So, I figure it is about time we had a thread dedicated to the house rules, rules interpretations, and conventions regarding the game.  The first post in this thread will permanently be dedicated to compiling said rules, while further posts will be for rules suggestions and debate.

In no particular order:













Did I forget anything?
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:53, Tue 03 Sept 2013.

I've got several ideas for the way chrysalis should work, but ultimately I'd like to see what you guys like.

* Note that all these options divorce chrysalis from taint somewhat.  This is purposeful.  While the option for converting temporary taint to chrysalis should stay intact, such situations seldom come up even in tabletop play without purposeful and unrealistic player manipulation, and do not generally reinforce the "cool factor" meant to be associated with nova evolution (since most taint acquisition is associated with failure of some sort, novas only get chrysalis by sucking, at least in the standard rules).

1.1) Imp's idea: basically chrysalis becomes another taint track, and lets you buy "chrysalised" traits at half price, in exchange for a permanent chrysalis point.  Nice, easy, elegant.  And it powers down the process.
Flaws: the simplification drastically alters the feel, and the system encourages a certain level of min/maxing
1.2) As 1.1, but allows multiple traits (# to be determined later) to be purchased at the same time
Flaws: more powerful than 1.1
1.a) An option that can be added to either 1.1 or 1.2; this will take an amount of IN-GAME TIME equal to the xp spent on the process in weeks (this lets it retain some of the same feel, accounts for the chrysalis, and serves to even out the power a bit).
1.b) Traits involving taint/aberrations may be purchased along with any other purchase, at the cost listed on the chrysalis chart.
1.c) Refer to ** for when a chrysalised trait may be purchased.


2.1) Characters buy temporary chrysalis with xp**, and when they hit 10, they enter a chrysalis as normal (but do not gain the xp for the chrysalis they've accrued). They then add 2 points of permanent chrysalis to their sheet that does not go away. This evens out the xp somewhat by removing the "free xp" element from the process, and governs when characters can enter a chrysalis.
2.2) as 2.1, but characters gain back their spent xp
Flaws: complicated.

3.1) Characters are given temporary chrysalis**, and when they hit 10, they enter a chrysalis as normal, and gain 2 points of permanent chrysalis.
3.2) As 3.1, but they do not gain xp for chrysalis points
Flaws: while this system preserves, imo, the feel of the chrysalis mechanic, it also preserves its overpowering nature, with time as the only real balance.  It is also largely out of player control.

** Chrysalis may only be gained in response to characters behaving in a manner appropriate to their archetype.  So, when characters do something appropriately awesome (masterful/powerful/aberrant for Monsters, cool/impressive/influential for Marvels, portentious/insightful/enlightened for Portents), they qualify to gain Chrysalis, or convert temp. taint into temp. chrysalis.

Yet another worry for this is HOW TO MAKE CHRYSALIS FAIR, as it basically gives freebies to people just for checking off the teragen box on their sheet.

Should other players start getting little goodies, like backgrounds and skills for staying in touch with their humanity?
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:00, Mon 02 Nov 2009.

I posted my idea for chrysalis knowing that it was depowering the chrysalis process, and knowing that it did take away much of the crunch driven flavour.  I do think, though, that those of us who appear to be heading towards teras and chrysalis are portraying our characters in ways that line up with the archetypes for marvel and portent (i don't think we have any would be monsters) and since i've seen nothing but mature, responsible decisions here in regards to character growth and power acquisition I'm pretty sure that none of us will go mad with the power granted via chrysalis, nor will we just use it as a fast track to kicking Cueball's ass.
I do like 2.2, if it works the way i believe it does it's elegant, but it does have the big fat problem of being powerful.  really powerful.  Unless you don't get the break for power costs normally granted via the process.  In which case it simply becomes a strict method of banking xp.
One thing that I don't see, or am failing to understand, in options 2.1-3.2 is how we gain chrysalis style taint (i.e. controlled mutation) via the process.  Are we going up to 10 (as in permanent chrysalis) which means 6 increasingly powerful aberrations, or are we going to 10 as in temp chrysalis, thereby gaining none, at least by raw?  if we do go all the way to 10 permanent we're going to be really, really, really alien: permanent powers, personality disorders (megalomania would fit at least a couple of us) and things that would make it very, very hard to pass for Utopianites.
This is not meant as criticism, just me thinking my way through.  If Chrysalis does become just so much flavour, without the power or the mutations, I would still be fine with it, and interested in having Imp pursue it, but that does take away from the from accepting my nature i gain understanding, from understanding i gain power and control that teras is all about.

In reply to Impetus (msg #3):

ah, I re-read what you are talking about.  I was under the assumption that the rules stated temp chrysalis was reset to zero, and marked the point at which you could actually enter the cocoon, but it is permanent chrysalis... That changes things.

I'll edit with that in mind.

