The adventure is winding up. I would like to discuss opinions/observations about the game in this forum. Over the year, or so, it seems to me that we had several rough spots, a few stimulating encounters and a good deal of interesting roleplaying. Having been the first RPoL game I've run--and the first that most of the players ever participated in--there was a learning curve for the game and I'd like to get feedback. So please share your thoughts in general about the game, as well as anything specific you'd like to pass along.

Additionally, I have been considering ending the game at the end of this adventure. But I think I would miss it. So I'm leaning toward changing the game to something that would be easier to manage. I have some specific ideas that I will share as we discuss. But to get conversation started:

1. Do you want to continue playing a wild west RPoL game?

2. Do you want to continue playing the character you played in the Jonas Comes Marching Home adventure?

3. Assuming the game were to advance in time, with a more structured scenario (much less open-ended), would you want to play?

4. If #3 required that you design a new character, would you play?

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #2):

Yes, yes, yes and yes.

1. I've got to admit that at the beginning I was skeptical a Wild West genre game would hold my interest since I grew up in the swords & sorcery era. But I humbly stand corrected. I find a wild west game very engaging and would be very willing to continue.

2, 3 & 4. I'm in and I've bonded with JEB, but if you want to start new characters I'd still play. Also, let me just add that if JEB continues I request the opportunity to change a few things. Since I was new to the game I didn't understand how to build a character and loaded up with less usefull skills.

Yes to all.  I'd like to continue with Travis.  If allowed I also wouldn't mind reexamining and allocating some skills/feats etc as we move to 2nd level.

I think open-ended vs close-ended is not an issue.  I could play both.  Every now and then I think in the interest of time the judge should simply summarize and move the party on.

Since both JEB and Travis expressed a desire to re-allocate stats, I'll comment on that (and maybe take some tangent).

If you want to continue the same character, I would say don't change what you already did.

First, that's life. You make choices and then later own you say something like "if only I had spent the last 25 years learning how to play piano." GTTM is supposed to be the gritty, harsh old west, not the glamorous movie-set version. That's something I don't want to change--I want the hard knock life. If you keep the character, you keep the character . . . as is.

Now, second, that doesn't mean you can't change him. S:R is designed for multi-classing. I mentioned that during your character design but advised players not to do that until a couple of levels are under your belt. Part of that design gives you the flexibility to change your character over time. There is no penalty for switching classes, at any time. A negative is that you don't get the advancement benefits of an existing class (at least temporarily--because you can switch back and take another level in any class at any time). But you can become well-rounded after a couple of levels. Also, you don't really need to change classes to get cross-class skills, or choose desired feats, so a player can customize the PC easily.

As it happens, everyone levels-up from this adventure. That's one level to work with.

I'm also thinking of advancing seven years. 1872. Being mindful of that, Judge and players would develop further back story for the interim. You would advance your character two more levels during that time (assuming some of it is general living--7 years of adventure would likely leave a feller as dead as powdered wigs). That's three total. In three levels, you could develop your existing PC naturally, without going backwards.

If players choose to keep existing characters I would prefer that we work that way. Additionally, to introduce another topic:

5. Would you accept the need for a couple of required skills or other standards for the group? If so, your PC will need to cover those things during the advancement, or back story.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:28, Sat 22 Aug 2009.

Yes to all but I would really like to continue with Meri. I could see our characters in something akin to the Lincoln County wars... ah-la Regulators but I'm willing to play any scenario really. Thanks Meri

Lincoln County War would be an interesting setting. That's an excellent idea. But that's a little farther ahead than I wanted to advance. Like I said, 7 years is what I'm thinking. To the prime of the Texas cattle drives to the Kansas railheads.

Would love to keep playing Sidewinder and would prefer to keep with Silas...have grown attached to the box of rocks!   :-)

I'm game for either open or closed scenarios but despite the grittiness would like to see a bit more movie-style action. Doesn't have to be Spaghetti Western...Lonesome Dove and Open Range will suffice just fine. Rewatching Deadwood has certainly got my western juices flowing.

Despite the late-game issues that cropped up I think everything turned out just fine. Hey, a group of hobbled together friends with linked pasts are going to have issues, but we all worked through them and cast them aside...bravo.

Okay, time to oil my longarm!

More action is fine with me, but I want to maintain balance between roleplaying and action. In my opinion the couple of battles we had in the valley were exciting in part because they were the culmination of a difficult journey and circumstances. If action becomes too common, it loses that edge, for me. You speak of Deadwood--I've been re-watching the 2nd season, Dana has watched one season with me each of the last two summers--and one of the reasons that is so good is because of the interplay of characters, whether politics or personal. The action punctuates the "roleplaying" in the camp. (Funny, I just started reading Lonesome Dove, the novel; checked it out from the library yesterday).

I can’t say Art really has a bunch of plans. Originally I’d decided (arbitrarily) that Art needed try to locate the homestead from which his journey started many years ago. It’s somewhere not too far from where he is now. That will complete his “first” nearly life-long walkabout. His second grand walkabout will start at that point. He’s a wanderer and can go anywhere in the world.

I estimate that finding the homestead would take Art a month or two of in game time and needn’t happen immediately.

Art want to make sure that Owen gets settled, that he gets hooked back up with his father’s pension.

Art could stay here a while and conduct some adventures, or go on the road, it doesn’t really matter.

I like the character and would enjoy playing him further. That said, I’m not averse to rolling up another, but using RPoL, character development is very drawn out.

There were a few times where we would all get on a roll and log in and respond three or so times over the course of an evening or weekend and things would move along and be quiet enjoyable. Those are favorite times.

One thing I found frustrating was the herky jerky delay involved in giving everyone 48 hours to check in. Sometimes that would mean posting Friday night, checking in 3 or 4 times on Saturday, 3 or 4 times on Sunday, until I almost didn’t care any more then some small post would come in and we’d continue but I felt like the momentum had been lost.

I think that if the group was roughly settled some where it might lend itself to individual gaming on the short term and that I would enjoy that.

The Judge did through in clues at multiple points, some of which I figured out, and I greatly enjoyed that aspect.

I’ll post more as I think of it.

I agree that 48 hours became problematic. I established that expectation early on because a few players hedged about whether they would have time to play regularly. I was hoping to get a number of my past gaming crowds involved. If we move on, a 24 hour period makes much more sense. And the Judge might need to move on sometimes whether you slackin' PCs have spoken your piece or not. In other words, "Shoot, Luke, or give up the gun."


Lone-wolf gaming on RPoL while also involved with a group seems doubtful; however, the idea of having the group roughly settled somewhere would help facilitate the bringing together of heroes after any time advancement. Or, some kind of agreeement to meet up somewhere after an interval. BTW, I'm not set on the 7 year time, it is simply a period I'm interested in that also provides various and sundry adventure hooks.

I am about to be off all. First off everyone have a great weekend. Secondly you might be able to use Fort Griffin... mayhaps change it some to fit your vision of the story. Thanks & Cheers Meri

Fort Griffin...how perfect! Perhaps our paths can intersect again in the future there....

I'd be happy to move to the 1870s.  The bestowment of levels seems a fitting compromise.  I only wanted to switch skills because JEB put it on the table.

CAN WE ALL HAVE HORSES????  PLEASE

No need to yell about horses. Nothing was stopping you from buying a horse to begin with, except perhaps your starting money rolls.

Having the Ride skill is one of the Required elements I was speaking of earlier. If others than Cole had purchased horses, some of the characters would have been untrained riders.

From the Life & Times of Meriwether Lewis Smythe

Meriwether had been working for the railroad, troubleshooter so to speak. His friend & engineer had just been killed due to a blast that should have never been...

Meri wanted revenge for his firend in his one & only robbery...


The two men were thin, one with a willowy frame & the other gaunt to the point of being called emaciated. Yet, they both walked with the grace & ease of gunmen. The wind blew the wisps of hair that had escaped from beneath their hats. The slightly taller gunman had red hair, red three-quarters length coat, & red kerchief which covered the lower part of his face. The other looked uncomfortable in his borrowed & somewhat ill fitting attire. If he wore his own clothes, the gaunt man's identity might well be all too apparent. He had a plain white kerchief to match his partner’s red. His wispy flaxen hair likewise blew beneath his own secondhand Stetson.

They came to a halt at the reinforced door behind which, held their prize, the R&R railroad’s payroll. The door was thick but both men had agreed that the lock could be “picked” by a round from the taller man’s Walker dragoon! They both nodded & drew their weapons. The gaunt gunman's eyes narrowed & he spoke with an accent that would put his origin far from the American West.

“I say! No one is to be hurt ole boy. I shouldn’t want this to get messy.” the man said crisply, as though he was use to having his way.

The taller red head just sighed “Ah been usin' an iron fer eighteen summers now n’ ah’m no fool neither. If’n they don’t fire nor will ah! Ah’ll do whits needin ta be done, nuthun more or less!”

Flaxen hair spoke next “Fair enough… I suppose. You must do the talking for reasons I shan’t explain.”

Red hair shook his head & made a sound of pure disgust “Ah ain’t dumb or nuthun! Ah know that. Ya jus stand there n’ keep the scatter gun covered.  Ah ain't no stranger ta this kinda work. Ah’ll handle my part. You ain’t done this afore have ya?”

Flaxen hair eyes’ narrowed again “I should say not!”

Red hair gave a loud hoot “No time like ta present!”

The Walker Dragoon blew a good size hole into the door, the lock held but the wood around it did not! The shot was followed by rough kick of Red Hair’s boot.

Both moved in quickly guns leveled at the two men inside. A scrawny bald man with rolled up sleeves of a white shirt was counting money. Another in the dark blue uniform of a railroad employee reached for a shotgun an arm’s length away.

Red hair shouted “Ah ain't gonna be say’n this twice! Nobody move n’ nobody dies!”

Flaxen hair’s pale blue eyes bore into the uniformed man’s own. There was fear there for certain. Flaxen Hair shook his head slowly. His twin navy colts flickered gracefully to the side. The message was clear without a spoken word.

MOVE AWAY NOW! OR BE SHOT!

Red Hair chuckled “Ther ain't gonna be no fussin. Jus do wot yer told. Put al that ther money n’ sacks n’ be quick bout it! Ah hope God grants ME patience o’ ah mit jus squeeze a trigger o’ three!”

The uniformed man stopped in mid reach for the shotgun. Though he didn’t back away either. Flaxen hair kept an eye on him, his white kerchief sucking in & blowing out. Beads of perspiration lined his forehead

The bald man stuttered “I… I… I mean… this is my responsibility. Its railroad money. I… I… I’ll lose my job Mister!”

Red hair chuckled again “Better’n los’n yer life ah reckon. Nough talk’n! Start pack’n that money ahway o’ yer dead with no worries!”

The bald man nodded nervously & began stuffing the money in rough burlap sacks. Seconds seemed like minutes & minutes like a lifetime! Somewhere along the line, the uniformed man swallowed hard & his eyes glanced toward the shotgun.

Flaxen hair shook his head again but kept silent. However, it was not enough. The man reached & his hands nearly made the stock. Twin colts fired & took the uniformed man in the chest & neck! The force knocked him back into the rough wooden wall. He slowly sagged to the floor.

Red hair swore “Dad gum! Mer… Dam!“

Red Hair nearly spat, facing the bald man with the money “Faster! Yeh Kin stay liv’n or die lik ‘im! Either way we be skeddadling! Weather yer liv’n o’ dead ‘s up ta ya!”

The smoke from the twin colts irritated an already grave condition. The Englishman blinked away the tears...

Hope you enjoyed it! Meri
This message was last edited by the player at 14:53, Sat 22 Aug 2009.

Fort Griffin is set circa 1877. The Flat was a fledging burg in 1872. We would have to advance at least 10 years (1875) to make FG a logical place, historically. I don't mind fudging a little, as we have in some cases already, but I wouldn't want to do so by more than a year or two. The 1877 marker is already fudged a bit--we at DHR consolidated historical businesses and events from a period of roughly 1872 - 1882, choosing the mid-point as the default setting.

