I really need to go find my Teragen book again and read the specific rules before I weigh in on this, though I'm not really averse to any of the suggestions so far.

What if we just made a similar mechanic for the non-teragen members, chrysalis is about personal evolution and enhancement, spend a few months in a cocoon to make yourself more awesome. Perhaps a 'connection' mechanic would be appropriate. Spend a few months mingling/inspiring/contemplating/exploiting baselines to emphasis your connection to them. More or less equal xp breaks, though perhaps a slightly different emphasis.

It would also allow the whole team to be doing something while half of us are in Chrysalis states.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:01, Wed 04 Nov 2009.

In reply to Solitaire (msg #11):

Interesting, I kind of like the idea.  It is also a nice time alternative to dealing with the chrysalis... I just assumed that time would be their burden, or that chrysalis would be limited to downtime only, but this gives another option.

Also, it makes sense.  Eruption can give you backgrounds and skills too, but the chrysalis process is all about your super cool Q abilities.  What about those that want to develop the rest?

<hate>Oh, and as far as the rules... White Wolf sucks at rules.  In pretty much every possible way.  The best thing they ever did was decide on rolling d10's based upon dots on character sheet, and its all been downhill from there.  Even their modern systems have serious issues (exalted, I'm looking at you; nwod... you have issues too, they're just stealthy), and they tend to try and cover up most of them.  Example: high end play - The xp tables and their ridiculous pricing are the only barriers in most systems made by the company.  They just hope you won't go there in the first place, so that way they don't have to worry about a coherent, cohesive system.  Exalted created the "perfect" as a shotgun solution, but that just shifted the problems to mote attrition, and right back to xp (combos are pricey).</hate>

You leave Zeal alone!!  Or Quantum Inferno.  Or any power at all with lvl 2 mastery, save glow.
Speaking of XP and high end play, you do realize that for those of us at or near the 200xp mark it's going to take us 2 years to hit the 500xp mark, if we post every day, or at least 6 days a week.  If this game is still running in 2 years time I'm more than a little worried about what we will have accomplished.  Will we be in The War?  trinity era?  2010?  Imp not know.

Dear gods ... Zeal.  *eyes glaze over.  Cue flashbacks and the Lonely Man theme from the Incredible Hulk*

Yeah, mechanics fail a bit.  That's why we fix everything we can.  All I need to say is d20 and I end the mechanics debate solidly in White Wolf's favor (at least as far as Aberrant is concerned).

I am fully in support of a Connection / Chrysalis track.  I'd crunch numbers, but I am grading exams right now.  Maybe Thursday I'll play with the numbers a bit.

Alright, so I started comparing Experience Tables.

Chrysalis Experience Point Costs


Note: in Chrysalis, only Attunement, Dormancy and Node backgrounds may be purchased.

More analysis to come.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:52, Wed 11 Nov 2009.

Thematically, I think Connection should cover those things that Chrysalis doesn't, it should be about becoming more human (or at least retaining that aspect), whereas Chrysalis is about becoming more than human.

Problem is, the non-quantum aspects of Novas are already dirt cheap to develop, and it doesn't give XP breaks on the Cool Powaz. Its  an interesting situation. Perhaps it could give a greater emphasis on Mega-Atts, whereas Chrysalis could do Quantum fireworks, as Mega-Atts are normal traits taken to absurd ends, but you will never see a baseline with laser eyes. Or perhaps a 2/3 split, Physical/Mental for Chrysalis and Social/Mental for Connection.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask our non-Terats what they want out of their xp break. The mechanic is for them.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:12, Wed 11 Nov 2009.

Well ... realistically, cutting the XP cost for Attributes and Abilities would work just fine for me.  If I save on attributes, I get to sink those points back into powers and extras later.  It balances.

After all, if we were really worried about balance, we wouldn't be using the White Wolf XP and char-gen systems.  Not only are the powers unequal in price and effectiveness (why would anyone buy Claws to 5 instead of just boosting their strength, for example) but the juxtaposition of systems prompts weird decisions (must buy as many abilities and attributes as possible at char-gen, must avoid willpower at char gen) when people care.

So I don't care nearly so much.  Simplest system I have in mind is just Attributes: cr * 2, Backgrounds and Abilities: cr during that period that the Teragen characters are in Chrysalis.  I mean, Chrysalis comes with enough downsides (association with the Teragen, breaking of old contacts, rising penalties from the Taint and Chrysalis tracks).  And if things turn weird I guess we could just push Utopia to let us mimic Teragen methods to win the "arms race".

Which, in Leviathan's case, is a literal race for more arms.

I was going to mention some of that, you guys beat me to it.

