jase
 admin, 2144 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 17:37
Easy Tables and Grids.
How would people like...
    [smarttable]
    +---------------------------------+
    { Heading }{ heading2 }{ heading3 }
    [         ][          ][ boo      ]
    [ apple   ][ banana   ][ carrot   ]
    +---------------------------------+
    [/smarttable]


And even more simply (but ugly);
    [smarttable]
    +-+
    {Heading}{heading2}{heading3}
    [][][boo]
    [apple][banana][carrot]
    +-+
    [/smarttable]


To turn out looking like this?
    Headingheading2heading3
    boo
    applebananacarrot


You wouldn't be able to get all the left/right alignment that the full blown table stuff can do, but it might be of help to people who want a nice HTML table but don't know all the commands, and find it looking rather messy.


Next, grids.

After sleep, and probably some real work.

This message was last edited by the user at 16:10, Mon 15 Apr 2013.

spoonk
 member, 68 posts
 Don't Feed the Trolls
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 17:51
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I could see my self using the top one more often as I might want to make one table field longer then the next.  IF it would be possible that is.

Your Example
[smarttable]
+---------------------------------+
{ Heading }{ heading2 }{ heading3 }
[         ][          ][ boo      ]
[ apple   ][ banana   ][ carrot   ]
+---------------------------------+
[/smarttable]



Mine
[smarttable]
+---------------------------------+
{ Heading }{ heading2 }{ heading3 }
[                     ][ boo      ]
[ apple   ][ banana   ][ carrot   ]
+---------------------------------+
[/smarttable]

The grids it self sounds great, if you are talking like a Map Grid or something like that.  Great for sowing your players what the battle field looks like for better strategic maneuvers and or even use of spells.  Would be so much better then the text based grids you see some GM's use.  Plus would be so much faster then making one from scratch.  Like this example I have from on of the games I am in.  Would be nice if you would just click a place on the grid and it adds a solid block.  Then add a character representation some how.  Okay this is now getting complicated but the idea is still sound I think.


::::::::::::::::::::::::********************************
::::::::::::::::::::::::**ta.......a........../-----\.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**.s..................|bbbbb|.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**....................|bbbbb|.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**....................|bbG..|.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**....................|bb...|.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**..............N.....|bb.../.**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**................hJ..\____/..**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**.................h..........**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**............................**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**............................**
::::::::::::::::::::::::**..........................a.**
**************************.......***********************
**************************.......*******
**************************.......*******
**************************.......*******
**************************.......*******
**************************.......*******
**************************.......*******

This message was last edited by the user at 18:02, Thu 02 Apr 2009.

nauthiz
 member, 73 posts
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 17:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
As an additional way of doing tables, I would't mind it.

Though for those of us who can fumble around with the current code just well enough, it seems like it might be a bit of a different take which would lead to more work if it was a One or the Other sort of choice.
Utsukushi
 member, 630 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 17:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
The easier tables would be pretty helpful, I think.  I'm assuming that, as with a lot of the other things you've talked about implementing, it would be an addition, and not a replacement, to being able to do them the harder-but-more-customizable way?
bigbadron
 moderator, 10195 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 17:57
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Those tables look considerably easier to work with than all that <tr><td>...</td><td>...</td></tr> stuff.

The first example, in particular, shows you exactly how it will all be laid out, so you can instantly see if something isn't quite right.

I think it would certainly make tables in character sheets, for example, more practical.
jase
 admin, 2145 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 18:30
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
My two examples used the word "AND".  Both would do the exact same thing, my test code already converts both (and anything inbetween) into the final result.

It's not mystically matching up ]'s (etc) within the table with ones above and below it, it's just turning ] into </td> etc etc (which is why the amount of spacing does not matter, ergo why both examples return the same output).

Not sure about getting it to span two cells like in your example, spoonk.  I'd probably have to use something like [2 to span 2 cells.  I was actually going to allow people to use the character immediately after the cell opening to specify the horizontal alignment, but if cell spanning is more popular then I could do that instead.

(Alignment would have been done via the > < and ^ symbols, i.e. [>right] [<not right] [^centre/center/middle].)


For grids... I'm not sure how to get the user to draw them yet (ideas welcome), but it'd turn out something like;
AAABACADAEAFAGAHAIAJAKALAMAN
1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2~
3~
4~~
5~~
6~
7~
8~
9~~
10~~
11~~
12~~
13~~
14~~
15~~zF

... They're all not exactly square because this is a rough example.


Hmm, I was doing that bed thing.  2:30am, oops.
spoonk
 member, 69 posts
 Don't Feed the Trolls
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 18:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hahaha, I know how that goes Jase.  I wasn't looking for a response so soon because you did say you were going to bed.  I took and as meaning two different system so that was my bad.

The idea behind the adjustable width of cells is so that a more uniform and or logical lay outs for creating Character Sheets.  I am not a fan of text based character sheets and use third party character sheet websites.  As I prefer to see a character sheet I my self end up making two character sheets.  One for the GM on how he prefers the text based system and my more traditional Table Top edition.  I'm sure some one right now could even make such a code but with the level of the complexity it is now to create one the non coders wouldn't even want to touch it with a 50 foot pole.  I don't even know the system but if I had the time and motivation I could learn the system.  At the moment I lack both and feel that your first example would be best to visually see what fields need to be changed and where.  Perhaps even adding the code to the heaven section as a uniform for the RPOL community.

As this is a different discussion from the Character sheet with Forms link to a message in this forum discussion, I am keeping the issues separate.  Even with out the form ability, being able to visually see what a table should look like will perhaps make them more acceptible for potentil players of using the system.
Yoss
 member, 926 posts
 A Serious Waste of Time
 The largest game on RPOL
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 20:22
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Cool idea jase.  Question though, why do you need the "+-----+" section?  From what I can tell you're just creating a lookup table to convert brackets to html tags something like what I've listed below.  I can't figure out what the plus-minus-plus would convert to in the html.


HTML           SmartTable
<table><tr>    [smarttable]
</tr></table>  [/smarttable]
</tr><tr>      \n (newline character)
<th>           {
</th>          }
<td>           [
</td>          ]


Did I guess right?  As a suggestion, you might consider shortening "smarttable" to something like "st" or "stable" or "txtable" in order to save typing.
Whimper3
 member, 16 posts
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 22:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Wow, I love it.  I use plain ascii tables and grids all the time because it's easier to see what I'm going to get.  With SmartTables like the one in your example, I'd know right away what my table would look like.
ashlayne
 member, 1392 posts
 Go ahead. Feel superior.
 Makes my life easier.
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 22:57
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I fully agree that that would be an excellent, and widely used, tool. I did a game a while back that I would've loved that for... the <td><tr><etc> tags just messed with my mind when creating, so I wound up making tables in OOo Writer, then c&Ping section by section while adding the code. But yeah, that's a really awesome idea.

I agree with the shortening of the tag code, though. (1) It gives it more of a "coding" feel ^_^ and (2) it helps those of us who fly through the keyboard normally. Only a few keystrokes to stop and think about as opposed to several. Tags should be user-friendly, though, so if <smarttable> is more "common sense" than <st> or the like, then that would be better. OTOH, most of us in Community Chat use random, nonexistent tags for the Vent and Antivent threads, so I guess length isn't really a concern. ^_^;
Alhaja
 member, 216 posts
Thu 2 Apr 2009
at 23:41
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
That's very clever and easier to read than all the html code for a table.

Spanning several cells would be nice -- can we even do that with html at the moment? I think I'd prefer alignment, though, if I had to pick between the two.
katisara
 member, 3924 posts
 All is hardcore
 when made with love
Fri 3 Apr 2009
at 13:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Yes, easy grids would be very nice.
jase
 admin, 2160 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 3 Apr 2009
at 17:13
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Yoss (msg #8):

The +---+ makes it look better when laying it out.  It also lets you have more than two tables in one section (and even other stuff inbetween) as it's them that trigger <table> and </table>.

What other portions trigger what is subject to change at this stage, but no, a new line wasn't automatically a new table row.


Still not sure on the grid design, needs to look square'ish when composing.

[A][B][C]
[1][2][3]
[A][B][C]
... possibly looks best, though it's pretty cramped.

[ A ][ B ][ C ]

[ 1 ][ 2 ][ 3 ]

[AAA][BBB][CCC]

Might also work, I can allow both by ignoring blank lines and white space after [ and also before ].



HTML can span cells, vertically and horizontally even.  It looks like people would prefer left/right/centre alignment.
Yoss
 member, 933 posts
 A Serious Waste of Time
 The largest game on RPOL
Fri 3 Apr 2009
at 18:10
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jase:
The +---+ makes it look better when laying it out.  It also lets you have more than two tables in one section (and even other stuff inbetween) as it's them that trigger <table> and </table>.

It seems a bit odd to me to have to type the <st> and </st> tags and then +-+ at the top and bottom.  Why not just have <st> start the < table > tag?

quote:
a new line wasn't automatically a new table row.

Out of curiosity, how are you triggering the < tr > tag then?  Without the newline character, wouldn't everything be on the same row?

quote:
Still not sure on the grid design, needs to look square'ish when composing.

[A][B][C]
[1][2][3]
[A][B][C]
... possibly looks best, though it's pretty cramped.

[ A ][ B ][ C ]

[ 1 ][ 2 ][ 3 ]

[AAA][BBB][CCC]

Might also work, I can allow both by ignoring blank lines and white space after [ and also before ].

Ignoring the white space seems prudent in order to get the input to look like the output.  When you have variable length input strings, it will start to not line up if you don't allow white space.

Option A
[A][Bbbbbbbbbbbbb][C]
[111][2][333]
[A][B][Ccc]


Option B
[A  ][Bbbbbbbbbbbbb][C  ]
[111][2            ][333]
[A  ][B            ][Ccc]


I'm guessing Option B would "b" more popular.

quote:
HTML can span cells, vertically and horizontally even.

RPOL does not currently support "colspan" and "rowspan" as tag modifiers though, last I checked.

quote:
It looks like people would prefer left/right/centre alignment.

Defaulting to centered for the smart tables seems like it would save trouble.  If you allow tag modifiers, the smart table format will not look quite so smart any more.  I'd say keep the st simple (maybe call it "simpletable" instead?) and save the tag modifiers for the actual html version.
Rhuie
 member, 133 posts
Fri 3 Apr 2009
at 18:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I would love to use those grids, especially for tactics-heavy games like D&D 4E. Much appreciated!
jase
 admin, 2164 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 4 Apr 2009
at 02:20
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Yoss (msg #14):

(Start of line) + any number of spaces + { = <tr><th>
} + any number of spaces + (end of line) = </th></tr>
(Start of a line) + any number of spaces + [ = <tr><td>
] + any number of spaces + (end of line) = </td></tr>


Option B on its own is not an option.  By allowing any number of spaces and new lines it allows for (as I said) both.


Alhaja asked "can we even do that with html at the moment", I thought she was referring to actual html.


And read my proposed method for alignment please (msg #6).  1 character, I'm sure it won't break the bank.
megadeus
 member, 1149 posts
 'Twas brillig and the
 slithy toves...
Sat 4 Apr 2009
at 22:22
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
What about using something like PHP Markdown Extra's simple tables. They're really easy to use and the code is already written under an open-source license (BSD-style).

Basically, one types something like the following:

First Header  | Second Header
------------- | -------------
Content Cell  | Content Cell
Content Cell  | Content Cell

and it gets rendered like this:

First HeaderSecond Header
Content CellContent Cell
Content CellContent Cell


I think this makes sense because it's easy to remember how to do (just use dashes and pipes) and the author can easily visualize what the table will look like when rendered.

Side note: the more I read about Markdown, the more I want to implement it in every web project I touch. (I may start another thread espousing the benefits of Markdown and make a case for Markdown-style formatting on RPoL)
jase
 admin, 2169 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Sun 5 Apr 2009
at 00:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
That's certainly a possibility, a few notes regarding it;
  • You have to have the table header.
  • You cannot use table headers anywhere else.
  • It allows alignment based on a whole column.


It certainly seems a nicer way to do it than mine, but not quite as flexible.

My suggestion can do:

{ Header 1 }[ Data 1.1 ][ Data 1.2 ]
{ Header 2 }[ Data 2.2 ][ Data 2.2 ]

... So we're probably talking about flexibility vs ease of use here, I'll you guys sort out which you'd rather.  (c;
Utsukushi
 member, 636 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Sun 5 Apr 2009
at 01:21
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
It seems like you already have flexibility in using the standard codes...so if you're implementing easy tables and grids, whatever makes them easier is probably the way to go.

Once we have people hooked on building tables, then they can go into the FAQs and learn how to make them do tricks...
megadeus
 member, 1150 posts
 'Twas brillig and the
 slithy toves...
Sun 5 Apr 2009
at 05:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jase (msg #18):

Understood. I'm not sure how much tinkering you would like to do in terms of reverse-engineering the Markdown code (which is also available in Perl, I've just remembered), but it might or might not be possible to change the way the hyphens and pipes are parsed into html table elements.

Example:

------------------------
Data 1 | data 2 | data 2
------------------------
content| text   | stuff
------------------------

The first line of hyphens indicates the start of a table, the pipes indicate separate fields, the line of hypens between table cells indicates a new table row, and the final line of hyphens indicates the end of the table.

This gets around the question of requiring the table header be the first row.

If you wanted table headers elsewhere (e.g. the leftmost column),  you could use something like Markdown's "emphasis" or "bold" syntax: surround the desired field's text with asterisks or underscores.

---------------------------
*Header1* | data 2 | data 2
---------------------------
*Header2* | text   | stuff
---------------------------




Also, I think  I'm with Utsukushi on this one: if we want an easy way for non-expert users to make tables, the limitations you mentioned in msg#18 are reasonable concessions in the name of ease of use. Complex tables can be created by hand or using one of a number of online table-writing tools.
jase
 admin, 2170 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 5 Apr 2009
at 05:35
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm happy to implement our own rendition of what the majority wants.  Few points though;

With your modifications they're starting to look pretty similar, just different text triggers.

While I'm happy (eager, even) to come up with easy, clean and nifty ways to design tables, grids etc etc, unless some kind of code becomes the defact web-standard I'll be pretty adverse to implementing it on RPoL.  Otherwise next thing we'll be supporting UBBC, Markdown, Wiki... the list goes on.  And they'll clash plus bog down the system.
Digital Mastermind
 member, 325 posts
 7 years of Rpol,, where
 has the time gone?
Sun 5 Apr 2009
at 08:27
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Not the easiest thread to follow/catch up on but I can assure you that many would appreciate easier access/usage of tables.
Yoss
 member, 936 posts
 A Serious Waste of Time
 The largest game on RPOL
Mon 6 Apr 2009
at 17:47
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Humm, I didn't know you could detect "start of line" and "end of line" without looking for the newline character.  But since you can, I agree that's best.  So we get the following conversions.