I was actually thinking that advancing to FG could be the step after this one. That said, if enough people wanted to move 10 or 12 years ahead, I would be willing. I would just prefer to jump 6 or 7 years at this time.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #16):

It was my starting money roll that kept me from a horse.  I even bought saddlebags.    I believe  6-7 years would have rectified that... and a saddle...and new pistols and rifle.

and 1 MILLION gold eagles.

and a steamboat.

with a saloon.

OK I'll settle for some folding cash a horse and saddle and some new shiny weapons.

Six or seven years now with a future stop in The Flat would be cool.

I like the idea of moving forward slowly, stoping in 1872 for whatever JM has in mind.

The stink down the well at the property where Artemus was working, what was that about?

In reply to Meriwether Lewis Smythe (msg #17):

Interesting, Meri. What time period is this? The years after GTTM? Actually, I was looking for Meri to do a little blazing fast gun play when some dirt ball needed it.

In reply to Meriwether Lewis Smythe (msg #17):

I enjoyed that Meri. See you in 1870 something.

Nothing. Anything. I just made that up on the spot. A dead critter was my gut inclination. It had nothing to do with the adventure. The Watson place is a complete ad-hoc. I drew the map and made up the details as we played.

Again, I suggest if you want to know more, buy the adventure and read it. It exists in both OGL and Savage Worlds.

I'm happy with Cole's character. I'm also happy with the genre (i.e. Wild West).

I don't have much of a preference as to time period. Makes little difference, to me. Advancing play 3 years or 10 doesn't alter things, from my point of view. An adventure is an adventure, regardless of the time period. For me, that's what's game play is all about -- adapting to the environment in which our characters are placed and reacting accordingly.

If I were to see some things change, it would be more along the lines of how the game is conducted, as opposed to the time period in which the game is conducted. For example:

1) I would see more tangible rewards for proper play. In essence, "treasure". Money, better weapons, horses, that kind of thing. Role-playing, for the sake of role-playing, is fine but the satisfaction level can only go so far. We played a very long time (real time) and didn't come out with any clear haul of treasure.

2) Die rolling, at times, seemed a bit much. I guess I tend to think that rolls should be primarily reserved for those times when circumstances are actively working against the player from succeeding at a certain action. For instance, searching for someone (in Cole's case, Hattie) when she wasn't actively hiding from him, should not require a "spot" check. Or, "navigate" rolls when a character is only traveling a day or so, in well marked terrain, should not be necessary. Another example is hunting/foraging. I would have preferred the judge summarize these activities, as a group. For instance, simply state to the party an acknowledgement that we have enough hunters to permit the judge to roll for the group, factoring in local conditions and individual skill levels, and coming up with a summary to be applied to the group.

3) I also would prefer more emphasis on role play versus book-keeping. Keeping track of rations (primarily) and ammunition (secondarily) was becoming a bit tedious. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to keep track of that stuff, particularly during a battle (in the case of bullets), but dealing with that stuff on a daily basis was a bit tiresome. From time to time, I've thought of coming up with a sophisticated spreadsheet that would help ease the administrative burden of keeping track of rations, modifiers, bullets, skills and such (much like your PDF, but far more expansive), but I've not had the time to put into it.

4) I believe I've also made myself clear where I stand with respect to the over-use of OOC comments within the gaming forums. So, I won't re-hash all of that.

5) I read what Art wrote about game flow and I agree, in principal. However, I'm not sure that can be reasonably avoided with so many players, with different schedules and who likely live in different time zones. I have no objection to the judge moving things along, as circumstances permit, but I have difficulty seeing that working consistently. Still, it can work sometimes and that can only help game flow.

As a Judge, I really don't care much about "treasure" in a Wild West game. I'll be up front and say, I'm not going to focus on that. At the same time, I would also say I disagree with your assessment. During the adventure, your group did acquire valuable items--new guns, more ammo, food, a compass, a little money--indeed, significant items in my view. Just not enough to fill Cole's saddlebags to overflowing. If as a player you're looking for big bags of loot, GTTM will continue to disappoint you.


Your Hattie example is a poor one. She was indeed hiding, almost all the time. It's her best skill and one she used daily to stay alive while spying on the squatters.

In the larger sense, there are ways to reduce the die rolling. Personally, I enjoy the die rolling. That's always been a fun part of the RPG for me. Nevertheless, if a particular character wants to roll less, the Judge can roll more often for that PC, or that person can pre-roll a bunch of rolls and I'll use them. I'm happy to accommodate in that regard.


First, I think we did PLENTY of roleplaying. I don't think book-keeping overshadowed the roleplaying at all.

Second, I believe it's important to do book-keeping in this type of game. Especially ammunition. You won't change my mind about that particular element. Although, if we are playing an adventure where food is plentiful or readily available, I'm not going to sweat that element as much. In the Jonas adventure, food was a real issue and part of the plot. Read the adventure and you will see that was written into it from the beginning. Logical for the circumstances and key to surviving the adventure.


I sort of wish you would. I find that annoying as well.

Actually, it should, because Bart and Buck would be 10 years older in 10 years. Bart might  be dead--or at least a lot slower. Buck would be out of his prime. Probably still alive, although assuming Cole continued to adventure over the years, that is also debatable.

Even in 7 years, that would make a big difference to a dog. Bart would probably be lazin' on a farm somewhere, snoozing away the afternoon.

Artemus’ take on Cole’s points

While some treasure gitin’ is fun, it’s really only on the short term. I see the game as journey, not a destination. Art has everything he needs. He’s thinking about taking another Colt to match the one he has. But he wants only what he can carry. Increased abilities are what I suppose he desires. Two things for Artemus that came in very handy were his binoculars and his lantern, both of which were purchased with money that came from selling hides and food.

As a mini adventure it would be fun to play a saloon equipped riverboat owner, maybe we could get the judge DM a scenario such characters.
-
I didn’t have a problem with the die rolling save the shittiness of the rolls themselves, and occasionally not getting that the judge needed me to make one. Prerolls are good for that.
-
Initially I wrote up a spreadsheet and copied it to my character sheet (which complained that it contained tabs but took it none the less) and kept my running total there. Here is an excerpt from one part.

   Food 3.5 days saddle bag 0.5 $30.00 $15.00
    - 1 day rations (see 1a msg #699)
    - 1/2 day for July 10
   - 1/2 day for July 11  (see 1b #486)
-
OOC comments: Though you said over use, I got the idea that any use was what you didn’t like. I think it clearly got out of hand, but that wasn’t really an OOC problem, that was good old fashion argumentation. A little is the equivalent of the quasi-insulting banter that normally takes place in a gaming session.

"Overflowing" and "big bags of loot" is not exactly what I had in mind. Those words over-simplify and obscure my real meaning. To be clear, considering the amount of time we've spent in the game, not gaining enough money to rent a decent room at the end of the adventure was a bit of a disappointment. Still, I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the adventure. All I'm trying to say is that there are some aspects of the game that I would have preferred to see emphasized a bit more. That doesn't mean that other aspects of the game would have to be emphasized a bit less. I think mutual exclusivity is not our only option here.

For me, the purity of role-play only gets me so far. There has to be an emphasis on a goal. And, there should be an adequate reward for achieving that goal. Admittedly, "adequate" reward is very subjective. Some might consider simply surviving an adequate reward. Other's might suggest that something a bit more than that is in order. I guess finding that balance is the job of the judge, taking into account (of course) the players' expectations. We are partners in this, after all.

Character advancement is good and I'm not trying to de-value that. But, that is only one way to measure achievement.

To me, playing a game is as much about winning (i.e. achieving the goal of the adventure/scenario), as it is about playing. Or, secondarily, if we fail to achieve the goal, then I'd measure degrees of success in terms of how we pursued the goal. If we failed to meet our goal due to internal bickering and strife, then we absolutely lost. Alternatively, if we played well in pursuit of our goal, yet still lost, then degrees of success come into play and I can live with that.



The Hattie example was a construction used to illustrate a more general point regarding the use of rolls. My intent was to say IF she was not hiding the spot roll  should not be necessary. More specifically, if the character thought she wasn't hiding, then it is reasonable to expect the roll to be unnecessary.



Die rolling in combat situations or related urgent circumstances is enjoyable. Even when the rolls suck! Rolling die, on a regular basis, for more mundane character activities, not so much. At least when it becomes (a subjective measure, I'll admit) too much.




I think the book-keeping AND the over-use of OOC comments (within the gaming forums) detracted from the role play, primarily during the less "action-oriented" parts of the adventure. I may be mistaken here, but looking back on the adventure, I seem to recall a significantly lower amount of book-keeping and distracting OOC commentary during those times of the adventure when we were actively engaged in encounters. It wasn't until the quiescent periods (relatively speaking, of course) of the adventure when the book-keeping and the OOC commentary began to become much more noticeable. I don't think that was a coincidental.

I think some of the previous comments I have read regarding strategically moving things along, speaks to that point.

And, to be clear, I have absolutely no problem with keeping track of bullets and such during a combat situation or other similar encounter. That only makes sense. In fact, in those instances it actually enhances game play -- at least in my view. I thought I had addressed that sufficiently, in my prior post. My issue with book-keeping is more general in nature.

I will suggest a "New Rule" (if I might borrow from Bill Maher): How about banning OOC commentary from the playing forums, completely? Let's restrict that kind of commentary to the OOC forum, entirely? If someone requires clarification of the rules or a situation, then how about using private excerpts, within the gaming forums, to the Judge for that? I think this will help encourage folks to focus on making their characters do their speaking and acting for them. As opposed to using OOC commentary to effect (either intentionally or not) the flow of the game. If someone has some clever OOC commentary to make, then do it in the OOC forum, exclusively.

While I don't like the off-topic OOC stuff in the gameplay forum, I think OOC stuff that is game related (rules questions, clarifications, etc.) should remain for simplicity sake. Take the non-game related elsewhere.

I realize that. I meant it doesn't alter things, for me, personally. I should have been more clear on that point.

However, with respect to Cole, that means he should have a number of years to acquire a new horse and a new dog, as well. It also means that he could have plenty of opportunity to train both, as well. I also realize that depending on Cole's circumstances, he could end up with neither at the end of a few years. I guess this all depends on how you, as the judge, adjudicates the passage of time.

Agreed. Treasure gittin' is lots of fun. But, yes, only a part. There is the journey (role-play) and the character's advancement to consider, too. I think all should be thrown into the mix.

I've since expanded on this point in subsequent messages.


Yeah, I've just not taken the time to create a spreadsheet that would greatly ease the book-keeping burden. But, it would be great to have one though...

I was thinking that kind of stuff could be done with private excerpts to the judge, within the public messages. If the judge finds that he is receiving multiple messages from other players, addressing the same topic (or not), then he could post a public message, addressing the issue, in the gaming forum.

Still, there is something to be said for simplicity. So, I'm on board with your suggestion, as well. My primary point is your last sentence.

I think you're trying to keep the reading to a minimum ;-)

I have one other suggestion that I would like everyone to consider. It is actually an extension of a prior set of posts initiated by Travis, I believe.

As I recall, Travis mentioned that one of the things he found that he missed in playing this game is the lack of interactivity (table top gaming, beer, and pizza) of the medium. I see his point. There is much to be said of the social aspect of gaming (hangin' with the fellas, etc..). I had mentioned we could perhaps achieve some of that via instant messaging (IM). Admittedly, we all seem to log in at various parts of the day or night, so this might NOT work at all. I, for one, can't commit to logging in at a pre-determined time every day. I expect none of us can. Clearly, though, there are times when some of us are logged in at the same time.

Anyway, I thought it might be worth considering...

It might be cool to organize a private chat group via any established multi-platform IM mechanism (google talk, IRC, whatever...). When we log into rpol we could simultaneously log into the chat group. This would allow us a degree of interactivity while playing that we lack now.

Just a suggestion, though. I figured it would be worth mentioning since the judge was soliciting input from everyone.

Got that right!

And, if we were on IM we could be chatting, right now!

OOC stuff in the game forum should just flat-out make sense...no reason me keeping something private to JM only when others might benefit from the question...just keep the off-gaming topic crap outta there.

So chiding Cole for taking grown men on a potty break. . . that belongs in the main forum. Suggesting 3 shakes, that's OOC.

Gittin' treasure ain't as 'portant ta me.  I likes tha battles an' such; tell me y'all wuzint imprest with Silas' a-mazun shootin'.  Treasure's right nice, but we'z playin' real men, not 18-72 fighters with Bracers of Ogre-power, so encumbrance iz a real concern.