I am not sure I understand the motive behind 10 temp turning into 2 perm in most of the examples here - that's sort of unintuitive given the already existent system of both Taint and Chrysalis.

I'm not sure I'm fond of any of the systems presented so far (including the one in the book). I agree that the default system seems dumb - you only get cool by sucking (generally botching) and you get to pay basically half price for a nice package of goodies.

I do like the idea of evolution by fulfilling an archetype (which our nascent Teragen in-game have yet to define). I think its nice for there to be some sort of break in costs associated with it (though perhaps not one as drastic as the one presented in the Teragen book). My line of thinking is that by focusing yourself along this archetype you're following a road that is, while perhaps not already paved, at least vaguely defined - it simplifies the process. Now, the big question is one of game-balance, as not everyone is pursuing Teras. I think perks associated with maintaining humanity are not out of the question, but we'd want to ensure that those perks equal those gained by pursueing the transhuman state.

I think that was probably a lot of rambling without much substance. Hrm.

In reply to Gravitas (msg #5):

Permanent is normally reset every time you come out of the cocoon, but aberrations just keep accruing. It makes more sense that Chrysalis be a more permanent trait, like Taint.  But to do that, and keep it a limited process (even Mal only undergoes... 4 I think?), and to give it consequences (aberrations don't even start popping until 4 chrysalis/taint), I set it at 2, not 1, permanent chrysalis per.

That said, I'm not set on anything, I really just like to get some input from other people, and what they want to see.  And what they think would be fun/useful to play with.

Mal has only undergone that much because he only relatively recently discovered the process (probably within the last 10-20 years) and it does take time to build up enough to be able to undergo the process. For a process that is supposed to be about self-evolution, it seems weird to put any sort of cap on how many times it can be done.

I can see it both ways, especially when you look at the fact that second gen novas don't have all the weird taint (and thus chrysalis) issues.  But as state, I'm fine with other ideas, just put 'em up, and we can take a look at them.

So, votes?  Suggestions?  Novel ideas?

I am somewhat ambivalent about the precise mechanics behind chrysalis, but I think that it is probably fair to hand out some dots in Allies, Backing and Contacts to non-chrysalis team members.  Since the biggest downside of Chrysalis is the distance it puts between you and human authorities, emphasizing that bond for the non-Teragen PCs might help.  Skills ... I would not hand out anything more than a third dot in an ability in this way.

Exact ratio?  Not sure.  I'll ponder it.

I really need to go find my Teragen book again and read the specific rules before I weigh in on this, though I'm not really averse to any of the suggestions so far.

What if we just made a similar mechanic for the non-teragen members, chrysalis is about personal evolution and enhancement, spend a few months in a cocoon to make yourself more awesome. Perhaps a 'connection' mechanic would be appropriate. Spend a few months mingling/inspiring/contemplating/exploiting baselines to emphasis your connection to them. More or less equal xp breaks, though perhaps a slightly different emphasis.

It would also allow the whole team to be doing something while half of us are in Chrysalis states.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:01, Wed 04 Nov 2009.

In reply to Solitaire (msg #11):

Interesting, I kind of like the idea.  It is also a nice time alternative to dealing with the chrysalis... I just assumed that time would be their burden, or that chrysalis would be limited to downtime only, but this gives another option.

Also, it makes sense.  Eruption can give you backgrounds and skills too, but the chrysalis process is all about your super cool Q abilities.  What about those that want to develop the rest?

<hate>Oh, and as far as the rules... White Wolf sucks at rules.  In pretty much every possible way.  The best thing they ever did was decide on rolling d10's based upon dots on character sheet, and its all been downhill from there.  Even their modern systems have serious issues (exalted, I'm looking at you; nwod... you have issues too, they're just stealthy), and they tend to try and cover up most of them.  Example: high end play - The xp tables and their ridiculous pricing are the only barriers in most systems made by the company.  They just hope you won't go there in the first place, so that way they don't have to worry about a coherent, cohesive system.  Exalted created the "perfect" as a shotgun solution, but that just shifted the problems to mote attrition, and right back to xp (combos are pricey).</hate>

You leave Zeal alone!!  Or Quantum Inferno.  Or any power at all with lvl 2 mastery, save glow.
Speaking of XP and high end play, you do realize that for those of us at or near the 200xp mark it's going to take us 2 years to hit the 500xp mark, if we post every day, or at least 6 days a week.  If this game is still running in 2 years time I'm more than a little worried about what we will have accomplished.  Will we be in The War?  trinity era?  2010?  Imp not know.

Dear gods ... Zeal.  *eyes glaze over.  Cue flashbacks and the Lonely Man theme from the Incredible Hulk*

Yeah, mechanics fail a bit.  That's why we fix everything we can.  All I need to say is d20 and I end the mechanics debate solidly in White Wolf's favor (at least as far as Aberrant is concerned).

I am fully in support of a Connection / Chrysalis track.  I'd crunch numbers, but I am grading exams right now.  Maybe Thursday I'll play with the numbers a bit.