HTML             SmartTable
<table>          [st]
</table>         [/st]
<tr>             "start of line"
</tr>            "end of line"
<th>             {
</th>            }
<td>             [
</td>            ]
align="center"   ^ placed just after the [ or {
align="left"     < placed just after the [ or {
align="right"    > placed just after the [ or {

Plus, these would all ignore white space so that users can enter the data evenly spaced (Option B in my last post) or clumped up (Option A) and it gives the same result.



I really like this implementation, jase.  Well done!  (It's better than the Markdown option, for the reasons you listed in msg 18.)

The conversions to html will be done on the fly, right?  Meaning, the simple text entry is what's stored in the database, so that when you go back to edit you don't have to suddenly deal with the html.
jase
 admin, 2183 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 02:39
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
So the question still remains, do we prefer my suggestion:

Smarttable:

+---------------------------+
{First Header}{Second Header}
[Content Cell][Content Cell ]
[Content Cell][Content Cell ]
+---------------------------+



PHP Markdown:

First Header  | Second Header
------------- | -------------
Content Cell  | Content Cell
Content Cell  | Content Cell



Or some Frankenstein hybrid?  I'm happy to implement whatever, even come up with your own ideas.  I don't care what as long as it meets the major design goals: easy for users, looks like the end result.  It'd also be great if it had some minor flexibility.  There also has to be some kind of majority agreement on what's best, which we seem to be lacking at the moment.
Alhaja
 member, 223 posts
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 02:47
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Vote: SmartTable
pdubs83
 member, 91 posts
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 03:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm all for whatever is easiest to use and, personally, I think I'd have a hard time remembering when to use [ and ] versus { and }... I'm just thick like that though.  So... I'd shoot for the PHP version if those two options are the ones up for vote.
katisara
 member, 3953 posts
 All is hardcore
 when made with love
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 13:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Smarttable looks pretty sharp, and looks to require fewer keystrokes (and fewer esoteric HTML codewords).

Is there any particular difference in appearance of functionality between all of these different options?
Robin
 member, 617 posts
 The old grey wyrm
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 15:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
If I was typing up a table from scratch the Markdown system would be easier for me to remember. I get mixed up over <> and [] codes already. However, if SmartTable was implemented I would constantly refer back to an example like the one in msg #24, copy&paste and edit so I got the codes right. I expect there would be a suitable example presented in the FAQs or Help so it would be easy enough to find.

I would vote for SmartTable because I like the extra option of text alignment within cells.

Whichever way this goes, thanks Jase. This will be a real boon. The current tables codes has always scared me off from using them at all.
Yoss
 member, 952 posts
 A Serious Waste of Time
 The largest game on RPOL
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 20:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jase (msg #24):

I vote ST, but without the +------+ part.  The +---+ just adds typing for no benefit as far as I can tell.  If +-+ is what triggers the <table> tags, just change it so that the [st] tag does it instead (like in msg 23).

@kat: The SmartTable is more flexible than the Markdown.  Reference message 18 from jase.
Brygun
 member, 64 posts
 RPG since 1982
Sat 18 Apr 2009
at 21:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I just wanna say this looks very helpful.

Whatever the formatting command I do like seeing a marker for a blank cell so I can manually count the cell location.

e.g.

+-+3 (start table of 3 columns)
[1] [2] [3]
[] [] [4]

The empty markers being needed to make the 4 appear below the 3.

oh..an easy link to where ever the table manual is (once its finalized by those that know tables more than I)

This message was last edited by the user at 21:13, Sat 18 Apr 2009.

jase
 admin, 2186 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:32
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hmm, so it seems so far we have;

3 votes for php markdown
3 (4?) votes for smarttable (1 with modifications)
2 votes for either

Leaving all decisions up to me again, are we?  (c;
bigbadron
 moderator, 10267 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Smarttable +1.  Can't be leaving you with any choice.  :)
ornot
 member, 10 posts
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:41
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Looks that way Jase.

Personally I don't use the tables at present, and don't forsee needing to. That's probably down to laziness and lack of familiarity with markup language of any kind.
cruinne
 moderator, 4939 posts
 ''Grenades cost extra.''
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 13:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
make that smarttable +1 here, too.

If we're not going to ape HTML, there's no reason, to my mind, to ape some other system.
Foryn Gilnith
 member, 546 posts
 I intend to boldly go and
 split many infinitives
Tue 21 Apr 2009
at 00:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
cruinne:
If we're not going to ape HTML, there's no reason, to my mind, to ape some other system.

For website consistency, really, I'd like to second this. Mashing more than one imitation together will produce confusion. I don't really have much preference, since I'm unlikely to use either system anyway; but for the purpose of setting a design precedent I'd have to vote for smarttable - whether its current incarnation or a revised one.
Kalak_of_Tyr
 member, 4 posts
Tue 21 Apr 2009
at 08:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
smarttable too
megadeus
 member, 1151 posts
 'Twas brillig and the
 slithy toves...
Wed 22 Apr 2009
at 02:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hearing the arguments against Markdown-like tables, I rescind my recommendation to mimic Markdown's table structure.

The alternate simple table structure proposed in this thread would work just as well, and I agree that since Rpol has its own unique markup for most other features, it might as well be consistent in making up its own markup, rather than picking and choosing from a number of possibly-conflicting syntaxes.
fantasyknight
 member, 36 posts
Wed 23 Dec 2009
at 06:42
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I vote for the markdown. I know its not as versatile, but for the majority of the masses here on RPoL, its the simplest and easiest thing to use. Not to say that the SmartTable isn't going to be overly difficult, but for the most noob friendly implementation, it has to be the markdown.
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 1781 posts
 AKA Banaticus
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 06:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I like the one that's most similar to HTML, since virtually all of RPoL works with regular HTML tags instead of BB code.
matthewfenn
 member, 115 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 08:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Having just caught up on this thread and having missed it before - I'd vote for Smarttable.

Is it still possible to have multiple lines within a cell?

See below an example of how I've used the existing tables:

Note - one of the problems I've had is I can't force a column to a specific width.  You can force the table to 100% (or less), but not individual columns to say 50% sadly...  what are the chances of implementing that? he asks hopefully. :-)

LIFE: 57
CRMNLSTGRANT
C.HAND: 2  Grant Hand 4
C.DECK: 39 (60 card deck) Grant DECK 39 (60 card deck)
BATTLEFIELD:
Land
(-)Piranha Marsh (B)
(-)Swamp (B)

(-)Crypt of Agadeem (B)(see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/212.html]
Creatures
War-spike changeling (3/3,changeling)(R:1st strike)(runed halo)
[http://magiccards.info/mt/en/112.html]
Child of Night (2/1, lifelink)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/88.html]
Anowon, the Ruin Sage (4/3)on our upkeep, each player sacs a nonvampire)
 [http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/49.html]
 
Vampire Nighthawk (10/11, flying,deathtouch,lifelink)[8](runed halo)[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/116.html] (blade of bloodchief)
t-Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet (5/5)(BBB,tap: destroy creature, see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/99.html]
Vampire Aristocrat (6/6)(sac creature get +2/+2 for turn)[4](blade of bloodchief)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/117.html]
Black Vampire Creature Token (2/4)
Black Vampire Creature Token (1/1)

praguepride
 member, 312 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 14:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 for WYSIWYG table creation

I'd be a HUGE fan of cleaning up all those <td><tr>'s as it makes complicated grids very difficult to read.


When I was running maps in games I would constantly have to Preview to make sure I put stuff in the right box because when you get a 20x20 grid full of stuff, it becomes very difficult to keep track of as your vision is clouded by all the <td>'s and <tr>'s

It was even more difficult during a board game I tried to run as if you spend a lot of time to make your grid nice and readable, and someone "quotes" it and messes it up, then you're back with a huge blob again.
Zag24
 member, 308 posts
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 14:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I don't feel strongly about which form of simple table you implement -- the choices all seem ok and pretty simple to get right.  If I were to pick, I'd go with wiki table format, which is pretty easy and powerful, doesn't get in the way much.

However, one feature I would really like is some technique to convert the simple one to the more complex layout using the table, th, tr, and td tags that you already support.  I often start making a simple table and get half way into it before realizing that I want something more complex than the simple format supports.  If it were easy to convert -- a one-time, no way back conversion -- that would be super.
stm
 member, 28 posts
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 15:11
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'd say that WYSWYG editing is outside the scope of this thread. ;)

One argument against smarttable: Have some mercy with us poor non-english-keyboard users. It's really a pain to type "[]" or "{}" because it's AltGr + something over here.

For consistency reasons I'd stick with the <> idiom as much as possible (I'm constantly confused about the [list], and [code] tag). So


<smarttable>
Header 1 | Header 2
---
Field 1 | Field two
</smarttable>


would be my favorite. (My actual favorite would be the dokuwiki syntax, but you seem determined to do it your own way.)

This message was last edited by the user at 15:11, Thu 10 June 2010.

praguepride
 member, 313 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 16:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
It wouldn't be a complete WYSIWYG because of tags on the text, but otherwise it'd be nice to have a simple thing like a <tt> tag but one that arranges things a bit nicer with the solid lines etc.
ashlayne
 member, 1566 posts
 May you have exactly the
 God/dess you deserve. =p
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 03:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Praguepride: truetype already exists.
with code

F
 o
  r
   m
    a
     t
      t
       i
        n
         g

           w
           i
           t
           h

         T
        r
       u
      e
     t
    y
   p
  e
 !


showing code
<tt>
F
 o
  r
   m
    a
     t
      t
       i
        n
         g

           w
           i
           t
           h

         T
        r
       u
      e
     t
    y
   p
  e
 !</tt>
cruinne
 moderator, 5324 posts
 Jack, you have
 debauched my sloth!
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 13:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In addition to the teletype tag, there is also the <pre></pre> tag for "preformatted" text.  Teletype -- <tt></tt> -- is intended for inline text, and preformatted is for blocks of text.  Though, on RPoL, teletype preserves whitespace better than it does in normal HTML so can be used as ashlayne showed, above :-)
praguepride
 member, 320 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 15:59
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I already know about the <tt> tag, use it quite extinsively. I was using it as an example to show how much easier formatting is when you can just see it right there without having to surround every single word with tags.


Being able to <tt> but with a table as described in the OP would make tables & grids much easier to use from the perspective of someone who doesn't like having to dig through a whole mess of <td> and <tr>'s to find out what's what.


For example: I had a 16x16 grid for players to use as a map. They'd post their actions like: E5 to F9. Easy right?

But I would have to go through and count out where F9 was to get them moved to the right spot. Now make that a larger battle and I hope you see where it gets annoying. Even properly arranging your <td>'s into a grid still means you've got a lot of clutter on the screen.

Then, when I was done moving the PC's, I still had to figure out what the NPC's were doing. And again, because of the clutter of all those table tags, I usually ended up having to preview the post so I could see the nice clean table, and then write down the moves in notepad, re-edit the post and again count out where everything moved to.

In the end it became too much of a hassle so I went mapless, and that makes me sad as someone who likes playing with maps.

If the tables were simple and easy to see like in the OP with his "smarttable" example, it would have been nice and easy as I could see the grid laid out without all those tags extending the lenght of a line.

[] vs. <td></td> saves you 7 characters PER CELL. For a 10 length row, that's 79 characters of saved space. This avoid the line from wrapping, and makes it much easier to read.
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 1786 posts
 AKA Banaticus
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 19:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
You know, if you use Excel, you can just put characters or whatever in each cell, then "save as web page" then copy/paste the source of that into RPoL, since RPoL basically uses HTML tags for everything.
jase
 admin, 3072 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 14:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I've been working on the "easy" tables in conjunction with something else recently, and it quickly became apparent to me that having anything with an opening and closing character was rather... annoying.  Plus what stm said about non-english keyboard stuck in my mind.

So with that in mind I've ditched the original smarttable layout and gone with something between PHP Markdown, Wikis, and random voices in my head.  The reason I haven't gone with something in particular is there's no standard, so there's no reason for me to pick something that already exists, plus those I liked the most had severe limitations (such as PHP Markdown has to have a header row, and cannot have header cells anywhere else).

So, the new proposal for easy tables is that they are now constructed with simple pipe symbols at the start of a line, and separating each cell.

| Header | Header | Header |
|--------|--------|--------|
| Cell   | Cell   | Cell   |

Or ...
| Header | Header | Header |
|--------------------------|
| Cell   | Cell   | Cell   |


Or ...
|= Header  | Cell  | Cell  |
|= Header  | Cell  | Cell  |
|= Header  | Cell  | Cell  |

Characters immediately after the pipe affect the display of the cell.
  1. "=" denotes a header cell (TH)
  2. "^" means centre aligned
  3. ">" means right aligned
  4. "<" means left aligned
  5. A number means a columns span of that many columns.
  6. An additional full stop plus a number after the above means row span.

1-4 can be jammed up against the cell text (e.g. "=<Text"), however the column/row span require a space after them to avoid the table automatically grabbing text it shouldn't.  If your cell is going to have one of the special characters in it then just put a space after the pipe, which I'd recommend for good visual layout anyway.

This all happens without needing a encompasing wrapper.  To avoid ordinary pipe symbols being turned into a table, there has to be at least two lines starting with a pipe, the first line has to have at least two pipes in total.

e.g.


| Header | Header | Header |
|-   (enough to denote it's a table, plus at least one minus sign so it's considered a header)

Or ...
| Cell | Cell  | Cell  |
|    (enough to trigger the table conversion)

Trailing (end-of-line) pipe symbols are optional.

The table generation also takes lead from the first row in the table and assumes you want that many columns for the table.  Though you can exceed it later, the table will pad out the extra cells per row as it thinks they're needed.


| Header 1.1   | Header 1.2 | Header 1.3  |  1.4 |
|------------------------------------------------|
|>Header 2.1   | Cell 2.2   | Lazy...
|>2.3 Cell 3.1              | Cell 3.3    |> 3.4 |
                            |1.3 Cell 4.3 |^ 4.4 |
                                          |  5.4 |
| 6.1          | 6.2                      |  6.4 |

Will display something like:

Header 1.1Header 1.2Header 1.31.4
Header 2.1Cell 2.2Lazy... 
Cell 3.1Cell 3.33.4
Cell 4.34.4
5.4
6.16.26.4

This message was last edited by the user at 04:08, Fri 03 May 2013.

rogar308
 member, 323 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 15:16
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 for random voices in my head

I already use the |'s for tables in another wiki so that works well for me.
Maidenfine
 member, 78 posts
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 17:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 It's relatively simple for someone who just wants to do something quick. But it also allows for more complication if someone needs or wants it.
Lunarius
 member, 248 posts
 eadem mutata resurgo
 pax ex tyranny
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 19:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 if the current table method will still exist and this will be an additional option for formatting.
-1 if it will replace the current table method outright.
adrasteia1
 member, 1274 posts
 Even a small star
 shines in the darkness
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 22:48
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
That's very well thought out.

