jase
 admin, 2183 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 02:39
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
So the question still remains, do we prefer my suggestion:

Smarttable:

+---------------------------+
{First Header}{Second Header}
[Content Cell][Content Cell ]
[Content Cell][Content Cell ]
+---------------------------+



PHP Markdown:

First Header  | Second Header
------------- | -------------
Content Cell  | Content Cell
Content Cell  | Content Cell



Or some Frankenstein hybrid?  I'm happy to implement whatever, even come up with your own ideas.  I don't care what as long as it meets the major design goals: easy for users, looks like the end result.  It'd also be great if it had some minor flexibility.  There also has to be some kind of majority agreement on what's best, which we seem to be lacking at the moment.
Alhaja
 member, 223 posts
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 02:47
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Vote: SmartTable
pdubs83
 member, 91 posts
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 03:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'm all for whatever is easiest to use and, personally, I think I'd have a hard time remembering when to use [ and ] versus { and }... I'm just thick like that though.  So... I'd shoot for the PHP version if those two options are the ones up for vote.
katisara
 member, 3953 posts
 All is hardcore
 when made with love
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 13:55
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Smarttable looks pretty sharp, and looks to require fewer keystrokes (and fewer esoteric HTML codewords).

Is there any particular difference in appearance of functionality between all of these different options?
Robin
 member, 617 posts
 The old grey wyrm
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 15:52
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
If I was typing up a table from scratch the Markdown system would be easier for me to remember. I get mixed up over <> and [] codes already. However, if SmartTable was implemented I would constantly refer back to an example like the one in msg #24, copy&paste and edit so I got the codes right. I expect there would be a suitable example presented in the FAQs or Help so it would be easy enough to find.

I would vote for SmartTable because I like the extra option of text alignment within cells.

Whichever way this goes, thanks Jase. This will be a real boon. The current tables codes has always scared me off from using them at all.
Yoss
 member, 952 posts
 A Serious Waste of Time
 The largest game on RPOL
Mon 13 Apr 2009
at 20:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In reply to jase (msg #24):

I vote ST, but without the +------+ part.  The +---+ just adds typing for no benefit as far as I can tell.  If +-+ is what triggers the <table> tags, just change it so that the [st] tag does it instead (like in msg 23).

@kat: The SmartTable is more flexible than the Markdown.  Reference message 18 from jase.
Brygun
 member, 64 posts
 RPG since 1982
Sat 18 Apr 2009
at 21:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I just wanna say this looks very helpful.

Whatever the formatting command I do like seeing a marker for a blank cell so I can manually count the cell location.

e.g.

+-+3 (start table of 3 columns)
[1] [2] [3]
[] [] [4]

The empty markers being needed to make the 4 appear below the 3.

oh..an easy link to where ever the table manual is (once its finalized by those that know tables more than I)

This message was last edited by the user at 21:13, Sat 18 Apr 2009.

jase
 admin, 2186 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:32
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hmm, so it seems so far we have;

3 votes for php markdown
3 (4?) votes for smarttable (1 with modifications)
2 votes for either

Leaving all decisions up to me again, are we?  (c;
bigbadron
 moderator, 10267 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Smarttable +1.  Can't be leaving you with any choice.  :)
ornot
 member, 10 posts
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 09:41
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Looks that way Jase.

Personally I don't use the tables at present, and don't forsee needing to. That's probably down to laziness and lack of familiarity with markup language of any kind.
cruinne
 moderator, 4939 posts
 ''Grenades cost extra.''
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 13:18
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
make that smarttable +1 here, too.

If we're not going to ape HTML, there's no reason, to my mind, to ape some other system.
Foryn Gilnith
 member, 546 posts
 I intend to boldly go and
 split many infinitives
Tue 21 Apr 2009
at 00:09
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
cruinne:
If we're not going to ape HTML, there's no reason, to my mind, to ape some other system.

For website consistency, really, I'd like to second this. Mashing more than one imitation together will produce confusion. I don't really have much preference, since I'm unlikely to use either system anyway; but for the purpose of setting a design precedent I'd have to vote for smarttable - whether its current incarnation or a revised one.
Kalak_of_Tyr
 member, 4 posts
Tue 21 Apr 2009
at 08:40
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
smarttable too
megadeus
 member, 1151 posts
 'Twas brillig and the
 slithy toves...
Wed 22 Apr 2009
at 02:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Hearing the arguments against Markdown-like tables, I rescind my recommendation to mimic Markdown's table structure.

The alternate simple table structure proposed in this thread would work just as well, and I agree that since Rpol has its own unique markup for most other features, it might as well be consistent in making up its own markup, rather than picking and choosing from a number of possibly-conflicting syntaxes.
fantasyknight
 member, 36 posts
Wed 23 Dec 2009
at 06:42
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I vote for the markdown. I know its not as versatile, but for the majority of the masses here on RPoL, its the simplest and easiest thing to use. Not to say that the SmartTable isn't going to be overly difficult, but for the most noob friendly implementation, it has to be the markdown.
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 1781 posts
 AKA Banaticus
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 06:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I like the one that's most similar to HTML, since virtually all of RPoL works with regular HTML tags instead of BB code.
matthewfenn
 member, 115 posts
 www.nj-pbem.com
 Northern Journey PBeM DM
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 08:37
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Having just caught up on this thread and having missed it before - I'd vote for Smarttable.

Is it still possible to have multiple lines within a cell?