Alright, so I started comparing Experience Tables.

Chrysalis Experience Point Costs


Note: in Chrysalis, only Attunement, Dormancy and Node backgrounds may be purchased.

More analysis to come.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:52, Wed 11 Nov 2009.

Thematically, I think Connection should cover those things that Chrysalis doesn't, it should be about becoming more human (or at least retaining that aspect), whereas Chrysalis is about becoming more than human.

Problem is, the non-quantum aspects of Novas are already dirt cheap to develop, and it doesn't give XP breaks on the Cool Powaz. Its  an interesting situation. Perhaps it could give a greater emphasis on Mega-Atts, whereas Chrysalis could do Quantum fireworks, as Mega-Atts are normal traits taken to absurd ends, but you will never see a baseline with laser eyes. Or perhaps a 2/3 split, Physical/Mental for Chrysalis and Social/Mental for Connection.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask our non-Terats what they want out of their xp break. The mechanic is for them.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:12, Wed 11 Nov 2009.

Well ... realistically, cutting the XP cost for Attributes and Abilities would work just fine for me.  If I save on attributes, I get to sink those points back into powers and extras later.  It balances.

After all, if we were really worried about balance, we wouldn't be using the White Wolf XP and char-gen systems.  Not only are the powers unequal in price and effectiveness (why would anyone buy Claws to 5 instead of just boosting their strength, for example) but the juxtaposition of systems prompts weird decisions (must buy as many abilities and attributes as possible at char-gen, must avoid willpower at char gen) when people care.

So I don't care nearly so much.  Simplest system I have in mind is just Attributes: cr * 2, Backgrounds and Abilities: cr during that period that the Teragen characters are in Chrysalis.  I mean, Chrysalis comes with enough downsides (association with the Teragen, breaking of old contacts, rising penalties from the Taint and Chrysalis tracks).  And if things turn weird I guess we could just push Utopia to let us mimic Teragen methods to win the "arms race".

Which, in Leviathan's case, is a literal race for more arms.

I was going to mention some of that, you guys beat me to it.

I would say that willpower, bg's, atts, abilities, and specialties should probably all be half price, round up.  But ultimately I'd like to hear what non-terats have to say.

Also... we still never decided on a base system.  I'm open to other ideas of course, but we should probably figure something out before the year is up (rl, not game).

If we're using the Connections mechanic then I don't know if we have to meaningfully weakien crysalis.  Also, as Comstock said, by giving a point break on skills/baseline atts/backgrounds people can buy more, or use the leftovers to sink into their mojo.  If you're familiar with Scion and the training knacks you'll already be familiar with how many more dots in things you can get if abilities are cheap.  I hope things never get as stupidly cheap as the amazing teacher/amazing student combo, but it'll still give people more flex.  Especially people like Comstock who didn't twink out and buy as many atts and abilities as possible at char gen to maximize BP efficiency.
So, if we're going to use that, and the xp breaks/system for chrys stay, how will we determine chrys points?  Do we get a nod if we use our powers appropriately?  Act in ways befitting our achetypes?  Push our abilities beyond their breaking point?
Note that we're going to have to define our own archetypes.  Imp's a marvel, Grav's a portent (or said so months back), Sol's a, um, marvel methinks.  Zero would be a portent, again methinks.  Anybody else got a warm fuzzy spot for teras in the party?

I think that using the discount tables is just fine, both for connections and for chrysalis.

Having dots turn into XP is my only real problem, balance-wise, as people don't actually need a bunch of extra xp, and the discounts are already good.  If the dots were purchaseable with xp (and refunded later) I would have less problem.

I also have something of a problem with the way the chrysalis mechanic works, so some things I think should change are:
a) chrysalis entry should not involve a roll at any point
b) the process of gaining at least 3 new aberrations every chrysalis is insane
c) the permanent chrysalis track resets each time one comes out of chrysalis

I think I will propose a system, and see what you guys think.

Temporary Chrysalis is gained either by being exceptionally cool (in line with archetype, and handed out by GM or a majority vote by players), or by buying dots with xp (2xp?). As soon as the temporary track reaches 10, the points convert to a single point of Permanent Chrysalis, and the character begins to go into their hibernation.  They gain (20)xp, and may then spend points as per the chrysalis table in the Teragen book.  Chrysalis is added to taint for purposes of determining aberrations and other effects based upon taint, but remains playable until actual taint reaches 10.  Finally, when a character would gain a major aberration from a high taint+chrysalis score, they instead may take a medium and minor aberrration.

Connection works virtually the same way, but does not add to the effective taint, instead subtracting from it for purposes of penalties to interaction with baselines and lower quantum novas.  The delay on point expenditure represents time spent being human (engaging in human activities, performing actions the "hard" way, developing relationships, and working within the norms/mores of the character's society of origin).  Connection points are gained via xp expenditure or by being an exemplar of humanity (whatever that means... I'll hopefully know it when I see it, and players will hopefully point out moments they feel are appropriate).