+1 as an additional and potentially simpler method for table creation.
-1 but (as Lunarius said) if it's to replace the use of the html table tags.
jmkool
 member, 250 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 29 Apr 2013
at 22:59
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
This seems well thought out, and much easier to visualize as it's being prepared.

+1 as an option, but -1 if it's to replace the existing method.  The current method, while more cumbersome, allows for more exactness.
jase
 admin, 3073 posts
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Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 00:34
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Breaking tables in the current 7 million posts seems a really good idea!
Lunarius
 member, 249 posts
 eadem mutata resurgo
 pax ex tyranny
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 00:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jase (msg # 55):

Too bad we're at the end of April; that would make one heck of a prank. :P
adrasteia1
 member, 1275 posts
 Even a small star
 shines in the darkness
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 01:07
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Well, I guess there's that..
Skald
 moderator, 413 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 05:47
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
VERY clever.

I like it ... but I'd also want an option to override, as I use character sheets which make extensive use of pipe symbols and don't know that I'd necessarily want them to turn into tables (though I'm sure a bit of beta testing would determine that one way or t'other).

Would/could the pre and/or tt tags override the smart table ?  Compared with 7 million posts, it'd be nothing for me to have to add tags to char sheets in my games if I needed to.

And of course, where would we be without feature creep ... would it be possible/desireable to add another control character (say ~) to hide the table lines (ie make 'em the same colour as the background) - sometimes it's nicer to set out data that way, and could be used to give the effect of set tabstops with a proportional font.
jase
 admin, 3074 posts
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Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 08:02
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Skald:
I use character sheets which make extensive use of pipe symbols

Yes, but I assume they're not the first character on each line.

   This | Will | Not
Trigger |    A | Table

| Nor | Will | One | Line

| Nor
| Will
| One
| Pipe


ThisWill
TriggerATable

Putting anything infront of the pipe (except a space) will stop the table triggering, so wrapping a pipe in tt or something will also do it, if for some reason you do need a bunch of lines starting with |.
matthewfenn
 member, 303 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 09:20
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jase (msg # 59):

Would this trigger a table?

.A.
B..
..C

jase
 admin, 3075 posts
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Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 10:42
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to matthewfenn (msg # 60):

Nope, doesn't meet the basic requirements.

Something similar will trigger the "easy grids".
Skald
 moderator, 414 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 12:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
You're absolutely right jase - none of my character sheets have the pipe as the first character, so all good.

Definite +1 from me, then. :>

Out of interest ... would a non-breaking space before a pipe at the start of a line stop the easy table from being triggered ?  If so, that'd be an easy out for anyone who wanted it using the ISO code &nbsp;
jase
 admin, 3076 posts
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Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 13:15
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Skald (msg # 62):

&nbsp; is stored and transmitted to the client as that (it's the browser that then makes it a space), so yes that'll fall into the "anything infront of the pipe" category.  (c;

<i>|</i> will also do it.

So will &#124; (that's the pipe symbol!).
rogar308
 member, 327 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Tue 30 Apr 2013
at 13:33
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 I can't help myself. I'm really excited about this one. Honestly, I probably won't go and retro fit all the like 50+ PC/NPC's we have but I'll almost certainly come up with a good template for implementation going forward.
jait
 member, 269 posts
Wed 1 May 2013
at 00:35
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1.

There's far more flexibility there than I'd expect.
jase
 admin, 3077 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Fri 3 May 2013
at 05:11
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I've updated the site so that the tables and grids will activate in this forum (only, 'cos I'm tricky like that), so you can now see real-world examples.

Feel free to compose and preview your own examples, but please don't spam the thread (and thus forum) with tests.  You can visit http://beta.rpol.net if you feel the need to post your tests.

Questions and idiosyncrasies which need examples are, of course, welcome.

If you check out some of the previous posts, they'll now render for real.

Grids now also work (this forum only), which includes matthewfenn's example/question in msg #60.  (c;

Small (size 1) grid:
A 
 B

Default (size 2) grid:
 12
Ax 
B x

Largest (size 5) grid:
A 
 B

We also now have a table width setting:
AWide
Table

Quote me to see the source.
Skald
 moderator, 415 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 3 May 2013
at 06:53
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Awesome ! :>

Now ... <smiles nervously>

Can we have a Grid (or EasyGrid) link beneath the compose message screen (suggest right next to the table link) to do all the hard work for the simplest grids/tables ?  Click to throw to pop up with the following inputs:

Rows    |2|  |x| Bold first row
Columns |2|  |x| Bold first column

Size    |2|v|


User enters no. of rows and columns in textbox (1 is allowable, but default to 2).If Bold first row or column checkboxes ticked then just add the = in each top and/or left grid cell ready for user to add text. Size dropdown list values 1 to 5 only.  Grid of required size appears as if by magic for user to type the text into the relevant cells.

Too easy !  Well, at least for our resident genius Admin ! ;>

Brought to you by the Grand High Poobah of Feature Creep !!!! <grrrins>

This message was last edited by the user at 06:55, Fri 03 May 2013.

jase
 admin, 3078 posts
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Fri 3 May 2013
at 10:01
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Skald (msg # 67):

Javascript popups can only prompt for one thing, which is why the multiple recipient window is a window.  I don't think the speed of that is appropriate for this use.

So we'd need some kind of modal (read as: complicated) window.  We could use jQuery to do, but RPoL currently doesn't use that... and then where into a whole lot of stuff to do one thing.  (c;
Skald
 moderator, 416 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 3 May 2013
at 12:39
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Modal window it is !  <grins>  No, seriously, fair enough - feature creep too far.  I can understand that's a lot more work and probably not appropriate.

Personally, I'd be REALLY happy typing:

3x4@2

into a single input box for a 3 row, 4 column, size 2 table (@ argument option, default to size 2) ?

... but I can understand if that's getting a bit obscure for anyone not old enough to remember the arcane switches from DOS (and for anyone out there who has to ask what DOS was, you're too young) !  ;>
rogar308
 member, 330 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Fri 3 May 2013
at 13:45
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'd suggest to make a table template and just copy and hack that. Granted it's not quite as nice but it gets the job done fairly quickly.
matthewfenn
 member, 304 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Fri 3 May 2013
at 16:21
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Is it possible to have more than one row of data in an individual cell?

Similar to


This data
is all
in one cell

As is
this data


Also, is it possible to set the width of a column to a % of the whole table?
matthewfenn
 member, 305 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Fri 3 May 2013
at 16:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Thought I'd revisit my post from msg#40 and see if these new tables would make it easier and smarter:

This was made using the <table><tr><td> structure etc:
LIFE: 57
CRMNLSTGRANT
C.HAND: 2  Grant Hand 4
C.DECK: 39 (60 card deck) Grant DECK 39 (60 card deck)
BATTLEFIELD:
Land
(-)Piranha Marsh (B)
(-)Swamp (B)
(-)Crypt of Agadeem (B)(see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/212.html]
Creatures
War-spike changeling (3/3,changeling)(R:1st strike)(runed halo)
[http://magiccards.info/mt/en/112.html]
Child of Night (2/1, lifelink)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/88.html]
Anowon, the Ruin Sage (4/3)on our upkeep, each player sacs a nonvampire)
 [http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/49.html]
 
Vampire Nighthawk (10/11, flying,deathtouch,lifelink)[8](runed halo)[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/116.html] (blade of bloodchief)
t-Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet (5/5)(BBB,tap: destroy creature, see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/99.html]
Vampire Aristocrat (6/6)(sac creature get +2/+2 for turn)[4](blade of bloodchief)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/117.html]
Black Vampire Creature Token (2/4)
Black Vampire Creature Token (1/1)


And this was made with the pipes:
LIFE: 57
CRMNLSTGRANT
C.HAND: 2Grant Hand 4
C.DECK: 39 (60 card deck)Grant DECK 39 (60 card deck)
BATTLEFIELD:
Land
(-)Piranha Marsh (B)(-)Crypt of Agadeem (B)(see link)  [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/212.html]
(-)Swamp (B)
Creatures
War-spike changeling (3/3,changeling)(R:1st strike)(runed halo) [http://magiccards.info/mt/en/112.html]Vampire Nighthawk (10/11, flying,deathtouch,lifelink)[8](runed halo)[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/116.html] (blade of bloodchief)
Child of Night (2/1, lifelink) [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/88.html]t-Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet (5/5)(BBB,tap: destroy creature, see link) [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/99.html]
Anowon, the Ruin Sage (4/3)  on our upkeep, each player sacs a nonvampire) [http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/49.html]Vampire Aristocrat (6/6)(sac creature get +2/+2 for turn)[4](blade of bloodchief) [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/117.html]
Black Vampire Creature Token (2/4)
Black Vampire Creature Token (1/1)

It certainly makes for a neater table - the columns are all in line.  Thank you Jase - an excellent improvement...

As a possible bit of scope creep, what I really want to be able to do is have carriage returns within a cell without forcing a new row.  For example, the Child of Night cell above should have the hyperlink showing on the 2nd line rather than on the same line.

Also, as mentioned in my previous post above, it would be great if it were possible to fix the % width of a column as well - in the example above, it didn't matter, because both sides of the table had lots of data in them, so it made them equal, but if the data were imbalanced, then the table becomes unbalanced as well:

TestTable
Small columnA wide column with lots of data in it that will wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap and wrap

jmkool
 member, 251 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Fri 3 May 2013
at 21:38
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I say not to get too picky about extra flexibility with the pipes.  We do, after all, have the detailed <table> mechanics if we need that.  We aren't looking to replace it, merely provide a qick shortcut for simple tables.
matthewfenn
 member, 306 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Sat 4 May 2013
at 10:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm not being picky.  The pipes make better tables in general I think.  The added feature I'd like to be able to see overall is the ability to force a column width...
jase
 admin, 3080 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Sat 4 May 2013
at 11:01
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
matthewfenn:
As a possible bit of scope creep, what I really want to be able to do is have carriage returns within a cell without forcing a new row.

Use "\n".
Greybeard
 member, 4 posts
Sat 4 May 2013
at 14:20
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Sorry if this has already been covered, but when can we expect to see these changes implemented in the rest of the forums (I'm actually interested in using the tables on the character sheets).

Thanks for all the hard work you put into the site. I think it's awesome.

-Greybeard
jase
 admin, 3082 posts
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Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Greybeard (msg # 76):

The reason I posted the proposed layout here was to make sure it worked, didn't interfere with other layouts, and provided the flexibility and capabilities that were desired.

Though I'm happy to increase the capabilities of it at a later time, I don't want to find myself in a situation where the framework we've decided upon limits our options.  For example, the fact we don't have the entire table wrapped in some [smarttable] tag means that the detection routine relies solely upon the pipe symbol at the start of each line... which means that each line is a new table row.

I think I digress ... It'll be rolled out once I'm satisfied those who'll use it are satisfied!  (c;
jmkool
 member, 252 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:28
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I've discovered that you can use some pretty short shorthand for the easy grid, so that's something I'll be using!  On the tables, though, I find that you have to put the cell size notation (rows.columns) after the header or text alignment notation.  Just thought I'd mention.

And, as a matter of fact, I will second the request for fixing the width of a single cell.  Perhaps a way to fix a cell at a certain % of the table's width?  Notation could be triggered with % followed by a number?  Don't know how this would conflict with cell size notation.
jmkool
 member, 253 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:30
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I will follow up with a second possibility.  Perhaps a means of forcing all columns to equal width would be sufficient?  Different widths can then be achieved by spanning multiple columns.
jase
 admin, 3084 posts
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Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:30
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jmkool (msg # 78):

Come up with a proposal.
jmkool
 member, 254 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:39
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
How about this:

Right after the closing pipe on the first row, before the table width notation, an = sign forces all columns to be equal width.  So the first row would be something like:

|= woo, header cell! | Other cell! |=40%

Will that do?
jase
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Mon 6 May 2013
at 05:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jmkool (msg # 81):

Column widths have to add up to 100%, so no.  Even if you used 50%, there's no number that will work for tables with 3, 6, 7, 8 etc columns.

This also limits it so the columns have to be the same width.
jmkool
 member, 255 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 06:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
My bad, the idea was that the = notation forced all the columns to be the same width (finding whatever percentage works) while the 40% was to indicate the total width of the table (a function that already exists, I believe).

As I mentioned above in a post, the 'same width' problem can be solved (at least I intend) by making certain cells span multiple columns, making a column twice (or more) as wide as the others,

This message was last edited by the user at 06:07, Mon 06 May 2013.

jase
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Mon 6 May 2013
at 06:38
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Simple, but are equal column lengths (or multiples thereof with spanning) really what people are after?
matthewfenn
 member, 308 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Mon 6 May 2013
at 07:07
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jase:
matthewfenn:
As a possible bit of scope creep, what I really want to be able to do is have carriage returns within a cell without forcing a new row.

Use "\n".
Ah!  That does the trick!  Thanks!
Jase:
Come up with a proposal.
Hmmm...

Just to refresh, this is the syntax proposed so far:
  • "=" denotes a header cell (TH)
  • "^" means centre aligned
  • ">" means right aligned
  • "<" means left aligned
  • A number means a columns span of that many columns.
  • An additional full stop plus a number after the above means row span.
How about a new symbol - say % followed by a number - for example:
|%50 First wide column |%25 Shorter 2nd column | shorter 3rd column |50%

That would give a table that was 50% of the screen width wide, with the first column 40% of the screen width and the second and third 20% each.  Note, last column doesn't need a number because it would be whatever was left to add up to 100% of the table width.  I would also suggest having the ability to set column widths be exclusive of spanning columns at the same time.

This message was last edited by the user at 07:09, Mon 06 May 2013.

rogar308
 member, 333 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Mon 6 May 2013
at 13:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
It is massively confusing to me to state the percentages are one number and then have them be a different number.

---

Generally speaking, I don't want all my table columns to be the same width. I want the column width usually equal to the size of the data in it. Barring that, some width that I can specify either exact or as a % that's easy to understand.
jmkool
 member, 256 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 18:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Let's see if I can explain my concept in more depth.

If all columns are equal width, you can make a 'column' (being all the cells in a column) span multiple columns (being what the code sees as a column).  For example, you have two columns, and you want one to be twice as wide as the other; you make your first column of cells be two cells wide, so the code thinks there are three, and divides accordingly, you just don't see column 2 because it's included in column 1.

