Scott shrugs, "Executing further obviously intending us and our harm home spies sounds like a given.  But as for this one, I doubt he knows anything more beyond 'screw with us because he has been told to' so sending him off to the swordlords wouldn't accomplish anything.  Either deal with him now, cut him loose with a warning we will not be as forgiving to the rest... Or I guess if we wanted to be mean, simply drop him off in the woods for the Elk to devour."  It's lawful if nature kills them with random encounter tables, right?

Tread says, "He knows who hired him... nobody but us is going to just take Eli's word for it. Executing the spy only punishes the spy, but what about punishing the ones who sent him?"

Shelly says, "Calm down... I'm sure we can take care of this our own way. Let's send a messenger to Restov. We'll keep Grigori alive long enough for Restov reps to show up."

Eli raises a finger. "...we could ask Addelworth his opinion."

Eli is able to learn the code name of the one who hired Grigori and where they met, but nothing more.  H was careful to disguise himself.  Joey suppresses a chuckle when Scott suggests death by Greenbelt.  He nods to Tread.

"That bothers me too, but I can't think of any way we can do so even if we knew the specific person or persons involved."

He then nods to Shelly.  "Good idea."

Unless there's objection he sends for Addleworth.  If asked his opinion, Addleworth reminds the group that he has scrolls of sending for urgent messages then drones on about what can be expected...

"You could have your answer from the Sword Lords by the end of today.  As for Grigori, his being exposed as a spy has both advantages and disadvantages.  The advantage is that it sends a message that the leaders of Summershield are vigilantly searching for and eliminating such threats.  The downside is that those to whom such a thing hadn't occurred to will likely be nervous knowing that foreign powers are actively trying to undermine the nation they are raising their families in.  So the overall attitude of the people is likely to remain unchanged.

"The swift execution of an unpopular criminal is generally considered favorable in the eyes of the mob and can garner their loyalty, but the more wealthy members of the population generally prefer thorough trials that very carefully prove a person's guilt first.  The use of mind reading spells as evidence in court is generally only accepted if the veracity of the mage who cast the spell has been firmly established.  A confession is much more convincing if one can be plea bargained.

"The occasional calling upon the aid and advice of the Swordlords of Restov will likely be considered a good sign in their eyes that you are eager to maintain close ties.  Frequent requests or requests on trivial matters will likely be viewed as a nuisance and rare or non-existent requests might be considered a declaration of non-confidence."

  "Sounds like a waste of time to bother them with this then.  It's the first of such issues, and they were hardly successful."  Nothing but taking the guy off their hands to no end accomplishment, really.

  "I can see your point about mind reading as evidence overall.  But in this case we have an entire crowd of people who know that their minds were coerced.  So if we did want a trial first, not like we are lacking in abundant legitimate evidence of his wrongdoing."

Tread says, "Oh sure, there's no shortage of witnesses for what this guy did, but none of them are witnesses to who sent him. Do we really want Drelev to get off the hook for this?"

Eli says, "Actually, the fact this is our first spy invasion means this is one of the few occasions it would not only be acceptable, but a sign we're acknowledging we still need our neighbor's help to grow."

Shelly squeaks, "It's not like we've bothered them about anything for this past year. And politically speaking, this is important for both us and Restov. Unless anyone objects, I vote we have Addelworth send the message. We'll only be waiting a day for a response and I can make sure they know the whole situation and that we plan to learn from them so we can handle Drelev ourselves in the future."

"An eye for an eye," Joey says, "A spy for a spy.  Perhaps we can send a spy of our own down there to find out why they're trying to undermind our humble settlement."

"First spy you know of," Addleworth corrects Eli, "Could be more of them."

  "As tempting as that is Joey, I somehow doubt what, if anything, passes as our spy network would fare much better."

Shelly says, "I'd like to think anyone would fair better than Grigori, at least. He was about as subtle as a heart attack."

Tread says, "A spy to find out why... I guess the direct approach wouldn't be wise?"

Shelly says, "We'd wind up with an angry and nervous Drelev on our hands. While unlikely, it is always possible the ruler of Drelev has no idea this spy was sent."

Eli says, "Who would we send as a spy anyway?"

"Perhaps the Swordlords of Restov could recommend one," Joey suggests.

Addleworth just resumes snacking while the group deliberates.  He offers a bite to anyone who looks his way.

  Scott declines from offers of partially eaten snacks.  "I suppose as much as I would like to avoid 'see, we're justified spying because they spied on us after we spied on them first' politics logic, I must admit simply asking them the specific reason they did it would not get anywhere."  Even if the answer is pretty likely 'because we hate any competition at all' or 'Because you are sorta kinda a slave state to Restov'.

Shelly squeaks, "Sounds like we have decided for sure that, at least for now, we're going to send that message to Restov."