I likes tha role-playin'.  It just gits a bit much to carry on a conversashun in this forum.  Maybe battle commintz shud be lim-tid to whut ya can sound out in two seconds.  Other speakin' otta be whut ya can say in 10 seconds.  Speakin'a speakin', id be nice ta see speech closer ta the times an educashun level a da fellers; figrin out whut a man say'd iz part da fun.

Chattin' on-line iz a bad idea (surrey 'bout dat Cole), I thinks.  The flow control wud be down rite impossbull ta reg-u-late, not ta menshun cordinate.

I'd just like ta see da 'ventures be lighter.  I know's dis ain't whut ole Judge Messin'-whit-cha has in mine, but swurth sayin' n-e-wayz.  That thar newsy-paper, The Fort Griffin Echo, Vol. 1, No. 1 has dem Cinema Styles thair on page 32.  Those-id be fun ta use, but ain't no sense when everthangs gotta be so serious-like.

I'm sayin' id be "fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun."

One of my ideas about advancing in time, is that yes, indeed, your character will have been able to acquire new guns, horse, etc. Bear in mind, that if we go to 1872, you still won't be able to have a Colt Peacemaker, or Lightning, or a Winchester '73, but those loom ahead in the next time jump  . . .

I'm intrigued by the "treasure" discussion. So far, it sounds like Cole is the only one who desires "treasure." Your point about exclusivity is well-taken, but if my "big bags of loot" is over-simplification, then please be more specific.

What amount of "treasure" would have made this more appealing for Cole? Be specific, in terms of the historical time period.

While I leave that question open to you, in all seriousness, I will reiterate that in my opinion, the spoils the party (not Cole himself) acquired were commensurate with the adventure.

1. Lots of guns (enough for each character to step and claim a weapon)
2. Lots of ammo (enough to replenish existing weapons and load new weapons)
3. Small amounts of money (subsistence amounts along the journey)
4. A homestead where a feller was welcome to find a bed and sleep under a water-tight roof (true, it belonged to one PC, but it was clear to the Judge that everyone was welcome there). Better than renting a room somewhere.
5. Free lodgings and high-falutin' meal in Lesterville, including for Buck.
6. A barn where Buck could rest comfortably for as long as Cole wanted to stay (assuming I read my Chance's right).

So, from the Judge's perspective, the only thing missing is coins, gold, currency. So how much money would have made it worthwhile to Cole?

It's a fine suggestion. But for fuck-sake, we couldn't even get everyone to log in every 48 hours to keep things moving. So I agree with Chance on this one: downright impractical.

In a western game, I could really give a fart less about treasure, the journey, interplay and white hat/black hat/grey hat is the thing for me.

Pondering the future of GTTM today got me thinking that a location based "adventure" might be interesting with the PC's knowing the players in town, etc. Kind of inspired by Deadwood where you interact with the same NPC's.

Don't know what JM has in mind and I'm game for anything, just spewing brain juice.

Hey all! So the starting year of our next adventure will be 1870? Will we all meet up once more or will we have to travel to our destination? Also, I feel that Travis & I were shooting for the same type of advancement. If it is okay with Travis, maybe we could have teamed up a time or two on various jobs in the past? Thanks Meri

Hey Silas! I like that idea as well. However, I am game for whatever the Judge has planned. I think it is awesome that I can continue to play Meri in the future! Cheers Meri

So, as there seems to be a consensus for continuing, as well as little (or no) objection to advancing in time, here's what I propose:

We advance to 1871 or 1872 (I'm still thinking about the granularity in that regard).

The players who wish to keep their characters will advance as I had described. One level for the Jonas adventure; two levels for the time spent between Jonas and where we resume. Existing characters will advance from the existing stats, no backwards re-statting, only advancement-related changes.

The players who wish to start a new character (namely the player previously known as Chance) will develop a 4th level character.

We will all agree as a group on how the existing characters will be reassembled (more on that forthcoming, as I now know what each continuing character intends to do at the end of the Jonas adventure).

All players agree to a minimal group template, such as (and I mean that literally, "such as," not "precisely") . . .

1. We are all law-abiding cowpokes.
2. We act when we see injustice.
3. We follow the agreed-upon leader's orders (PC or NPC), unless those orders contradict #1 or #2
4. We resolve disputes by majority vote.

We can post our ideas and come to consensus on the template here online--in this forum or one created for that purpose.

(BTW, I would be happy to go another direction with the group template, as long as there is a consensus; for example, #1, #2 and #3 could be: "We are all no-account, scofflaws. We exploit every situation for our own gain. Any one of us would stab the leader in the back to take over if the time was right.").

All PCs must have the Ride skill with at least 2 ranks.

All PCs must have two "everyday" Knowledge skills with at least 2 ranks (such as Knowledge: Popular Culture or Knowledge: Current Events or Knowledge: Theology/Philosophy or Knowledge: Streetwise).

To foster party balance: Someone should have some sort of Perform skill (sing, dance, instrument). At least one PC must have Diplomacy. At least two characters must have Navigation. These are Judge prerogatives. PCs can work together to make sure someone has each of these.

The group will be involved in a cattle drive when we start. I don't want to give details now, but that will be the framework. So skills/feats, etc. that aid in that line of work should be included in your advancement.

Every character will have a horse (could be owned, could be a horse used specifically for the drive, but owned by someone else, e.g. an NPC). All characters will have $700 to outfit themselves as desired (based on availability in 1872). You don't have to pay for the mount, unless you want it to be your personal horse; and Cole may still have Buck). You don't have to buy saddle/tack unless you want it to be your own). Whatever is left is the cash the character has on hand.

The Judge will work with PCs (singly or in groups that might have reason to be together) to work out backstories that culminate in a reunion.

We will have a 24 hour posting rule. The Judge may advance the plot as he sees fit while keeping that posting rule in mind.

The essential flavor of the milieu won't change. It will be a gritty, hardnose, environment. The goin' through the mill idiom will continue to summarize the general atmosphere.

Feel free to debate these starting point ideas.

The way I see it, cash enough for a 2-4 weeks in a decent place, with meals, saloon money and a little bit of spending money for incidentals (cigars, whoring, etc..), that would be a good place to start.

I wasn't aware of an offer of free lodging in Lesterville. Apparently, I missed that. But, that works, as well.

Other less obvious forms of treasure would be welcome, as well. Truthfully, not too many things come to mind, at the moment. But, I'll give it a shot:

1) Maps or letters that could contain valuable information could be interesting.
2) An offer to re-shoe my horse or provide Cole a new saddle.
3) Reward money for taking down Tate (Money, yes, but logical within the framework of the story, I should think)
4) Documents (deeds to land, wills, etc...) that could prove valuable to sell or to return to the original owner
5) Watches, jewelry, antiques, etc... Another form of cash perhaps, but items of value nonetheless.

As I write this, I can't help but feel quite mercenary. But, screw it, it's a game, I can be a greedy selfish bastard if I want to! Not everyone can be Quai Chiang Kane or Lucas McCain.

No argument here. Just thought I would put it on there since you were soliciting input.

Now that we're time jumping I don't need "treasure."  I think of Travis like Max the Road Warrior.  Every time we see him he's basically the same.  Different vehicle, low on food, heavy on weapons.  Wandering about.

That said if it is critical, I would suggest a game mechanic compromise.  In Shadowrun one could purchase a lifestyle.  For X dollars you could purchase homeless, poor, middle class, rich, super rich for a  year.  In this case perhaps as "treasure" the judge could offer a feat for a lifestyle or offer enough dollars to guarantee a lifestyle for the next chapter.  Bookkeeping would be forgone.  Characters in the middle class are at the boarding house, homeless in the streets, Rich have a room and bath at the hotel, super rich would own a house or be staying with the governor.  Regardless, whether you purchase a lifestyle as treasure or character feat or are rewarded by the judge  you presume he has enough to maintain room, board, entertainment and clothing for his lifestyle.

Travis would probably start off this round with the coins in his pocket.  Meri and Cole I would imagine would be living much better.  Cole would be keeping a gambling stake and both would be staying in the nice rooms at the hotel.   All of us would not be the same.  Based on skills, feats and intentions for the off years I would ask the judge to spread some wealth to those whose character would naturally earn it.

Travis would be happy to do some of the intervening years with Meri and others.

I agree with the template but will only to commit to it for use with the 24 hour rule.  In character Travis reserves the right to behave as he sees fit.  For example, he didn't wait for a vote to head off to face Tate.  Once 24 hours pass, I accept any outcome or judge decided/assigned action consistent with the template.

Actually, such a mechanic (not exactly as you describe, but similar) is already built in to S:R (the Wealth System that is part of the OGL) to facilitate the kind of gaming Travis describes. In S:R, we added the Cold Hard Cash system for a more realistic old West experience. I prefer the Cold Hard Cash, although I don't object to the Wealth System. For now, I'd rather stick with Cold Hard Cash. As we progress, we could slide into the kind of system Travis proposes.


Agreeing with the template doesn't mean a character can't do as he sees fit. It means that all players agree that this is the general code of conduct for the group (whatever that code is, I'm not interested in setting it for you, so your comment "I agree with the template" doesn't mean much yet, as there is no template and in fact I suggested a dichotomy of examples to illustrate that the template can be whatever you want it to be, as long as the players agree to it.) It was clear to the Judge that the mix of character orientations during the Jonas adventure made gameplay problematic. I think a template will reduce (not eliminate) differences of opinion that slow down the gaming, or make group actions difficult.

The most interesting thing to me about western game is the Gray Hat (or Grey Hat, depending on your continent).


I was thinking along similar lines. Not quite as location-specific as Deadwood, but my idea of a cattle drive scenario provides two known locations: where the drives originate and where they conclude. As well as known points in between, assuming the heroes have driven this route before (which is what I'm thinking). This idea also facilitates the reunion of characters--one or more of the characters has been on a successful drive and recruits more to join. The requests can come from face-to-face meetings, telegraph, letters delivered by stage, etc.

Oh boy, remind me to never have you negotiate for me!

So we stay with hard cash per the Judge's desire.

Just to remind the judge, there comes a point where low-levels stop worrying about rations, number of torches, where they're going to get their next meal and if they can go to the tavern or afford 50' of rope.  At that point, the party has enough gold that the incidental costs are rounding errors and copper and silver pieces are simply ignored in the treasure chest.  I am personally ready for that point.

I say this because Travis is poor.  Not by feat but by cash on hand.  Travis has missed roleplaying opportunities because he could't afford a drink.  I don't mind him not carrying around a big stake but if roleplaying is minimized because of a lack of a few bits or I spend my time worrying where I'll get enough oats to feed my horse or how to pay for his new shoe then I'd ask the judge to consider more cash.

Travis doesn't need to be rich but a cowpoke lifestyle shouldn't be beyond his means.  Figuring out what's cheaper, whiskey or beer just dampens the mood.  A gunslinger should strut in, slam some money on the bar and get what he asks for.  If Travis is destitute, like Payden from Silverado was after he had been robbed, that is fine as an good adventure hook, but not as a fact of life.

Regardless, if it becomes too cumbersome, Travis will just have to rob a bank or a train.

Travis, I understand your point. I already said I wasn't going to sweat things like food as we advance, assuming it is plentiful or readily available. Obviously on a cattle drive, there will be a chuck wagon (it was invented in 1866.)

And I just gave every character $700. You'll have plenty of cash.

EDIT: That was msg #46, if all y'all missed it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:09, Mon 24 Aug 2009.

I just hope $700 is enough for Cole.

Awesome your Judgeness.  Then we're all in agreement.  Whew.

And now for something completely different.

Think back to more than a year ago when Mr. Smythe sent the Judge a PM and asked to join the game even though the Judge wasn't advertising for players.

We debated whether our crusty old group of gamers would let in a new player that we didn't know personally. Finally, we voted to let him in. And there was much rejoicing.

Well, history repeats itself. Another person has sent the Judge a PM and is interested in joining the game as we continue. We have had a PM conversation since just before I started the Jonas post-mortem. The person has been following our forums since we started Chapter 2, if I have understood correctly. At first I told the person that I wasn't sure the game was going to continue, but we are now moving forward.