Perhaps, as the example above, you want three cells, one to be half the width, each other to be a quarter.  Again, make your first column 2 cells wide, and the code thinks: 4 columns!  The first cell is thus 2/4 of the width, and the second and third are each 1/4.

This 'fractions' method seems most flexible to me, as it also allows for widths like 3/7, or 4/9.  You could even make two almost equal columns, one at a width of 3, the other at 2.  This divides them into 3/5 and 2/5 of the width, respectively.
rogar308
 member, 334 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Mon 6 May 2013
at 18:46
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I believe I understand what you are getting at just though I'm not sure why you want it. Personally, I don't think I have a need for it but I also understand that there may be others that do since many of us use the site somewhat differently and that is all well and good. For my use though, I'd like just a simple '|' delimited table that doesn't have a fixed width. I suppose anything in addition to that would be a bonus.
jmkool
 member, 257 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 6 May 2013
at 18:51
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm not saying we need it.  To me, it's more intuitive than the percentage method, and I'd find occasion to use it, but no complaints if it gets shot down.  I'm making a proposal, and I'm interested to see who likes it.
jase
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Tue 7 May 2013
at 02:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I still think setting individual widths, with something like matthewfenn's example, would be far more flexible and easier to use.

As for that example, it'll be problematic if you want to set spanning (after the %).  I think just "50%" would be easier, or ".50%" if it's after a span amount (span afterwards would just be "50%2.2").
jase
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Tue 7 May 2013
at 17:23
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
| Header 1.1      | Header 1.2  | Header 1.3   |10% 1.4 |50%
|-------------------------------------------------------|
|50%>Header 2.1   |25% Cell 2.2 |^Cell 2.3     |
|10%>2.3 Cell 3.1               | Cell 3.3     |< 3.4   |
                                |1.3 Cell\n4.3 |^ 4.4   |
                                               |
| 6.1             | 6.2                        | 6.4



Header 1.1Header 1.2Header 1.31.4
Header 2.1Cell 2.2Cell 2.3 
Cell 3.1Cell 3.33.4
Cell
4.3
4.4
 
6.16.26.4


I've now made it far more flexible with the formatting codes, though it's no longer as finicky as to what it'll gobble up.  It'll grab any combination of the alignment, colspan, rowspan and width codes and make what it can out of them.  The codes will be considered finished on either a space, or at the end of the =><^ options (or after it's grabbed about 15 characters).

So valid options are something like:
  • 50%>2.2 (trailing space compulsory)
  • >2.2.50% (trailing space compulsory)
  • 2.2>50% (trailing space compulsory)
  • 2.2.50%> (trailing space optional)
  • >2.2=50% (trailing space compulsory) (right aligned, 2 colspan, 2 rowspan, header, 50% width)
  • 2.2>50%= (trailing space optional)

Any attempt to set the width of a column that's already had it's width set will be ignored (cell 3.1 above has a 10% width, but this is ignored as 2.1 already set the width of column 1 to 50%).  Cells with a colspan are an exception to this, I'm not going to go so far as to check that the colspan=2 for cols 1 and 2 is less than colspan=3 for cols 1, 2 and 3.

Colspan, rowspan and width must all be one or two digits.  So no colspan=100 or cell width=100%.  Valued of 0 are also ignored.

If, for some reason, your cell data is going to be something like <<<50%>>> or ===2.2=== then put a space before the text, which (as previously mentioned) I'd suggest you get into the habit of anyway.
jmkool
 member, 258 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Wed 8 May 2013
at 03:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
*nod nod*

I may come to agree that this is better than my suggestion.  Looks good.
matthewfenn
 member, 310 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Wed 8 May 2013
at 18:50
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Superb!

And just to refresh my MTG two-headed giant example again:

LIFE: 57
CRMNLSTGRANT
C.HAND: 2Grant Hand 4
C.DECK: 39 (60 card deck)Grant DECK 39 (60 card deck)
BATTLEFIELD:
Land
(-)Piranha Marsh (B)
(-)Swamp (B)
(-)Crypt of Agadeem (B)(see link)
[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/212.html
Creatures
War-spike changeling (3/3,changeling)(R:1st strike)(runed halo)
[http://magiccards.info/mt/en/112.html]
Child of Night (2/1, lifelink)
[http://magiccards.info/m10/en/88.html]
Anowon, the Ruin Sage (4/3)  on our upkeep, each player sacs a nonvampire)
[http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/49.html]
Vampire Nighthawk (10/11, flying,deathtouch,lifelink)[8](runed halo)
[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/116.html] (blade of bloodchief)
t-Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet (5/5)(BBB,tap: destroy creature, see link)
[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/99.html]
Vampire Aristocrat (6/6)(sac creature get +2/+2 for turn)[4](blade of bloodchief)
[http://magiccards.info/m10/en/117.html]
Black Vampire Creature Token (2/4)
Black Vampire Creature Token (1/1)

Yup, that is great!

So - will it have to wait till the next general release to make it available elsewhere?  :-)
jase
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Thu 9 May 2013
at 16:38
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Another addition:  We can now set the alignment of a column with the divider row (the one with all the dashes).  If you don't want the bolded/emphasised header row then just start the table with the divider row (even though it's then no longer actually dividing anything).

| Header 1.1      | Header 1.2 | Header 1.3   | 1.4  |50%
|<50%-------------|--------25%>|-----^--------|10%---|
|Header 2.1       | Cell 2.2   |<Cell 2.3     |
|2.3 Cell 3.1                  | Cell 3.3     |< 3.4 |
                               |1.3 Cell\n4.3 |^ 4.4 |
                                              |
| 6.1             | 6.2                       | 6.4



Header 1.1Header 1.2Header 1.31.4
Header 2.1Cell 2.2Cell 2.3 
Cell 3.1Cell 3.33.4
Cell
4.3
4.4
 
6.16.26.4

Note that when you're doing column span, the alignment might not turn up how you expect it (depending upon whether you focus on where the column starts or where it finishes).  You may want/expect cell 3.1 to be right aligned, but it starts at column 1, so it gets the alignment from there.  You can override the alignment of individual cells (see cell 2.3 as an example).

Widths can also be set with the divider row.  The divider row can only have pipes (|), dashes and the alignment codes and width (which means even spaces aren't allowed).  It doesn't actually matter whre you put the codes in between the pipes, as illustrated in the example.

Unless their alignment is set within the cell or via the whole column, table data (td) are left aligned, table headers (th) are centre aligned.  Not sure if that's how it should be by default..?

I think I should stop fiddling with this now, it's getting to be a massive routine.
rogar308
 member, 340 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Thu 9 May 2013
at 17:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Well how about using the 'dice roller' to generate your tables? So you could have 2d4 be like 2 rows of 4 columns each. Maybe even 1d5+1d3 for 1 row of 5 columns followed by 1 row of 3 columns. I'd save this for next April 1st but I'm sure it will be long gone from my memory by then.
matthewfenn
 member, 313 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Fri 10 May 2013
at 06:46
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Confess I'm not sure what rogar is on about.

Another thought Jase,  how about something to set vertical alignment, especially in those cells that span rows?
Skald
 moderator, 419 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 10 May 2013
at 06:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
rogar's just joking.  I was about to suggest something similar with an end game of using Easy Grid as a random dungeon generator.  <evil grin>

On a more serious note, it'd also be nice to be able to shade individual cells (same colour as the header, let's not get carried away here) ... perhaps # as the tag ?
matthewfenn
 member, 315 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Fri 10 May 2013
at 08:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Well, easy enough to shade a specific square with an "=", but not so easy to always get the code to display exactly the table you expect...  I almost got the table I want, but it's added a little empty nub sticking out on the right hand side that I can't get rid of!

A1B1C1D1
ABC2D2
3
4
A3BC3
4
BCD5

Incidentally Jase, the [Code][/Code] tags don't seem to work when put around the table code here...
rogar308
 member, 342 posts
 Gaming is good!
 Got RPOL in my soul
Fri 10 May 2013
at 13:19
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Wow, table art! Kewl. That's a mighty nice lookin' battery you got there. Maybe set up another thread for table art competition?
jase
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Fri 10 May 2013
at 15:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Fixed the incorrect tallying of columns, shouldn't get extra cells on the end of rows now.

Code doesn't stop the easy tables or grids.
matthewfenn
 member, 316 posts
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Fri 10 May 2013
at 16:04
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Perfect!
Utsukushi
 member, 1218 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Fri 10 May 2013
at 16:29
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
matthewfenn:
Incidentally Jase, the [Code][/Code] tags don't seem to work when put around the table code here...

But the |'s have to be the beginning of the line, don't they?  So you can still show people cool new tricks with some random text first; like,

1 |A1|B1|
2 |A2|B2|
3 |A3|B3|
 Creates,
A1B1
A2B2
A3B3

(Though since RuBB collapses empty spaces, you can't just put a space in front of the |s.)
Zag24
 member, 585 posts
Fri 10 May 2013
at 17:45
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Checking on special types
 BoldItalicUnder-lineStrike-throughsupsubsmalllarge
Bold text text text text text text text text
Italic text text text text text text text text
Under-linetext text text text text text text text
Strike-throughtext text text text text text text text
sup text text text text text text text text
sub text text text text text text text text
small text text text text text text text text
large text text text text text text text text

Cool!!



BTW, I originally had this, and it took me a while to figure out why it did not make the line with my headings into a header line.  I guess the line with all dashes has to be the second one for that to work.

|=9 Checking on special types |
| Bold | Italic | Under-line | Strike-through | sup | sub | small | large |
|-----------------------|




What if I try to put some really awkward stuff in a table?
quote:
This is a quote.

Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
This is spoilered.
Impressive!
As always, jase, You da man!

This message was last edited by the user at 17:48, Fri 10 May 2013.

jmkool
 member, 263 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Sat 11 May 2013
at 02:58
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
The code tags also work properly within a table, as does coloring and font.  If you have too many or too few cells in a row, the cells will stick out/in.  Yeah, I tested this stuff too, as well as the grids.  I found that the code can be shorthanded quite nicely, as

* +--+
* |=X|O|X|
* |X|=X|O|
* |O|O|=X|
* +--+

is all you need to show

XOX
XXO
OOX

Zag24
 member, 586 posts
Sat 11 May 2013
at 13:03
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hi jase,

One quick suggestion:

As I mentioned above, you already have this:
| Bold | Italic | Under-line | Strike-through | sup | sub | small | large |
|-----------------------|

As a shortcut for this, but only if they are the first two lines:
|= Bold |= Italic |= Under-line |= Strike-through |= sup |= sub |= small |= large |

How about also this for the same thing?  (That is, it's a shortcut for the above, but it works anywhere.)
|== Bold | Italic | Under-line | Strike-through | sup | sub | small | large |

Also, I have meant to comment for a while, but it's even more evident here -- I totally love the way preview works, now.  It is incredibly helpful when you are mucking about with something like this.

Finally, for Jhael:  Get ready!  Once these new tables go live, expect a bunch of new character sheet templates using them.  I'm very much looking forward to character sheets that aren't lame, fixed-text-tabular, 1980's-looking pages.

This message was last edited by the user at 13:08, Sat 11 May 2013.

jase
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Sun 12 May 2013
at 03:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Zag24:
I guess the line with all dashes has to be the second one for that to work.

Yep.  Table's generally only have one header (<thead>) row.

"==" is in, but actually means "rest of the row", not "the entire row".

"#" should also now give you the cell shading, but without the bold.  It is still, however, a "th" element, so it'll be centre aligned whereas normal "td" elements are left aligned.  Not sure about it being the hash symbol though, that might be used a bit in cells as text?  If someone uses "|#2" in a cell (without spacing) then it'll pick up the #.

"|# 1 | 2 |== 3 | 4" (plus another line with a single pipe) comes out as:

# 1234

Skald
 moderator, 420 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 12 May 2013
at 06:13
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
"lame", Zag24 ?  AH, you mean you prefer style over substance ... got it ! <evil grin>

Nah, seriously, as a GM I find fixed text character sheets far easier to update and manage, and they have the advantage that they look the same here in RPoL as they do in the .txt file I store offline. Additionally, since I have such familiarity with the format and there's been little variation between various editions or systems with the fixed text character sheets, when I'm looking at my own characters' sheets as a player myself I can find things quickly and easily, without having to change mental gears to adapt.  After all, I game for the role-playing, not to crunch numbers.  But if others prefer to work with sheets that have much fancier formatting, then good luck to them. :>

My interest in easy grids is not for use in character sheets, but so I can produce very quick maps on the fly - shading cells to represent solid earth/stone/walls etc ie revealing the outlines of rooms and corridors.

Thanks for the # tag, jase (AND wholeheartedly echoing Zag24's lavish praise of preview so I could test it all out before I posted) ... but it doesn't seem to be working for me.  :<

From your notes, I thought it might be because I didn't put it on the first (header) line, in which case I was going to ask could it be extended to the whole table, not just the header, but when I tried the header, that didn't happen either.

# 123
4# 56
789

Keyed as:

+---+---+---+
|# 1 | 2 | 3 |
+---+---+---+
| 4 |# 5 | 6 |
+---+---+---+
| 7 | 8 | 9 |
+---+---+---+


Soo ... what arcane gesture did I miss ? ;>

Not hung up on the #, so please feel free to substitute anything you like - I picked # cos it looked like quick hand drawn shading ... and to be honest, there weren't many other free keys left !
matthewfenn
 member, 317 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Sun 12 May 2013
at 08:50
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
i guess he has only coded it for the tables, not the grids...

works in this table
1# 234

jase
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Sun 12 May 2013
at 13:46
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Yes, thought you were talking about tables.
Skald
 moderator, 421 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 12 May 2013
at 13:49
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Sorry ... yes, I was after the shading functionality for grids.  Pretty please ? :>
jase
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Sun 12 May 2013
at 14:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Skald (msg # 110):

Have you looked up at your previous post?  (c;
Skald
 moderator, 422 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 12 May 2013
at 14:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Aha !  Thank ye kindly. :>

Gives us quick maps:

          
          
          
          
          
          
          
          
          
          

And instant crossword (or similar word puzzles):

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
      8      
9            
    10    11 12 
13       14    
     15       
1617 1819   20 21 22
   23  24      
25 26     27    
28            
        29    
30            
      31      

Youre a cheenius, mathter.  You've created a monthter ! ;>
matthewfenn
 member, 318 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Sun 12 May 2013
at 16:34
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Deffo a thumbs up from me :-)

             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             

Greybeard
 member, 9 posts
Tue 14 May 2013
at 01:58
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm really excited about the prospect of being able to create maps using the shaded grids.

