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17:35, 8th May 2024 (GMT+0)

No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem.

Posted by Judge MessalenFor group 0
Judge Messalen
GM, 2463 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Mon 23 May 2011
at 12:37
  • msg #18

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Travis Sunday:
Did we miss any interesting encounters?

Judge Messalen:
You experienced every encounter that the Judge had planned. However, they turned out the way they did because of character actions.
EDIT: I cleaned up typos in my above statement so it now makes sense.

I should add that there were a few encounters I hadn't planned, which took place.

1. The battle at the Red River was Ayasha's idea. I folded that into my plan for the cattle drive. I had intended to have some sort of significant battle, whether with Indians, Outlaws, Comancheros or whatever. Her suggestion fit well and I worked with her to craft the encounter. The way we played it wasn't completely according to her original idea, but it included strong elements of her suggestion with my own modifications for the adventure. I will further say that the battle with Yuma as it turned out was completely unplanned. There was every possibility that Yuma was taken down before he ever had a chance to return (or that indeed he would have no reason to return by himself). Ayasha and I set the stage for the battle at the River, but there was no pre-determined outcome. The Judge played the Indian Chief as he perceived as logical based on the circumstances. The battle with Yuma against all the heroes was extemporaneous. Meri's death was of his choosing. He was down to 1 point of damage in the first skirmish and chose to re-engage, with the Judge's warning that it COULD mean it would be Meriwhether's last hurrah (and a brilliant one it was at that; once again the Judge tips his hat to the Englishman).

2. The re-introduction of Artemus wasn't planned. Art indicated an interest to rejoin the game. The players were at a point where the Judge could make that happen and keep it internally logical to the game. It became a way for characters to make a contact in Wichita to further the plot, while reintroducing a PC. Meanwhile, it was a logical place for Father Deeds to join, too. The player had chosen to play Yellow Sanders until we had a good opportunity to add his new character. So both of those events in Wichita were originally unplanned. I had a little time to devise the encounter(s) but they were obviously done on-the-fly, in terms of the whole adventure.

3. The re-introduction of Ayasha also wasn't planned. I told Ayasha from the beginning that I wouldn't be engineering any outcome of the battle between the Cheyenne and the NBO. I said I hoped it would work out in a way that allowed her character to join the PCs (and that I had ideas of how that could happen), but that we would have to see how things transpired. To digress for a moment, as it happened, events in the battle made it possible for her to survive, but as she knows and as she sweated out till nearly the end, someone needed to save her. There was a race against a ticking clock for someone to Stabilize the Cheyenne woman. Anyway, she decided of her own free will not to stay with the characters. Then later, she asked to re-join the game. Again, we were in a place where I saw an opportunity to make that happen. So the encounter in Abilene was put together quickly in my mind. Again, set the stage, see what happens. You all did the rest.
Travis Sunday
player, 1324 posts
His art is death
D: 19 G:41/10 MDT:12 A:24
Mon 23 May 2011
at 14:28
  • msg #19

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

I assume the cattle were rustled because they could be.

I recall doing nothing because the Major told me to do nothing.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2464 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Mon 23 May 2011
at 15:38
  • msg #20

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Travis Sunday (msg #19):

Exactly. Good answers.

Of course, at that time of the adventure, the Judge didn't know whether the PCs would obey the Major's commands. It was quite possible that one or more of the men rode off on their own to pursue the Comancheros. JEB seemed ready to do that. He didn't, but such an action was a real possibility in the Judge's mind.

So, that encounter that served several long term implications for the adventure, with the Judge putting it out there for the characters to react to, including their reaction to the Major's orders.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:49, Mon 23 May 2011.
Randy Oldman
player, 717 posts
D:16 G:31 MDT:18 A:21
He'll box your ears!
Mon 23 May 2011
at 18:18
  • msg #21

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

I'd like to take the opportunity to talk about Randy (duh) and how the others perceived him.

It seemed a common practice to consider Randy slow or stupid.  He's certainly uneducated, but not dumb.  He has only average intelligence.  Having said that, only sometimes were Randy taken seriously.

