whats the common point limit for warhammer and warhammer 40k games now?

Our group normally plays 1250 or 1500 40k, which seems ideal for an evening.

Most people I know play in around the 1500, 1750 or 2000 point range for 40k, as those are the common tournament sizes.

Fantasy I think is mostly around the 2000 point size, but I last played it 2 editions ago :)

Has anyone tried the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy?  I have only played a couple games of it waaaayyyyy back in the day with my Slaneesh army.  Good times, especially against the dwarves- speed vs slow!=:)

I belive that GW recommend a game size of about £150.

Lol! That's each, and that just includes books and paint, no miniatures.

Can all the veteran Sisters of Battle players (new 40k players dont know what SoB are or wish to spend money on the all metal army if they do) who feel completely shafted by the new Sisters of Battle rules raise their hands and make some form of derogatory comment about Cruddace and/or his complete and utter inabilty to create a balanced and viable 40k codex.

Raises hand.

12pts for a basic sister? How in Hell's name does increasing the cost of a basic sister whilst removing a huge chunk of her versatility balance an army that was already over costed for 5th ed. At least Ward's Codexes can compete within the current 40k meta even if there is some over powered, over the top, what the fuck was he smoking and can I have some of it, stuff in them.

Life Lesson No.3: Anytime you consider cutting GW a little slack and start to think about playing their wargames once more, jab something sharp in your leg have the person nearest to you slap you in the face and go back to playing Warmachine and Hordes, you took it up in place of 40K for many damn good reasons.

They're in deep financial trouble at the moment. I imagine that the 20-million pound loans they took out a few years back are coming due. Sadly, since Merrt and Priestly (not Black Library's Chief Editor who was answering phones before she got her job as Chief Editor by sleeping with and marrying Rick Priestly, the one whose actually accomplished something in their life) left the company things have been steadily going downhill. You can see this by the fact that they've become desperate enough to try and expand into any/all areas of enterprise and that they're loaning out their intellectual property to anyone with the capital.

Of course, when you consider that without this desperation for profit Dark Heresy and the glories of Warhammer Fantasy 2nd Edition would not have happened. So all is well that ends well... I suppose...


That said, GW has never been above changing the rules around for profit. See how some of the most powerful weapons/armor/powers in the game are sole property of the Space Marines, the Hellhound (it used to have exploding canisters, but then they realized by taking out that bit of realism from the game people would buy hellhounds en mass), the Dark Eldar (I stopped following GW in 2009, but last time I checked they hadn't gotten a new codex since 2nd Edition), and Apocalypse (gigantic battles or the need for gigantic amounts of units driving gigantic profits?).

They're a company. Not a charity. They gotta eat too.

Yes, but if their willingness to cheapen themselves is what's causing their downfall? :P

Also Lord Dubu, the reason they're in financial trouble is because of greed. Their old CEO decided that they needed to push and there was a rapid expansion of GW stores with a decreased emphasis on the "Rogue Traders". They then started the ill-fated Horus Heresy Card Game, pouring proverbial mountains of money into it hoping to make it a serious competitor to Magic: The Gathering. In the meantime they started Black Industries and a self-produced Massive Multiplayer that was true to the table-top game as opposed to being generic WoW sell-out number five with hints of Age of Camelot.

They did not have the mass appeal for the newly opened stores to do well. Their lesser emphasis, higher buy-in, and increased licensing pricing with the "Rogue Traders" (i.e. independent retailers selling GW stuff) caused many of these "Rogue Traders" to burn their cartas causing sales to further decrease. The Horus Heresy Card Game failed miserably. Strapped for cash, they closed every independent venture that wasn't immediately producing profit. Black Library was spared thanks to the Horus Heresy's success. Forgeworld was more-or-less brought into the fold thanks in part to Apocalypse. Black Industries was shut down, then given over to Fantasy Flight Games. The Massive Multiplayer was canned and given over to EA_Mythic who had their own vision for it, namely turning it into the Age of Camelot Part 2.


I haven't been an investor in Gamesworkshop for a few years, but I noticed in my reports that they were taking out increasingly larger loans so they could report a profit, which made me decide it would be a good idea to abandon my shares. They've done many things over the years to alienate their fanbase Lord Dubu. It's why there are few people like me who got into this around the Realms of Chaos days (circa 1990) left that are actively playing and/or following.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:18, Thu 25 Aug 2011.

Then there was that 'angry' email/open letter from the COO. Stating something along the lines that they were closing ranks to safeguard the product, blah blah. Don't forget that.