Let's put this into production and start using it! :)
jmkool
 member, 264 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Tue 14 May 2013
at 03:39
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I approve!  This function is looking more and more beautiful by the day!
Lunarius
 member, 257 posts
 eadem mutata resurgo
 pax ex tyranny
Tue 14 May 2013
at 03:49
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Greybeard (msg # 114):

So am I.  That is beyond exciting.
jase
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Tue 14 May 2013
at 06:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Still a little worried about the use of "#", but if those who'll be using it don't think so, then that makes life easier for me!
matthewfenn
 member, 320 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Tue 14 May 2013
at 08:11
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
What is your concern Jase?
PushBarToOpen
 member, 786 posts
Tue 14 May 2013
at 09:23
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Can you copypaste these new smart tables from other posts at all?as that is pretty much needed.

Since i can't seem to i will say thats a no.

So can we have a feature to be able to copy/paste others tables easily.
matthewfenn
 member, 321 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Tue 14 May 2013
at 11:31
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I don't think it's ever been possible to copy other people's tables - but simple enough to quote them and then edit the mail that's generated...

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the functionality pushed out to the rest of the site - I'm going to update my MTG spreadsheet to use the smart tables instead :-)
jase
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Tue 14 May 2013
at 12:42
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to matthewfenn (msg # 118):

me:
Not sure about it being the hash symbol though, that might be used a bit in cells as text?  If someone uses "|#2" in a cell (without spacing) then it'll pick up the #.

Not sure how much problem it'll cause, but best to think of these things before we set it in stone.
Skald
 moderator, 423 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 14 May 2013
at 13:34
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Yup, far better to sort problems out beforehand, quite agree. :>

There weren't many other symbols left that are easily accessible from the keyboard (I think the ~ is the only one that didn't seem to me to be in ordinary use) and # seemed more appropriate to indicate shading ... how about rather than single # use ## for shading ?

Or perhaps use single quote as override for any control character ?  eg '< gets you a < not left cell alignment (more code to process and remove the ' though, I'm afraid).
PushBarToOpen
 member, 788 posts
Tue 14 May 2013
at 14:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
other than the way that they are coded then what is trhe differance between

# xOO
 # xO
O # x
# x| O| O |# x| O O| |# x And
xOO
 xO
O x
= x| O| O |= x| O O| |= x
The only defferance i can see is bolding the characters which can be done with the Bold tags so why not remove the # and just use = without making it bold?
jase
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Tue 14 May 2013
at 15:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Skald (msg # 122):

Well ! or * springs to mind.  Not in favour of any kind of "escape" coding, the simple fact is if you want to make sure it's printed, then put a space before your text.  Much easier than messing around with single quotes.

If people don't think it's an issue that's fine, but I was concerned about people trying to number cells, for some reason, which might make them included to use the hash symbol.

But if it's going to cause issue and we can't think of a simple character to use, then I can just make it mandatory to have a space in-between the control codes and the text, rather than the current more lenient conditions.


In reply to PushBarToOpen (msg # 123):

Why remove the flexibility proposed?  I'd really be surprised if we couldn't come up with another character that allows for the non-bold highlighting that Skald suggested.

Note that I'm also still waiting for somebody to actually state if they think "#" will, or will not, be an issue!!  Proposed alternatives are all very well and good, and thanks for the input, but are they actually needed?  I don't even know that yet!  You are all going to be using it, not me, so I need that simple question answered first.
matthewfenn
 member, 322 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Tue 14 May 2013
at 16:13
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I think the # symbol is fine.  I agree that some people might try to use it to number a cell, however since if they try to use it without a space between the cell codes and the contents, then they'd fall foul of the number being interpreted as cell spanning instead...

I personally would enforce the need for the space before the cell contents... As you said, it is good practice.
Utsukushi
 member, 1220 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Tue 14 May 2013
at 16:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jase:
Note that I'm also still waiting for somebody to actually state if they think "#" will, or will not, be an issue!!  Proposed alternatives are all very well and good, and thanks for the input, but are they actually needed?  I don't even know that yet!  You are all going to be using it, not me, so I need that simple question answered first.

Unless the space is mandatory, I think an alternative would be better.  I can totally see why Skald picked it to start with - it's a good intuitive suggestion of shading - but it's also one of the only punctuation marks people often use at the front of their text.

So I'd either make the space mandatory, or use !.  ! suggests emphasis, so I think people will pick it up pretty easily.
ninthbit
 member, 63 posts
 Steampunk Advocate
 My profile has goodies
Tue 14 May 2013
at 16:54
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I've been losly following this topic, so excuse me if I'm way off here.  But I would go with the following:

# Use = here
Use ! here

The ! would seem to correlate with the bold better, the = is a fair representation of shading, and the # is then available for numbering.

Edit:  BTW, I can't wait for this feature.  >=)

This message was last edited by the user at 16:59, Tue 14 May 2013.

jase
 admin, 3107 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Wed 15 May 2013
at 00:04
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
matthewfenn:
if they try to use it without a space between the cell codes and the contents, then they'd fall foul of the number being interpreted as cell spanning instead...

Not quite - it'll highlight but not span.  It's lenient with the non-numeric formatting characters "<>^=", but not with the cellspan/rowspan/width digits.  The logic was it's "safe" to assume that "<Text" means left aligned text, but it's not safe to make any assumptions when the text contains a number.  Which lead to my concern with hash, as I was unsure it's safe to assume that something beginning with it was meaning highlight.  Post 91 has examples on what is or isn't allowed.

If all this leniency is going to cause confusion, and possibly catch unsuspecting members out, then perhaps it'd be best if space was mandatory.  I was trying to be nice, but maybe it's counterproductive.  (c;


In reply to ninthbit (msg # 127):

I can easily swap around the meaning of "=" and "!" (if that's what we choose).
jmkool
 member, 266 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Wed 15 May 2013
at 04:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
My vote is:

Mandatory space
# for shaded & bold
= for shaded (without centered text, if you can swing it)

But I'll work with whatever symbols you pick, I just want mandatory space, and no centering on the shaded.
Skald
 moderator, 424 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Wed 15 May 2013
at 13:19
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Personally I don't like mandatory spaces, but I suppose they're a necessary evil ... OR alternatively that's just my OCD showing (I DO like my pre-transformation grid to line up nicely too, if humanly possible).

I also like jmkool's idea of swapping the # and = tags around on the basis that the # is an = with additional vertical lines, so suggests additional functionality which is the bolding ... the only problem with that is that I think # is more likely to be used in a header than anywhere else - at least that's where I'd use it.

Good point jase about ! not being used very much before text ... given that, and the above, I'm voting for ninthbit's variation:

! for shaded and bold
= for shaded

on the basis that ! indicates attention, which is kinda the point of a header row.
matthewfenn
 member, 325 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Thu 30 May 2013
at 15:43
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I echo jmkool:

My vote is:

Mandatory space
# for shaded & bold
= for shaded (without centered text, if you can swing it)
Denalor
 member, 64 posts
Fri 21 Jun 2013
at 10:19
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jmkool:
We do, after all, have the detailed <table> mechanics if we need that.

I must admit that I never made much with tables but lately I have found that they are actually very useful for the "problem" I have at the moment.
So the last couple of days I've been busy trying to understand/learn all that html-table stuff.
I currently fail with something as easy as coloring of specific cells

<td bgcolor="#808080">xyz</td>

to shade a cell dark gray does not seem to work.

So I certainly anticipate the implementation of this huge thread.
When can this be expected ?
bigbadron
 moderator, 13761 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 21 Jun 2013
at 10:25
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Very little html works on RPoL - none of it in fact, since the site uses its own RUBB code, which just emulates some of the functions of html.  However, it doesn't emulate everything.  Cell shading would be one of the things that it doesn't.
matthewfenn
 member, 328 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Fri 21 Jun 2013
at 11:32
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
The only cell shading available in RUBB is by the code that Jase has put into place on this forum or by making the cell a header cell:

Shaded as a HeaderNot a Header
Shaded using = symbolShaded as a Header
Not shadedShaded using = symbol

Using code:
>  |! Shaded as a Header      | Not a Header             |
>  |= Shaded using = symbol   |! Shaded as a Header      |
>  | Not shaded               |= Shaded using = symbol   |


Can't wait for this functionality to spread to the rest of the site.  :-)

This message was lightly edited by admin, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 03:18, Sat 22 June 2013.

Denalor
 member, 65 posts
Fri 21 Jun 2013
at 16:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Okay, thanks for the explanation... never bothered what RuBB actually is, so I simply assumed it's just html... whatever. Am throwing expression that I actually know next to nothing about (blushes).
Makes the implementation even more anticipated :-)
ninthbit
 member, 132 posts
 Steampunk Advocate
 My profile has goodies
Fri 21 Jun 2013
at 17:43
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
There are a lot of different option available to players and GMs.  Some tags also have a few undocumented options as well.  If you ever wonder how somebody posted a certain format, just hit the "quote" link to look at the code.

/help/content.cgi?t=faqs&page=rubbcode
jase
 admin, 3149 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 22 Jun 2013
at 03:17
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
While I'd love to be able to allow any and all colours, the problem is that with different themes (especially with the ability for people to be able to create their own now) using a bg colour that works for you, might not work well for others.


I've changed the control codes for headers and for highlighting, using "#" had too much potential for clashing (even though it was the symbol that made the most sense).  "!" is now a header ("!!" for the entire/rest of the row), and "=" is now shading.
jmkool
 member, 310 posts
 aka'd as The Kool
Mon 24 Jun 2013
at 05:42
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
This works just fine!  This is probably the most anticipated feature I have yet seen.
Denalor
 member, 79 posts
Mon 2 Dec 2013
at 08:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
What I'm currently searching for is how to “end” a table.
Sorry, that needs some explanation.
I do a lot of stuff with MS Excel and I want to convert the tables to make them fit here on RPoL.
So essentially it's a couple of VBA routines, which convert each row in Excel into a line for RPoL adding in all those | and what not which we now have. (I had previously done all this with the old table commands… which was quite a fuzz).
Anyway.
So I have data in Excel all listed in one row after the other.
The first 8 rows have 10 columns each.
But at rows 11-15 I only need 8 columns and so on.
But those 10 columns are set for the whole table.
So I somehow need to reset the number of columns. Naturally I could insert a row in Excel and thus prevent all the fuzz (well, it does create some major upheaval in my Excel routines, but I suppose I could manage), but it would be a lot easier if there were some “even though it’s written in the next row, do reset the number of columns” command.

This probably shows what I mean:

General Data
NameSpiritCAT24Sub. Drive Rating15Sensor Rating2Screen Rating4
Class Armor QualityDB +15MSA125Sensor Bonus10Screen Bonus20
Cost6.567.333Armor Belt15MTs13EW Rating2Rad. Shield Rating4
Mass900Hits1.035Trans. Drive Rating5EW Bonus10Rad. Shield Bonus20
Tactics0Microfreq.Mk. 2Reactor Rating95Control Points6Cargo416,6
Predict2Tight BeamMk. 0Duration50Crew6Streamlinedyes
Evade5TBDMk. 0Andrium95Computer Mk.60Landing Gearyes
Weapon Systems100% 
FMMk.TypeMountFire ArcHUDMagazineCrew  
210BlastFlexibleFront QTR Right15    
210BlastFlexibleFront QTR Left15    
110MissileFlexibleAft1520   
FMMk.TypeCATDBEWHitsMTs  
110Standard211010112  
110Standard211010112  
Tractor Beam1x Mk.05        
AuxiliariesLife SupportMicrofreq Rig Mk. 2       

Skald
 moderator, 481 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 2 Dec 2013
at 13:53
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I think that might be too hard for Easy Tables ??  Best I can do is as follows, as when I try to span the headings across multiple columns, the table snaps back to the default grid evening things out:

|a|
|b|c|d|e|
|f|
|g|h|

a
bcde
f
gh

So I think you're going to have to use the pseudo-HTML table code - this seems to be what you're after ?

<table>
<tr><th colspan="4">Heading 1</th></th></tr>
<tr><td>Content Row 1 Column 1</td><td>Content Row 1 Column 2</td><td>Content Row 1 Column 3</td><td>Content Row 1 Column 4</td></tr>
<tr><th colspan="2">Heading 2</th></th></tr>
<tr><td>Content Row 2 Column 1</td><td>Content Row 2 Column 2</td></tr>
</table>

Heading 1
Content Row 1 Column 1Content Row 1 Column 2Content Row 1 Column 3Content Row 1 Column 4
Heading 2
Content Row 2 Column 1Content Row 2 Column 2

Denalor
 member, 80 posts
Mon 2 Dec 2013
at 14:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Ahhh, wasn't aware that the "regular" (non-easy) commands would do the trick.
Thanks
LonePaladin
 member, 395 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Wed 4 Dec 2013
at 05:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I ran across something like this in trying to set up a table-based character sheet. The way I got around it was to just add a blank line wherever I needed to reset the column count.

For instance, this:
Code for Nerds:
| Character Name: |> X | Player: |> x |100%
| XP/Level: |> 10,000 / 1 | Campaign: |> x |

| Race: |> X ||= Stat |! Temp |! Pot. ||! Base |! Race |! Spec |!|! BONUS |100%
| Profession: |> X || Agility |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|2 Training Packages: || Constitution |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|>2 || Memory |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|>2 || Reasoning |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|>2 || Self-Discipline |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|2 || Empathy |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
| Soul Departure: |> 6 rounds || Intuition |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
| Recovery: |> ×1.0 || Presence |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|!2 Body Development Progress || Quickness |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|^2 0 0 0 0 0 || Strength |^ 20 |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
|!2 MP Development Progress ||
|^2 0 0 0 0 0 || Appearance |^ |^ 0 ||^ +0 |^ |^ ||=^ +0 |
Gives this:
Character Name:XPlayer:x
XP/Level:10,000 / 1Campaign:x

Race:X StatTempPot. BaseRaceSpec BONUS
Profession:X Agility200 +0   +0
Training Packages: Constitution200 +0   +0
  Memory200 +0   +0
  Reasoning200 +0   +0
  Self-Discipline200 +0   +0
  Empathy200 +0   +0
Soul Departure:6 rounds Intuition200 +0   +0
Recovery:×1.0 Presence200 +0   +0
Body Development Progress Quickness200 +0   +0
0 0 0 0 0 Strength200 +0   +0
MP Development Progress          
0 0 0 0 0 Appearance 0 +0   +0

(I had to get rid of all the extra spaces to get the post within the allowed character limit. The full table is a LOT bigger than this.)
steelsmiter
 member, 552 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Thu 5 Dec 2013
at 16:10
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
came across a minor glitch
WeaponDamageReachParryCostWtSTLCNotes
Dwarven Great Axe1d+5 cut102250lbs12‡4[1]

on my character sheet it shows no number for the weight of the weapon unless I add a hash, but then it shows the hash:

WeaponDamageReachParryCostWtSTLCNotes
Dwarven Great Axe1d+5 cut102250#8 lbs12‡4[1]

Any way I can fix that?
Doccus
 member, 28 posts
 Happily GMing since 1979.
Thu 5 Dec 2013
at 17:36
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Put a space between the vertical bar and the 8.  Otherwise, it looks to the parser like it's a column span directive.
steelsmiter
 member, 553 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Thu 5 Dec 2013
at 18:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Doccus (msg # 144):

oh hey thanks. I didn't notice that.
matthewfenn
 member, 337 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Sat 7 Dec 2013
at 09:49
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I kept forgetting the rules for these easy tables... so I thought I'd check the help files to see if they had been summarised - and they have!   Thank you Jase!