Much like Meri, this person has come prepared with an idea for a character and seems to have an interest in the wild west gaming. I believe the character can fit in with the next phase of GTTM. Much like Meri, I told the person I would put it to the group for a vote.

Please post your opinions and ultimately your vote.

Always room on a cattle drive for more fellas...I give a hearty yes as long as JM feels he has room.

Fellas, here's my plan for advancing Silas through the years...since we have 3 levels to advance, I'm going to do 1 at a time and have each cover 2 - 2.5 years of game time. At each level I'm going to determine how and why he got the feats, skills, etc. he got and concoct a story to go with it.

I'll then post up the story (more than likely just a paragraph or three) for all to read. Hopefully during this process some of you may chime in and our characters will cross paths and I can change/amend Silas' story.

Woohoo...this'll be fun! Drinks are on Silas...he's got $700 burning a hole in his pocket.

Another thought, we’d gone a little rogue on the text formatting, and sticking to the agreed upon formatting might help clarity.

Example

OOC: In caps, and just the OOC bold.

"Speech" Quotes and orange

Thought Black italics

We did our own thing with die rolls, though aqua seems to be good, and differentiates it from the blue JM uses for NPC dialog.

11:00, Sat 15 Aug: Artemus Carson rolled 12 using 1d20+1. Search dead men.

Yes.

Blue.

Terse.

Fifty two.

Non-referential.

He probably doesn't want to join us anymore.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #57):

I vote yes, and Meri worked out nicely, but really anybody that joins the group should do so on a loosely probationary basis.

I vote with my ambiguity.  Really, having a new cowpoke'll be refreshing.

Owen:
Woman Loner: He's gonna pimp Abby
Oral Men Now: (I'm not going to speculate)
Ram Noel Now: Is it "Noel Hattie Ferguson?"

Abby:
Aside from Abby Normal I don't get much

The starting point for JEB in the backstory to 1871 or 1872 will be more succinct. JEB sees an opportunity for a respectable living since it looks like this town needs a new sheriff.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #57):

No objections.

The town most definitely needs a new sheriff. Assuming Chance doesn't want the job and he supports JEB as a candidate, JEB is a natural as far as the townsfolk are concerned.

Chance?

Well I have no objections in another joining. I have had a blast in this game & would not want to deprive anyone else the pleasure of gaming with such an outstanding group!!! Meri & I thank you all once again!

I'm fine with another joining in. The more, the merrier (pun intended...)

The pun much appreciated ole chap! Thanks & Cheers Meri

I didn't want to impose, but I wanted to suggest that very thing.  Chance would rather be a city planner.

I'm pleased to see that characters are talking to each other about ways to connect their characters along the way as we advance to 1871 (I'm leaning heavily toward 1871 now).

Do keep it up.

However, the group template idea has been overlooked. I do need you all to agree on some basic points.

You can use or discard the examples I threw out. You can make up your own. But the Judge requires specific agreements such as those suggested. Please discuss that as you continue thinking about your character's development and connected back story.

You can start with a simple one: White Hat, Black Hat, Gray Hat?
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:11, Tue 25 Aug 2009.

Gray Hat!

Rather then White/gray/black Travis sees himself in an Anti-hero role.  On the side of good, but prepared to do what is necessary.

Starting with how the character feels about himself is fine.

But the end result needs to be how the group sees itself.

My new character, Randy Oldman, will have the perform skill.  That's all that's concrete now.  I've got that prerequisite covered.

Silas has Navigate and will be improving that skill as well.

Bond?

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #77):

White hat all the way given JEB's new occupation.

JEB would most likely take Diplomacy.

Judge Messin-whit-cha, would you keep an update rolling of who chooses the prereq's?

Bond?

"The Antihero is someone with some of the qualities of a villain, up to and including brutality, cynicism, and ruthlessness, but with the soul or motivations of a more conventional Hero."

Sure, but obviously only in world view.  Lots of Anti-heros... Dirty Harry, Mad Max, John McClain, Han Solo, Batman, Sam Spade, Wolverine.  Western Anti-heroes abound.  Many Eastwood characters.  Most of the Magnificent Seven.

I can see Meri coming back to visit Chance & Jeb during these 7 years. I am coordinating with Travis as well. Would anyone else like to meet up with Meri? If so let me know here or via a PM. Thanks my friends! Cheers Meri

PS This is fun Judge! Meri

Oh, so book-keeping is fine if the Judge has to do it? I might provide an update now and again, but I want the players talking to each other.

An anti-hero is a gray hat in my opinion.

Please keep discussing. These ideas will help all y'all develop a group template.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #89):

My character, Randy, won't have any really firm convictions, or he might, if the crew goes that way.  Just no black hatting, please.  You'll understand more when you meet the little guy.

BTW, something that is often overlooked. Every character gets a Feat every 3rd level. You get bonus feats for class advancement, but you also get a Feat every total 3rd level.

For example,
A single class character that reaches 3rd level, gets a new Feat.

A multi-class character that reaches 2nd/1st, gets a new feat.

So far, there seems to be a consensus to NOT take the black hat route. There's no problem with a mix of characters who lean toward gray or white, as long as there is agreement on the general party orientation and code of conduct.

Let me be clear. A group template is a requirement for continuing this game. The Judge doesn't care what the content of the template is, as long as it's clear and everyone agrees to it.

So please start drafting something together.

Ah, another thing: At 4th level (and every 4 levels), heroes get a +1 to any one ability score.

I was leaning more toward Grey Hat myself, definitely black hat. I will play white hat if that is the group majority. Hey Judge, just so we are clear, what other components must the Template have beside wearing one of the three hats? Hey Jeb! PM me as I would like Meri to come back to visit you Chance during the 7 year period. Thanks Meri

I gave examples in msg 46. I gave two different examples that were essentially a white hat or black hat orientation.

The hat metaphor was just to get conversation started.

Think Asimov's 3 laws of robotics. A core set of conduct that the group agrees to in order to function.

I don't care if it is one paragraph that describes it, or a few bullet points, or a poem, or a flow chart, as long as it is clear and everyone agrees to it.

That's 'Character Level' not 'Class Level', right?  (pg 53, Ability Increases)
This message was last edited by the player at 04:18, Thu 27 Aug 2009.

I can understand a code or orientation for the purpose of a judge to determine player actions when the 24 hour rule is in effect otherwise it has no effect or reason to exist.  Do I understand the judge correctly?

Correct.

Alright, let's get this puppy settled...

GTTM Group Template

1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3)
4)
5)
6)

Copy, paste, discuss...lets get a half-dozen or so worked out.

GTTM Group Template

1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3)Randy Oldman has Perform Skill (2 Nav's and 1 Diplomacy remain)
4)
5)
6)

Started by Silas
1st edit by Randy

I appreciate Silas effort to get a draft going, and Chance/Randy's effort to continue it.

However, please keep the "group template" agreement separate from the in-game requirements such as Diplomacy.

Group Template
1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3)
4)
5)
6)

Game requirements
1) Randy Oldman has Perform Skill
2) 1 Diplomacy (a few PCs stated the possibility, none confirmed yet)
3) 2 Navigate (JEB has 1)
4) All require Ride
5) All require 2 Knowledge skills with 2 ranks minimum each

Started by Silas
1st edit by Randy
Edit by JM

Group Template
1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3)
4)
5)
6)

Game requirements
1) Randy Oldman has Perform Skill
2) 1 Diplomacy (a few PCs stated the possibility, none confirmed yet)
3) 2 Navigate (JEB has 1, Silas has)
4) All require Ride
5) All require 2 Knowledge skills with 2 ranks minimum each

Started by Silas
1st edit by Randy
Edit by JM
Edit by Silas

Sort of. The reason to have the code/orientation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is because the lack of such an agreement made it difficult for the group to function in the Jonas adventure. If all players in the group agree such a covenant before the adventure starts, you all know what to expect from each other and the Judge knows what to expect from the group and the Judge knows how to orient the game. Everyone had their own ideas about what the game would be and that caused problems. It's the agreement about the groups orientation in this game that the Judge cares about.

A few players have passed along specific character development (different than back story) ideas or questions as they are doing the level advancements. Just want everyone to know that I'm happy to share ideas and provide feedback on character development if you think it would help you.

Make sure you track each level advancement independently, especially if you intend to go the multi-class route.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #77):

Gray hat.

What's the current month/year?

Your honor,

Is there a lingua franca of the Native Americans.  I would like to pick up a native American language.  Sioux, Apache, Cherokee and Navaho I think would be the big ones, depending on your location.  Less so Cherokee but perhaps with the diaspora from the East Cherokee spread all around.

Less important then what I should take is what I may use.  If you have definite locales and hooks you're thinking of using I'd definitely sign up for a language which you think would be useful to Judge and my pards.

Will work on Back story and contact Meri, Art, Silas et al. this weekend.  Thanks for patience amigos.

Travis wants to Forrest Gump his way through the intervening years.  I'm working on picking out a few historical events which with Judge's permission I'll participate/witness.  Meri already has an idea along that line.

Oh yeah... what month/year and place will we be reuniting.

Group Template
1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3)
4)
5)
6)  - Members wear matching rhinestone studded vests featuring official group motto "Draw guns, not pictures"

Honestly I can't think of anything.

Since Travis has asked, I'll give some more information. I've been thinking more about it after everyone said they wanted to play and I put forth the idea to advance in time.
-----------------

July 3, 1871. (About tea time)

San Antonio, Texas.

Fixin' to ride on the cattle drive to Abilene, Kansas. The outfit is called "No Buffalo" and it is led by a man named Major Gray.

-----------------

As I mentioned earlier, it's best if one of the characters has already ridden a drive.

Cole seems the most likely choice based on what folks have told me about their possible back stories. Could be someone else. Whoever it is contacts another and that feller sends a telegraph to another and so forth. That person knows the No Buffalo is a strong outfit that pays well (Cole feels a private stirring). They need riders and anyone recommended by a rider in good stead is welcome to join.

The various Native American languages exist. Take your pick. Knowing you are on the cattle drive through or near the Comanche, Apache, Kiowa, Cheyenne, Arapaho--as well as through the Oklahoma territory where Cherokee and others have been re-located--should help. Any of those would be of use on the trail. And often, one tribe spoke the language of another, so knowing one NA language helped in communicating with multiple tribes.

You should also consider where Travis has been so it's plausible for him to have learned the language. If you're spending all your time in the Black Hills, something like Crow or Lakota would make sense. If you've been in the southwest, Apache and Comanche rise to the top. Colorado rockies? Ute, Paiute, Arapaho, Cheyenne, others. Oregon? The Klamath or the Modoc. Alternatively, pick one of the languages of Indians along the drive route and make sure your back story covers why you would have learned it.

1) All of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3) Once committed see it through
4) One for all and all for one
5)
6)

To the great chagrin of the French, English is the lingua franca of the world. There were more than 500 languages and none of them were written. Unless Travis spends all of his time with a single tribe, he’s unlikely to pick up too much. On the other hand, he could probably pick up some key phrases from several common tribes and get by okay.

Then again, JM rules; my opinion doesn’t matter at all!

Well it does to me but it still doesn't count! Art PM me! Thanks Meri

Well, Cherokee has a written language system, invented by Sequoyah (or some speculate by his ancestors and credited to him). It is a syllabary.

Anyway for game purposes, as I stated in 112, if Travis wants to learn to Speak Language for a specific Indian tongue, he  may. I just ask for plausible back story. Table  3.44 shows sample language groups and languages. But indeed, there is no lingua franca.

Thanks your honor.  Please let me know what skills Art wold like to pursue so I can explain why he can't have those.

Ha ha. Touché. Sorry, that wasn't my intent. Penalty beer.

In reply to Artemus Carson (msg #118):

<Homer> Mmmm  Beer... Arghghghghgh </Homer>

Hey Judge.!  Am I to understand that quick draw is not a fast hero bonus feat?  Tell me I missed some errata.

I looked too Travis... but to no avail. Thanks Meri

Quick Draw isn't a bonus feat for any class. That is on purpose.

But don't get yer dander up. Just take it at 3rd level with your Character Level 3 feat, which can be used for any feat on the list, as long as your cowpoke meets the prereqs.

