Artemus’ take on Cole’s points

While some treasure gitin’ is fun, it’s really only on the short term. I see the game as journey, not a destination. Art has everything he needs. He’s thinking about taking another Colt to match the one he has. But he wants only what he can carry. Increased abilities are what I suppose he desires. Two things for Artemus that came in very handy were his binoculars and his lantern, both of which were purchased with money that came from selling hides and food.

As a mini adventure it would be fun to play a saloon equipped riverboat owner, maybe we could get the judge DM a scenario such characters.
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I didn’t have a problem with the die rolling save the shittiness of the rolls themselves, and occasionally not getting that the judge needed me to make one. Prerolls are good for that.
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Initially I wrote up a spreadsheet and copied it to my character sheet (which complained that it contained tabs but took it none the less) and kept my running total there. Here is an excerpt from one part.

   Food 3.5 days saddle bag 0.5 $30.00 $15.00
    - 1 day rations (see 1a msg #699)
    - 1/2 day for July 10
   - 1/2 day for July 11  (see 1b #486)
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OOC comments: Though you said over use, I got the idea that any use was what you didn’t like. I think it clearly got out of hand, but that wasn’t really an OOC problem, that was good old fashion argumentation. A little is the equivalent of the quasi-insulting banter that normally takes place in a gaming session.

"Overflowing" and "big bags of loot" is not exactly what I had in mind. Those words over-simplify and obscure my real meaning. To be clear, considering the amount of time we've spent in the game, not gaining enough money to rent a decent room at the end of the adventure was a bit of a disappointment. Still, I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the adventure. All I'm trying to say is that there are some aspects of the game that I would have preferred to see emphasized a bit more. That doesn't mean that other aspects of the game would have to be emphasized a bit less. I think mutual exclusivity is not our only option here.

For me, the purity of role-play only gets me so far. There has to be an emphasis on a goal. And, there should be an adequate reward for achieving that goal. Admittedly, "adequate" reward is very subjective. Some might consider simply surviving an adequate reward. Other's might suggest that something a bit more than that is in order. I guess finding that balance is the job of the judge, taking into account (of course) the players' expectations. We are partners in this, after all.

Character advancement is good and I'm not trying to de-value that. But, that is only one way to measure achievement.

To me, playing a game is as much about winning (i.e. achieving the goal of the adventure/scenario), as it is about playing. Or, secondarily, if we fail to achieve the goal, then I'd measure degrees of success in terms of how we pursued the goal. If we failed to meet our goal due to internal bickering and strife, then we absolutely lost. Alternatively, if we played well in pursuit of our goal, yet still lost, then degrees of success come into play and I can live with that.



The Hattie example was a construction used to illustrate a more general point regarding the use of rolls. My intent was to say IF she was not hiding the spot roll  should not be necessary. More specifically, if the character thought she wasn't hiding, then it is reasonable to expect the roll to be unnecessary.



Die rolling in combat situations or related urgent circumstances is enjoyable. Even when the rolls suck! Rolling die, on a regular basis, for more mundane character activities, not so much. At least when it becomes (a subjective measure, I'll admit) too much.




I think the book-keeping AND the over-use of OOC comments (within the gaming forums) detracted from the role play, primarily during the less "action-oriented" parts of the adventure. I may be mistaken here, but looking back on the adventure, I seem to recall a significantly lower amount of book-keeping and distracting OOC commentary during those times of the adventure when we were actively engaged in encounters. It wasn't until the quiescent periods (relatively speaking, of course) of the adventure when the book-keeping and the OOC commentary began to become much more noticeable. I don't think that was a coincidental.

I think some of the previous comments I have read regarding strategically moving things along, speaks to that point.

And, to be clear, I have absolutely no problem with keeping track of bullets and such during a combat situation or other similar encounter. That only makes sense. In fact, in those instances it actually enhances game play -- at least in my view. I thought I had addressed that sufficiently, in my prior post. My issue with book-keeping is more general in nature.

I will suggest a "New Rule" (if I might borrow from Bill Maher): How about banning OOC commentary from the playing forums, completely? Let's restrict that kind of commentary to the OOC forum, entirely? If someone requires clarification of the rules or a situation, then how about using private excerpts, within the gaming forums, to the Judge for that? I think this will help encourage folks to focus on making their characters do their speaking and acting for them. As opposed to using OOC commentary to effect (either intentionally or not) the flow of the game. If someone has some clever OOC commentary to make, then do it in the OOC forum, exclusively.