Here is the link for those who are interested:

/help/?t=help&page=easytable
spaceace
 member, 198 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 13:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
is there a code to force a new line in table cell?


| two<hr>lines | single |
| single       | single |


two
lines
single
singlesingle

<hr> works, but I'd like to do away with the line between them

 doesn't do anything
Denalor
 member, 85 posts
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 13:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
\n should do the trick


| two \n lines | single |
| single       | single |


two
lines
single
singlesingle


Yes it does :-)
spaceace
 member, 199 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 13:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
thank you, that's exactly what I needed ;>
LonePaladin
 member, 404 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Tue 11 Feb 2014
at 20:04
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Could someone edit the Easy Tables help page to include these extra tricks?
LonePaladin
 member, 406 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Wed 19 Feb 2014
at 06:02
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Something else I'm looking for:

When making a table the old-fashioned (i.e., clunky) way, it's possible to indent a line of text simply by inserting a few spaces at the start. For instance,

<table>
   <tr><td>Row 1</td></tr>
   <tr><td>   Row 2</td></tr>
</table>


gives

Row 1
   Row 2


but if you try the same thing with an Easy Table,

|Row 1   |
|   Row 2|


gives

Row 1
Row 2

Is there a way to force those leading spaces to work? A table I made in the old way needs updating, and I'd rather make it as an Easy Table than have to deal with all those tags again.
LoreGuard
 member, 500 posts
Wed 19 Feb 2014
at 08:13
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
You could potentially use the following, which appears to work.

  AB
   CD
    EF


  AB
   CD
    EF


| &nbsp; A | B |
| &nbsp;&nbsp; C | D |
| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E | F |


| &nbsp; A | B |
| &nbsp;  C | D |
| &nbsp;   E | F |
archus
 member, 28 posts
Wed 5 Mar 2014
at 18:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
How can you make a table blend in with a proportional font character sheet?  The tables really stand out as larger text.  I tried wrapping them with pre but no luck.
steelsmiter
 member, 740 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Wed 5 Mar 2014
at 18:26
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
archus:
How can you make a table blend in with a proportional font character sheet?

I'm not sure what you mean by that but I think you want /tt

EDIT: no I don't think that works, I previewed mine and it spit the code back out.

This message was last edited by the user at 18:28, Wed 05 Mar 2014.

archus
 member, 29 posts
Wed 5 Mar 2014
at 18:43
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 154):

It looks like this (the table text is larger and bolder than the rest, different font clearly)
http://arcanearcade.com/Downloads/RPOL/Zach/table.png

The character sheet is just raw text with a few bolds and the table.

Occupation: Student
Citizenship: American
Place of Birth: Detroit

PL 8         HP: 1

<u><b>Abilities:</b></u>
| 2 | Str |
| 4 | Sta |
| 2 | Agl |
| 2 | Dex |
| 2 | Fgt |
| 2 | Int |
| 2 | Awe |
| 2 | Pre |

This message was last edited by the user at 18:49, Wed 05 Mar 2014.

Skald
 moderator, 510 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 6 Mar 2014
at 05:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Easy tables shouldn't change the default font size ...

... tested and can confirm it looks fine to me - same proportional font in and out of the table.

Could you have any browser setting that's substituting table fonts ?  Can you try to view the output using a different browser and see if your mileage varies ? :>
archus
 member, 30 posts
Thu 6 Mar 2014
at 20:41
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Skald (msg # 156):

I've tried it on Chrome, Firefox, and Safari (in osx) and they all have the table text looking different than the rest (it is a more subtle difference in Firefox).  This is in a character sheet that I believe the GMs have marked as preformatted text.  I've looked at the source for the produced page and there is indeed a < pre > at the beginning of the character.

I suspect that one of these two styles message_table or smart_table has set the font to something and that overrides the preformatted text the table is nested in.  So likely there is nothing I can do unless I wrap all the text in < pre > tags, which would make using the simple tables fairly pointless.

I wonder if I could get the GMs to remove the preformatted flag from character sheets...
steelsmiter
 member, 750 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Thu 6 Mar 2014
at 20:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to archus (msg # 157):

I've noticed that the tables look different on my Tablet when I use Mozilla vs. when I use Chrome. I don't usually use chrome because the italics thing doesn't seem to want to display properly... maybe because it was embedded within other tags? So yeah, I just thought it might be worthy of mention that it looks normal in Chrome and bigger in Mozilla for me.
Skald
 moderator, 511 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 7 Mar 2014
at 14:19
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Archus ... I suspect you're right about the <pre> ... can you flick the mods an rmail with the name of the game and I'll have a look at the sheet directly and try to duplicate the problem. :>
steelsmiter
 member, 757 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Sun 9 Mar 2014
at 03:16
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I want HT Aff to appear on a second line, and it's not working. What am I doing wrong?

WeaponDamageAccRangeWtRoFShotsSTBulkRclCostLCNotes
Stun Gunburn, 1 point /n HT Aff350/10033124-5150004[2][3]

LonePaladin
 member, 418 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sun 9 Mar 2014
at 04:45
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
steelsmiter:
I want HT Aff to appear on a second line, and it's not working. What am I doing wrong?

Use \n.

WeaponDamageAccRangeWtRoFShotsSTBulkRclCostLCNotes
Stun Gunburn, 1 point
HT Aff
350/10033124-5150004[2][3]

steelsmiter
 member, 758 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Sun 9 Mar 2014
at 05:43
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
LonePaladin:
Use \n.

some reason I got my slash the wrong direction. Thanks.

So what about making all my stuff go to the top line instead of being vertically centered?

This message was last edited by the user at 05:47, Sun 09 Mar 2014.

LonePaladin
 member, 419 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sun 9 Mar 2014
at 06:35
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Try adding a \n at the end.
steelsmiter
 member, 759 posts
 GURPS, FFd6, Pathfinder
 NO FREEFORM!
Sun 9 Mar 2014
at 06:50
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to LonePaladin (msg # 163):

aah I'll check that.
matthewfenn
 member, 340 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Thu 13 Mar 2014
at 12:25
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I was trying to remember if there was a code for vertical justification, so I searched for the help file on Easy Tables & Grids -

/help/?t=help&page=easytable

What I realised when searching for the link was that there doesn't appear to be (unless I'm blind!) any sort of link to it from the Help home page, nor even under the RuBB Code Tips & Tricks subpage.  The only way to find it appears to be via a search...

Jase, is it possible to get the help files amended to show the link to the Easy Tables from the RuBB Code Tips and Tricks page?
spaceace
 member, 201 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Sat 29 Mar 2014
at 13:22
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'd like to thank jase and the rest of the crew for the work they put in to making tables easier, my character sheet looks pretty sweet now, lol

EDIT: My apologies, I was just trying to show how the table could be used to make a nicely organized character sheet

This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was in need of a minor tweak, at 09:31, Thu 10 Apr 2014.

Chernobyl
 member, 111 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Thu 10 Apr 2014
at 09:15
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I was really pleased to have that character sheet posted. I stole it and I'm glad I did when I had the chance!
matthewfenn
 member, 341 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Thu 10 Apr 2014
at 20:32
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Now I feel like I missed out on something :-(
spaceace
 member, 202 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Thu 10 Apr 2014
at 22:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
If you're interested, you can send me an rMail, I can't post it here though

edit: I should probably state it's designed for pathfinder, but it should work for any d20 with a little modification

This message was last edited by the user at 22:18, Thu 10 Apr 2014.

jase
 admin, 3292 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 02:32
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to spaceace (msg # 169):

Post it to Jhael in a PM in the "Heaven" forum, she can then make it available as a resource to all.
spaceace
 member, 203 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 03:58
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
that's a good idea, thanks, I'll try to get up a blank version this weekend
jase
 admin, 3293 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 04:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Also... you could make a Wiki page for character sheet templates.  (c;
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2070 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 08:46
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hunh, LonePaladin, try wrapping everything in tt tags:
|Row 1   |
|   Row 2|


Also, look at the weird thing that happens if you attempt to put the contents of a table call in pre tags:
Row 1
Row 2 |
jase
 admin, 3295 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 08:51
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Genghis the Hutt:
Also, look at the weird thing that happens if you attempt to put the contents of a table call in pre tags:

Well.. don't!  Can't be combined.
LonePaladin
 member, 427 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 09:10
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
"Doc, it hurts when I do this."
"Then don't do that."

Putting a dot in front of a table's rows to suppress it seems to be the easiest solution.
spaceace
 member, 204 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Fri 11 Apr 2014
at 16:16
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jase:
Also... you could make a Wiki page for character sheet templates.  (c;


hmm, the wiki seems a little tricky

http://wiki.rpol.net/?id=37663/sheet

This message was last edited by the user at 17:40, Fri 11 Apr 2014.

Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2074 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 09:31
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Wiki syntax tends to use repeated "special characters" to signify something special.  For instance, in regular text, there's no reason to have two or three apostrophes next to each other, or two square brackets.  Three underscores are used to mark off some so-called "magic words", such as ___TOC___ which means "put the table of contents for the page right here instead of wherever else it would normally go".
Chernobyl
 member, 113 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 09:34
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
What is the easiest way to put a block of text into a cell using this method?
jase
 admin, 3297 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 11:00
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
/help/?t=help&page=easytable!
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2075 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 11:10
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Will tables (either kind) shrink down a picture that's too large to fit in whatever "standard size" is for the table on a page or will pictures force tables to be bigger and possibly add scroll bars to the page?
Chernobyl
 member, 114 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 11:17
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
what i want to do isnt in the easy tables help section. What i want to do is put a huge amount of text in one cell and have it do something like a word wrap instead of just creating a really really wide cell that means you need to scroll over the whole page

The weird thing is that it works on these pages but character sheets seem to have unlimited width and it all just ends up being on a single line.
bigbadron
 moderator, 14280 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 11:44
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Character sheets can be set by the GM so that you need to insert all line feeds manually.  It sounds like that's what's happening here.
LonePaladin
 member, 428 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sat 12 Apr 2014
at 19:01
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Have you tried sticking a percentage at the end, to tell it how wide to make the table?
jase
 admin, 3300 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 13 Apr 2014
at 10:35
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to spaceace (msg # 176):

Should work better with the new update.
Chernobyl
 member, 116 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Wed 16 Apr 2014
at 00:00
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Lonepaladin: That doesn't do anything I'm afraid.

Jase: Is there a way to make a picture shrink down in a cell? I was trying to make one cell of my character sheet a portrait, but the file I'm linking to from another site is massive compared to what I want.
spaceace
 member, 209 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Wed 16 Apr 2014
at 01:15
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to Chernobyl (msg # 185):

I've had that problem before, unable to find another workaround, I've been downloading oversized pictures and resizing them in MS paint, then uploading them to my facebook to link to
LonePaladin
 member, 430 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Wed 16 Apr 2014
at 04:01
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Try uploading your pictures to imgur, it has an edit feature that will let you resize a picture to the size you want.
Chernobyl
 member, 117 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Wed 16 Apr 2014
at 04:04
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I understand I can do that, I just hoped for jase to say 'hey, that can easily be done' :)
LonePaladin
 member, 431 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Wed 16 Apr 2014
at 04:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
RPoL doesn't allow you to shrink an image down by scaling it in the <img> tag, because that doesn't actually change the image. If you had a picture that was, say 10MB, and posted it with scaling bringing it down to 20 pixels square, you'd have a 20×20px image that required 10MB of downloading to view.

It's a far better practice to shrink the image down to the size you want, then post that.
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 2099 posts
 Just an average guy :)
Fri 18 Apr 2014
at 18:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I resize pictures in Windows Paint -- Ctrl+W opens the resize window.  Then I upload to photobucket.
matthewfenn
 member, 342 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Sat 19 Apr 2014
at 12:03
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
jase:
Post it to Jhael in a PM in the "Heaven" forum, she can then make it available as a resource to all.

Incidentally, I notice the Heaven forum is showing as "Inactive"...
bigbadron
 moderator, 14305 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 19 Apr 2014
at 12:05
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
That would be because nobody has sent anything in to be added to it for a long time.  :)
spaceace
 member, 210 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Sat 19 Apr 2014
at 15:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm working on reformatting so it looks decent as a blank sheet, lol

if it's not considered too far off topic, is there anyway to force the wiki to a wider display? it's cutting off some of the side

http://wiki.rpol.net/?edit=37663/sheet

This message was last edited by the user at 16:06, Sat 19 Apr 2014.

jase
 admin, 3311 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 20 Apr 2014
at 02:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to spaceace (msg # 193):

The wiki is as wide as your browser.
spaceace
 member, 220 posts
Tue 23 Sep 2014
at 13:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 14:49, Tue 23 Sept 2014.

spaceace
 member, 221 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Tue 23 Sep 2014
at 14:58
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
my deepest and sincerest apologies to the moderators

mr jase, there is an issue with tables and private lines, I'm sorry, but I cannot provide you an example
cruinne
 moderator, 6547 posts
 what DO you do with
 a drunken sailor?
Tue 23 Sep 2014
at 15:21
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to spaceace (msg # 196):

As the moderator suggested above: if you need to link to a specific game for your example (rather than demonstrate the problem here), then please rMail jase and the mods directly about it.

That said: Keep in mind that private lines aren't meant to contain a lot of complex information, such as whole tables.  Probably best to send something like that in a PM instead, or refer the player to a rules thread where the chart can be found.  Alternately, use a pre-formatted or teletype table rather than a table-formatted table.

This message was last edited by the user at 15:24, Tue 23 Sept 2014.

spaceace
 member, 222 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Tue 23 Sep 2014
at 15:35
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
yeah it's an easy work  around (just don't put tables in a private line), I merely wanted to make jase aware of the issue in case it caused any problems if someone inadvertently did just that

sorry for any inconvenience
jase
 admin, 3403 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 25 Sep 2014
at 00:57
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Private messages, secret messages etc start with an open square bracket ([) and stop with a close square bracket (]).