Again, the design for that is purposeful for game balance.

Just found that.  Thought it was 1 and 5th not 1,3, and 6th.

Gracias.

I'm good with that, as it does seem consistent with my back story.

Not to mention Cole's desire to get paid.

Well, all y'all voted for a new cowpoke.

Welcome to the trail, Little One.

I was the newbie last time & found not only a warm welcome but a home away from home of sorts. Let me welcome you aboard! I know you will have a blast. This is a great group & the Judge runs a mean game of Sidewinder to boot! Cheers Meri
This message was last edited by the player at 19:32, Sun 30 Aug 2009.

Hello all!

Newbie here. Thanks for the welcome. First things first though:

*peers at Judge*

What's the deal with my name? Feeling funny today?

Anyways, I am sure the Judge will correct that slight - uhm - creativity in time. As far as i understand, i will be introduced after the adventure starts, so the secrecy could have a point. I surely am the "Little One" now. Hand me that torch, Meri.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:59, Sun 30 Aug 2009.

I did say a mean game didn't I? Here you go ole chap, one torch coming up! Cheers Meri

Welcome Pard.

How are we doing grit?  Rolling, maxing, averaging?

We are rolling using the die roller. It is only at Character Level 1 that a hero gets full grit value for a die; all the rest are random rolls.

Gracias your honor.

I was looking through the six guns supplement and saw Wyatt Earp a 14th level character with a +31 diplomacy.  Typo, Historical figure adjustment or some game mechanic I haven't seen like a Tin Star advanced class bonus.

Speaking of Diplomacy... I intended to pick up a level but it is not a class skill.  I'll still pick it up if the party needs it and since I said I would, but f anyone else has picked up diplomacy let me know.

In reply to Travis Sunday (msg #133):

In all likelihood, I'll be picking up diplomacy. It is within Cole's talent tree.

I will let you have it and be your humble translator.  Turns out Travis isn't much of a people person.

Well, given those options, I'd say it's the third one.

+31 is the correct modifier for Earp's Diplomacy. That is a combination of Skill Ranks, Class Features (Talents), Feat bonuses and Ability Modifier. It is accurate. As for your third guess, read "Flash the Badge" on page 197.

+31 Holy crap!  Did you hear that Cole. I'll definitely check it out.  I guess he never has to fight.

Okay, here is my take on a template:

Group Template
1) Most of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum (JEB stated white hat, and i myself would be grey leaning to white).
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3) Once committed see it through - unless there is new information of course
4) One for all and all for one
5)
6)

Game requirements
1) Randy Oldman has Perform Skill
2) 1 Diplomacy ("Little One" will most probably take Diplomacy)
3) 2 Navigate (JEB has 1, Silas has)
4) All require Ride
5) All require 2 Knowledge skills with 2 ranks minimum each
6) "Little One" will most probably be able to track and treat wounds (does anyone else have these skills?)

Started by Silas
1st edit by Randy
Edit by JM
Edit by Silas
Edit by Travis
Edit by Little One

In reply to Little One (msg #138):

Cole has some skill with treating wounds.

In reply to Travis Sunday (msg #137):

Yeah, based on my understanding of how all those modifier can add up, I can see it. Hell, I was surprised at some of Cole's modifiers when I started adding them up.

Soon, you fellers will start yearnin' for the good ole days back at first level, when things were simple. There's just no pleasin' some folks.

Cupla things:
* Judge, I messaged ya wit' the plans Chance has fer his comin' years.  Would you fill JEB in on 'is successes an' failures.
** I'm really, really close ta havin' my character done, really.  Judge, would ya help me create a new character entry?  'Haps weecun halt Chance's an' start up Randy's.
Okay, this's gonna make it a few things:
*** Can lethal and non-lethal damage mix, if'n lethal precedes the non-lethal?  It'd make sense that non-lethal c'aint come first.
Awright, now I just gonna say it's a bunch'a things:
**** Can a hero take skill ranks in one class if'n he's multi-classed or Advanced Classed?
***** Is this really the 'Merican old west or is this'a later centry on the world's Mu?

Non-lethal damage is totally separate from lethal. It isn't even handled the same way (see p226-227). Non-lethal damage doesn't affect grit.


What? Do you mean can a hero take ranks in a class skill for Class A, using skill points earned for Class B? Essentially, no.

But if Class A and Class B have common class skills, it's just a matter of applying the new level skill points to the same skill for the advancing class. All ranks add up.

If you want to apply Class B points to a skill belonging Class A but not Class B, then you must spend cross-class points.

JM,

I've finished my Character stats.  If you want to validate.

I need to load up on some equipment and I'm almost finished with a backstory parts of which I need to still work on with Meri and Silas.

Sure, pard. You'll haveta send it to me first.

You don't have access to the "Character Details" section?

Oh, so you updated that directly, eh?

Did you save what it looked like before you started the update?

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #147):

I have a printout at home.  I think.  Damn.  Let this be a cautionary to all.

Luckily I don't have that problem. ;-)

I'm doing the following at the bottom of my character sheet online while I'm updating the main sheet:

*3rd Level - Fast Hero 3
6 SKILL POINTS - Navigate +2, Sleight of Hand +1, Ride +1, Speak Language +1, Survival +1
1 FAST TALENT - Uncanny Dodge 1
1 FEAT - Dead Aim

Like Silas, I know that some others have been tracking possible changes and ideas outside of the character sheet; sending me notes and questions about their planned advancement. I don't know if anyone else was updating the character details in RPoL without either adding edits and leaving the original intact, or backing up the original before changing it. I hope not. I believe I had asked people to track their level by level advancement, but maybe I just imagined that.

Couldn't find the game mechanic on difference between Fair, Good and Excellent Horses.

I had scratchpads and will faithfully recreate, level by level Travis.

Can you explain difference between a fair, good and excellent horse.  I already know the first answer....$50

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #151):

Travis' character stats are complete his leveling up is on the bottom of Character details if you want to inspect.

What is the cost to modify already owned fireams, specifically custom gripping and hair triggering Travis' two Mastercraft (to be purchased) Starr Pistols?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:51, Tue 01 Sept 2009.

You take all the fun out of it when you answer your own question.

There is no mechanic for horse quality. We knew we had left that out and debated whether to add that, or cover it later in a supplement, or not to bother at all. So far, the latter has prevailed.

As a Judge, my house rule is that spending more guarantees the horse has at least average or better grit, and perhaps something else (enhanced ability, known tricks or extra feat, perhaps).

I reckon I'll just have to take yer word fer it. The Judge made some comments in there.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #156):

Scroll to the bottom your honor.

That helped, Mr. Sunday, but there is still some confusion. See my follow-up note. I don't want to evaluate the sheet as a whole until all the obvious issues are resolved. You took care of a couple, still at least one thing left.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #158):

Will comply

BTW, I've already privately communicated this to a couple of players. Seeing it happen regularly, so for everyone's benefit:

PCs don't get to accumulate Action Points for 3 levels of advancement. The assumption is that PCs have continued to use the APs over time--it's one of the ways the hero survived some tough scrapes. My house rule is that 10 or so AP is the most that characters hold at a given time. Maybe slightly more if you have just advanced one level; slightly less if you've been adventuring for a time after advancement.

Game note:
So far, I don't think anyone has expressed interest in the Lasso. The Judge didn't make it a requirement, but if you are going on a cattle drive, such a feat just might prove valuable. To use the lasso without a -4 modifier, one needs the Exotic Ranged Weapon Proficiency.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #161):

I did my part with Randy's Perform.  Some of you other buckaroo's need to step up to the plate, to mix a metaphor.

Ah.  Did not get that from my skimming of the rules.  I would rather purchase a masterwork +3 Lasso for $5.

Travis, "did not get" what? When there are multiple conversations going on, your non-referential comments are sometimes confusing.

BTW, your mastercraft mention reminds me. When you asked earlier how much MC weapons cost, is that because you didn't understand the rules on 146-147, or because you hadn't yet read them? Table 5.11 has the purchase price modifier for modifications.

I read some lasso rules which didn't refer to the -4 without exotic ranged weapon proficiency.  So I missed the reference, but was not really studying lasso stuff.

On to masterwork clarification.  Multiples add so for example a +3 masterwork pistol with hair trigger and customized handles would be 15X base purchase price with a high DC to find.  However, hiring a master craftsman to create then customize pistols is not listed though hiring master craftsmen is discussed.

Is it the same price?  I assume so.  Is there a price point where multiples don't add?

Well, the hiring of MC is really left to the Judge and roleplaying when not using the wealth system.

I'm not sure I'm intepreting your "is it the same price" question correctly, but if you mean can you use the Purchase Price modifier to determine how much it costs to modify your weapons, yes.

As for a price point where multiples don't add, that would be something that required roleplaying (if Travis were trying to get weapons modified during the course of play and he was looking for a master craftsman who had the skill he needed, we would likely play out some or all of that). If Travis wants to do some quick RP regarding his mastercraft stuff, we might could work that out. But that might do more harm than good. I'll give you the option to either:

1. Just assume he can get what he wants in the 6 years, assumin' he can afford it, paying the full multiple.

2. RP Travis' attempts to get a price break with a master craftsman, with the result dependent on RP and die rolls (who knows, maybe it's a bad day for the legendary gunsmith and Travis ends up paying even more).

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #166):

Let me think about it.  I was thinking gift from wealthy banker who I saved.  No need to Role Play I'll just ad it to my stash.  :)

I'm on a M'F'n Template, ya'll.

Let's enter this back into the discussion flow.  Little One was the last to edit.

Group Template
1) Most of us hombres fall within the gray-hat spectrum (JEB stated white hat, and i myself would be grey leaning to white).
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3) Once committed see it through - unless there is new information of course
4) One for all and all for one
5)
6)

Hats: Please edit your entry
- Silas - Gray
- JEB - White with Gray stripes
- Little One - Gray with White stripes
- Randy - Gray
- Cole - ?
- Travis - ?
- Art - ?
- Meri - ?

Game requirements Please edit #4 and #5 with your inits to confirm
1) Randy Oldman has Perform Skill
2) 1 Diplomacy ("Little One" will most probably take Diplomacy)
3) 2 Navigate (JEB has 1, Silas has)
4) All require Ride (RO, , , , , )
5) All require 2 Knowledge skills with 2 ranks minimum each (RO, , , , , )
6) "Little One" will most probably be able to track and treat wounds (does anyone else have these skills?)

The Group Template is still lacking.  A consensus on White/Gray hat has not been reached.  The majority of players want to have a Gray hat on, while only a couple have desired a White hat, at least part of the time.  Judge, do we really all need to be White or Gray or Black?  I can see White/Gray or Gray/Black working together (and against each other at times).  As long as we agree not White/Black combination (saying that makes be feel funny/awkward/ashamed), can we not go ahead?

At any rate, we need to hear from a few on the Game Req's.
- Little One said "probably take Diplomacy."  Is this still true?  Can we finalize it?
-  We're waiting on a lasso-er.  If Travis can get one Master Crafted, he might be our man.

Started by Silas
1st edit by Randy
Edit by JM
Edit by Silas
Edit by Travis
Edit by Little One
Edit by Randy 9/2 6:45p(e)

Yep, i've taken diplomacy.

In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #168):

I never said everyone had to be the "same color hat." In fact, I said I was using the hat color as a metaphor to get people talking about this. When I posted my examples back when, I didn't use the hat color as an example.

Somehow, all y'all got fixated on that.

I would suggest dropping the artificial hat color indicator and focus on a group code of conduct that everyone can agree to.

To reiterate: I don't care what the template is, as long as everyone can agree to a predefined code/orientation.

It could be:

1. We are all individualists and we don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks.
2. We will fight for dominance in the group throughout the adventure.
3. Every man for himself, all the time.
4. If disputes need to be settled, we will argue until one side prevails, because the other side(s) capitulated or were stabbed in the back. If disputes go on for more than one week, we will settle it with a lively game of rock/paper/scissors (2 out of 3).
5. We will attempt to divide ourselves into opposing groups at every opportunity.
6. If anything goes wrong, we will blame it on the Judge.

As long as you all agree to the group code, I'll know where we stand--and you will know where each other stands--and I will adjudicate the adventure appropriately. If as a group, you want to bicker all the time, so be it. But I want that agreement from every player.