While I don't like the off-topic OOC stuff in the gameplay forum, I think OOC stuff that is game related (rules questions, clarifications, etc.) should remain for simplicity sake. Take the non-game related elsewhere.

I realize that. I meant it doesn't alter things, for me, personally. I should have been more clear on that point.

However, with respect to Cole, that means he should have a number of years to acquire a new horse and a new dog, as well. It also means that he could have plenty of opportunity to train both, as well. I also realize that depending on Cole's circumstances, he could end up with neither at the end of a few years. I guess this all depends on how you, as the judge, adjudicates the passage of time.

Agreed. Treasure gittin' is lots of fun. But, yes, only a part. There is the journey (role-play) and the character's advancement to consider, too. I think all should be thrown into the mix.

I've since expanded on this point in subsequent messages.


Yeah, I've just not taken the time to create a spreadsheet that would greatly ease the book-keeping burden. But, it would be great to have one though...

I was thinking that kind of stuff could be done with private excerpts to the judge, within the public messages. If the judge finds that he is receiving multiple messages from other players, addressing the same topic (or not), then he could post a public message, addressing the issue, in the gaming forum.

Still, there is something to be said for simplicity. So, I'm on board with your suggestion, as well. My primary point is your last sentence.

I think you're trying to keep the reading to a minimum ;-)

I have one other suggestion that I would like everyone to consider. It is actually an extension of a prior set of posts initiated by Travis, I believe.

As I recall, Travis mentioned that one of the things he found that he missed in playing this game is the lack of interactivity (table top gaming, beer, and pizza) of the medium. I see his point. There is much to be said of the social aspect of gaming (hangin' with the fellas, etc..). I had mentioned we could perhaps achieve some of that via instant messaging (IM). Admittedly, we all seem to log in at various parts of the day or night, so this might NOT work at all. I, for one, can't commit to logging in at a pre-determined time every day. I expect none of us can. Clearly, though, there are times when some of us are logged in at the same time.

Anyway, I thought it might be worth considering...

It might be cool to organize a private chat group via any established multi-platform IM mechanism (google talk, IRC, whatever...). When we log into rpol we could simultaneously log into the chat group. This would allow us a degree of interactivity while playing that we lack now.

Just a suggestion, though. I figured it would be worth mentioning since the judge was soliciting input from everyone.

Got that right!

And, if we were on IM we could be chatting, right now!

OOC stuff in the game forum should just flat-out make sense...no reason me keeping something private to JM only when others might benefit from the question...just keep the off-gaming topic crap outta there.

So chiding Cole for taking grown men on a potty break. . . that belongs in the main forum. Suggesting 3 shakes, that's OOC.

Gittin' treasure ain't as 'portant ta me.  I likes tha battles an' such; tell me y'all wuzint imprest with Silas' a-mazun shootin'.  Treasure's right nice, but we'z playin' real men, not 18-72 fighters with Bracers of Ogre-power, so encumbrance iz a real concern.

I likes tha role-playin'.  It just gits a bit much to carry on a conversashun in this forum.  Maybe battle commintz shud be lim-tid to whut ya can sound out in two seconds.  Other speakin' otta be whut ya can say in 10 seconds.  Speakin'a speakin', id be nice ta see speech closer ta the times an educashun level a da fellers; figrin out whut a man say'd iz part da fun.

Chattin' on-line iz a bad idea (surrey 'bout dat Cole), I thinks.  The flow control wud be down rite impossbull ta reg-u-late, not ta menshun cordinate.

I'd just like ta see da 'ventures be lighter.  I know's dis ain't whut ole Judge Messin'-whit-cha has in mine, but swurth sayin' n-e-wayz.  That thar newsy-paper, The Fort Griffin Echo, Vol. 1, No. 1 has dem Cinema Styles thair on page 32.  Those-id be fun ta use, but ain't no sense when everthangs gotta be so serious-like.

I'm sayin' id be "fun, fun, fun, in the sun, sun, sun."

One of my ideas about advancing in time, is that yes, indeed, your character will have been able to acquire new guns, horse, etc. Bear in mind, that if we go to 1872, you still won't be able to have a Colt Peacemaker, or Lightning, or a Winchester '73, but those loom ahead in the next time jump  . . .

I'm intrigued by the "treasure" discussion. So far, it sounds like Cole is the only one who desires "treasure." Your point about exclusivity is well-taken, but if my "big bags of loot" is over-simplification, then please be more specific.