The first time you use a close square bracket it will finish the private line, and your table has five of them.
spaceace
 member, 223 posts
 Do or do not
 there is no try
Thu 25 Sep 2014
at 01:23
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
oddly though,it works correctly for those that can see the private line, lol

sorry to bother you with such nonsense, I know you're a busy person,and thinks for all the hard work you put in
jase
 admin, 3404 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 25 Sep 2014
at 14:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to spaceace (msg # 200):

It looks correct for those who can see it, but it's not actually working correctly.  The private line is still closing on the first ], which is why other users can see the rest of it.
matthewfenn
 member, 358 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Tue 18 Nov 2014
at 21:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I have a puzzle - I have a easy table, within which is a quote, within which is a list...

|^! <hr><large>SAMPLE TABLE</large><hr>|95%
|<! <quote My Quote> Bit of text before the list [list][*]First item in the list...
[*] Second item in the list.  I don't want it to be really long so I have a carriage return here:
and then continue the second item on a second line.
[*] Last item in the list [/list]</quote>


This produces:


SAMPLE TABLE
My Quote:
Bit of text before the list
  • First item in the list...
  • Second item in the list.  I don't want it to be really long so I have a carriage return here:
and then continue the second item on a second line.
  • Last item in the list


  • As you can see, the carriage return in the list seems to break the quote, but not the list nor the table...

    EDIT: This is actually supposed to be on a character sheet where I have Variable Width, Word Wrap ON.   If I rely on the word-wrap, then on the long lines, it expands out to the full width of the screen, but I don't want that.  I want it to be relatively compact.

    If I try it with Word Wrap OFF, then it still fails to display as I expect it to.

    This message was last edited by the user at 21:30, Tue 18 Nov 2014.

    cruinne
     moderator, 6584 posts
     what DO you do with
     a drunken sailor?
    Wed 19 Nov 2014
    at 03:00
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to matthewfenn (msg # 202):

    Quotes and tables and lists weren't really meant to go together.  Perhaps you can come up with some other formatting to get the effect you want, without using the special quote tag?

    I think the issue really comes down to: RPoL was meant to be pretty basically text based, and over time a few things got added -- lists, tables, quotes -- but they were never meant to be piled on one another but instead each used for their own purpose.
    matthewfenn
     member, 360 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Wed 19 Nov 2014
    at 22:15
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Managed to resolve my problem by going back to the original <table> tags...

    <table width="95%"><tr><th><hr><large>SAMPLE TABLE</large><hr></th></tr>
    <tr><th><quote My Quote> Bit of text before the list [list][*]First item in the list...
    [*] Second item in the list.  I don't want it to be really long so I have a carriage return here:
    and then continue the second item on a second line.
    [*] Last item in the list [/list]</quote></th></tr></table>



    SAMPLE TABLE
    My Quote:
    Bit of text before the list
    • First item in the list...
    • Second item in the list.  I don't want it to be really long so I have a carriage return here:
      and then continue the second item on a second line.
    • Last item in the list

    matthewfenn
     member, 361 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Wed 11 Feb 2015
    at 15:06
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Anyone know how to make a table centred, but the contents of the table left aligned?
    Tileira
     member, 480 posts
    Wed 11 Feb 2015
    at 15:24
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Use <table align="center"> as the opening tag for the table.
    <th> cells are always centered.

    Sample
    text
    text
    longer text

    matthewfenn
     member, 362 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Wed 11 Feb 2015
    at 23:21
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    I think I figured out why my table wasn't working as expected... I'd been using <th> tags for the cells rather than <td>

    Sometimes it's hard to see the wood from the trees when you're too close to it!
    matthewfenn
     member, 375 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Mon 7 Sep 2015
    at 12:46
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Is it possible to force the column widths of a table to be the same size, regardless of what they have in them?

    For example, Ideally, I'd like the columns on the left hand side to be the same size as the ones with characters in on the right, even though there is nothing in those cells.



            
            
            
        @  E
          RD
         CmY
        @  B
           M
            
            


    Skald
     moderator, 655 posts
     Whatever it is,
     I'm against it
    Mon 7 Sep 2015
    at 13:17
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    You can do it with Grids  :>

            
            
            
        @  E
          RD
         CmY
        @  B
           M
            
            

    DarkLightHitomi
     member, 965 posts
    Tue 8 Sep 2015
    at 00:04
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Now if only you could make hex grids as easily, or even just a square grid but with each row (or column) offset by half from those on either side....


    Yep that would be cool. :)
    matthewfenn
     member, 376 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Tue 8 Sep 2015
    at 08:32
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to Skald (msg # 209):

    Ah yes, I'd forgotten about grids...  They are rather large though...

    +---+---+---+
    |   |   |   |
    +---+---+---+
    |   |=Me|   |
    +---+---+---+
    |   |   |   |
    +---+---+---+
    =
       
     Me 
       
    Would it be possible to make smaller grids?
    eg:
       
     i 
       

    Skald
     moderator, 656 posts
     Whatever it is,
     I'm against it
    Tue 8 Sep 2015
    at 12:48
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    ... change your zoom setting on your Browser ? <grrrrins>

    Seriously, I don't think there is - that's the minimum space to draw the vertical:

    +
    |
    +

    Hex ... there's a grid in the ASCII maps thread in Heaven which might serve ?

    link to a message in another game
    jase
     admin, 3495 posts
     Cogito, ergo procuro.
     Carpe stultus!
    Tue 8 Sep 2015
    at 15:07
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    You can size grids, check the help in how to do it.
    matthewfenn
     member, 377 posts
     www.nj-pbem.com
     Northern Journey PBeM DM
    Tue 8 Sep 2015
    at 17:02
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Ah...  Just found it in the help...  (/help/?t=faqs)  Thanks Jase!
    Small (size 1) grid:
    A 
     B


    Default (size 2) grid:

    A 
     B

    Size 3
    A 
     B
    Size 4
    A 
     B
    Largest (size 5) grid:
    A 
     B

    Skald
     moderator, 657 posts
     Whatever it is,
     I'm against it
    Wed 9 Sep 2015
    at 12:48
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    There you go ... I learned sumfin' new as well.   Clever syntax to get that size 1 grid in !  :>
    Escribblings
     member, 7 posts
    Thu 18 Jan 2018
    at 01:01
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    jase:
    Another addition:  We can now set the alignment of a column with the divider row (the one with all the dashes).  If you don't want the bolded/emphasised header row then just start the table with the divider row (even though it's then no longer actually dividing anything).

    | Header 1.1      | Header 1.2 | Header 1.3   | 1.4  |50%
    |<50%-------------|--------25%>|-----^--------|10%---|
    |Header 2.1       | Cell 2.2   |<Cell 2.3     |
    |2.3 Cell 3.1                  | Cell 3.3     |< 3.4 |
                                   |1.3 Cell\n4.3 |^ 4.4 |
                                                  |
    | 6.1             | 6.2                       | 6.4



    Header 1.1Header 1.2Header 1.31.4
    Header 2.1Cell 2.2Cell 2.3 
    Cell 3.1Cell 3.33.4
    Cell
    4.3
    4.4
     
    6.16.26.4

    Note that when you're doing column span, the alignment might not turn up how you expect it (depending upon whether you focus on where the column starts or where it finishes).  You may want/expect cell 3.1 to be right aligned, but it starts at column 1, so it gets the alignment from there.  You can override the alignment of individual cells (see cell 2.3 as an example).

    Widths can also be set with the divider row.  The divider row can only have pipes (|), dashes and the alignment codes and width (which means even spaces aren't allowed).  It doesn't actually matter whre you put the codes in between the pipes, as illustrated in the example.

    Unless their alignment is set within the cell or via the whole column, table data (td) are left aligned, table headers (th) are centre aligned.  Not sure if that's how it should be by default..?

    I think I should stop fiddling with this now, it's getting to be a massive routine.



    Sorry to raise an old thread, but I have 2 issues, firstly relating to the above.

    I have tried to determine the %age widths by putting the figures in the divider row as shown above, but when I do, it doesn't display properly.

    instead of


    .|!4 Basic Information                                                                   |100%
    .|20%= Character Name  |30% Balik Giantborne |20%= Height    |30% 7’10”                  |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond       |= Weight       | 295 lbs                   |
    .|= Character Race     | Goliath             |= Eyes         | Green                     |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Good        |= Hair         | Bald                      |
    .|= Deity              | Mordain             |= Size         | Medium                    |

    .|!4 Class, Level & Experience                                                           |100%
    .|20%= Primary Class   |30% Barbarian        |20%= Level     |30% 5                      |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -                   |= Level        | -                         |
    .|= Experience Points  | 12,150              |= Total Level  | 5                         |
    .|= Next Level At      | 14,000              |= Proficiency  | +3                        |
    .|= Max Health         | 60                  |= Initiative   | +3                        |
    .|= Current Health     | 40                  |= Armour Class | 17                        |
    .|= Passive Perception | 14                  |= Speed        | 40' (30' in Heavy Armour) |


    giving


    Basic Information
    Character NameBalik GiantborneHeight7’10”
    Player NameJonathan BondWeight295 lbs
    Character RaceGoliathEyesGreen
    AlignmentChaotic GoodHairBald
    DeityMordainSizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel5
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points12,150Total Level5
    Next Level At14,000Proficiency+3
    Max Health60Initiative+3
    Current Health40Armour Class17
    Passive Perception14Speed40' (30' in Heavy Armour)


    I get:


    .|4 Basic Information                                                                   |100%
    .|20%------------------|30%------------------|20%------------|30%------------------------|
    .|= Character Name     | Balik Giantborne    |= Height       | 7’10”                     |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond       |= Weight       | 295 lbs                   |
    .|= Character Race     | Goliath             |= Eyes         | Green                     |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Good        |= Hair         | Bald                      |
    .|= Deity              | Mordain             |= Size         | Medium                    |

    .|4 Class, Level & Experience                                                           |100%
    .|20%------------------|30%------------------|20%------------|30%------------------------|
    .|= Primary Class      | Barbarian           |= Level        | 5                         |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -                   |= Level        | -                         |
    .|= Experience Points  | 12,150              |= Total Level  | 5                         |
    .|= Next Level At      | 14,000              |= Proficiency  | +3                        |
    .|= Max Health         | 60                  |= Initiative   | +3                        |
    .|= Current Health     | 40                  |= Armour Class | 17                        |
    .|= Passive Perception | 14                  |= Speed        | 40' (30' in Heavy Armour) |


    giving


    Basic Information
    Character NameBalik GiantborneHeight7’10”
    Player NameJonathan BondWeight295 lbs
    Character RaceGoliathEyesGreen
    AlignmentChaotic GoodHairBald
    DeityMordainSizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel5
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points12,150Total Level5
    Next Level At14,000Proficiency+3
    Max Health60Initiative+3
    Current Health40Armour Class17
    Passive Perception14Speed40' (30' in Heavy Armour)


    Secondly, is there anyway to set a fixed rather than percentage width for the table.  I don't mind %age widths for the columns, but I'm trying to prevent a 100% width table from continously expanding without having to resort to newline characters to break up larger paragraphs.

    With normal tables I do

    <table width="600">, but that doesn't work with your quick tables and neither can I mix the 2 syntaxes.
    DarkLightHitomi
     member, 1262 posts
    Fri 19 Jan 2018
    at 02:04
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    To expand on that, you might consider allowing a table width to be set by percentage of whatever width the post as a whole has, so you might set a table to be half the width of the post, or 150% (in which case it acts like an oversized picture and you neec to scroll, or the page resizes to match width. Whichever.)

    That way you could have a couple tables that fit side by side under a wide header table, or similar scenerios.

    Not sure how well that'd work though.
    Escribblings
     member, 8 posts
    Fri 19 Jan 2018
    at 20:11
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    DarkLightHitomi:
    To expand on that, you might consider allowing a table width to be set by percentage of whatever width the post as a whole has, so you might set a table to be half the width of the post, or 150% (in which case it acts like an oversized picture and you neec to scroll, or the page resizes to match width. Whichever.)

    That way you could have a couple tables that fit side by side under a wide header table, or similar scenerios.

    Not sure how well that'd work though.

    You mean like

    .|! This |25%
    .||

    This

    .|! This |50%
    .||

    This

    .|! This |75%
    .||

    This

    .|! Or This |100%
    .||

    Or This


    The only way to do tables side by side would be to make them into 1 table as far as I can tell, as this site doesn't support nested tables either.

    The problem with specifying the width of the entire table as a percentage of the post is it is dependent on the viewer's browser size.

    I want to specify a fixed width not only to prevent it continually expanding but also continually contracting too.
    LonePaladin
     member, 685 posts
     Creator of HeroForge
    Fri 19 Jan 2018
    at 20:34
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Escribblings:
    The problem with specifying the width of the entire table as a percentage of the post is it is dependent on the viewer's browser size.

    I want to specify a fixed width not only to prevent it continually expanding but also continually contracting too.

    What would happen if the table's established width exceeds the browser's? Say, if you set a table to be 1300px wide, but someone else sets their browser to only be 800px?
    Escribblings
     member, 9 posts
    Fri 19 Jan 2018
    at 22:15
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to LonePaladin (msg # 219):

    You would have to scroll.

    You can't do this with smart tables


    <table width="3000">
      <tr>
        <th>
          This is 3000px wide
        </th>
      </tr>
    </table>

    This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was moot, at 23:22, Fri 19 Jan 2018.

    Escribblings
     member, 10 posts
    Fri 19 Jan 2018
    at 23:27
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Apologies
    DarkLightHitomi
     member, 1263 posts
    Sun 21 Jan 2018
    at 00:02
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.

    Escribblings:
    The problem with specifying the width of the entire table as a percentage of the post is it is dependent on the viewer's browser size.

    I want to specify a fixed width not only to prevent it continually expanding but also continually contracting too.


    Yea, and that is good. I was simply expanding on the idea (it would likely be easier to do both at once than separate, if there was a need anyway.).

    LonePaladin:
    What would happen if the table's established width exceeds the browser's? Say, if you set a table to be 1300px wide, but someone else sets their browser to only be 800px?



    How can you set how wide the browser is set for? I haven't seen any way to do so.

    Besides, only the new mobile site changes size near as I can tell.
    LonePaladin
     member, 687 posts
     Creator of HeroForge
    Sun 21 Jan 2018
    at 04:07
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    DarkLightHitomi:
    How can you set how wide the browser is set for? I haven't seen any way to do so.

    Resize the window. Or have your display set to that resolution.

    I'm just wanting to know what would be the expected result if a fixed-width Easy Table exceeded the browser's available space. Would it be shrunk to fit, or would the window gain a horizontal scroll bar?
    Escribblings
     member, 11 posts
    Sun 21 Jan 2018
    at 11:12
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    LonePaladin:
    DarkLightHitomi:
    How can you set how wide the browser is set for? I haven't seen any way to do so.

