Shelly squeaks, "Grigori's punishment should still be steep, considering his selfishness could have led to many deaths. Whether we decide to execute him or not, though, is very important at this conjuncture. Life is very very precious. That said, to protect the future lives of our people, as much as I hate to say this, I highly recommend the death sentence after the Restov representative has a chance to confirm what Eli found."

Eli says, "...I've never been sure how to feel about being responsible for someone's death; directly or otherwise."

Tread looks down at Eli. "Grigori is responsible for his death if that is his sentence. You did not set out to kill him and honestly? Neither are any of us setting out to kill him. We are setting out to find justice. And if that means he must die, then that is what will happen. Killing someone should never be something you enjoy, Eli."

"We don't know if it was Erastil himself or some dark power or what transformed that priest," Joey answers, "But even if it were the God of the Hunt who transformed him as a punishment to use that as an example of a church without oversight is at least as inappropriate as Grigori's accusations against us.

"But since you mentioned it, I do wonder if there are any examples of either of these sorts of things happening in the oceans?"

He looks over to Shelly.

Later, when the topic of Grigori's execution comes back up, Joey makes a suggestion.

"Tread's on to something.  How about we offer Grigori the option to decide his own fate.  He can choose execution, or he can choose life in prison instead if he confesses.  If he also publicly apologizes, he can choose a 30 year prison sentence instead.  From there, for every day he spends in public service carving monuments to honor those he slandered or something like that, he can reduce his sentence by two days.  That way it will be literally his choice just how severe his punishment is depending on how willing he is to make restitution."

  "I thought it was rather clear.  Unless Erastil has a retirement plan that makes most organized crime look pleasant."  Hmmm... Turn priest from bear (totally not my fault) back to man after like, 20 years as a bear... ooooor, send divine visions to another priest, ordering them to kill the old one and take his place!  Erastil isn't made of fancy sundials and thank you speeches you know.

  At the sentence shortening idea, he shrugs  "I suppose the tourist souvenirs cheaper than magical items have to come from somewhere."  This mug says 'Traed', we would add days for typos but then nobody would ever leave prison.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:13, Wed 09 Apr 2014.

Shelly squeaks, "Gods punishing people that directly usually takes a pretty severe taboo. If that guy was punished by Erastil, it was likely he deserved it or worse."

Concerning the sentencing, Eli looks hopeful. Tread shrugs. "How much someone regrets their actions does matter."

(( OOC: Module implies muuch longer than 20 years.  Disclaimer:  char's opinions not those of player. ))

Joey's expression shows he does not approve of Scott's disapproval of Erastil but he remains silent on that topic.

"Let's go with that, then.  Unless something significant comes up in Grigori's case, his fate is in his own hands."

As he turns to head out, Addleworth hurries to swallow his latest mouthful to add his two cents.

"Sounds good.  Now on the topic of faith, the shrewd leader will avoid debating potentially hot topics or even offering opinions or well known facts on them.  For example, there was a fishing guild who worshiped the god of the sea and they got into a dispute with the merchant guild over pricing.  To make matters worse, a merchant guild warehouse collapsed and soon thereafter a sudden storm sunk half a dozen fishing boats.  Now a certain councilman pointed this already well-known fact out, but in doing so he implied that 'the sea god "knows" that it was the fishing guild who sabotaged the warehouse and that's why he "punished" the fishermen.  His careless language sparked a riot.

"Much wiser is to be vague on the specifics of one's opinions when it comes to hot topics relating to faith.  Such as whether or not you agree with how a god handled a certain situation."

"I'm a cleric, Addleworth," Joey answers, "You expect me to be vague about my convictions?  Erastil is the good god of nature.  I do not like it when he is slandered any more than when my good friend Shelly, oracle of nature is."