I think what we need to focus on is what the GROUP is/does/acts, not the INDIVIDUALS. For example, while the group as a whole may act in the manner of a GRAY HAT, there's nothing to stop individuals from leaning towards WHITE or BLACK hat.

We should all feel free to be individuals while working within that group dynamic. I think the online venue limits how this works; in person we could hammer these things out much easier, but it stretches out here.

As Frank Zappa might have said, this is the crux of the biscuit. In this online venue, the Judge needs more to go on than a bunch of individuals, each doing their thing without regard for the others. As Silas says, a group agreement doesn't prohibit individual actions, but it will, I believe, facilitate a better group gaming experience.

The apparent difficulty in arriving at such a group template is indicative of the problem itself.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #172):


'Nuff said.

 I thought we were on # 5 of the template? Oh well, Meri is probably white hat leaning toward grey. He has no problem with the previous mentioned articles of the Template we were discussing. Cheers Meri

My view is that there hasn't been much discussion at all in regard to the template. There have been a few feeble attempts to type up a bullet point here and there, but no conversation about how the group should function.

Nevertheless, if a vote were taken on a clearly stated set of points, so be it. But I haven't seen that either.

As Randy has pointed out, it's obviously my fault.

So I guess I'll type up my own code of conduct for the group and cast my vote for each of you and be done with it.

The Judge is funny.

How about this.  Everyone and by that I mean "everyone please" chime in.

Leadership:  Every man for himself to strict chain of command and detailed orders
Travis votes for loose chain of command, subject to change.  Under fire we follow orders

Resources:  Every man for himself to total sharing of all resources.
Travis votes for every man for himself but party won't deny anyone food, shelter & weapon or ammo.  Even split of treasure.  Casual division not anal retentive.

Risk: McClellan to Custer
Travis will put his butt out there a little too far if necessary to save a pard

Aggressiveness:  Cautious to aggressive
Travis thinks we should be aggressive but not stupid

My Character is built to star in this movie: Adventures of Briscoe County Junior to Deadwood
Travis likes the middle - Silverado, Lonesome Dove

My Characters D&D Alignment is: Neutral Good leaning Chaotic

Okay, here are my 2 cents:

As far as i understand, we are setting up the group's code of conduct so that the Judge can estimate what a character would do if the player doesn't post, and so that he can align the adventure to fit the group. Both is understandable.

Alignment: If in doubt, the group as a whole rather follows the "good" path than the "bad" path. My character's D&D alignment would probably be the same as Travis', maybe more chaotic, but good.

Leadership: I agree with Travis as long as there are no suicidal or otherwise alien commands. ("You attract the fire from those 20 gatling guns so we others can pass.") Common sense should be used.

Resources: As i'm new, i'd take whatever the group wants to share. When i participate in acquiring loot, i'd like a fair share of course.

Risk: Agree with Travis.

Aggressiveness: Agreed, with emphasis on "not stupid".

Movie: I like for example Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Magnificient Seven but also most John Wayne movies. Brisco County Junior was hilarious, but i wouldn't want that magic-like technology. Has anyone seen Comanche Moon? It plays roughly 15 years before Lonesome Dove and is highly enjoyable.

Joke, joke, joke, joke, joke.  Just joshin wit ya in your own words.

 "A man's got to have a code, a creed to live by, no matter his job."
-- John Wayne

 "The Code of the West was a gentleman's agreement to certain rules of conduct. It was never written into the statutes, but it was respected everywhere on the range."
-- Ramon F. Adams

May I propose an easy template?  I don't see how something complicated is going to work.  Simply, the one with the talent takes the lead.  Let's say Little One has tracking and we need to find a calf.  Well, LO will lead us and we follow his (I'm assuming you're a 'he' but if I'm wrong, sorry) directions.  If Travis is security officer again, he sets the watch and we don't argue.  If Cole is in charge of survival, he sets the rotations and areas to hunt.  Again, the one with the talent takes the lead.  JEB has the diplomacy, I know Randy is gonna keep his mouth shut and be ready to back up the smooth-talker if things go sour.  Above all, no questions on the lead's authority, especially in front of potential friends and foes alike.

Below is a Code of the West I found at www.legendsofamerica.com.  Just for fun.  No need to read unless you wanna.

 * Don't inquire into a person's past. Take the measure of a man for what he is today.
 * Never steal another man's horse. A horse thief pays with his life.
 * Defend yourself whenever necessary.
 * Look out for your own.
 * Remove your guns before sitting at the dining table.
 * Never order anything weaker than whiskey.
 * Don't make a threat without expecting dire consequences.
 * Never pass anyone on the trail without saying "Howdy".
 * When approaching someone from behind, give a loud greeting before you get within shooting range.
 * Don't wave at a man on a horse, as it might spook the horse. A nod is the proper greeting.
 * After you pass someone on the trail, don't look back at him.  It implies you don't trust him.
 * Riding another man's horse without his permission is nearly as bad as making love to his wife.  Never even bother another man's horse.
 * Always fill your whiskey glass to the brim.
 * A cowboy doesn't talk much; he saves his breath for breathing.
 * No matter how weary and hungry you are after a long day in the saddle, always tend to your horse's needs before your own, and get your horse some feed before you eat.
 * Cuss all you want, but only around men, horses and cows.
 * Complain about the cooking and you become the cook.
 * Always drink your whiskey with your gun hand, to show your friendly intentions.
 * Do not practice ingratitude.
 * A cowboy is pleasant even when out of sorts. Complaining is what quitters do, and cowboys hate quitters.
 * Always be courageous. Cowards aren't tolerated in any outfit worth its salt.
 * A cowboy always helps someone in need, even a stranger or an enemy.
 * Never try on another man's hat.
 * Be hospitable to strangers. Anyone who wanders in, including an enemy, is welcome at the dinner table. The same was true for riders who joined cowboys on the range.
 * Give your enemy a fighting chance.
 * Never wake another man by shaking or touching him, as he might wake suddenly and shoot you.
 * Real cowboys are modest.  A braggert who is "all gurgle and no guts" is not tolerated.
 * Always fill your whiskey glass to the brim.
 * Be there for a friend when he needs you.
 * Drinking on duty is grounds for instant dismissal and blacklisting.
 * A cowboy is loyal to his "brand," to his friends, and those he rides with.
 * Never shoot an unarmed or unwarned enemy. This was also known as "the rattlesnake code": always warn before you strike. However, if a man was being stalked, this could be ignored.
 * Never shoot a woman no matter what.
 * Consideration for others is central to the code, such as: Don't stir up dust around the chuckwagon, don't wake up the wrong man for herd duty, etc.
 * Respect the land and the environment by not smoking in hazardous fire areas, disfiguring rocks, trees, or other natural areas.
 * Honesty is absolute - your word is your bond, a handshake is more binding than a contract.
 * Live by the Golden Rule.

I knew you were joking. But you didn't think I was going to pass up the chance to press my point, did you?


That would serve a portion of a template, I think, and probably effectively. But I think you would be hard pressed to apply that to everything. E.g. the group visits a saloon; the hero with the Hollow Leg feat leads because he has the talent for drinking alcohol. Heavy drinking and trouble ensue.

I think you need other considerations in the template, because it's not always about who is leading what.

I've seen various "codes of the west." Most of those published acknowledge that such a code was unwritten. But I applaud Randy on bringing up the points. It shows that there is a wide range of points you could incorporate into your group template.

A discussion and agreement on this group's code is what I continue to stress.

What specific information would make you better able to prepare adventures and encounters, satisfy the story arcs you create and handle absenteeism?

What aspects of party play/activity/philosophy would you like better defined/understood?  Would you be willing to categorize?

I can't go on.  I laughed so hard milk came out of my nose... and I am drinking coffee!

I've got dibs on this one...sounds like a job for Silas!

Filtering the Coffee out in your nose Randy? What kind of cowpoke even puts milk in his coffee? ;-)

I actually think Randy has a point which should make it into the template, if you ask me. I left out the hat colours, on the Judge's request:

Group Template
1) Most of us hombres fall within the neutral / neutral with good tendencies spectrum.
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action.
  2a) Individuals may still act to the contrary if it is within character.
3) Once committed see it through - unless there is new information of course
4) One for all and all for one
5) The one with the talent takes the lead - common sense applies.
6)

Game requirements Please edit #4 and #5 with your inits to confirm
1) Randy Oldman and Little One have Perform Skill
2) 1 Diplomacy ("Little One" has taken Diplomacy, JEB too?)
3) 2 Navigate (JEB has 1, Silas has)
4) All require Ride (RO, LO, , , , )
5) All require 2 Knowledge skills with 2 ranks minimum each (RO, , , , , )
6) Little One is able to track and treat wounds.

As to Travis' question, no, I'm not going to layout categories or ask you to pick one from column A and one from column B. I will provide my thoughts as part of the conversation.

I'm not interested in character "alignment." In the old west that could change as a man might be an outlaw in Wichita and a lawman in Denver. I wish we could get off the hat/alignment train. It seems clear that your group has good-leaning tendencies, but not "goodie-goodie". Okay. So find a way to say that simply, or with western flavor if you like, that provides an agreeable code for all players.

Maybe "Ain't none of us inclined to ill deeds, although some of us been known to fall into mischief."

Try to establish some rule or understanding for resolving disputes when your good-nature is ailin'.

As both Randy and Travis pointed out, ideas on leadership or chain of command is good.

Some general mores wouldn't hurt, especially if they have western flavor, similar to some of the items in the code Randy quoted.

Your current list isn't bad, even with my dismay over #1. I already said if you voted on whatever you got, I'd be satisfied.

Whatever state we're in with the list is academic for now.  We need others to chime in - others who haven't been able to log in lately.  I'm sure we'll hear from them soon, but we do need to hear from them.  JM can call a halt to debate at any time, of course.  Since we're off a bit from starting the adventure, this is all academic for now.

I agree that others still need to chime in.

I disagree with your conclusion that this is academic right now. I'm not going to start the adventure until such an agreement is in place. So, the adventure depends on this agreement. Of course, it also depends on people updating their characters, which is starting to drag on (2 weeks since I posted the 3-level advancement and not everyone has done the upgrade) so you have a point there. Nevertheless, if you want to wait to come to an agreement, then that is also delaying the adventure.

Mostly, people have been logging in regularly. Only two players haven't logged in within the last 24 hours. If we are to stick to the 24 hour rule, and they miss a vote, well . . . the trail can be a hard place, pard.

Awrighty.  I  suggest we take the template no further'n Sunday night.  We gotsta git a move on an' put up our o-pinions sooner'n later.

I is right out happy with the template so far.  I's hopin' we can figger what we needs to do far as leadin' an' followin'.  I ain't good with words, so I's hopin' you fellers can put pen to paper an' hash it out.  I's got your backs, you bet.

Hey all! Meri is just slow or was kicked in the head (maybe a few times in the last few years) for I do not really know how to add anything to the list. I have read it & liked it. However, I have read & liked the other ones too. My mind is just a little out of whack right now. Work has been a bit much with me putting in 91/2 to 10 hours everyday, & then running to soccer practice & piano lessons afterward. I do not/ can not get on the computer everyday during the day like some, though it would be nice.

I will still try to advance Meri by this weekend if that is still acceptable. I would really like to help but right now my mind can not wrap around it. If that is putting a strain on the game or when it starts please let me know. I will withdraw Meri as this is not my intention. I am willing to go along with the majority with whatever we decide. Cheers Meri

No, no, no.  Randy's gotta make the acquaintance of Meri.  We're not trying to get characters sorted out by this weekend, just the template.

You players can figure out the timeline. We will start whenever everyone has upgraded their characters and there is an agreement in place.

Meri, there's no reason to drop out. I understand your situation. Your statement that you will go along with the majority is enough for now. It sounds like you will be amenable to whatever code is adopted.

Silas is all updated mechanically and I've been giving the template deal a lot of thought this week. We keep going back and forth, forth and back here and I think that was one of the issues with the gameplay...it took us a long while to come to a consensus on some actions. I think rightfully so JM sees the template as a way to fix that to some degree so even if we aren't on the same page we are at least in the same book.

More thoughts and input later...

