Ah, I see where my confusion came from.

Steampunk is a genre. So is mystery, horror, fantasy and so on. Noting the conspicuous absence of a Steampunk genre listing, I put in the above request. I seem to have missed the real point of that particular section of game creation.

It seems that where the word 'genre' is used there, what it is meant to convey is "major archetypal story elements common to the game," as opposed to "this game is based on a world much like these other worlds you might be familiar with." There's a subtle difference but, as it isn't spelled out explicitly, it's easy to confuse the two.

It seems to me that the purpose of the genre section then, is to convey major story elements and themes (e.g. magic with fantasy) that are common to the genre without evoking any specific genre niche. "Steampunk" does bring with it a number of, what are in effect, preconditions or assumptions about what will be in the world; whereas a combination of three, more general tags can pass along the same aggregate meaning but without pre-informing your opinion of the game.

Am I on the right track here?

Steampunk has rather grown into its own with games, novels, movies, larps, artists, online fashion stores and so forth that use it as a defining genre. How much more would you really need to see before it was recognized?

I'm aware of the earlier debates and still favour it being listed.

It's likely been said before, but as server tasking as more tags might be when you can simply combine them, more tags enable more description at a glance and more detailed search-ability.

A historical fantasy sci-fi could convey steampunk, Shadowrun, or many other systems.

A mystery steampunk romance is a very clear type of game.
A action anime tragedy is a very clear type of game.

But I digress.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:02, Mon 10 Dec 2012.

Steam seems to be requested a lot.  Are there any other genres requested nearly this often?

I think that a 'Steam' type category is quite overdue, but that 'Steampunk' is simultaneously too narrow in in its correct definition and too broad as people now use it, while the existence of the 'steam' system of online game accounts could lead to confusion among players.

As a hypothetical alternate title I therefore humbly propose "Gaslamp" which has been combine with several existing categories such as 'Gaslamp-Fantasy' and 'Gaslamp era Vampire Romance' for stories I have read, and any good story can/will become a game on RPoL eventually.

In summation:

Gaslamp: +1
Steam: +0.1
Steampunk: -1

I used steam for short, but "Steamworks" is what I would prefer.

Ah in that case I amend my ratings to include:

Steamworks: +0.5

(I still feel that gaslamp is more commonly used and versatile.)

I have to admit, I don't know what steam and steamworks are, but steampunk is very familiar. I wonder if it would be a more recognisable term among most gamers?

Recognizable yes, implemented, no. "Steampunk" as a genre has been hashed over so many times on this borad that there is no way in heaven or on earth that jase and the mods would EVER change their minds about it. The only way to get this through is to put it under some other terminology that is not filed under 'auto reject' in their heads.

In reply to Alexei Yaruk-Mundhenk (msg # 14):

Actually it's not filed under "auto-reject" in our heads, or anywhere else.  The request for a steampunk genre is given full consideration every time it comes up.  The fact that nobody has yet managed to show that it is necessary (or even decide on an acceptable name for it, as demonstrated above) does not mean that it is auto-rejected.

There is a difference between 'necessary' and 'useful'.

"Cyberpunk" is not 'necessary' it is covered under 'sci-fi', but it is 'useful', largely for it's '-punk' aspect.

"Steampunk" however is not seen as useful enough be 'necessary' because you can as one of the mods I do believe said "approximate it with existing genre combinations like 'sci-fi/historical' or 'Cyberpunk/Historical'."

Seems there is only room for one '-punk' genre and the mods have picked their favorite.

There's actually a blurred line between necessary and useful, not that distinct a divide.

At the end of the day it's only a category. There's also the point to consider that this is a privately-owned site, so of course Jase is going to pick the categories he wants.

The impression I get are that the mods aren't just here to weigh in one way or the other about the suggestions, but challenge them.. and through doing so weed out those that don't fit for whatever reason. Jase has still chosen ideas before, even when things weren't looking up.

Sure, you think Steampunk fits (by whatever name) and I do as well. But if it isn't implemented we'll live. If it is, then that would be nice.

At the time when Cyberpunk was added as a genre, there was no option to mix and match multiple genres, as there is now.  Had there been, it might not have been added.  At the time it was also deemed different enough from existing genres to warrant a separate classification.

Also Cyberpunk was the only 'punk genre about then, so yes, it was the favourite simply by virtue of being the only one.

Ah, but now, now when you CAN mix and match genre why does it remain? And dont say "Because changing it would mess with peoples games" you do that sort of thing all the time, its your furshlugen JOB on this site, isn't it? Why has "Cyberpunk" not simply been Shortend to "Punk" and let the mixing have a new option that does not come with any undesired strings attached? Why does it remain "Cyberpunk." humm?
This message was last edited by the user at 22:40, Mon 10 Dec 2012.

Steampunk and cyberpunk really have very little in common.  Shorting cyberpunk to just punk doesn't really address the problem.  The genre was just poorly named, getting a bastardized version of cyberpunk.  Most steamwork settings have very little to no "punk" to them, there about adventure and wonderment.  Steampunk is universally understood as a Victorian era of technology.  Typically it has elements of alternative technology such as air ships and high voltage Tesla innovations.  This doesn't really address fantasy settings such as Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms, where arcane casters wear steam armor and control large steam driving automation and use other clockwork wondrous items.

Because the variants of the setting, I've been saying Steamworks is a better choice.  But Steamworks or Steampunk, I can guarantee that the group of gamers that want this category added will take just about anything with steam or clock in its name.