"You are also all leaders.  If keeping opinions to yourselves on specific debatable topics prevents unrest, then yes.  Better to simply praise vague but useful virtues such as cooperation and peacemaking than to presume to speak for or against a god and invoke his and his believers' ire.  At the very least, avoid giving opinions on such things in public."
This message was last edited by the player at 04:47, Sun 13 Apr 2014.

  "While I may not be the most politically savvy, even I know not to state the unfortunate truth that Good does not mean Nice, or Forgiving to the public in most cases.  Just as Joey likely knows not to tell a crowd 'if someone you know got turned into a bear, they probably deserved it' regardless of if the victim did or not.

  He shrugs, "Besides, I did suggest the option of leaving Grigori in the woods for nature to sort out."  That... probably isn't what most mean when they say to have faith in nature, Scott.

Shelly nods. "Even just saying, 'this is just my opinion' and then stating your opinion to the public is a bad idea. People will use every word that comes from our mouths as ammo to win arguments both important and unimportant."

Eli says, "I generally don't talk to the public anyway... so no big deal for me."

Tread says, "Good thing our so-called opinions don't differ too much. Seeing as how my opinion is simple; Evil should be stopped and you usually have to use violence to do so."

Eli says frustratedly, "Some day, I'm going to make a spell to cause the world to be incapable of violence."

Shelly shrugs with a helpless smile. "Good luck with that?"

Joey's daddy instincts kicks in and he kneels down to fluffy-fox-cuddle-comfort poor Eli.

"Take heart, Eli.  For every monster or villain there's at least a hundred peaceful people enjoying fun with their friends and family singing songs about the brave heroes such as Eli who 'helped tame the wilderness without sword or bow.'  When you think about it, this world may as well already be under a powerful peace spell.  Even the most violent of storms will last but a few days only to be followed by weeks of gentle sunshine."

  Scott sighs,  "I can see where you are coming from Eli, but in such cases the cruel would just resort to nonviolent means or workarounds."

  Scene transition to bandits shaking people upside down for their pocket change saying I'm not hurting you, I'm not hurting you.  Also you are fat.

Eli seems comforted by Joey's words. Notsomuch by Scott's.

Discussion of laws and such ensues. Tread's take is simple and straight forward, but also leans towards the militaristic. Eli's take is more mercy and kindness, but tends to often overlook how important harsher punishments are. Especially when it comes to violence. And Shelly's take is practical with a balance of mercy, harsh punishment, but a small influence from her "let's party" personality. Probably because of the bunch, Shelly is the only one who was raised in a royal setting, so she's very familiar with all this stuff.

But as Tread pointed out, the opinions of the group are generally in synch. They all want a sane kingdom where people get along.

"Scott's right," Joey agreed, "Maybe there's another solution that will limit violent evil as a side-effect.  I've read of a cleric spell..."

He gives the details on the Early Judgement spell.  "Depending on the creature's alignment and its adherence to its ethos, you can provide it a brief glimpse of the reward or punishment that waits for it when it dies by showing it a mental image of its destined plane in the afterlife."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/...lls/e/early-judgment

During law discussion, Joey does his best to gently advocate Eli's point of view so the boy doesn't feel alone, but he still agrees with the others on fundamentals like, "Evil deeds should be punished."

"I've noticed there seems to be a distinct lack of rewarding good compared to punishing evil among all these laws."

  "One of the downsides of wanting not acting like a violent and larcenous jerk to be the norm, is that you do not reward normal.  It is a nice sentiment but 'what is in it for me?' should not be a legal basis for good deeds.  Nevermind the financial problems."   Scott does not comment on the idea of even more screwing with people's heads for their own purposes.  Nevermind the fact a glimpse of the afterlife would likely show rewards waiting for those of some of the more nasty mindsets.

  No Shadrakai that we know of in Pathfinder, but you get the idea.

Shelly squeaks, "While I wish I could say good is its own reward, it rarely is that simple. Most people don't understand right away the benefit of being kind since such benefits are usually really gradual. That said, even a simple "atta boy" or "good job" can really make someone feel great. So rewarding people for doing good? If we want something like that, I propose we simply encourage people. Maybe when someone is kind enough to you that they have made your day, you stick a yellow flag in the road just in front of their home. When us or the authorities see that, and have time to, we drop in for a visit to personally thank them for being kind."

