reply to Christopher Little Hawk MacDonald (msg # 952):

Father Nick has 4 in Driving and 4 in Coordination, which I think is the linked attribute. So, not the best driver, but capable of driving.

As long as it’s not a tracked or heavy vehicle...  XD

In that case, hope you find train him good enough and quick enough =P

Some weekend reading...

https://uklandpower.com/2020/0...ult-gun-rides-again/

Yeah, the US has those with the Stryker MGS (Mobile Gun System), mounting the same 105mm cannon as the early Abrams.

Canada had liquidated about half of its fleet of Leopard 1s in the early 2000s, with the intention of replacing them with the Mobile Gun System, but the decision was luckily reversed.

The Spanish Army is quite happy with the Centauro. Back in the days ordered a second batch and more recently some recovery variants if I recall.

Outside the envelope of traditional armored warfare I can envision the extra firepower as a more classic fire support vehicle. Also with the possibility to act as an impromptu tank destroyer as we saw with our last battle bagging a T-55.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 956):

The article mentioned the closest postwar tank destroyer to WWII designs was the S-tank. I don't think so, the S-tank did have a fixed gun but it also had a sophisticated active suspension which could raise and lower the barrel, or the entire vehicle, or twist to slew the gun for several degrees. The closest is the West German Jagdpanzer Kanone 90, a 90mm-armed TD. Although it looks a lot like a WWII Jagdpanzer IV it has no commonality.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 959):

And the swedish S-tank (Strv-103) was according to the swedes not a TD, but a MBT. Which boggles most minds, but it was specifically built for defensive actions in Sweden against the "enemy" (which we all knew was the russians).

In reply to Father Nick (msg # 960):

Don't forget the famous French S-Car!

While the stock model was incredibly slow, they made a track version that was quite quick, and people would say "Wow, look at that S-Car Go!"

Quoting the article:

"The only other postwar design that came closest to the brutal simplicity of a WW2 assault gun was the Swedish S-Tank. Although it looked like a tank destroyer, it was very much a main battle tank."

I do agree. The modern south Korean MBT also adds a suspension system that allows for an extra elevation of the main gun. Always useful in high mountain areas.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:38, Sun 21 June 2020.

That explains why it was called an "S-Tank" and not something to indicate a TD or assault gun role. Although a TD is also meant to be used defensively! (I would still nominate the Jagdpanzer Kanone-90 the most WWII-esque TD.)

Tony.

The Radpanzerkanone 90 you mean?

That 8x8 mix with the Leo-1 turret looks amazing. Like many late Cold War projects were binned without much reverence. The Bundeswehr became oversaturated with ex NVA stuff. The fire sale was impressive. Even Spain got an spy ship from that liquidation.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 964):

Nope, the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 (JPz 4-5/KanJpz). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanonenjagdpanzer

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 964):

The Jagdpanzer Kanone 90mm looked a lot like the Jagdpanzer IV, first made in 1960. It mounted a 90mm gun pulled from surplus M48's. When it became obvious the 90mm shell couldn't penetrate the armour of T-64 and T-72s there were plans to remount them with 105mm guns. Instead the hulls were converted into missile armed Raketenjagdpanzer Jaguar 2s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanonenjagdpanzer

Where we stand:

Mac: All done including contacts. 4 Dice to shared gear. (C3A1 and Barret M82 will come from team gear allotment.)
Eric: All done including contacts. No dice to team gear (late arrival).
Father Nick: All done including contacts. No dice to team gear (new arrival).
Jack: ? No dice to team gear (new arrival.) Contacts?
Keith: I think mostly done? 2 Contacts (quality/type TBD). 2D for team gear.
Kel: All done including Contacts. All 7 Equipment dice allocated to team gear.
Stanley: Looks about done including Contacts, personal gear needs posting. Equipment dice = ?
Taras: Done including contacts. 6 dice for team gear.
Thomas: Partly done. 3 dice for team gear. Contacts needed.

Lookin' pretty good!

Thanks,

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:07, Tue 23 June 2020.

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 966):

Yea, my contacts are done with everything but name. I know that in v2.2. contacts are undefined until you call out that this captain/trader is my contact and then it becomes locked in.

Ah, I see.The Jagdpanzer Kanone 90mm definitely fits the bill. Those were the years right after the Wirtschaftswunder or economic miracle. The military industrial capacity was coming back in full swing and many "rats" were coming back home. I guess many old, dusty binders in the design offices were put back to work. Yet  the new era was fast catching up. Like the advent of more resilient armor and the dawn of the AT missile.

ATGMs have their place, but the best killer of tanks, even with modern armor is still APFSDS.  Missiles are great for a good punch in a lighter package for dismounts or for putting on lighter vehicles or vehicles without a turret, but sabot is still king.

In a line of sight, yes. The advent of more modern AT missiless like that of the Spike family can provide a stand-off, non LOS, top attack approach without the 70 tons package to go with.

Still, the tank is King. Terrain needs to be hold and the faithful infantry won't last against a proper armor punch. For many decades the Canadian Forces were put under the knife and its tank force about to dissapear only to be reborn again in the forge of war as demonstrated in Afghanistan.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 970):

Infantry won’t last long against a PROPER combined arms punch with armor.  Infantry doesn’t do too bad against armor that doesn’t have dismounts.  The Russians learned that in Chechnya.  Tanks aren’t invulnerable, and you don’t need a K-kill to take one out of action.

Yes, indeed. Even more recent examples that Chechnya can vouch for that. But while the expectation of fighting a conventional battle has been the benchmark for theorists and designers, the current crop of conflicts immersed the conventional schemes into a denser fog of war where new dynamics are needed. From active defense packages to unmanned ground vehicles teaming and the recurring dream of the rebirth of the "light tank" the landscape is ever evolving.

TBH, the current US doctrine for the kind of low-intensity COIN ops we're involved in right now is to just use infantry with up-armored HMMWVs/MRAPs/Strykers.  That said, the US hasn't really had a light or scout tank since it got rid of the Sheridan (for good reason), which is a niche it should fill.  Then again, the US military kind of has a lot of niches to fill that it won't.

Medium SAM & AAA gun system would be at the top of the list.  We assume air supremacy so we figure a MANPAD & Patriots will be enough.  And then let's not even talk about cruisers that have nothing bigger than a 5 in gun & some missiles.  Or the fact that he don't have diesel subs...


But hey, at least we got a new pistol...  XD