Tread is slightly grossed out by Addleworth, but just gives him a nervous smile and headshake. Eli smiles, thanks him, and takes any sweets offered.

Shelly pretends she didn't see anything offered.

"What shall the message say?" Addleworth asks.

"Presumably we'll be telling them everything," Joey surmises.

"The spell is limited to 25 words or less," Addleworth answers.

"Then be succinct."

Addleworth does his best to cram as much of the important things into the message.  After a few moments, Addleworth writes down the reply he gets.

"Good work.  We'll lend an agent."

  Considering Addleworth is already around, it is no more 'what if Restov wants to Spy on us too?' than it currently is.  "I am somewhat curious to see if anything more practical can come out of this.  It is somewhat difficult to see the bright side of the situation outside of the Grigori being caught already."

Tread then looks back at Grigori. "I wish I could save you. But Joey's right. What you did literally put hundreds of people's lives at stake."

Eli says, "Well depending on what the agent says, maybe Grigori could yet live?"

Shelly squeaks, "Our kingdom has plenty of room for forgiveness. Nobody did die. Attempted murder is not the same as successful murder."

Eli looks hopeful.

Grigori's face is red and he doesn't answer.

"Then we need to figure out some other appropriate punishment," Joey says, "Our last convicted killer sentenced himself to life of public service, but his was a case of committing a crime against his will due to a curse...  Is there a written law for all this?"

"Most offenses have a range of punishments to allow for extenuating circumstances," Addleworth answers, "Like if the guilty has no prior convictions, if he belongs to a noble family, if he agreed to confess for a reduced  punishment, etc.  But in the case of espionage and treason the minimum punishment is usually quite severe.  I can have the lawbooks searched if you like."

  "In this case, I somehow doubt there were extenuating circumstances causing Grigori's action."  He turns to the tomato of a man, "Unless there were, but I think you would have shared more than nothing if that were the case."

  Even a fake sob story would have been more forthcoming than nothing at all if Grigori thought it would mean getting away with it.

Tread says, "That guy who is serving a life sentence did so to himself. He doesn't really deserve it... Makes me wanna cry every time I think about what it must be like to be him."

Eli hugs Tread and says, "The law as written in Restov is that what Grigori did has a minimum punishment of public lashing and 10 years in prison. But that's if he was an indispensable member of society and did so because he was drunk. But we technically don't have our own law for this. I put it off, not really expecting a kingdom this small and new would have spies sent from other kingdoms to tear it apart."

Shelly squeaks, "Then once we decide on a punishment for Grigori, we need to concentrate on making laws for our kingdom. Addelworth, your help is going to be highly valued here on both counts."

Tread says, "I guess deciding on his punishment while we wait for the reps from Restov is as good a thing as any to do... The public lashing could potentially be carried out now and still have him alive and presentable for the rep when he or she arrives."

Eli cringes. "But is that what we wanna do...?"

Joey looks angry.  "What?!  What family you belong to should have no bearing on reduced sentencing!  People are equally responsible to do what's right.  If anything, with greater stature should come greater accountability!"

Grigori remains silent, continuing to repeat mary Had a Little Lamb over and over in his head to try and keep Eli out.  Addleworth bows to Shelly.

"My pleasure.  Though as a reminder, my expertise is in building baronies using standard approaches to law and government."

He nods toward Joey.  "While innovations like mandating equal punishment for nobles and vagrants alike, or reducing sentencing parameters across the board, may have some benefits such as increasing the loyalty of the masses, it is likely they have much greater drawbacks such as undermining your economy or stability respectively.  Otherwise, good-hearted and practical rulers of the past would have done so frequently enough for it to be the present-day norm.  I cannot speak to the likely consequences accurately if you decide to deviate overmuch from the norm."

Joey tries to calm himself to offer a comforting pet to Eli and Tread.

"Sarenrae teaches that Justice allows for redemption.  Perhaps there's a more religious answer better than a political one.  I will pray for guidance."

  "We have been finding that running purely on common sense can be surprisingly counterproductive in forming a kingdom quite often of late."  Well okay, Piles Of Money selling magical knickknacks to.... Whoever at least has some basis in practicality.

  "Though I have to ask.  Do we even have any nobles as citizens around here?" Shelly (and maybe Addleworth?) Doesn't count as Citizens, they work here instead of being NPC Population filler.

Anyone being PC or NPC doesn't count either since the characters don't know they are just characters being played by players, so Eli proceeds to answer Scott by listing all the nobles (Besides, half if not most of the kingdom's rulers are NPCs such as Svetlana). "We are citizens as much as the next person. In fact, the requirement for being an official of any kind, be it mayor, duke, or king, is that you have to be a citizen first."