Tread says, "That's a LOT of people to thank..."

Shelly says, "Not really. People making someone's day isn't as common as you'd hope. But even if it was, I did say us or the authorities. In other words, city guard and such. Who also will be commended by their superiors for fine work."

“There are many evil people who understand the long term financial benefit of being lawful,” Addleworth points out, “But as Shelly said, such benefits tend to be gradual.”

“I like your idea, Shelly,” Joey says, “Honor is something many value more than money.  So we can make it known that we honor those who go above the norm for their fellow man.  The greater the heroic act, the more we reward the hero.”

  "So far, 'evil' that considers law a benefit has not been in any noteworthy supply in these lands.  Unless we count 'do what I say or die' as a general all purpose law."

Tread says, "No, do as I say or die doesn't count as being lawfully minded."

Eli grumbles, "Close enough. Everything seems to boil down to might makes right. If you aren't strong enough to win, it doesn't matter what you believe because it won't come to fruition if you're dead."

Shelly says, "Good thing we're mighty, then, isn't it?"

Eli doesn't seem cheered up by Shelly's words. Just rolls his eyes.

"Some would argue that being consistantly inconsistant or sticking to any arbitrary set of rules counts as being lawful," Addleworth says between bites, "But I'm sure such silly semantics won't hold any water in your courts."

Joey reaches to comfort-pet Eli.  "Not everything, Eli.  Part of why I wanted to be sure that those who live honestly willingly are rewarded."

  "At least we actually want to try to deal with things without smashing their faces first.  But it just does not work out unfortunately."  Is inevitable violence because Charisma is his dump stat, or is charisma his dump stat because of inevitable violence?... Yeah stupid question.

Shelly giggles. "I see what you did there, Addelworth..."
Shelly's court IS water. XD

Eli looks up at Joey and Scott and gives a hopeful smile.

Tread says, "So is that everything? Are we set?"

Addleworth gives Shelly a wry smile.  Joey returns Eli's smile and adds more fluffy fox cuddles.

"Yes.  I think so, Tread."

Later, when the Restof spy shows up, he questions Rantface but is unable to learn anything more than the group already had.

"I'll go look into things.  Likely his employers used enough blinds for this to be a dead end.  Up to you what you do with him.  He's no use to me."

Rantface chooses not to publicly recant, preferring to stay in prison and out of the public eye.

  "Sooo...  Let the Elk sort him out, the brand new weight loss program of prison life, or what?  At this point I don't care so long as it is over with."

Eli perfectly recalls what Joey said earlier, "He can choose execution, or he can choose life in prison instead if he confesses. If he also publicly apologizes, he can choose a 30 year prison sentence instead.  From there, for every day he spends in public service carving monuments to honor those he slandered or something like that, he can reduce his sentence by two days.  That way it will be literally his choice just how severe his punishment is depending on how willing he is to make restitution."

Eli looks towards Grigori. "Execution? Or life imprisonment? Hint: Choose life."

Tread and Shelly don't add anything, simply watching Grigori and waiting.

Grigori frowns deeply.  "Life," is all he answers.

"Then you must confess during the trial," Joey reminds.

Eventually, Grigori tried and convicted, the ordeal is over and the group is free to move on to other matters.

((OOC: Like exploring?  Players decide what they do next.))

  "I'm sure the Elks are disappointed."  He looks to Eli,  "I hope you haven't had to put up with this sort of thing the entire time we were gone."

Tread looks to the others. "Well we just got back... should we take care of some things here in the kingdom and then head out?"

Shelly smiles up at the group. "Anything you bunch want, ^this girl is ready to deliver." 'this' said with a squeak.

---

Kingdom building? Or did we already do that? It's been so long, I forgot