Chrysalis has more negatives, but should be a bit easier to get free points in, and has more powerful options.  Connection is a beneficial trait on its own and allows players to quickly increase all their normal traits, but ends up adding less overt power.

Comments?

I have questions.
If Caroline does botch her chrysalis roll... I mean, um, er, fails to come out of the quantum cocoon, then Imp will probably resist going into the state himself until she comes out of it.  This may be indefinite.  Unless you have no choice but to begin metamorphosis when you hit 10.  Is this the case?
Also, can we bank xp for when we enter chrysalis?  Do we spend it as per the rules in teragen, or are we limited to using the 20(?) xp banked via paying for the dots of chrysalis?
Does the Perm chrysalis resetting every time mean that Imp, for example, will hit 4 Taint/Chrysalis (3/1) each time he enters the cocoon, thus gaining one new, minor, aberration, unless he either A) buys something tainted, or B) ups his node/quantum ratings?
Can people play both sides?  Sort of like in KOTOR when you can do darkside things, then rebalance with lightside and vice versa to remain neutral, could you be all johnny quantum the demigod for a few months, then be joe blow average for a while and run up both tracks?  I'm guessing that none of us here are min maxing power gaming twinks (save myself) but I have been wrong before.
Or more realistically/less twinky, what happens if Comstock, who passionately (or as passionately as he can) wants to remain average dude, does the Connections thing, then gets swayed to the darkside by Zero's androgynous jumpsuit clad wiles, and becomes a terat.  can he then gain chrysalis points?

Hates... you...
Thinking bad... :)

But anyway... how does this make you feel?

Warm and fuzzy with just the faintest hint of tentacles.

Does permanent chrysalis max out at 10? If it does, I object rather strongly. There should not be an artificial limit to the number of times one can undergo autoevolution, to put such a limit would seem to deny one of the major points of the philosophy behind Teras (the sky is the limit, or actually it isn't, because there isn't a limit to what a nova can do given time and determination). I mean, by this system, Mal should probably have about Taint 4-5ish and Chrysalis 12 - he's undergone the cocoon process like 4 times by 2008 and does another between 2008 and 2010 if I recall (or shortly thereafter).

uhm... where do you get chrysalis 12?  You get a single point of chrysalis for each time you enter a cocoon, putting him at 4.

And as far as 10 being the end, well, perhaps it isn't.  Perhaps you are just so transcendent that you stop playing, or perhaps you've hit your final, transcendent state.  Either way, it's virtually impossible to reach in game.

That wasn't clear from the earlier description - I didn't know that crysalis was required once the temp reached 10 - that's a change from the system as it was.

Operating on the probably erroneous assumption that Mal plays by the same rules as the rest of us mere demigods, he's probably got 4 taint from his quantum rating(8) and 3 from node (5, assumedly), giving him a minimum taint of 7.  Of course being a cheating GMPC he probably gets to ignore things like that.  It must be because he has arms....

He almost surely has the Mega-Int enhancement that allows you to ignore taint from a high node rating, so more like 4 if he has no taint from anything else.

Gah, totally forgot about that one.  good catch.

I want to bring up DV's again.  They are too high.  Suggestions please?  The current formula is posted in the first post of this thread.

We could move to something more akin to NWoD (lowest of either [Wits+M.Dex] or [Dex+M.Dex], which also removes the need to track multiple attacks/actions as they affect DV (a good thing) but this removes skill from the equation.  It can also still get fairly high, albeit with a great deal more xp spent.

We could also just round down instead of up on a lot of things, or... I don't know.  I'm open to suggestions.

Another thing we could/should also do is start adding M.Str as dice on attacks... Doing this would have to replace auto successes on any such attack.  Perhaps one could even mix/match at their preferance, leaving some for damage only, and some for attack resolution.  While this boosts str, I think it is balanced, especially since Dex is currently THE combat stat, serving as both attack and defense.  I think it is only fair to make Str matter a little more on the offensive.

Hurm.  You're right.

The problem here is one of the 90's era game lines (oWoD, Trinity, Aberrant, etc.) versus the 2000's era game lines (nWoD, Exalted, etc.)  In the old lines, initiative was more tactically involved and it was necessary to take an action to defend yourself from harm.  When we discussed Defense Values for this Aberrant game, we forgot to include this in our calculation.  If you wanted to attack and defend, it was necessary to split your actions.  Taking two actions meant -2 on the first action, -3 on the second, etc. etc.

A blanket -2 on DVs should restore the balance to the way it was.  That carries the assumption that the character had to "split his/her die pool" for a defend action.  Taking no action besides defense would allow you to keep your current DV.  In fact, since I hate keeping track of DVs, a blanket -3 DV would cover taking a single action in your turn and then we could ignore Onslaught penalties, which are a little out of place in a supers game.