But, I'll say this:
Don't get on your high horse and cry foul just yet. If the rumour mill is to be believed this could be a Codex written to be in-line with 6th edition.

I hadn't heard about that one lol. Keep in mind anything that happened after 2009 is a blur to me, minus the occasional C.L. Werner novel (he is the greatest writer they have, so therefore I must own everything he has ever published :P).

That said, I'll be hoping for it too, Castleman.

6th ed is not really going to help it though.

The SoB mini-codex's failing is that it does nothing that does not already exist in the other current codexs for a much more competative price. Even if the 6th ed rumour of invunerable saves working like theiy do in fantasy is true, a 6++ save is not going to change much.

That said, the rules (or lack there of) is not the codex's main undoing, its lack of options in general (a single troops choice, limited wargear options ect) and the over costing of the units for what they do.

A 10 sister squad with a Heavy flamer and a melta gun (standard lay out) is 150 pts a 10 man marine squad with its standard missile launcher and flamer is 170 points. For 20 points extra a vanilla marine squad gets +1 WS, +1S, +1T, They Shall No No Fear and Combat Squad and Combat Tactics.

Changing basic rules of the game may give an advantage where there was not one before, but as all armies are subject to the same system they gain the same advantage as well, meaning there is no shift in the overall dynamic to make the sisters any better.
This message was last edited by the player at 12:19, Fri 26 Aug 2011.

So apparently Felinids aka Cat-people, are a real Abhuman race now in 6th edition. And apparently they decided to mention Squats as well even though GW decided to kill them off so long ago.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Squat
http://i.imgur.com/WfOL7.jpg

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abhuman#.UGTpEY1lSMs

As are Troths, apparently green plant like humanoids, Longshanks, apparently long limbed humanoids, Pelagers, or mermaids and mermen (more likely Water World style with gills and webbed fingers and toes rather than fish tails), and Neandors, or Neanderthals.

This is a sore topic for the CardinaI, a compIete gamacide of one of the most fun "races" GW ever produced.  They even come out and are brash enough to produce a pIea of "A rare case of GW being compIeteIy Honest", which stiII makes no sense.  Whatever their name, Iike the pIea said if you show up with a squat imperiaI guard army which makes sense onIy a true Warhammer fan wouId pIay you.  FinaI word is squats are dead but you can't bury them, it just is a barometer of a true Warhammer fan, if someone does not fight your squat army then do you reaIIy want to game with them any way?

R.I.P. IittIe guys we miss you stiII
YR.Obd.Srvnt.
S.C.I.

Broken L key I take it?

As for the Squats, I personally think they never did them properly from the start, what with making them predominately Biker armies when Dwarves have always been some of the best Heavy Infantry and Siege Engineers in any fantasy setting that's featured them. Though I do have to say they got them right in Epic with their huge ponderous war machines.

On a side note, I would very much like to create a ragtag Imperial Guard list built around an adhoc regiment made from the remnants of several different units, especially Abhuman units, including Squat survivors among some of the more recently mentioned Abhumans.

Also, ever heard of Mantic or their Warpath Forge Fathers miniatures?

I think that possibly the Squats for some reason didn't translate as well into 40k as the other races from Fantasy Battle did.  Possibly because of the imperial guard getting the big tanks, and being at the time (and to a certain extent still) sit behind your war-machines and shoot it.  With that playstyle sewn up, they had to give the squats something but what they gave them didn't suit the image of squats in players minds >< but I agree. got them right in epic.  I still grumble that I didn't buy it when I should have done. ie before 40k

Personally, I'd be happy if they added the Squats as a unit upgrade (+1 WS, +1 T, -1 I, and either Prefered Enemy or Hatred Orks and or Tyranid for like 15-20 pts) or new unit type for the Imperial Guard 6th ed, after all they did serve in the IG and it wouldn't be a big stretch to add them seeing as they already have Ogryn and Ratlings (Ogres and Halflings). Though if they ever decided to add the Squats as a race unto  themselves it'd be a mix of IG and SM, no doubt.

Hi all I used to play 40k years back but gave it up as the prices went up. I still skirmish play on a small scale but use a set of rules called spacefarers.

Most people believe rogue trader ws the first 40k rules but they are wrong. Games workshop with figures by citadel miniatures was really the grand daddy of what you all play today. They had space marines, power armour, bolt guns, evil army to fight called dark disciples and star patrolmen, jet scooters and jet packs. It was all based in the imperium and had the over riding goal of imperial expansion.