As Joey rants, Eli widens his eyes, but seems neither in agreement or disagreement. He just listens. He turns off his mind-reading power and ignores Grigori.

Shelly agrees with Joey and nods as he speaks.

Tread, however, gives Joey a confused look. "...how are you surprised? What kingdom are you from that doesn't have it that way? That's, like, everywhere I've ever been. The more important the person, the less the law applies to them."

Shelly says, "The kingdom I hail from has equal treatment under the law, but Addelworth's right. There have to be exceptions because of a good king makes a mistake and gets punished for it according to how much he's responsible for, there would be no king, or he would be replaced by a corrupt king and the whole kingdom would be in danger. The way Daddy deals with it is to have royalty treated differently, but still answer for their actions, so that if the crime was in fact a mistake, the royal person in question can still do their job and serve the people. Still yet another problem with royals being punished often is that the people lose faith in their leaders, so the punishments are going to have to not be made public most times. If the rulers don't appear absolutely deifically perfect to the people, even if you set a better example than the best in your kingdom, the people lose faith in you and demand a different ruler. So for future reference, if you wanna set things up like in my kingdom, we'll have a separate court designed just for us and those who hold a high-ranking office."

Joey blushes and rubs behind his head.

"I uh... admittedly have had limited exposure to how things work outside the church.  Accountability and oversight was an important part of the administrative structure.  No one was considered exempt from the rules of the church."

"Members of wealthy merchant groups can be effectively the same as noblemen considering the clout they wield," Addleworth adds.

  "Huh, well I'm sorry to say Joey that is not the outlook and impression the average church holds in my travels.  Though still generally better than the examples seen in our short time at the greenbelt."

  He nods to Addleworth, "So to put it simply, the people who write the bills, or pay the biggest ones is the average method.  I suspect it will be difficult to put down in legally adequate writing we would be willing to give a little leeway but will come down on them like their least favorite heavy objects if they overstep themselves."

Tread puts a hand on Joey. "Didn't mean to sound like you were missing the obvious. I was just surprised. But using religion as a guideline is a tried and true method. I'm sure Addelworth here knows of plenty of places who use religious teaching as the foundation if not just influence in their law making."

Shelly nodnods at Scott and squeaks "Sounds right, Scott. Room for mistakes, but intolerance of clearly overstepping. The real problems happen when you have too much leeway or too much intolerance. All mercy leads to anarchy and all strict leads to oppression."

Eli smiles up at Joey. "We'll figure something out." then hugs Tread's arm and looks at Scott. "I guess now is as good a time as any to get started on more law making and covering what is on our minds...?"

(Not that the player is going to roleplay through lawmaking or anything. So we can fast forward whenever you're ready)

Joey of course looks saddened when Scott says equal oversight was the exception to the norm in his experience.

"Then we'll need to make sure that does not become the case within the churches that wind up built within our borders," he concludes.

Addleworth nods.  "That is the generally understood arrangement in any given organization.  Whether its a trade guild, church, kingdom, or anything else, those with power are expected to be granted leniency but it is expected that those with yet more power will take them for all they're worth should they step out of line too often or too far.

"To explicitly implement the moral code of a religion into the legal code of a nation is very difficult considering no scripture includes an exhaustive list of crimes and punishments nor do they have extensive case history for judges to fall back on when faced with exceptional cases.  Much simpler would be to gradually clarify how you want the existing laws' wording interpreted.

"And Shelly is quite right.  If, for example, you catch a thief red handed stealing food for her starving children and order that her hand be removed because that is what is written in the law for thieves, the people will learn to fear you and future cases will likely be judged just as harshly by your judges.  If, on the other hand, you catch someone stealing the exact same amount of food, only this time from starving children, in order to throw it in a fire to torment them with the sight, and you do not punish the thief harshly, the people will lose respect for you and wind up turning on each other whenever they feel slighted because they know they won't get justice from the law."

"So in other words, intent and motive are more important than the specific law broken when determining punishment," Joey answers.

"For the specific kind of justice system you seem to be aiming for, yes.  Other kingdoms that value consistent adherence to the law more than the delicate balance of mercy and justice case by case both reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of their chosen approach, sacrificing loyalty and stability for improved economy."

"Hmm...  In Grigori's case, he wasn't specifically out to kill anyone, but he didn't care about anyone but himself....  Yes, Eli.  Lets."

(( OOC: If we want to move along we can just handwave that "The group eventually decides on an appropriate punishment for Grigori and moves on to other matters..." ))

  "If it helps Joey, things like 'turn priest into an animal until we get around to ordering another priest to kill them' haven't been the norm I have seen outside of the Greenbelt.  Yes Scott, we are sure telling them 'at least they aren't complete overkill insane usually' will really help...