FYI to Silas, Randy, Travis and Little One,
I have reviewed your character stats and mostly things look good. There might be one or two things I would need to revisit with each of you, but nothing major. I'm going to look at them again this weekend and we should be able to get them finalized (assuming you aren't considering any further changes yourselves).

The latest version of the group template is fine, except for 2a since that's what led to controversy in the first place. We're overthinking this here, compadres.  While I understand JM's insistence on a template going forward to prevent bottlenecks in the process as we've had in the past, I think to a great extent we've already created an unwritten template.  Historical issues of contention were simply the result of getting to know each other and our individual styles of role playing (including the JM's).  Although we've been at this for more than a year, our group was experiencing new situations as late as a month ago (our first big battle).  I think the learning curve is behind us now and going forward we will act more cohesively as a team.  Nonetheless, number one on the template should be strict adherence to the democratic process.  The group majority decision is the rule of the day.  If a PC does not agree with the group decision in gameplay, we must all agree now to put egos aside, keep opinions to ourselves and get with the program, so to say. There will be no lone wolves.  Now that doesn't mean lively debate during the decision making process is discouraged, as I found this aspect of the game quite enjoyable at times.  But we must all agree to bear with the group consensus and agree to disagree, if that is the case, in a reasonable amount of time.  The JM will adjudicate 'reasonable amount of time' on a case-by-case basis and JM will have the authority to call for a final vote if there is a filibuster in process.  There's been some good work here, so let's put this behind us and vote now on the template:

Group Template
1) Neutral / neutral with good tendencies spectrum
2) Group decisions are made via quick debate and then action
3) Group consensus carries the rule of law
4) JM has the authority to call for group vote; majority vote is final
5) Once committed see it through
6) One for all and all for one
7) The one with the talent takes the lead - common sense applies

OOC: edited for double 6s. Thanks Randy.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:40, Sat 05 Sept 2009.

Jeb, I think you are as Meri would say- Spot on! I agree whole heartily. Cheers Meri

As far as I'm concerned, I agree with the template as JEB put it. Not sure if i get to vote already, but if I do: It's a YES!

In reply to James E. Beauregard (msg #193):

I vote yes.  Though the rule of law comment is a bit vague for a bunch of neutrals but I say sure.

In reply to James E. Beauregard (msg #193):

Double Sixes, Woo hoo.

Randy's got your back on it.  No wonder JEB has Diplomacy.

Neutrals can follow the laws; chaotics don't need no stinkin' laws.

Question:  Masterwork pluses for firearms are exclusively for 'to hit."

That's not a question. It's a statement.

But yes, for firearms, that statement is generally true.

EDIT: Actually, I spoke too soon. See below.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:30, Sun 06 Sept 2009.

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #200):



Oh.  let me rephrase...

Are masterwork pluses for firearms exclusively for 'to hit," ...bitch?

:)

I love that old joke.

Actually, no.

For example, "Hair trigger" doesn't provide a plus to hit. It gives a bonus to initiative.

The effective mastercraft "plusses" are a way to measure the difficulty of the modification. The mod may give different results.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:31, Sun 06 Sept 2009.

Sorry.  masterwork bonus only reffered to the masterwork pistol not to master craftsman modifications (CG, HT).

RE: Skills
Earlier, and with some players in private, I have made some notes about cross-class skills.

If you change classes during advancement (including moving to an Advanced Class), you must use the skill points for each level according to the class list for that class. Anything you take outside of the class list is cross-class requiring two points for every one rank.

The exception is that the class skills you chose at 1st level as part of your starting Occupation are always considered class skills (if I told anyone else something different earlier, my apologies).

Example
1st Level Strong
Occupation: Laborer: Demolitions, Intimidate, Ride
Demolitions 2
Handle Animal 3
Intimidate 2
Knowledge (Streetwise) 3
Ride 2

At 2nd character level, takes Tough 1
If he wants to increase Handle Animal, he must pay cross-class.
If he wants to increase Streetwise, that is a class skill for Tough, so 1 point per rank
If he wants to increase Demoltions, that is a permanent class skill for Occupation so 1/1

The Judge appreciates JEB's call for a vote on a proposed group template. He counts 5 votes for, none against (assumin' JEB votes in favor of his own proposal). That will be a majority, 'less somebody changes a vote.

The remaining 3 players may still cast a vote or add to the conversation, if desired. Heck, you could even re-vote ifn you wanted. But the Judge is taking the 5 yes, 3 abstain vote as done.

We can start the adventure once PC advancement is complete and backstories are finalized. From the Judge's perspective, here is the advancement status:

4 of the PCs are pretty much ready to play.

2 more are well underway and could be wrapped up soon if the players continue to work on it.

1 more has an early draft that needs work.

1 has had no proposed draft for advancement.

I'm good with the template.

Sounds like we have a consensus.

I'm ready to kick off.  Let me know if I can be of any assistance to anyone.

Looking forward to playing with you Little One. .. If we ever start again.

It's up to all y'all. The Judge is ready.

While discussing back story, I've asked most of you in the private threads to supply a timeline for the character's activities 1865-1871. I'm just looking for something short and sweet.

Now that a few of you have pretty good plans developed, the concise timeline will help us to match up stories and meet in Texas.

JEB has an excellent example. If he doesn't mind posting it . . .

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #210):

JEB's timeline:

July 1865: Osterfeld incident
August 1865: JEB elected sheriff of Marshfield
May 1866: JEB and Hattie Ferguson get hitched
April 1867: James E. Beauregard, JR is born
October 1868: Annabelle Beauregard is born
October 1868: joins the Vigilence Committee with Travis and Meri
April 1869: returns home to Marshfield
March 1870: appoints Meri as deputy of Marshfield, along with Owen who was made a deputy one year earlier
February 1871: receives letter from Cole regarding the cattle drive

I've developed an idea to distinguish horse quality (house rule). I want to keep it simple with a little chance to customize a horse. Here's what I'm thinking of using, after passing some ideas by a couple of players who were pestering me. If anyone sees a problematic mechanic, holler at me.

Poor
The steed has one of the following detriments:
Average Grit -3
Speed -5 feet/round

Fair
The mount has at least average grit (roll, if lower than average, becomes average)

Good
Same as Fair, plus one advantage from this list:
  Grit 4d8+6 (at least average)
  speed +5 feet/round
  1 trick (Come, Stay or Work)

Excellent
Same as Fair, plus two of the advantages from this list:
  Grit 4d8+6 (at least average)
  speed +5 feet/round
  1 trick (Come, Stay, Attack or Work)
  1 feat (Alertness, Toughness or Improved Damage Threshold)
  1 skill (Jump +2 or Sense Motive +2)

Hey there! Thanks Judge! That info is very helpful. I will do a time line for Meri later today. Another hectic Saturday for me. Be well all! Cheers Meri

Would you mind distinguishing horse sense?

Silas' Timeline

Mid 1865
Osterfield Incident

Late 1865 - Mid 1866
Works for the railroads, primarily in the Colorado, Wyoming and Nevada territories keeping workers in line, serving as security against Indian aggression and would-be robbers.

Mid 1866 - Mid 1867
Settles in Erie, Colorado Territory for a spell, working as a surface coal miner and doing other odd jobs to make ends meat; smitten with a young lady, Nancy Miller.

Mid 1867 - Late 1868
Wanders the west, meets up with Travis in California; works in and around the San Francisco area at various security jobs...railroad, stage lines, protecting gold prospectors, etc.

Late 1868 - Late 1870
Returns to Erie, Colorado Territory...marries Nancy Miller and settles into a serene, hardworking life on the frontier. Nancy dies...Silas picks up stakes and relocates to Denver.

Late 1870 - Early 1871
Denver, Colorado Territory...in a whiskey haze and chasing the dragon, Silas falls in with a bad crew; spends the better part of six months on the wrong side of justice.

Early 1871
Recieves telegram from Cole about cattle drive; cleans up and heads out of Denver.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:35, Sun 13 Sept 2009.

Don't fret, I suspect Randy won't have any.

Alrighty Judge, I reckon I'm ready whenever these other hombres are.

Yep, things are falling into place for most characters now.

Truly, there is only one PC that isn't ready, or close to being ready. Iffin' that cowpoke doesn't pony up soon, all the PCS who are ready will have to decide whether to wait--and for how long--before we hit the trail.

I note in "The Cast" the growing lengths between logon and post.  I'd say it's time to move forward.  Let our Pard meet us on the trail or let him come along on the sidelines.

All I have left to do is horse stuff.  BTW: How many tricks can a normal horse learn?

I say Saddle up!
Travis

This question has come up a few times in the PMs.

Handle Animal, p78 -- any critter can learn 3 tricks per INT point.

Horse Stats, p256 -- INT 2.

Gracias.

Any other opinions?

Chance's Time Line --

1865 Summer/Fall: Chance builds bunkhouse and chemistry workshop; establishes city council; nominates James E. Beauregard for Sheriff.
1865 Winter: Builds affordable wagons for towns folk for trading goods.
1866 Spring: Re-establish farming and work with Brown to get supplies for chemistry workshop; holds reception for JEB and Hattie's wedding, coffee served.
1866 Summer: Work with Brown to establish supplies trading from Springfield of black powder supplies; carries out nitroglycerin tests.
1866 Fall: Near catastrophic explosion at workshop burns Chance's leg, heals through winter; hires cooper to work with Gus at carpentry shop.
1867 Spring: Marries school teacher - Artemisius Cooke.
1867 Winter: Isaac "Lucky" Osterfeld is born; starts apprentice program for chemistry; declines nomination for Mayor of Marshfield.
1868 Spring: Begins trade in Springfield for black powder products.
1868 Winter: Hans "Jumpy" Osterfeld is born.  Dora and family visit from Kansas City for whole winter.
1869 Spring: Twins, Amelia and Aarika "Jolly" Osterfeld, are born; dynamite production commences.
1869 Winter: Dynamite production perfected; Hans dies of an unidentified stomach ailment.
1870 Spring: Second explosion at workshop causes death of 17 yo apprentice. Rebuilding includes addition to house, master bedroom downstairs and conversion upstairs.
1870 Summer: Tab "Happy" Osterfeld is born.
1870 Fall:  Chance offered teaching position at Mizzou Department of Chemistry, Chance sells explosives production to take position.

Over the course of our first few nights together on the trail, you would learn..

The Butterfield Overland Stage Route was discontinued because of the war and in the Southwest mail was transported on horseback.  During that time Fort Bowie was built.  Travis and Meri departed the fellowship and through the fall of 1867 helped reconnect Arizona to the rest of the country while supporting the efforts of Ft Bowie.

In 1867 through early 1869 Travis met up with Silas and operated out of San Francisco.  They spent time as private law men hired by neighborhoods to mete justice.  They also spent time working with the railroad industry and the prospecting community.

When speaking of his time with Meri and Silas, there's an inordinate amount of laughter and story telling.  Typical banter might include "Then Meri said, Old Chap, that wasn't a horse that was the minister's wife,"  or "I knew with Ol' Hank we'd survive the gunfight, but how we got through the hangover the next morning I'll never know."

In 1869-1870 Travis headed East and found himself in the Indian Wars.  From the Battle of Summit Springs with fellow scout William "Buffalo Bill" Cody to the Marias Massacre.  Travis saw a lot.  Probably too much.  He speaks openly and honestly about his time. You can tell this was a life changing experience.  His deep cynicism further reinforced.

After that one can surmise that Travis drifted before arriving at the trail head with a fine horse and a fancy six shooter.  What little reputation precedes him indicates Travis was paid for his skills but the black hats would have paid him much better.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:05, Tue 15 Sept 2009.

Here's Meri's background:

Mid 1865
Osterfield Incident

Late 1865 to early 1867 Travels west with Travis & works for the mail route. Travis & Meri work mainly from horseback.

1867 Meri Joins the 7th Calvary as a Civilian Scout. He works along side another Scout, James Butler Hickok. From him Meri is taught the cross draw method & starts wearing two guns, butts facing forward. Meri's guns of choice are Welby's not Colts. He stays only a time before heading Northwest into Wyoming Territory.