He was a man that followed orders.  Rojas told him to take care of the cat-wagon owner -- he did with deadly results.  Randy puffed up against the major once, but backed down when he remembered his place in the pecking order.  Randy was a half-step from stabbing Yuma in the eye, not to kill him, but to ruin his vision.

Kudos, though to JEB and Cole for taking Randy's private suggestion, which was the clandestine plan Art became so worried about, and sending him on to meet the herd.  The exact text of Randy's private suggestion follows:
"Fellers, while you'ns was jawing with the others, I was knocking my noggin a bit.  If'n we drive the herd on, they stays together enough.  If'n we stop and lets them graze about here, they'll for sure hop off the trail.  We gots to keep them doggies movin'.
"I wants to talk quiet-like 'cause them the new boys always got a way of talking all at once.
"I figgurs I takes up too much of your time already.  I's just sayin', that's all.  'Preciate the listening."


In the unfortunate realm of meta-gaming, I had a tough time, as did Randy, with how dismissively Randy was treated.  I wrestled with it more than Randy -- he lived that his whole life.

Randy was very uneasy about the newcomers.  His comments were frequently about them not being "Buffaloes."  His uneasy feeling was mostly saddled on Deeds.  Without quoting verbatim, Deeds blustered how he'd shoot Fielder's son first.  I mean, wtf?  Deeds was supposed to be the voice of reason and instead added to the tension.  I'll say Cole and (yes, and) JEB should have reminded him of his position as a neutral observer.  With great respect for Demerillow, I say that was poor role-playing.

Randy showed great interest in keeping the group safe.  His role as tender to the remuda set him as someone who manages a smaller group with pride.  When the horse was killed by a snake crossing the river, he took it hard -- he lost one in his responsibility.  He told the fellers on two occasions how he'd intercede if a bad decision posed someone in eminent danger--such as the one that ended Meri's life--by sitting on them (a reference to horses, eh?).

BTW -- JEB, why didn't you listen to the many who suggested you give your horse a rest?

PS -- The perception of my previous tensions with Art, Rob, was interesting.  Even the judge felt this was the case.  I, Steffen, never let the previous module influence Randy's actions with Art.  He expressed the same feelings about Deeds as those about Art.  Randy simply didn't understand Art, e.g. "Archie", "tucker", "mate".  I thought that was obvious.  I'm sorry I put anyone on edge.  The final punch-out was inevitable, or at least Randy felt that way.  He waited until the drive was over, and couldn't be docked pay, to take action.

Verbose? Sorry.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:37, Mon 23 May 2011.
Cole Trayne
player, 977 posts
D:15 G:21 MDT:12 A:17
Tue 24 May 2011
at 03:36
  • msg #22

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Judge Messalen:
Cole Trayne:
As it happens, as anticipated, the "attack" did indeed come from the front of the herd. Had the advance party been behind them, as  planned, Cole's plan would have unfolded as designed.

This is inaccurate from the judge's point of view. There was no attack. I suspect an argument could be made that the ranchers shooting at the stray beeves was an "attack," but I don't see it that way.

Even so, the battle that started because the ranchers tried to shoot two beeves occurred on the left flank while the beeves were grazing. It didn't come from the front of the herd.


I put the word attack im quotes to qualify it. If I meant attack in the literal sense, I would have not used quotation marks. However, Cole can reasonably still look upon what they did as an aggressive act. If someone shoots a weapon at a man or his property, Cole would have no problem looking at the action as a provocation and responding appropriately. And, I believe he did so.

As I recall, Cole's intent was to guard the front and the western forward flank. Assuming that any "attack" would have some from one of those directions. Cole didn't think it reasonable to expect the attack to come from the east, possibly pushing the cattle in the very direction that Fielder would not have preferred.
Cole Trayne
player, 978 posts
D:15 G:21 MDT:12 A:17
Tue 24 May 2011
at 03:46
  • msg #23

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #12):

Cole wasn't interested in trying to smuggle guns into any town because he didn't really think that we was going to need them. If he thought otherwise, he would have brought them, law or no law.