Strangely/alarmingly, Comstock's already piss-poor DV now drops to zero.  But that has to be, since soak is so damn effective in these rules.

I agree with your assessment, but I'm not fond of the -2.  That effectively eliminates the lower end DV's entirely.

Before further discussing solutions, a quick question for EVERYONE: Should DV's be a) the threshold of successes required to hit (exalted), or b) a dice penalty to the attackers pool (NWoD)?  The difference is that in exalted, people are exceedingly hard to hit (slowing things down, but preventing massive damage from occurring constantly), while in nwod people are likely to hit more often (speeding things up, but in NWoD damage isn't as EXTREME as it is in Exalted or Aberrant).  The answer to this question will determine the course I want to take from here.

Some other issues that come up with dv's btw:
1)when making DV a result of the combination of att+skill+m.att, you end up with basically 50/50 chance to hit between equally skilled characters... until you start applying defense modifying powers, like hyperspeed.  There is no "attack upping" power that I'm aware of, aside from Luck (which can also be used on defense).  So, once powers come into play, defense wins; dice pools can't ever scale as high.

2)DV's derived from attributes/m.atts only (take lowest of x and y; nwod style) suffer from a different issue, namely that they punish some characters more than others, and they still have very high caps for those willing to specialize... it just takes longer.

3)What about onslaught penalties?  They make sense, but they complicate tracking in an online format.  My whole point in adding a DV is to limit complications, but I think it may still be worthwhile to maintain the onslaught penalties despite complications.

Oh, I updated the rules post, #7 and #8 are new.

Storyteller has never been the soundest foundation.  I'm going to hold off, though, since my character will be the one least impacted.

Skipping back a few steps, did we settle on temp chrysalis costing 2xp?

So, the dv thing... How does this sound?  If there are no objections, I'll go with it.

DV = (lower of DEX or WITS divided by 2, round down) + (ATHLETICS or MARTIAL ARTS divided by 2, round down) + (higher of M.DEX or M.WITS, divide by 2, round up)

This rewards the mega atts while preventing them from being a full +5 to the DV, and makes DV's lower on average than the success rate of an equal die pool.  It also doesn't necessarily reward a total min/max on DEX.

Edit: this would be a constant value, unaffected by things like multiple actions.  Perhaps a pile on penalty of 1 per extra attacker over your mega perception or something.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:07, Fri 04 June 2010.

i suck, i forgot to add divide by 2 on the megas. corrected.

I don't like it, to be blunt.  It makes it almost impossible to make a character that relies on speed and agility to not get hit: aka, the paper ninja/glass cannon.  If we use Imp as an example, he has dex/wits 5, ath/ma 5, and mega dex 4.  using current rules he's sitting at a 9 dv.  Using the new rules he'd be sitting at 7.
On an average roll Imp won't hit himself at 9.  Sure, it's possible, easily possible, to tag 10 sux with his die pool (Max of 22. Including re-rolling 10s and the sky's the limit).  At 7 however, he's going to hit himself more often than not. Also, it really weakens the mega dice, which in theory are twice as potent as their lesser kin.
I think the issues that you're having with dvs is that there are quite a few characters in the party that are pushing the limits of dex based defense (Imp, Sue, and Sol if i figure correctly).  We only really have 1 person chasing the brick archetype (Comstock) and, when he hits his total buffed soak of 40/34 he too is almost impossible to meaningfully threaten (am curious what his agg soak is).  Granted he has put a lot more resources into defense than Imp has, but getting 10 sux on an attack roll is far more likely than getting 36 on damage (assuming M.str 5, str 5, claws 5).
Adding in people who have gone for both soak and dex or other stuff (absorbtion) and you've got people who are really hard to deal with.
Which, perhaps, is as it should be.  Imp is about as dangerous socially as Geisha, it stands to reason that people who have been putting most of their xp into combat stuff should be at the apex of power in that arena as well.
If we do switch to these lower dvs (which I won't complain about after posting this), could I request that it occur after the current showdown in the garage in Mexico?  I'm more than a little concerned that Imp won't survive that fight as it stands...

We can switch after mexico (thus they would apply to the Columbia thread).  I will take your concerns under consideration, and offer my take on it.

The dice system for hit vs. dodge has always been a little wonky, providing a huge advantage to dex characters that isn't necessarily appropriate (which I think current rules we are using help to mitigate), but for dex vs. dex, it is at least mathematically equivalent, if still being extremely random, due to the nature of mega-dice and such.  Someone will end up hitting most likely in any given exchange.  With the DV system we were using however, all things being equal, you end up with characters that are likely to spend several rounds hitting nothing but air.  Then, when you add in powers that hike defense, you get to the point that even on exceptional roles, people are barely hitting (there are no powers other than luck, to my knowledge, that up accuracy; there are several that up defense).  This is a problems for the system, and especially a problem for online play where things that drag on too long become boring and people lose interest.