See below an example of how I've used the existing tables:

Note - one of the problems I've had is I can't force a column to a specific width.  You can force the table to 100% (or less), but not individual columns to say 50% sadly...  what are the chances of implementing that? he asks hopefully. :-)

LIFE: 57
CRMNLSTGRANT
C.HAND: 2  Grant Hand 4
C.DECK: 39 (60 card deck) Grant DECK 39 (60 card deck)
BATTLEFIELD:
Land
(-)Piranha Marsh (B)
(-)Swamp (B)

(-)Crypt of Agadeem (B)(see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/212.html]
Creatures
War-spike changeling (3/3,changeling)(R:1st strike)(runed halo)
[http://magiccards.info/mt/en/112.html]
Child of Night (2/1, lifelink)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/88.html]
Anowon, the Ruin Sage (4/3)on our upkeep, each player sacs a nonvampire)
 [http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/49.html]
 
Vampire Nighthawk (10/11, flying,deathtouch,lifelink)[8](runed halo)[http://magiccards.info/zen/en/116.html] (blade of bloodchief)
t-Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet (5/5)(BBB,tap: destroy creature, see link)
 [http://magiccards.info/zen/en/99.html]
Vampire Aristocrat (6/6)(sac creature get +2/+2 for turn)[4](blade of bloodchief)
 [http://magiccards.info/m10/en/117.html]
Black Vampire Creature Token (2/4)
Black Vampire Creature Token (1/1)

praguepride
 member, 312 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 14:14
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
+1 for WYSIWYG table creation

I'd be a HUGE fan of cleaning up all those <td><tr>'s as it makes complicated grids very difficult to read.


When I was running maps in games I would constantly have to Preview to make sure I put stuff in the right box because when you get a 20x20 grid full of stuff, it becomes very difficult to keep track of as your vision is clouded by all the <td>'s and <tr>'s

It was even more difficult during a board game I tried to run as if you spend a lot of time to make your grid nice and readable, and someone "quotes" it and messes it up, then you're back with a huge blob again.
Zag24
 member, 308 posts
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 14:56
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I don't feel strongly about which form of simple table you implement -- the choices all seem ok and pretty simple to get right.  If I were to pick, I'd go with wiki table format, which is pretty easy and powerful, doesn't get in the way much.

However, one feature I would really like is some technique to convert the simple one to the more complex layout using the table, th, tr, and td tags that you already support.  I often start making a simple table and get half way into it before realizing that I want something more complex than the simple format supports.  If it were easy to convert -- a one-time, no way back conversion -- that would be super.
stm
 member, 28 posts
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 15:11
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I'd say that WYSWYG editing is outside the scope of this thread. ;)

One argument against smarttable: Have some mercy with us poor non-english-keyboard users. It's really a pain to type "[]" or "{}" because it's AltGr + something over here.

For consistency reasons I'd stick with the <> idiom as much as possible (I'm constantly confused about the [list], and [code] tag). So


<smarttable>
Header 1 | Header 2
---
Field 1 | Field two
</smarttable>


would be my favorite. (My actual favorite would be the dokuwiki syntax, but you seem determined to do it your own way.)

This message was last edited by the user at 15:11, Thu 10 June 2010.

praguepride
 member, 313 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Thu 10 Jun 2010
at 16:12
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
It wouldn't be a complete WYSIWYG because of tags on the text, but otherwise it'd be nice to have a simple thing like a <tt> tag but one that arranges things a bit nicer with the solid lines etc.
ashlayne
 member, 1566 posts
 May you have exactly the
 God/dess you deserve. =p
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 03:24
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
Praguepride: truetype already exists.
with code

F
 o
  r
   m
    a
     t
      t
       i
        n
         g

           w
           i
           t
           h

         T
        r
       u
      e
     t
    y
   p
  e
 !


showing code
<tt>
F
 o
  r
   m
    a
     t
      t
       i
        n
         g

           w
           i
           t
           h

         T
        r
       u
      e
     t
    y
   p
  e
 !</tt>
cruinne
 moderator, 5324 posts
 Jack, you have
 debauched my sloth!
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 13:06
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
In addition to the teletype tag, there is also the <pre></pre> tag for "preformatted" text.  Teletype -- <tt></tt> -- is intended for inline text, and preformatted is for blocks of text.  Though, on RPoL, teletype preserves whitespace better than it does in normal HTML so can be used as ashlayne showed, above :-)
praguepride
 member, 320 posts
 Asker of Questions
 Finder of Answers
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 15:59
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
I already know about the <tt> tag, use it quite extinsively. I was using it as an example to show how much easier formatting is when you can just see it right there without having to surround every single word with tags.


Being able to <tt> but with a table as described in the OP would make tables & grids much easier to use from the perspective of someone who doesn't like having to dig through a whole mess of <td> and <tr>'s to find out what's what.


For example: I had a 16x16 grid for players to use as a map. They'd post their actions like: E5 to F9. Easy right?

But I would have to go through and count out where F9 was to get them moved to the right spot. Now make that a larger battle and I hope you see where it gets annoying. Even properly arranging your <td>'s into a grid still means you've got a lot of clutter on the screen.

Then, when I was done moving the PC's, I still had to figure out what the NPC's were doing. And again, because of the clutter of all those table tags, I usually ended up having to preview the post so I could see the nice clean table, and then write down the moves in notepad, re-edit the post and again count out where everything moved to.

In the end it became too much of a hassle so I went mapless, and that makes me sad as someone who likes playing with maps.

If the tables were simple and easy to see like in the OP with his "smarttable" example, it would have been nice and easy as I could see the grid laid out without all those tags extending the lenght of a line.

[] vs. <td></td> saves you 7 characters PER CELL. For a 10 length row, that's 79 characters of saved space. This avoid the line from wrapping, and makes it much easier to read.
Genghis the Hutt
 member, 1786 posts
 AKA Banaticus
Fri 11 Jun 2010
at 19:08
Re: Easy Tables and Grids.
You know, if you use Excel, you can just put characters or whatever in each cell, then "save as web page" then copy/paste the source of that into RPoL, since RPoL basically uses HTML tags for everything.