What amount of "treasure" would have made this more appealing for Cole? Be specific, in terms of the historical time period.

While I leave that question open to you, in all seriousness, I will reiterate that in my opinion, the spoils the party (not Cole himself) acquired were commensurate with the adventure.

1. Lots of guns (enough for each character to step and claim a weapon)
2. Lots of ammo (enough to replenish existing weapons and load new weapons)
3. Small amounts of money (subsistence amounts along the journey)
4. A homestead where a feller was welcome to find a bed and sleep under a water-tight roof (true, it belonged to one PC, but it was clear to the Judge that everyone was welcome there). Better than renting a room somewhere.
5. Free lodgings and high-falutin' meal in Lesterville, including for Buck.
6. A barn where Buck could rest comfortably for as long as Cole wanted to stay (assuming I read my Chance's right).

So, from the Judge's perspective, the only thing missing is coins, gold, currency. So how much money would have made it worthwhile to Cole?

It's a fine suggestion. But for fuck-sake, we couldn't even get everyone to log in every 48 hours to keep things moving. So I agree with Chance on this one: downright impractical.

In a western game, I could really give a fart less about treasure, the journey, interplay and white hat/black hat/grey hat is the thing for me.

Pondering the future of GTTM today got me thinking that a location based "adventure" might be interesting with the PC's knowing the players in town, etc. Kind of inspired by Deadwood where you interact with the same NPC's.

Don't know what JM has in mind and I'm game for anything, just spewing brain juice.

Hey all! So the starting year of our next adventure will be 1870? Will we all meet up once more or will we have to travel to our destination? Also, I feel that Travis & I were shooting for the same type of advancement. If it is okay with Travis, maybe we could have teamed up a time or two on various jobs in the past? Thanks Meri

Hey Silas! I like that idea as well. However, I am game for whatever the Judge has planned. I think it is awesome that I can continue to play Meri in the future! Cheers Meri

So, as there seems to be a consensus for continuing, as well as little (or no) objection to advancing in time, here's what I propose:

We advance to 1871 or 1872 (I'm still thinking about the granularity in that regard).

The players who wish to keep their characters will advance as I had described. One level for the Jonas adventure; two levels for the time spent between Jonas and where we resume. Existing characters will advance from the existing stats, no backwards re-statting, only advancement-related changes.

The players who wish to start a new character (namely the player previously known as Chance) will develop a 4th level character.

We will all agree as a group on how the existing characters will be reassembled (more on that forthcoming, as I now know what each continuing character intends to do at the end of the Jonas adventure).

All players agree to a minimal group template, such as (and I mean that literally, "such as," not "precisely") . . .

1. We are all law-abiding cowpokes.
2. We act when we see injustice.
3. We follow the agreed-upon leader's orders (PC or NPC), unless those orders contradict #1 or #2
4. We resolve disputes by majority vote.

We can post our ideas and come to consensus on the template here online--in this forum or one created for that purpose.

(BTW, I would be happy to go another direction with the group template, as long as there is a consensus; for example, #1, #2 and #3 could be: "We are all no-account, scofflaws. We exploit every situation for our own gain. Any one of us would stab the leader in the back to take over if the time was right.").

All PCs must have the Ride skill with at least 2 ranks.

All PCs must have two "everyday" Knowledge skills with at least 2 ranks (such as Knowledge: Popular Culture or Knowledge: Current Events or Knowledge: Theology/Philosophy or Knowledge: Streetwise).

To foster party balance: Someone should have some sort of Perform skill (sing, dance, instrument). At least one PC must have Diplomacy. At least two characters must have Navigation. These are Judge prerogatives. PCs can work together to make sure someone has each of these.

The group will be involved in a cattle drive when we start. I don't want to give details now, but that will be the framework. So skills/feats, etc. that aid in that line of work should be included in your advancement.

Every character will have a horse (could be owned, could be a horse used specifically for the drive, but owned by someone else, e.g. an NPC). All characters will have $700 to outfit themselves as desired (based on availability in 1872). You don't have to pay for the mount, unless you want it to be your personal horse; and Cole may still have Buck). You don't have to buy saddle/tack unless you want it to be your own). Whatever is left is the cash the character has on hand.

The Judge will work with PCs (singly or in groups that might have reason to be together) to work out backstories that culminate in a reunion.