Further, m.dex is certainly not being shortchanged in the deal.  It still is used for a majority of the important roles in the game.  This mirrors the soak provided by m.sta for lethal damage.  It also makes speedsters more impressive, since any gains from hyperspeed and other powers are NOT part of the formula, and thus have their full values applied when applicable.  Diluting dex further by adding wits to the formula... That was the one I was unsure on, and I would like to hear if people would like that to go away, in addition to any further comments on this change.

Oh, also note that this number is not affected by multiple actions, so while your first defense in a round may be lower, it is ultimately to the advantage of the player concerning multiple attacks.  I was unsure however on whether to use perception or wits to determine how many attacks one can dodge without penalty, and whether to use just megas, or to just do it like the above formula for mega-stam (1/2 round down for normal, 1/2 round up for mega).  Comments on this would also be helpful.

Ok.  I don't mind the dex/wits thing, however, according to your formula our dvs would be lower yet, since you've divided dex/wits by two, rounding down, and then taken athletics/ma and divided them by two, rounding down again, which would make Imp's dv 6 instead of 7, as it would be with dex/wits+ma/ath divided by two. 6 seems problematically low, whereas 7 doesn't worry me as much, for some reason...  It does mean that you've addressed the problem of dex monsters being unhittable, as without adding in def increasing powers they'll hit 7 maximum, but it does so by making anyone who plans on getting into combat need to take some soak buffers or aforementioned dv buffers in order not to get turned into a fine red mist.
Speaking of mist, Imp may be looking at buying force field sooner than anticipated...

As I already indicated, I'm not switching over in the Mexico thread.  That will conclude with the old system, no arguments.  That said, I do not have a problem with the new system, in part because it is fairly simple to pick up further DV enhancers.

Examples off the top of my head:
1) without even touching powers, cover and other equipment can do the trick, giving +1 or +2 DV depending (and, Rydi, that is probably the easiest solution, since cover and defensive equipment can be destroyed thusly, making them ablative protection and very in genre ... stuff has to get smashed up and broken in superhero fights!);
2) Hypermovement adds one DV per level in any circumstance where you can turn up the speed;
3) the Superheavy Armor enhancement adds soak and +1 DV;
4) Gravitas' Gravatic Shield subtracts its power rating in successes from oncoming projectile attacks, which might as well be called + power rating in DV.

I'm not worried, but that's not entirely fair since I've been running NPCs (who are supposed to get beaten anyway) and Comstock (who can be beaten upon but rarely risks harm).  I also think that hitting your own DV more often than not is a good sign, since the alternative is fights that don't involve anyone hitting anymore.  The only stat that seems like it is being devalued a bit is Mega-Dexterity ... which was already very powerful anyway.  Do I like Wits in the equation?  Were I doing game design, maybe, but in this case no.  I like Mega-Wits being  a factor just fine.

Oh, White Wolf.  Why must you ooze flavor yet fail on crunch?


Sidenote: Comstock's aggravated soak is ... you know, agg is so rare I haven't calculated it.  Now I have to check which powers actually don't count.  Hurm.

I appreciate the input so far.  I know our group is light on rules lawyers (something that I think makes this a fun group btw) but I'd love hearing from the other players if they have an opinion.

Once this DV thing is done, I think the house rules for this game will be pretty much complete, at least until something major comes up to bite us in the butt :)

9)Taint from Rapid Quantum Regeneration
The roll listed in the book doesn't do anything, and is even less meaningful in the PbP environment.  New rule: each rapid recharge nets you 1 temporary taint.

Any serious complaints?  It would be nice to see temporary taint once in a while, or ever.

Is it still possible to somehow transmute this into chrysalis?

In reply to Gravitas (msg #44):

If doing so is thematically appropriate, then yes.

Amended chrysalis to account for that cap I spoke of previously.  The cap on xp spent in chrys/connection is 45 until someone convinces me otherwise, and makes max time spent out of play just shy of a year.

I updated the rules, and separated them into categories for easier reference.  Please reference them on the first post of the first page.

I standardized combat a bit more, and made some changes to DV, extra actions, etc.  Complain here if you hate something.

Rydi, questions i have.

The course of the degenerative condition is based on node + quantum:
9-10 = -3 to mega atts, with acute period of -4
7-8 = -2 to mega atts, with acute period of -3
5-6 = -1 to mega atts, with acute period of -2
All individuals will find their quantum pool depleted; at the early stages it is a -10 to total q, but it will quickly progress to the point that the nova can maintain no more than their Quantum (big Q) in quantum pool.  During the acute stage, the nova will initially become ill, then lose all ability to hold quantum in their pool.

Those below 5 still have minuses, but they merely take a minus during the acute period.  The symptoms ramp up slowly, peak, then slowly dissipate; the process takes Q+node months to fully resolve for those of Q+node > 5, and weeks for those of 5 and below.  Assuming no cure, there will be permanent minuses randomly determined as the quantum pattern of the nova never fully recovers.