The job was a cattle drive, not a bank robbery. Cole didn't see how risking a run-in with the law, would help him bring the cattle to Abilene. However, it it was made clear to him that it would help then, again, he would have done it.
Cole Trayne
player, 979 posts
D:15 G:21 MDT:12 A:17
Tue 24 May 2011
at 03:54
  • msg #24

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #21):

Cole was never interested in overly reacting to folks jawin' about whatever. Not Randy, not Deeds, nor anyone else.

He is mainly interested in what a man does.

Or, at least, that is how I wanted to play him.
Travis Sunday
player, 1325 posts
His art is death
D: 19 G:41/10 MDT:12 A:24
Tue 24 May 2011
at 10:25
  • msg #25

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #21):

Randy seemed to be channeling Tom Cullen from the Stand.  His dialogue set something off in my brain that he was mentally challenged.  Obviously that's not something we ask about in character.  So he got the gentle giant tag and I went from there.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2465 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 12:11
  • msg #26

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Cole Trayne:
. . . However, Cole can reasonably still look upon what they did as an aggressive act. If someone shoots a weapon at a man or his property, Cole would have no problem looking at the action as a provocation and responding appropriately. And, I believe he did so.

By the same logic, couldn't Fielder have considered renegade longhorns threatening his northern stock as a provocation and respond appropriately? I believe he did so.

The threat was very real to Fielder. It seems to the Judge that few, if any, of the players really tried to understand the rancher's position.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2466 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 12:17
  • msg #27

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Travis Sunday:
In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #21):

Randy seemed to be channeling Tom Cullen from the Stand.  His dialogue set something off in my brain that he was mentally challenged.  Obviously that's not something we ask about in character.  So he got the gentle giant tag and I went from there.

This is an interesting comment to the Judge. I thought the player did a nice job of developing an idiom for Randy. While he spoke in an uneducated manner, the content of his speech demonstrated a certain degree of intelligence. He stuck to topics that mattered to him and on a number of occasions offered solid suggestions.

For example, it was Randy who first pressed the group to contact McCoy. That was a key to the resolution, followed-up by JEB and Deeds. It was Father Deeds who pushed onward with that idea, securing the help of Gunther.

Randy was never a stupid character. Any PC who perceived him that way wasn't paying enough attention, in the judge's view.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:23, Tue 24 May 2011.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2467 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 12:37
  • msg #28

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Cole Trayne:
In reply to Randy Oldman (msg #21):

Cole was never interested in overly reacting to folks jawin' about whatever. Not Randy, not Deeds, nor anyone else.

He is mainly interested in what a man does.

Or, at least, that is how I wanted to play him.

I think it's fair to say that is how Cole was played.

Although, the judge sees some irony in that statement, given Cole's run-in with Rojas. The Mexican objected strongly to what Cole did (or didn't do, depending on your perspective) during the encounter with the cat wagon.
James E. Beauregard
player, 764 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 14:35
  • msg #29

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Randy Oldman:
BTW -- JEB, why didn't you listen to the many who suggested you give your horse a rest?


The answer is simple – JEB wanted to ride his own horse. Regardless of the realism all of us tried to instill in the game, I personally have certain romantic notions of the Western genre which includes the cowboy and his trusty horse image. These notions are hard to overcome.
James E. Beauregard
player, 765 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 14:45
  • msg #30

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Randy Oldman:
Randy was very uneasy about the newcomers.  His comments were frequently about them not being "Buffaloes."  His uneasy feeling was mostly saddled on Deeds.  Without quoting verbatim, Deeds blustered how he'd shoot Fielder's son first.  I mean, wtf?  Deeds was supposed to be the voice of reason and instead added to the tension.  I'll say Cole and (yes, and) JEB should have reminded him of his position as a neutral observer.  With great respect for Demerillow, I say that was poor role-playing.