It was ( and still is a great game) for playing squad based games. With a hand full of figures you could have a great game on a card table.

It's the set I still use for my odd skirmish nights.

Just wondering if anyone out there is as old as me and remembers it

In reply to jamat (msg # 141):

Guilty, old enough.  Still makes me wonder why smaller skirmish games are not popular and sell at terrible rates and are hardly played?  Necromunda, Mordhiem, even just smaller games on a bigger scale, such as Man O' War.  The box set games for 60 dollars with plastic mini's and rules for a larger army that would cost you hardly another 100 dollars makes sense to me.  And being able to switch entire venues of battles, from the sewers of a hive-world to the high seas of the Old world, I think was a nice idea, and something different. But for most it is Table-Top Warhammer and 40k.  For Heaven's sake, one of the best games ever "Space Hulk", ended up being a collecters addition to be saved like a damned trophy, "No we don't play that son, we just look at it and remember having fun, now run along son and buy a bunch of Tau warriors."

That game and many more could have been re-tooled using modern tile structures and been endless fun.  Yes I am old enough to remember the few "counter" games GW tried, and tried is laying it on thick.

Plus yes, I like being able to pack up a small group of mini's and play a evening worth of Tabletop.  At the Stores on the west coast of the United States I see nothing but gigantic point battles raging for what seems like days, the entire room reeking of pre-pubescent glands, Mountain Dew and the synth-crunch additives on spicy crisps.

Sure I was 13 once, but I could never afford some of the armies people play, it is not a new thing to me though and I doubt new to anyone else that has been around GW stores, it is like walking onto the Ferrari showroom of gaming. 25 years of it and the story is still the same.

It always seemed like the armies of Warhammer and 40k where just to big to me, and White Dwarf made it look so easy and amazing, who wouldn't want a thousand dollar Tabletop army in their own display case at the local shop, this is just not my idea of fun and what ever the reason (The Baron seems to know waaaaaaay more than I would ever want to know, although Baron I believe Abnett gives Werner a ride for the money, but we can take that up on the appropriate thread;)

GW has always and will always be slammed for being to expensive.  But if you can afford it, it is just not a problem, and I would never argue that their is a better brand of Table-Top gaming. But the greatest point was made earlier, GW complete lack of business sense has left them throwing intellectual property to some motivated people, it is nice to see such good ideas come from such stupid behavior, I wish I was so lucky. So let them eat cake, and I'll take the pie.

I was pleasantly surprised a few years back. I wondered into one of my local stores, and they were ALL on a Blood Bowl kick, one table was devoted to a standard game, two guys were desparately painting up their teams and four others were playing Dungeonbowl using the board sections from Space Hulk and Warhammer Quest.  Just for that one moment it all felt right again.

I've not bought GW stuff for years but I do like to go in there and listen to the staff try to sell me on the game especially when I used to play GW games years before most of them were born.... christ I probably have socks older then most of them in my draw at home.

Dan Abnett does not give Clint a run for his money. Dan Abnett AND Nik Vincent Abnett give Clint a run for his money. Dan Abnett has always been a husband-wife team disguised as a single person. Gilead's Blood was the only time that Nik was ever given her proper dues as his better half.

As for me knowing far more than I should, I have personally known a good portion of the authors for Black Library, I have met a good deal of the editors, I own a large number of the original publications, I have advised a number of the authors from 2008-2010 (for example, Gav Thrope's inclusion of mankind being the ultimate expression of Chaos which drove Maliketh insane was suggested by me, which was a part of the setting in Realms of Chaos), and I have not picked up a Black Library novel in about 2 years, minus buying Clint's works. I have not bought a new miniature since 2009, the way they change the rules to force you to buy more models and the change of the rules to make up for sales leaving a terrible taste in my mouth.


I have a woeful lack of knowledge on the current status of the Tabletop. I will say this though, I used to play a mean Khornate army. Victory or Death in 30 minutes or less. Pizza delivery places can eat their heart out :P. And that is all I have to say on the matter.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The rule sets for minis are the primary reason you would buy them. Those minis that are 'strongest' would be used the most and thus sell the most. Those minis on the low end of power would be used the least and thus sell the least (there are other factors in this, I know.) So if all of that is true, why wouldn't GW change the rules of 'weak' minis so they could sell more of them? How is that in any way a bad thing?

Do the words "balance" mean anything? All seriousness, from a business prospective and a "fun" prospective make things balanced and everything sells well. Look at Magic: The Gathering.