I would say that willpower, bg's, atts, abilities, and specialties should probably all be half price, round up.  But ultimately I'd like to hear what non-terats have to say.

Also... we still never decided on a base system.  I'm open to other ideas of course, but we should probably figure something out before the year is up (rl, not game).

If we're using the Connections mechanic then I don't know if we have to meaningfully weakien crysalis.  Also, as Comstock said, by giving a point break on skills/baseline atts/backgrounds people can buy more, or use the leftovers to sink into their mojo.  If you're familiar with Scion and the training knacks you'll already be familiar with how many more dots in things you can get if abilities are cheap.  I hope things never get as stupidly cheap as the amazing teacher/amazing student combo, but it'll still give people more flex.  Especially people like Comstock who didn't twink out and buy as many atts and abilities as possible at char gen to maximize BP efficiency.
So, if we're going to use that, and the xp breaks/system for chrys stay, how will we determine chrys points?  Do we get a nod if we use our powers appropriately?  Act in ways befitting our achetypes?  Push our abilities beyond their breaking point?
Note that we're going to have to define our own archetypes.  Imp's a marvel, Grav's a portent (or said so months back), Sol's a, um, marvel methinks.  Zero would be a portent, again methinks.  Anybody else got a warm fuzzy spot for teras in the party?

I think that using the discount tables is just fine, both for connections and for chrysalis.

Having dots turn into XP is my only real problem, balance-wise, as people don't actually need a bunch of extra xp, and the discounts are already good.  If the dots were purchaseable with xp (and refunded later) I would have less problem.

I also have something of a problem with the way the chrysalis mechanic works, so some things I think should change are:
a) chrysalis entry should not involve a roll at any point
b) the process of gaining at least 3 new aberrations every chrysalis is insane
c) the permanent chrysalis track resets each time one comes out of chrysalis

I think I will propose a system, and see what you guys think.

Temporary Chrysalis is gained either by being exceptionally cool (in line with archetype, and handed out by GM or a majority vote by players), or by buying dots with xp (2xp?). As soon as the temporary track reaches 10, the points convert to a single point of Permanent Chrysalis, and the character begins to go into their hibernation.  They gain (20)xp, and may then spend points as per the chrysalis table in the Teragen book.  Chrysalis is added to taint for purposes of determining aberrations and other effects based upon taint, but remains playable until actual taint reaches 10.  Finally, when a character would gain a major aberration from a high taint+chrysalis score, they instead may take a medium and minor aberrration.

Connection works virtually the same way, but does not add to the effective taint, instead subtracting from it for purposes of penalties to interaction with baselines and lower quantum novas.  The delay on point expenditure represents time spent being human (engaging in human activities, performing actions the "hard" way, developing relationships, and working within the norms/mores of the character's society of origin).  Connection points are gained via xp expenditure or by being an exemplar of humanity (whatever that means... I'll hopefully know it when I see it, and players will hopefully point out moments they feel are appropriate).

Chrysalis has more negatives, but should be a bit easier to get free points in, and has more powerful options.  Connection is a beneficial trait on its own and allows players to quickly increase all their normal traits, but ends up adding less overt power.

Comments?

I have questions.
If Caroline does botch her chrysalis roll... I mean, um, er, fails to come out of the quantum cocoon, then Imp will probably resist going into the state himself until she comes out of it.  This may be indefinite.  Unless you have no choice but to begin metamorphosis when you hit 10.  Is this the case?
Also, can we bank xp for when we enter chrysalis?  Do we spend it as per the rules in teragen, or are we limited to using the 20(?) xp banked via paying for the dots of chrysalis?
Does the Perm chrysalis resetting every time mean that Imp, for example, will hit 4 Taint/Chrysalis (3/1) each time he enters the cocoon, thus gaining one new, minor, aberration, unless he either A) buys something tainted, or B) ups his node/quantum ratings?
Can people play both sides?  Sort of like in KOTOR when you can do darkside things, then rebalance with lightside and vice versa to remain neutral, could you be all johnny quantum the demigod for a few months, then be joe blow average for a while and run up both tracks?  I'm guessing that none of us here are min maxing power gaming twinks (save myself) but I have been wrong before.
Or more realistically/less twinky, what happens if Comstock, who passionately (or as passionately as he can) wants to remain average dude, does the Connections thing, then gets swayed to the darkside by Zero's androgynous jumpsuit clad wiles, and becomes a terat.  can he then gain chrysalis points?

Hates... you...
Thinking bad... :)

But anyway... how does this make you feel?

Warm and fuzzy with just the faintest hint of tentacles.