Late 1867 Meri is separated from a group  of settlers traveling west. With his horse dead from the elements & him soon to follow, the Englishman is taken in by a friendly tribe of Cheyenne. Rumor has it that he married an Indian woman who later died. He is nursed back to health & then continued on to Laramie Wyoming

Late 1868- Meri meets up with Jeb in Laramie. The two watched with some distaste as "Big" Steve Long, Con Moyer and Ace Moyer ran rough shod over the city. Long became the Sheriff. On October 28, 1868 the twain joined Albany County sheriff & rancher N. K. Boswell's "Vigilence Committee". They overwhelmed the three brothers, and lynched them at an unfinished cabin down the street.

In 1869 to early 1870- Meri with Travis as scouts (off & on) headed East and found themselves in the Indian Wars.  They to participated in the Battle of Summit Springs with their fellow scout William "Buffalo Bill" Cody.  However both men became angry with the killing of women and children, leading to a vow to never accept employment from the Army after their pleas for Mercy were ignored at the Marias Massacre.

Early 1870-Meri heads east back to Missouri. In March 1870 Jeb appoints Meri as deputy of Marshfield, along with Owen who was made a deputy one year earlier.

February 1871: receives letter from Cole regarding the cattle drive!

Cheers Meri
This message was last edited by the player at 01:59, Tue 15 Sept 2009.

In reply to Chance Osterfeld (msg #223):

"coffee sreved"  nice touch.

Okay, these back stories are all nice, but here's one of the reasons I asked for the timelines--people can't be in two places at once. It's not a big deal, but for example:

JEB and Meri list their time in Laramie in 1868 with the Vigilance Committee. They both list Travis as being there, but Travis is in California in 1868, according to his back story.

Probably, an edit to Meri's 1868 note, substituting "JEB" for "Travis" -- along with an edit to JEB's story removing Travis from the 1868 Vigilance Committee -- would rectify that, assuming that indeed Travis was never in Laramie.

------------------

Also, I've asked Cole to begin some roleplaying with his letters/telegrams home and to Marshfield about the cattle drive. JEB and Meri will easily get the word as they are in Marshfield at the time. Travis and Silas will need to get that relayed to them by JEB and Meri . . . or something like that. I would like to see that communication be part of the roleplaying--after all, this is a missive-based game, so why not roleplay the in-game missives?

Cole can do that privately, if he wants, or publicly, in this forum.

EDIT: Or if people are ready, I could create the new chapter so the initial RP could start there.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:39, Tue 15 Sept 2009.

Yeah, I liked that too, but I liked it better when Chance spelled it correctly.

In reply to Meriwether Lewis Smythe (msg #225):

Nice Meri.

Thanks Travis & edited Judge. Cheers Meri

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #222):

As much as I don't want no pardner to feel unwanted, well, them cattle gotta git to market.  Fast horses'll git caught up quick-like.  Hell, if'n we gotta, we can meet up in a cow town along the way.

I'm guessin' I ain't got no differ'n opinion; just wanna kick up some dust.  So, how 'bout we meein' at a saloon in San Antone to make it easy?  (I like easy.)

Cole says you'ns fellers is good folk.  Seems you'ns rode with 'em and fought with 'em.  I ain't had no man stand for me like Cole does for you'ns.  I guess friends a good measure of a man - makes me eager to meet you'ns.

I heard something about a feller you'ns went to Mizzou with.  Like he ain't no drinker.  A man don't share a whiskey don't know where he stands with ya.  You'ns ain't gotta worry 'bout that with me - I drinks and spits and kisses the girls.  Don't thump no bibles neither.  I don't care for church and church don't care for me; even-Steven.

So, pards, if'n I may, git off'n your asses and hitch up in San Antone.

Randy

In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #231):

<Dr. Venkman> Nice to meet you... Randy.  Is Chance in there?  I want to talk to Chance... or maybe Zoul. </Dr. Venkman>

In reply to Travis Sunday (msg #232):

Ain't Chance that feller what wanted to save them children by walkin'em cross them Ozarks.  Best give them children good bed, good clothes, good home; don't need no book smarts to know that.  That feller, Chance, thought he's a smart one, didn't he.  Smart ain't smart when dumb things done.

Now you mention it, I been havin' dreams I'm this Frenchie called Charles.  Silly feller thinks he can bed any woman he pleases - seems he don't please every woman he beds, though.  He's got these two pals: one don't like his hair, other don't know his Bible.  They got somethin' gonin' 'bout as rift with baby and hags and wolves and magic and such.  Damn, dreams don't make a licka sense never.  'Nuff 'bout fantasy, gotta stick to the real world to git things done.

Mama, Fair Mary, tells me before she died, "git your money first, else you ain't got no money to git," she says.  Welp, I guesses that means, take care'a business first, else business'll take care'a you.  No sense dreamin' when work's to be done.  Them steers ain't gonna keep on trail without us.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:18, Tue 15 Sept 2009.

Gotta agree with this and what Randy says later...might as well get started. Them lolly-gaggers can catch up to us on the trail.

That banter gave me a good laugh this morning...thanks.

In reply to Silas Walker (msg #234):

I concur.

I abstain from voting on this, as I am new. So don't wait on my vote.

Ha! That is exactly what I use to do as a newbie. I will continue to abstain as my character is nearly finished but I could wait on the others as well. I say! Majority rules what? Cheers Meri

Little One, them longhorns only listen to ya when ya grab their horns.  Sooner ya do it, sooner they listen.

If'n ya got a opinion, well, I says say it.  Your name's on The Cast, ya gots votin' rights - ain't nobody minds a opinion.  Speak up!  Hey, I heard this Limey say once, "stop whisperin', start shoutin'."  Feller is a singer and plays that guitar - Thom his name, yeah, Thom York if'n I remembers right.

My opinion my good fellow is that I would be happy with either choice you see. I said I would be along for whatever the majority thought most pleasant. I thought you Yanks would be pleased with my statement. Very Democratic what? Cheers Meri

August 1865: Cole sticks around Marshfield enjoying the hospitality of the towns folk

September 1865: Cole leaves Marshfield and heads home to see his family. After what happened to the family Osterfeld, Cole thinks he'd best make sure his sister and parents are ok. Before Cole  leaves, he gives Jeb and Owen his family's address.

October 1865: Cole discovers his sister has married and is a few months pregnant. Regretfully, his new brother-in-law had been killed by a stranger with a circular scar on his left cheek. OUt of concern, Cole decides to stick around until the birth of his nephew.

April 1866: Cole's sister gives birth to a little girl named Susan. Guess Cole was wrong, wasn't a boy after all.

July 1866: Feeling restless Cole leaves town

October 1866-October 1867: Cole finds odd jobs working Ranches and riding protection for stagecoaches. During that time, he discovered that coaxing a little more distance out of his rifle served him well.

Jan 1868: Cole sees that Bart is getting up there in years. The kids at the McPherson ranch have taken a shine to Bart, so Cole decides it would be best to leave him there.

May 1868: Cole ends up in South Arkansas. Finds 'hisself another pup. Names him Jack.

August 1868: Tired of whoring it up in saloons, Cole begins to court Jane Gally, a local innkeeper's daughter.

December 1868: After a terrible misunderstanding regarding, well, whores, Cole decides it might be best to leave town in a hurry. The timin' just wasn't right with Jane.

Spring 1869: Cole makes his way to Mississippi. He discovers the joys of riverboat gambling, and re-discovers, whoring. Must forget Jane!

Fall 1869: Cole is quickly reminded that gambling can be just as  dangerous as the trail. Particularly, after a long lucky streak. Some fellers just don't take kindly to losing. Sheriff decides to "suggest" Cole leave town for a while 'fore someone gets shot, again.

April 1870: Cole, Buck and Jack finds themselves in San Antonio. He joins the No Buffalo outfit, driving Cattle north to Abilene. Nice place to lay low and make some money while things settle down in Mississippi. 'Sides, being on the trail is where Cole feels most at home.

Fall 1871: Figuring his old friends might appreciate some opportunities in Texas, Cole sends a letter addressed to the Osterfeld Homestead addressed to both Chance and Jeb.

To: Osterfeld Homestead, Marshfield, Missouri

Chance, Jeb

It has been a long time, hasn't it?! Boy do I have an offer for you and the fellers! I'm hopin', you know how to reach Jeb, Silas, Meri, Art and Travis? I bet all of 'em could use some time on the range. The whole lot were an awfully soft bunch! If you have trouble locating Travis, I seem to recollect him saying something about the telegraph and the San Francisco office, just before he left Marshfield? Silas just up and disappeared one day, so I don't rightly know how to find him.

I'm down here in San Antonio running cattle with some good men. We call ourselves the No Buffalo Outfit. The trail boss told me that he is looking for some ol' boys to hire on for the next cattle next run to Abilene. Pay is 'bout $75. Maybe more, depending... When I heard that, I thought who better than my old trail 'pards? Y'all gotta be here by mid-June, though! So, get your asses movin' and come on down! Hell, it has been a LONG while. I think it's 'bout time we all hit the trail, again!  I just hope you broke-ass cowboys have horses, this time! Me, Buck and Bart got damn tired of walking everywhere with you sorry excuses for cowboys! Ha!

If you're interested, come on down and ask for me or Randy Oldman. Randy is in the Outfit and is a good man on the trail. You can't miss 'im, he's a biggun'.

Cole
No Buffalo Outfit
San Antonio

Spot on! Spot on I say!

Little One throws humility out the window. "I vote for moving on then. The faster you cowpokes get the cattle moving, the quicker I'll be able to join you."

And great timeline, Cole. It put a smile on my face.

WESTERN UNION SAN ANTONIO STATION

TO: MR C TRAYNE, NBO

I ACCEPT OFFER <STOP>

WILL ARRIVE 2ND WEEK IN JUNE <STOP>

EMBRACED SOBRIETY? <STOP>

GIVEN UP GAMBLING? <STOP>

CONSIDERING MARRAIGE? <STOP>

T SUNDAY <END OF MESSAGE>

Nicely done, Cole. I enjoyed the letter to Chance and JEB.

And I enjoyed everyone's timelines. The Judge is grateful for the player participation in advancing the plot and timeline, rather than the Judge unilaterally jumping ahead without context. For me, this stage of the game has been interesting and fun (even iffin I did have to cajole a few pards to get things done).

Now we move on. I'm creating a new chapter forum and will post an introduction. It would be nice if Cole were to re-post his missive to Marshfield in that forum, along with Travis' telegram and anything else folks want to post about getting the news and making their way down to San Antone.

I hope that Art will re-join, but depending on the when, we'll just have to figure out how.

And indeed, Little One will join once the herd is on the move.

I see that not everyone who upgraded a character has posted the upgrade in the character details, plus most haven't updated the Bio line with new grit, AP, etc. Please do.

And if you bought a Good or Excellent Horse and ain't chosen the benefits, do it right quick 'fore the Judge decides for you.

Dang JM, just reminded me I need to buy and figure out my horse qualities...where the heck was that again???

In reply to Silas Walker (msg #248):

Message 212.

Randy Oldman's Timeline (as far as you know)

1867 – Randy fought in some staged fights for part of the take.  He proved well suited and did a fine job of acting as if he were really beaten by a smaller man.
1868 – Randy finally got to fight a real fight.  He positively pulverized his opponent.  He fought in a 'come as you are' fight throughout a night; he won his fights, but fell short of the title.
1869 – Randy served with Major Gray as the trail boss with the No Buffalo Outfit.  Major Gray is a hard, no nonsense man, but he also has a reputation for fairness.  Randy did well his first drive.
1870 Summer – Cole Trayne and Randy Oldman met as hands on a cattle drive with the No Buffalo outfit.  They drove from San Antonio to Abilene.  Cole and Randy drove the remuda back to San Antonio through the autumn.
1871 Summer – Third ride with the No Buffalo Outfit.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:31, Sat 19 Sept 2009.

I will be experimenting with the 24 hour rule in these early stages. I'll move the plot along every day or so. My intention isn't to cut off roleplaying or character interaction, but neither will I be waiting around for it. As we did in the later in the Jonas adventure, I expect there will be some non-linear discussion and that's fine, as long as it doesn't contradict or make problematic any plot advancement that has already occurred.

Good to hear Judge...I think as long as there is interaction or stuff going on that's being enjoyed, let it roll. However let's not lolly-gag when nothing is happening or while waiting for one person to respond.