Just to clarify since it was said somewhere else, by no means do I want gas-lamp.  That makes no sense to me.

I'm sorry, changing it to 'punk would not actually "mess with peoples games" at all.

And no, we do not change genre names all the time.  I'm not sure where you get that idea from, or that it is our job to "mess with peoples games".

It remains "Cyberpunk" because it hasn't been changed.  It may be in future, or it may not.

Short answer - because jase hasn't changed it.

Should he decide to do so, he will.  I don't remember him giving the moderators any more explanation (or asking for our input on the topic any more than we've offered in such threads) than you can read on these topics in this forum.

Hey, I'm not saying that the people whose games you mess with don't DESERVE IT. (KhaosXTeam springs instantly to mind.) But the reason you have moderator powers is that you HAVE to "mess with people's games" some times.

And As I seem to recall from when I was very very new around here, and tried to be online doing your jobs for you for a week straight 24/7, most of the mod squad are Jase friends IRL, that's how you got the job in the first place. Nothing wrong with having your friends help you out, I mean I know I wouldn't trust mod powers to anyone I didn't know personally if I were in Jase position, but it's hard to believe he doesn't ask you guys about this stuff: again if I were in his position I know I would ask my friends "Hey, everyone seems to be saying I aught to make 'Cyberpunk' just 'Punk' are they daft or is there something too this?".

Believe whatever you want, Alexei.  If it makes you feel better to think that we conspire and giggle and lie to you just to mess with the other members of the community, I certainly can't stop you.

Ok, so Jase plays things cagy, 'close to the vest' as it were, but could someone paerhaps ASK him why he leaves cyberpunk as this kind of 'odd man out' among the categories instead of switching it to 'Punk' where it suddenly becomes more useful?

I mean look Let me just give a quick demonstration

"Cyberpunk, Hisotrical, Sci-Fi" Mixed up mess.

"Historical, Punk, Sci-Fi" Steampunk!


"Cyberpunk" Fine...

"Punk, Sci-Fi" Cyberpunk, also fine.


See?

So maybe some one with a bit more sway than us proles could put the idea to him?

Alexei,
It makes less since to change cyberpunk to punk then to just add Steamworks.

Cyberpunk is a clear dystopian future with heavy emphasis on tech.

Punk would confuse people searching.  It would seem more appropriate a tag for any dystopian setting, which steampunk is not.

For steam settings, I would still use historical sci-fi.  While it doesn't describe the genre well, its better than punk.

---

Anyone looking for a traditional steampunk game could make the connection with a tag named Steamworks, plus it can be used for fantasy and other settings that aren't Victorian.

You do realize that this is my whole point in a nutshell.

"Cyberpunk" is a very small and largely vanished genre.

"Punk." however covers a broad range of related Genres including "CyberPUNK, SteamPUNK, DieselPUNK, PUNKrock, etcetera" with the unifying theme that the world has gone to hell and the only way to fix things is to utterly destroy the established order and rebuild from the ground up since as history has proved no reform from within is possible. The term "Steam'punk'" is misused more often than it is used correctly, the PUNK movement embraces ideals diametrically opposed to that of the common view of the steampunk genre, that no amount of exploration or innovation will solve the worlds problems until we fix what is wrong at home first, and that that is not possible so long as the system which creates and sustains those problems stays in place.

So they should ass Steamworks and rename cyberpunk to dystopian.

Then cyberpunk is dystopian+sci-fi

I don't think that 'Steam' or 'Steamworks' or even shortening Cyberpunk to 'Punk' would be that helpful.

I understand both why Steampunk has not been added and why Cyberpunk still exists in its current form.

For the folks who would like to use Steampunk, myself included, it would be simpler to add the word to the game description than to hassle the moderators over a point of semantics.

I am sorry to see that differences of opinion in this thread led to finger-pointing.

It should have crosses my mind when reading the FAQ that, for a site as busy as RPoL, this idea was likely to have been hashed and rehashed before.

I also think we've stepped decidedly away from the original topic and have devolved into arguing over semantics. We're all here to have a good time and it would be foolish of us to let the presence or absence of a given word on an arbitrary list ruin that fun.

If, in the future, I am able to write a compelling argument for the inclusion of Steampunk or a similar Genre, I will return with my thoughts. For now though, I think this topic has been exhausted again. As opposed to deleting the thread, perhaps we should lock it to save for posterity? Perhaps after any final thoughts. I leave it up to the moderator team.

Thank you all!

~Xenoviel

So this probably isn't the ideal time to raise the idea, but if you intend to one day revamp the game categories:

You could start with a handful of main categories and have a range of sub-categories beneath them. For instance:

Fantasy:
-Epic
-Urban
-Dark
-Classic

Futuristic:
-Post Apocalyptic
-Cyberpunk
-Dystopian
-Survivalist
-Science Fiction

Historical:
-Medieval
-Victorian
-Western
-Steampunk
-Other

Horror:
-Werewolf
-Vampire
-Zombie
-Other

Strategy:
-Intrigue
-Mystery
-Warfare

Non-gaming:
-Forums
-Debate and/or Discussion

Non-roleplaying:
-Card games
-Board games
-Other

Heroic:
-Super Hero
-Swashbuckling
-Action

Other/Genre:
-Anime
-Noir
-Pokemon/Digimon
-Comedy

Just an idea.