I tend to avoid making judgments or comments without being privy to all of the information and I think assuming Deeds was the voice of reason is unfortunate. Perhaps he was not what he appeared (a certain Clint Eastwood film comes to mind) or had a dark side that may come out from time to time. Roleplaying grants tremendous latitude and there is no rule stating any character must be reasonable or consistent all of the time. In point of fact is how I tried to roleplay JEB as essentially a rational and reasonable lawman but with a short fuse. That explains why the negotiations with Fielder went south so fast and why JEB was usually front and center in combat situations. My point is a well rounded character is not a one trick pony. Randy being both simple and smart is a perfect example.
Travis Sunday
player, 1326 posts
His art is death
D: 19 G:41/10 MDT:12 A:24
Tue 24 May 2011
at 14:47
  • msg #31

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #26):

I understood the ranchers position and argued human life was more important than beef.  But a dramatic Rojas asked me to swear an oath that I would place the NBO above those considerations.

As to Randy, his suggestions were topic focused and I had no problem listening and following those leads.  His inability to understand, acknowledge the existence of or translate an Australian accent and a few phrases indicated to me that he was of low intelligence.

Mate?!?  Are you saying you work for a ship captain?!? Golleee Jeepers Archie!!!  I don't know nuthing about no sailing ships from Austria I just know horses.
James E. Beauregard
player, 766 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 15:01
  • msg #32

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Judge Messalen:
It seems to the Judge that few, if any, of the players really tried to understand the rancher's position.


This is true. When I roleplay a western genre game I truly try to place the character in the mindset of the 19th century. Regarding the confrontation with Fielder, JEB had a singular purpose of asserting his employer's rights and it would have been counterproductive to view it otherwise.
James E. Beauregard
player, 767 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 17:01
  • msg #33

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Cole Trayne:
In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #12):

Cole wasn't interested in trying to smuggle guns into any town because he didn't really think that we was going to need them. If he thought otherwise, he would have brought them, law or no law.

The job was a cattle drive, not a bank robbery. Cole didn't see how risking a run-in with the law, would help him bring the cattle to Abilene. However, it it was made clear to him that it would help then, again, he would have done it.


I really wasn't looking for an answer. This was more a thinking out loud 'duh' moment because that never occurred to me during gameplay and just a general comment. JEB most likely never would have done it being a lawman himself, unless he was convinced of extreme danger otherwise. Notwithstanding Cole, however, I'm certain there were other cowboys that would have preferred keeping their guns.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2468 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 19:37
  • msg #34

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Judge Messalen:
It seems to the Judge that few, if any, of the players really tried to understand the rancher's position.

James E. Beauregard:
This is true. When I roleplay a western genre game I truly try to place the character in the mindset of the 19th century. Regarding the confrontation with Fielder, JEB had a singular purpose of asserting his employer's rights and it would have been counterproductive to view it otherwise.

I get that. I wanted characters to put aside their 21st century sensibilities, so I have no objection to this approach.

Still, in this case, the employer's needs might have been better served by a different approach. Seems to me that understanding one's adversary is valuable, regardless of what century one places one's mindset.

I had made some PM comments to individual players (can't remember who) that the advance party were thinking more like soldiers than they were thinking like cowboys. I know that early on, some of the PCs tended to think that they were hired for their guns, but I thought the Major had made it fairly clear, through months of work on the trail, that they were expected to do a cowboy's job, first and foremost.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2469 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 19:48
  • msg #35

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Travis Sunday:
In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #26):
I understood the ranchers position and argued human life was more important than beef.  But a dramatic Rojas asked me to swear an oath that I would place the NBO above those considerations.

I don't recall it exactly that way. I don't remember Rojas or the Major arguing that beef was more important than human life (perhaps my memory is flawed on this point, not sure). They both wanted to get the beeves to Abilene on time. I don't think they ever suggested "at any cost." My recollection of their stance is more of "we need to find a way to get the beeves there on time."

Travis Sunday:
As to Randy, his suggestions were topic focused and I had no problem listening and following those leads.  His inability to understand, acknowledge the existence of or translate an Australian accent and a few phrases indicated to me that he was of low intelligence.