    Resize the window. Or have your display set to that resolution.

    I'm just wanting to know what would be the expected result if a fixed-width Easy Table exceeded the browser's available space. Would it be shrunk to fit, or would the window gain a horizontal scroll bar?


    Preview the code of the "working example" I posted above.

    It broke the forum by making everyone scroll and I got modded for it.

    But that does exactly what happens.  It's an extreme example, I would never create a table that wide, in fact I want to specify a table that is only 600px wide, which would only force horizontal scroll in the smallest of situations.  But the point it, I want to be able to create a fixed width table.

    I can do this with normal tables, but not with easy tables.

    If it's a case of code implementation, then I have a suggestion...

    Currently a tables width is specified by the first row ending with |xxx%, where xxx is a value between 1 and 100.

    To implement fixed widths, can I suggest that the first row end in |"xxx", where the xxx in this case refer to the size in pixels.

    This could also be included in the column widths as well, but personally I am happy with percentage column widths, they're unlikely to change of the whole table has a fixed width.

    To give you an idea, this is what I can achieve, and want to achieve, with the html style table code:

    <small>
    <table width="600">
      <tr>
        <th colspan="4">Basic Information</th>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td width=25%><b>Character Name</b></td>
        <td width=25%>Buran Bo</td>
        <td width=25%><b>Height</b></td>
        <td width=25%>6'5"</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Player Name</b></td>
        <td>Jonathan Bond</td>
        <td><b>Weight</b></td>
        <td>205 lbs</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Character Race</b></td>
        <td>Genasi (Air)</td>
        <td><b>Eyes</b></td>
        <td>Dark</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Alignment</b></td>
        <td>Chaotic Neutral</td>
        <td><b>Hair</b></td>
        <td>White</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Deity</b></td>
        <td></td>
        <td><b>Size</b></td>
        <td>Medium</td>
      </tr>
    </table>
    <table width=600>
      <tr>
        <th colspan="4">Class, Level & Experience</th>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td width=25%><b>Primary Class</b></td>
        <td width=25%>Barbarian</td>
        <td width=25%><b>Level</b></td>
        <td width=25%>4</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Multiclass 1</b></td>
        <td>-</td>
        <td><b>Level</b></td>
        <td>-</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Experience Points</b></td>
        <td>4,100</td>
        <td><b>Total Level</b></td>
        <td>4</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Next Level At</b></td>
        <td>6,500</td>
        <td><b>Proficiency</b></td>
        <td>+2</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Max Health</b></td>
        <td>38</td>
        <td><b>Initiative</b></td>
        <td>+1</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Current Health</b></td>
        <td>31</td>
        <td><b>Armour Class</b></td>
        <td>13</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td><b>Passive Perception</b></td>
        <td>12</td>
        <td><b>Speed</b></td>
        <td>30'</td>
      </tr>
    </table>
    </small>


    Basic Information
    Character NameBuran BoHeight6'5"
    Player NameJonathan BondWeight205 lbs
    Character RaceGenasi (Air)EyesDark
    AlignmentChaotic NeutralHairWhite
    DeitySizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel4
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points4,100Total Level4
    Next Level At6,500Proficiency+2
    Max Health38Initiative+1
    Current Health31Armour Class13
    Passive Perception12Speed30'



    And this is what I get using easy tables:


    <small>
    .|4! Basic Information                                             |100%
    .|25%= Character Name. |25% Buran Bo     |25%= Height    |25% 6'5" |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond   |= Weight       |205 lbs  |
    .|= Character Race     | Genasi (Air)    |= Eyes         | Dark    |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Neutral |= Hair         | White   |
    .|= Deity              |                 |= Size         | Medium  |

    .|4! Class, Level & Experience                                     |100%
    .|25%= Primary Class   |25% Barbarian    |25%= Level     |25% 4    |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -               |= Level        | -       |
    .|= Experience Points  | 4,100           |= Total Level  | 4       |
    .|= Next Level At      | 6,500           |= Proficiency  | +2      |
    .|= Max Health         | 38              |= Initiative   | +1      |
    .|= Current Health     | 31              |= Armour Class | 13      |
    .|= Passive Perception | 12              |= Speed        | 30'     |
    </small>



    Basic Information
    Character Name.Buran BoHeight6'5"
    Player NameJonathan BondWeightlbs
    Character RaceGenasi (Air)EyesDark
    AlignmentChaotic NeutralHairWhite
    Deity SizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel4
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points4,100Total Level4
    Next Level At6,500Proficiency+2
    Max Health38Initiative+1
    Current Health31Armour Class13
    Passive Perception12Speed30'


    As you can see, the code is much easier to maintain, especially for an ever evolving character sheet.  But without being able to specify a fixed width I cannot get the desired result.

    This message was last edited by the user at 11:21, Sun 21 Jan 2018.

    DarkLightHitomi
     member, 1264 posts
    Sun 21 Jan 2018
    at 11:40
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    LonePaladin:
    DarkLightHitomi:
    How can you set how wide the browser is set for? I haven't seen any way to do so.

    Resize the window. Or have your display set to that resolution.


    Neither of those have any effect on the website width (I think it might affect the responsive site version, but I stay away from that, especially since I can't control how big it is, it shows up way too big. Seems to think I'm blind and need Big Fonts turned on. And that is all responsive sites, not just responsive rpol.).

    This message was last edited by the user at 11:44, Sun 21 Jan 2018.

    Escribblings
     member, 14 posts
    Mon 19 Feb 2018
    at 22:26
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    OK, so I don't know what I was doing wrong before, maybe I just didn't put spaces in the right place, but there is a workaround for what I want.

    It's nested tables

    This


    <small>
    .|4! Basic Information                                             |100%
    .|25%= Character Name. |25% Buran Bo     |25%= Height    |25% 6'5" |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond   |= Weight       |205 lbs  |
    .|= Character Race     | Genasi (Air)    |= Eyes         | Dark    |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Neutral |= Hair         | White   |
    .|= Deity              |                 |= Size         | Medium  |

    .|4! Class, Level & Experience                                     |100%
    .|25%= Primary Class   |25% Barbarian    |25%= Level     |25% 4    |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -               |= Level        | -       |
    .|= Experience Points  | 4,100           |= Total Level  | 4       |
    .|= Next Level At      | 6,500           |= Proficiency  | +2      |
    .|= Max Health         | 38              |= Initiative   | +1      |
    .|= Current Health     | 31              |= Armour Class | 13      |
    .|= Passive Perception | 12              |= Speed        | 30'     |
    </small>


    Gives this:


    Basic Information
    Character Name.Buran BoHeight6'5"
    Player NameJonathan BondWeightlbs
    Character RaceGenasi (Air)EyesDark
    AlignmentChaotic NeutralHairWhite
    Deity SizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel4
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points4,100Total Level4
    Next Level At6,500Proficiency+2
    Max Health38Initiative+1
    Current Health31Armour Class13
    Passive Perception12Speed30'


    But THIS


    <small>
    <table width=500><tr><td>
    .|4! Basic Information                                             |100%
    .|25%= Character Name. |25% Buran Bo     |25%= Height    |25% 6'5" |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond   |= Weight       |205 lbs  |
    .|= Character Race     | Genasi (Air)    |= Eyes         | Dark    |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Neutral |= Hair         | White   |
    .|= Deity              |                 |= Size         | Medium  |

    .|4! Class, Level & Experience                                     |100%
    .|25%= Primary Class   |25% Barbarian    |25%= Level     |25% 4    |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -               |= Level        | -       |
    .|= Experience Points  | 4,100           |= Total Level  | 4       |
    .|= Next Level At      | 6,500           |= Proficiency  | +2      |
    .|= Max Health         | 38              |= Initiative   | +1      |
    .|= Current Health     | 31              |= Armour Class | 13      |
    .|= Passive Perception | 12              |= Speed        | 30'     |
    </td></tr></table>
    </small>




    Basic Information
    Character Name.Buran BoHeight6'5"
    Player NameJonathan BondWeightlbs
    Character RaceGenasi (Air)EyesDark
    AlignmentChaotic NeutralHairWhite
    Deity SizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel4
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points4,100Total Level4
    Next Level At6,500Proficiency+2
    Max Health38Initiative+1
    Current Health31Armour Class13
    Passive Perception12Speed30'



    So apart from the extra table border (which I can live with) it gives the result I want.

    But it would be nice to be able to do this natively in Smart Tables.
    horus
     member, 392 posts
     Wayfarer of the
     Western Wastes
    Tue 20 Feb 2018
    at 00:35
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Escribblings:
    OK, so I don't know what I was doing wrong before, maybe I just didn't put spaces in the right place, but there is a workaround for what I want.

    It's nested tables

    {SNIPPAGE:  example of normal easy table and nested easy table for comparison - horus}

    So apart from the extra table border (which I can live with) it gives the result I want.

    But it would be nice to be able to do this natively in Smart Tables.


    Still, that's a neat trick!  If I understand it aright, you basically wrap the Easy Table you want in a pre-sized HTML table, and everything scales relative to the wrapper table's width in pixels, is that right?

    Thanks for sharing this technique.

    I wonder, though, what is the advantage over (for instance):


    <center>
    |!< Name:    |<2 ???            |!< Class:  |<2 ???   |60%
    |!< Clan:    |<2 ???            |!< Level:  |^2 1     |
    |!< Faction: |<2 ???            |!< Temple: |<2       |
    |!^ STR | ? |!^ DEX | ? |! CON^ | ? |
    |!^ INT | ? |!^ PSY | ? |! CHA^ | ? |
    |!^ HD  | ? |!^ HP  | ? |! AP^ | ? |
    |!<4 Attack Damage | ? | ? |
    |!2 Spells | | | | |
    |! Ammunition ||! Rations ||! Light ||
    |!>5 Encumberance ||
    | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | |
    |!4 Languages |!2 Spells |
    | | |
    </center>


    which would yield:


    Name:???Class:???
    Clan:???Level:1
    Faction:???Temple: 
    STR?DEX?CON^?
    INT?PSY?CHA^?
    HD?HP?AP^?
    Attack Damage??
    Spells    
    Ammunition Rations Light 
    Encumberance 
          
          
          
          
    LanguagesSpells
          

    This message was last edited by the user at 01:10, Tue 20 Feb 2018.

    LonePaladin
     member, 701 posts
     Creator of HeroForge
    Tue 20 Feb 2018
    at 07:16
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    horus:
    I wonder, though, what is the advantage over (for instance):

    Using the table as a wrapper lets you specify the entire table's width as a fixed amount. (Say, 500 pixels.) The percentage method makes the table resize its cells based on the width of the browser window, which may make some cells misbehave.
    Escribblings
     member, 15 posts
    Tue 20 Feb 2018
    at 07:40
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    horus:
    <snip>

    I wonder, though, what is the advantage over (for instance):


    Because, depending on resolution or window size, that could force cell contents to wrap and break the intended formatting.

    I want my table to stay the same regardless.

    This will mean that a window is forced to scroll if minimised, but the table format stays the same.

    Un maximise your browser and play with resizing it, you might see what I mean.

    Now I fully realise that tables, and HTML, in reality should not be used for formatting - however - this is RPoL, and it doesn't implement full CSS or HTML.
    Escribblings
     member, 16 posts
    Tue 20 Feb 2018
    at 23:37
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.


    Basic Information
    Character Name.Buran BoHeight6'5"
    Player NameJonathan BondWeightlbs
    Character RaceGenasi (Air)EyesDark
    AlignmentChaotic NeutralHairWhite
    Deity SizeMedium

    Class, Level & Experience
    Primary ClassBarbarianLevel4
    Multiclass 1-Level-
    Experience Points4,100Total Level4
    Next Level At6,500Proficiency+2
    Max Health38Initiative+1
    Current Health31Armour Class13
    Passive Perception12Speed30'



    Wow - it even allows to put 2 tables side by side
    <small>
    <table width=800><tr><td>
    .|4! Basic Information                                             |100%
    .|25%= Character Name. |25% Buran Bo     |25%= Height    |25% 6'5" |
    .|= Player Name        | Jonathan Bond   |= Weight       |205 lbs  |
    .|= Character Race     | Genasi (Air)    |= Eyes         | Dark    |
    .|= Alignment          | Chaotic Neutral |= Hair         | White   |
    .|= Deity              |                 |= Size         | Medium  |
    </td>
    <td>
    .|4! Class, Level & Experience                                     |100%
    .|25%= Primary Class   |25% Barbarian    |25%= Level     |25% 4    |
    .|= Multiclass 1       | -               |= Level        | -       |
    .|= Experience Points  | 4,100           |= Total Level  | 4       |
    .|= Next Level At      | 6,500           |= Proficiency  | +2      |
    .|= Max Health         | 38              |= Initiative   | +1      |
    .|= Current Health     | 31              |= Armour Class | 13      |
    .|= Passive Perception | 12              |= Speed        | 30'     |
    </td></tr></table>
    </small>
    

    horus
     member, 395 posts
     Wayfarer of the
     Western Wastes
    Wed 21 Feb 2018
    at 01:28
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    Thanks for making it clear where the advantage lies.  The side-by-side trick is a neat technique, too.

    I have a sandbox devoted to tips and tricks, and may do a write-up on this, crediting Escribblings and linking here, of course.

    I may have to break out my old books on HTML again...  this is good stuff.
    Escribblings
     member, 17 posts
    Wed 21 Feb 2018
    at 01:45
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to horus (msg # 231):

    It is important to note, and this may be where I fell down before...

    The smart table must be on a separate table top the td, a space is not enough to prevent it from breaking.

    In theory, you should be able to put a grid or table in rows and columns...


    12
    34

    12
    34

    12
    34

    12
    34


    Yup...

    You'll need to quote the message for the code.  I'm on my phone and feeling lazy.
    horus
     member, 396 posts
     Wayfarer of the
     Western Wastes
    Wed 21 Feb 2018
    at 03:14
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to Escribblings (msg # 232):

    No problem.  Thanks for sharing what may become a frequently used technique on RPoL.
    Aidhogan
     member, 73 posts
    Mon 15 Oct 2018
    at 18:01
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    I've been unable to find any documentation on vertical alignment in spanning cells.  <^> are good for x.1 cells, but is there an equivalent for 1.y?
    Escribblings
     member, 19 posts
    Tue 23 Oct 2018
    at 06:40
    Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
    In reply to Aidhogan (msg # 234):

    Good question...

    I think they just align centrally.

    The only way I've got around it is with Line breaks.

    1LeftCentreRight
    2Top


    Middle

    Bottom
    3
    4