Does this mean that since Imp's (and almost everybody else, i think) at 10, his symptoms would go something like:
In the first 4 weeks he's at -1 to all mega attributes.  The next 3 weeks would be -2, the next 2 weeks would be -3, and then the next 4 weeks -4.  Then he'd drop back to -3 for 4 weeks, -2 for 5 weeks, and then -1 for the last 6 weeks. Or something like that?  Would him training to try to mitigate these losses (possible only with those atts he's not at 5 in) be possible? Would he/we be paying xp costs based off our pre-infection levels? Would we only be able to buy them up to 3 (if they're non core) so that we would eventually be left without those atts and their respective enhancements regardless of said training/xp expenditures?

Other factors can complicate this, such as Quentin's super node, which will result in derangements, or the "chi manipulation" involved with Dragon's tai chi will mitigate the symptoms somewhat.  Those with body mods and such will find them not performing well, and creating health problems.

Post-chrysalis Terats are impacted even more by this process, as they suffer more than others from social and self-esteem issues in addition to power loss.  Oh, and they tend to have their power "short out" more erratically than others, and have minor derangements surrounding their sense of self and identity ("I'm a Marvel goddamn it! I will FLY off this building, even if it kills me..."  "Who am I?  I... I'm not this... I don't understand, what's going on?") Dissociative fugue, delusions, and other breaks with reality would be some of the more common.

Ok, more of the crazy then.  Got it.  Will our powers just short out entirely/erratically?  Will they weaken?  Will these issues follow the same pattern of intensity as the mega atts, or will they be purely sporadic/plot devicium failures?

If graphed, the symptoms would provide a jagged curve with a positive skew... Rather than forming a regular curve, symptoms Peak earlier and taper off slowly.

---

For those interested in where this plot connects to the larger setting, and those looking for plot hooks:

1) The nova infertility issue is connected to the degeneration, primarily in that they share a mode of delivery.  Finding a cure to one could help with the other, and insight into one might reveal the nature of the other.

2) The plot is meant to reveal the machinations of Utopia, not as the primary culprits, but rather inadvertently as the details of the degeneration is uncovered

3) The villain is intimately connected to nova society, and is working with the U.S. government, for whom the "shadow man" is an operative

4) As some of you have likely guessed, this plot takes characters "full circle", back to their days as a baseline.  No cure will be found that will prevent the onset of the acute, debilitating stage.  It's necessary for plot.  Nor will there be a "certainty" that any cure will work or return characters to normal.  The emotional uncertainty is there to provide drama and force people to address what they became, what they have to lose, and what they might have to settle for if their powers never return.  There is of course a cure, but the characters don't get to know that until it's administered and the degeneration has ran its course.

5) This plot was meant to introduce the Directive.  Depowered novas with strong
connections, limited options, and a lot of field experience are appealing operatives.  I want to introduce this right after powers bottom out.

6) Teragen characters will see friendships dissolve, self identity become exceptionally confused, and find old enemies treating them little better than baselines.  How does it feel to be one of the masses?

---

Any questions?  I'll address them on the OOC thread.

That's roughly correct, though the first several weeks would be no symptoms at all.  I would advise not spending xp on improving any nova traits during this period.  The temporary forced stabilization of your degrading quantum pattern would likely not be retained permanently, and if they were it would cost additional xp.  And yes, old caps still remain.  Training might be able to mitigate losses for a short time, but the big problem is that the organ controlling all your quantum powers is shorting out, so most solutions stemming from extra quantum training will not last... That said, I could see training getting you perhaps one or two stable mega attributes that suffer a lesser penalty.

Powers aren't lost, but since you have no quantum in your pools, they are basically inaccessible.  You might be able to do a node recharge and use that instant of extra quantum before it dissipates to "spark" a power briefly, and Dragon's tai chi will let him retain a small amount of q, but for the most part you can't use powers without q.

As far as crazy goes, it isn't insanity exactly, especially for the terats.  But as you've functionally remade your core conception of yourself, there is a schism when you lose the traits that that conception was formed around.  How each nova handles that though, is very personal and unique to the individual.
Unless their taint resistance from mega-int is reduced and their monster node starts pressing on their brain and causing taint based derangements, in which case they are in fact insane.  Poor Quentin.

So, p.134 of the main book talks about "qualities" (attribute specializations) and how they let you reroll 10's.  Most people forget this, and it adds extra effort to the dice roll.  From now on, we'll just count 10's on normal dice as 2 successes, and 10's on mega-atts give 3 successes as normal.


I also noticed that we stopped using the DV's we had been using.  Fine with me, it was kind of a flawed, makeshift convention anyway.  While I'd eventually like to fine tune some sort of DV system just to make posting easier, I'm not sure anyone really cares enough about the rules to bother.  For the time being we'll just continue rolling our e-dice and move along.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:23, Tue 02 July 2013.