Does permanent chrysalis max out at 10? If it does, I object rather strongly. There should not be an artificial limit to the number of times one can undergo autoevolution, to put such a limit would seem to deny one of the major points of the philosophy behind Teras (the sky is the limit, or actually it isn't, because there isn't a limit to what a nova can do given time and determination). I mean, by this system, Mal should probably have about Taint 4-5ish and Chrysalis 12 - he's undergone the cocoon process like 4 times by 2008 and does another between 2008 and 2010 if I recall (or shortly thereafter).

uhm... where do you get chrysalis 12?  You get a single point of chrysalis for each time you enter a cocoon, putting him at 4.

And as far as 10 being the end, well, perhaps it isn't.  Perhaps you are just so transcendent that you stop playing, or perhaps you've hit your final, transcendent state.  Either way, it's virtually impossible to reach in game.

That wasn't clear from the earlier description - I didn't know that crysalis was required once the temp reached 10 - that's a change from the system as it was.

Operating on the probably erroneous assumption that Mal plays by the same rules as the rest of us mere demigods, he's probably got 4 taint from his quantum rating(8) and 3 from node (5, assumedly), giving him a minimum taint of 7.  Of course being a cheating GMPC he probably gets to ignore things like that.  It must be because he has arms....

He almost surely has the Mega-Int enhancement that allows you to ignore taint from a high node rating, so more like 4 if he has no taint from anything else.

Gah, totally forgot about that one.  good catch.

I want to bring up DV's again.  They are too high.  Suggestions please?  The current formula is posted in the first post of this thread.

We could move to something more akin to NWoD (lowest of either [Wits+M.Dex] or [Dex+M.Dex], which also removes the need to track multiple attacks/actions as they affect DV (a good thing) but this removes skill from the equation.  It can also still get fairly high, albeit with a great deal more xp spent.

We could also just round down instead of up on a lot of things, or... I don't know.  I'm open to suggestions.

Another thing we could/should also do is start adding M.Str as dice on attacks... Doing this would have to replace auto successes on any such attack.  Perhaps one could even mix/match at their preferance, leaving some for damage only, and some for attack resolution.  While this boosts str, I think it is balanced, especially since Dex is currently THE combat stat, serving as both attack and defense.  I think it is only fair to make Str matter a little more on the offensive.

Hurm.  You're right.

The problem here is one of the 90's era game lines (oWoD, Trinity, Aberrant, etc.) versus the 2000's era game lines (nWoD, Exalted, etc.)  In the old lines, initiative was more tactically involved and it was necessary to take an action to defend yourself from harm.  When we discussed Defense Values for this Aberrant game, we forgot to include this in our calculation.  If you wanted to attack and defend, it was necessary to split your actions.  Taking two actions meant -2 on the first action, -3 on the second, etc. etc.

A blanket -2 on DVs should restore the balance to the way it was.  That carries the assumption that the character had to "split his/her die pool" for a defend action.  Taking no action besides defense would allow you to keep your current DV.  In fact, since I hate keeping track of DVs, a blanket -3 DV would cover taking a single action in your turn and then we could ignore Onslaught penalties, which are a little out of place in a supers game.

Strangely/alarmingly, Comstock's already piss-poor DV now drops to zero.  But that has to be, since soak is so damn effective in these rules.

I agree with your assessment, but I'm not fond of the -2.  That effectively eliminates the lower end DV's entirely.

Before further discussing solutions, a quick question for EVERYONE: Should DV's be a) the threshold of successes required to hit (exalted), or b) a dice penalty to the attackers pool (NWoD)?  The difference is that in exalted, people are exceedingly hard to hit (slowing things down, but preventing massive damage from occurring constantly), while in nwod people are likely to hit more often (speeding things up, but in NWoD damage isn't as EXTREME as it is in Exalted or Aberrant).  The answer to this question will determine the course I want to take from here.

Some other issues that come up with dv's btw:
1)when making DV a result of the combination of att+skill+m.att, you end up with basically 50/50 chance to hit between equally skilled characters... until you start applying defense modifying powers, like hyperspeed.  There is no "attack upping" power that I'm aware of, aside from Luck (which can also be used on defense).  So, once powers come into play, defense wins; dice pools can't ever scale as high.

2)DV's derived from attributes/m.atts only (take lowest of x and y; nwod style) suffer from a different issue, namely that they punish some characters more than others, and they still have very high caps for those willing to specialize... it just takes longer.

3)What about onslaught penalties?  They make sense, but they complicate tracking in an online format.  My whole point in adding a DV is to limit complications, but I think it may still be worthwhile to maintain the onslaught penalties despite complications.

Oh, I updated the rules post, #7 and #8 are new.

Storyteller has never been the soundest foundation.  I'm going to hold off, though, since my character will be the one least impacted.

Skipping back a few steps, did we settle on temp chrysalis costing 2xp?