We will have a 24 hour posting rule. The Judge may advance the plot as he sees fit while keeping that posting rule in mind.

The essential flavor of the milieu won't change. It will be a gritty, hardnose, environment. The goin' through the mill idiom will continue to summarize the general atmosphere.

Feel free to debate these starting point ideas.

The way I see it, cash enough for a 2-4 weeks in a decent place, with meals, saloon money and a little bit of spending money for incidentals (cigars, whoring, etc..), that would be a good place to start.

I wasn't aware of an offer of free lodging in Lesterville. Apparently, I missed that. But, that works, as well.

Other less obvious forms of treasure would be welcome, as well. Truthfully, not too many things come to mind, at the moment. But, I'll give it a shot:

1) Maps or letters that could contain valuable information could be interesting.
2) An offer to re-shoe my horse or provide Cole a new saddle.
3) Reward money for taking down Tate (Money, yes, but logical within the framework of the story, I should think)
4) Documents (deeds to land, wills, etc...) that could prove valuable to sell or to return to the original owner
5) Watches, jewelry, antiques, etc... Another form of cash perhaps, but items of value nonetheless.

As I write this, I can't help but feel quite mercenary. But, screw it, it's a game, I can be a greedy selfish bastard if I want to! Not everyone can be Quai Chiang Kane or Lucas McCain.

No argument here. Just thought I would put it on there since you were soliciting input.

Now that we're time jumping I don't need "treasure."  I think of Travis like Max the Road Warrior.  Every time we see him he's basically the same.  Different vehicle, low on food, heavy on weapons.  Wandering about.

That said if it is critical, I would suggest a game mechanic compromise.  In Shadowrun one could purchase a lifestyle.  For X dollars you could purchase homeless, poor, middle class, rich, super rich for a  year.  In this case perhaps as "treasure" the judge could offer a feat for a lifestyle or offer enough dollars to guarantee a lifestyle for the next chapter.  Bookkeeping would be forgone.  Characters in the middle class are at the boarding house, homeless in the streets, Rich have a room and bath at the hotel, super rich would own a house or be staying with the governor.  Regardless, whether you purchase a lifestyle as treasure or character feat or are rewarded by the judge  you presume he has enough to maintain room, board, entertainment and clothing for his lifestyle.

Travis would probably start off this round with the coins in his pocket.  Meri and Cole I would imagine would be living much better.  Cole would be keeping a gambling stake and both would be staying in the nice rooms at the hotel.   All of us would not be the same.  Based on skills, feats and intentions for the off years I would ask the judge to spread some wealth to those whose character would naturally earn it.

Travis would be happy to do some of the intervening years with Meri and others.

I agree with the template but will only to commit to it for use with the 24 hour rule.  In character Travis reserves the right to behave as he sees fit.  For example, he didn't wait for a vote to head off to face Tate.  Once 24 hours pass, I accept any outcome or judge decided/assigned action consistent with the template.

Actually, such a mechanic (not exactly as you describe, but similar) is already built in to S:R (the Wealth System that is part of the OGL) to facilitate the kind of gaming Travis describes. In S:R, we added the Cold Hard Cash system for a more realistic old West experience. I prefer the Cold Hard Cash, although I don't object to the Wealth System. For now, I'd rather stick with Cold Hard Cash. As we progress, we could slide into the kind of system Travis proposes.


Agreeing with the template doesn't mean a character can't do as he sees fit. It means that all players agree that this is the general code of conduct for the group (whatever that code is, I'm not interested in setting it for you, so your comment "I agree with the template" doesn't mean much yet, as there is no template and in fact I suggested a dichotomy of examples to illustrate that the template can be whatever you want it to be, as long as the players agree to it.) It was clear to the Judge that the mix of character orientations during the Jonas adventure made gameplay problematic. I think a template will reduce (not eliminate) differences of opinion that slow down the gaming, or make group actions difficult.

The most interesting thing to me about western game is the Gray Hat (or Grey Hat, depending on your continent).


I was thinking along similar lines. Not quite as location-specific as Deadwood, but my idea of a cattle drive scenario provides two known locations: where the drives originate and where they conclude. As well as known points in between, assuming the heroes have driven this route before (which is what I'm thinking). This idea also facilitates the reunion of characters--one or more of the characters has been on a successful drive and recruits more to join. The requests can come from face-to-face meetings, telegraph, letters delivered by stage, etc.

Oh boy, remind me to never have you negotiate for me!