Combat
DV's are out.  They were being used inconsistently, and they never quite captured what we were looking for.  New rules give you a pool equal to your normal dodge, that I will roll in response to your attacks (you still get to make your dodges, describe actions, declare dodge priority, etc).  This is to reduce posting lag, and I promise to be fair with the rolls (little secret, I'll probably use average successes most of the time, unless it's really important).  My greatest priority in combat is making sure it flows as quickly as possible, and stays entertaining.  Full rules are written on the first post of this thread, and are actually much more lenient than standard rules (free dodge, lower penalty for split dodge, etc.)

Alternate Mega-Enhancement Pairings
Not all Mega-Enhancements require their listed Mega-Attribute as a per-requisite.  Some may be paired with other appropriate Mega-Attributes.  The book suggests this if I remember correctly, and it just makes for better play.  Good Examples include Quickness (Dexterity instead of Wits), Discerning Mind (Manipulation instead of Intelligence, or Charisma for a variant enhancement with a similar effect), and  Halo (Charisma instead of Appearance).  While these changes must still be approved, and should not be seen as a carte blanche solution to xp and Mega-Attribute tension, this is a good option for character building and limiting people branching into things they aren't suited to just to get access to a single key enhancement.

More lunkheadedness:

So, I pick 2 Virtues (I sorta had my eye on Hope and Justice).  By roleplaying these 2 Virtues (I assume an instance of either Virtue would count?) I get an opportunity to spend 2xp to get a point of Temporary Connection.  When that track reaches 10, I go on pilgrimage/sabbatical/spiritual retreat/family reunion for a period of time and my Permanent Connection goes up by 1.  At that time, I can spend up to 45xp using those reduced costs associated with Connection.  Did I miss anything?

In reply to El Dragon (msg # 52):

Sounds right. Though we've been pretty fast and loose with the rules, so I don't think you'll have to grind out all 10 pts worth of dots, more like just play out the appropriate traits in game.

Updated Connection costs in the first post.  They are a tiny bit cheaper now.  If you used connection to purchase stuff, feel free to give yourself the points back.  Willpower is the biggest reduction (now .5 x current, round up), while the others just lost the extra 1xp I added to them for some inexplicable reason.

http://www.soulfire.net/Aberrant/

Avilister added the Aberrant Companion, a small collection of new traits.  A few are broken, so as usual run things by me first if you take them, but the material is mostly open for use.

Since the index shortens the names of the files its the "Fan Companion" which is, specifically, this one: http://www.soulfire.net/Aberra...0Fan%20Companion.pdf

Sages of Ruleness (basically anybody that wants to chime in, although the STs will ring the loudest, obviously), I have a question.
I'm envisioning Paidrag/Mechanus as a brutal, straghtforward brawler, and Sean/Wheelman as a more calculated melee(er). I'm thinking about having Sean use a sword and shield (calculated offense and defense).

What is the best way to have a real, physical, sword (and shield) that would be able to grow and shrink with him when he does likewise, and wouldn't be tuned into scrap metal when he hit stuff/got hit?  Storywise, Rachel Alinsky could easily be the maker (Sean is DeVries, after all), and I was thinking attunement would perhaps cut the mustard, but after re-reading it, it doesn't.

For the shield, I'm thinking of having the force-field power, but have it channeled through a bracelet/gauntlet/McGuffin and have it project a shield of force that would be size appropriate.

The crunch (if it's important) problem with the sword would be that, realistically, it should do more damage when it's 6-8 ft long (or 12-16ft, if things go a bit crazy later) than when it's 3-4 feet long.

In sum, what's the best (coolest, non-twinkiest) way to have a physical sword that is basically indestructible, grows and shrinks with him, and could possibly do more damage as he grows (cool, but non-mandatory)?

I would think that the easiest way to handle it would be as a gadget, though I recall there being a Body Modification expansion in The New Flesh called Limb Blade that might be of use.

Sword Possibilities:
-Attunement to a sword-gadget, the only power being that it grows in size/dmg
-quantum weapon power with some limiters
-a more complex gadget that has an appropriate set of built in powers, attunement not required

Shield Possibilities:
Basically the same as above, replacing qw with ff.


Personally, I like the idea of just a growing sword/shield that add dice like normal armor/swords, albeit large versions of each.  Shield rules are on pg 131 of the New Flesh, and there's some rules for masterwork weapons in there too.  I'm not keen on items with powers in them overall, at least not unless they are wielded by the person that made them, but I'm open to it if you are extremely interested in it.

Let me know where you want to go with things, and we can detail the options you are interested in a bit further.

Personally I'd just Claw and Force Field/Armor it, and call it special effects. If it's really necessary to make some distinctions, figure it out as weaknesses and get them cheaper/more awesome. But I play a fair amount of M&M so that's probably where a lot that comes from.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:04, Tue 01 Oct 2013.