Mate?!?  Are you saying you work for a ship captain?!? Golleee Jeepers Archie!!!  I don't know nuthing about no sailing ships from Austria I just know horses.

To me, this is a valid criticism. It is an example of Randy over-playing the idiom, at times. But I took those sorts of comments as tongue in cheek (and perhaps a bit of meta-gaming) rather than indicative of a character of low intelligence. I think there were plenty of other times--before the Aussie showed up--where Randy's speech indicated a strong understanding of things, denoting at least average intelligence.
Ayasha
player, 235 posts
D: 14 G: 17 MDT: 12 A: 9
Indian Warrior Woman
Tue 24 May 2011
at 19:50
  • msg #36

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Judge Messalen:
I know that early on, some of the PCs tended to think that they were hired for their guns, but I thought the Major had made it fairly clear, through months of work on the trail, that they were expected to do a cowboy's job, first and foremost.

I thought, during the last part of the cattle drive, Ayasha was the best cowboy in the pack. ;-)

But seriously, i thoroughly enjoyed the game, and I don't have criticism or questions. I take a game as it comes.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2470 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Tue 24 May 2011
at 21:09
  • msg #37

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Artemus Carson (msg #15):

Curious to hear any player thoughts in regard to the PM text that Art provided back in msg 15. (Thank you for posting that, Art.)
James E. Beauregard
player, 768 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 21:41
  • msg #38

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #37):

It was this information that led JEB to believe Major Gray and Fielder were acquainted. Reading it again I see such an interpretation was a stretch, but that's what I thought at the time.
James E. Beauregard
player, 769 posts
D: 14 G:52 MDT:15 A:13
Tue 24 May 2011
at 21:49
  • msg #39

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Judge Messalen:
I had made some PM comments to individual players (can't remember who) that the advance party were thinking more like soldiers than they were thinking like cowboys.


JEB received such a comment, which was taken seriously. That's when JEB changed tactics to adopt Randy's suggestion of running the herd through quickly and covering the flank.
Travis Sunday
player, 1327 posts
His art is death
D: 19 G:41/10 MDT:12 A:24
Tue 24 May 2011
at 22:21
  • msg #40

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #35):

Rereading the first encounter with Randy all seems well, except challenging someone to fight for $5 and tobacco juice dribbling down his chin.  Maybe I should have paid more attention.  In the immortal words of Manute Bol.

My bad.
Travis Sunday
player, 1328 posts
His art is death
D: 19 G:41/10 MDT:12 A:24
Tue 24 May 2011
at 22:26
  • msg #41

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #35):

Either Randy was of low intelligence or he road Art hard for no worthwhile reason.  If Travis thought Randy was of sound mind I would have spoken up and told him to shut his pie hole, as was the bunkhouse way. Again...

My bad.
Judge Messalen
GM, 2471 posts
The Hangin' Judge
D:20 G:100 MDT:18 A:0
Wed 25 May 2011
at 04:01
  • msg #42

Re: No Buffalo Outfit: A Postmortem

Travis Sunday:
In reply to Judge Messalen (msg #35):

Either Randy was of low intelligence or he road Art hard for no worthwhile reason.

In the judges view, the relationship between Randy and Art was a two-way street. Having re-read chapters 5 - 7, I think it's fair to say that they were each generally intolerant of the other, beginning late in Chapter 5 (prior to that, it was mostly civil on both parts, in my view).

Now having said that, I agree with the notion that there was no worthwhile reason for Randy to move from that verbal character tension (which had largely died down by the time the herd was brought in) to a physical confrontation at the end of the adventure. Randy would likely argue that it was in his character--and he said Randy saw that action as inevitable--but the Judge feels that a fight could have been avoided while remaining true to Randy's character. It wasn't inevitable; it was a choice. Art's name-calling in his last in-game post was also a choice. Neither the attack, nor Art's verbal response, were necessary for the characters; they were choices made.

Travis Sunday:
If Travis thought Randy was of sound mind I would have spoken up and told him to shut his pie hole, as was the bunkhouse way.

That would have been quite appropriate. In the end, Travis did just that.
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