Vinny
 member, 567 posts
Mon 5 Mar 2018
at 11:23
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
+1 from me too, something that I didn't even know I wanted.
Escribblings
 member, 18 posts
Thu 8 Mar 2018
at 23:58
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I'm on the fence - BUT...

Without the GM revealing the roll, how could you prove that it was your roll and not some arbitrary number pulled by the GM?

I'm not saying they would mess with you, however, I am saying that have a hidden roll (that everyone can see you have made a roll, but not the result) and a secret roll that only the GM can see.

But both have to revealed by the GM in the interest of fair play
NowhereMan
 member, 179 posts
Fri 9 Mar 2018
at 00:34
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
+1 from me.
biscuit
 member, 27 posts
Fri 9 Mar 2018
at 00:46
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In reply to Escribblings (msg # 19):

If you're worried about the GM being fair, then you probably shouldn't be playing with that GM. I have one GM that makes a lot of the rolls for me and have no problem as I believe he is fair. The blind roll or hidden option would be nice as it still gives the players some control, but I would play with that GM regardless of whether there is a blind roll or not.
Utsukushi
 member, 1443 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Fri 9 Mar 2018
at 01:14
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
GMs have been fudging rolls since before there were dice, and in my experience, it's usually in the player's favor.  It's an option they already have on RPoL, even, so, yeah.  It's really no different than having you roll without having already told you what the target is -- how do you know they don't adjust the target according to your roll?  Or when you choose which door to open in a dungeon, how do you know they haven't already decided what the next room will be regardless?  And more importantly, is that really a problem?

Just embrace the illusion.  Give in to your hat--- wait, no, wrong lesson.

This message was last edited by the user at 01:15, Fri 09 Mar.

MalaeDezeld
 member, 61 posts
Fri 9 Mar 2018
at 03:43
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I'm on the fence too.

On the plus side, I love that it put the responsibility of the modifier in the players hand the same way a normal roll does.

On the other hand, I feel that it wouldn't help that much because players would be as distrustful of the resulting gm post as they are now when they fail a check or, for in-person game, when the gm ask for the PCs' modifier and roll behind his screen.
LoreGuard
 member, 659 posts
Fri 16 Mar 2018
at 21:10
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In reply to MalaeDezeld (msg # 23):

I don't think you should think of it as a trust issue against the GM.  I think most players don't trust the Dice Roll generator.  (not the GM)  It is obvious it has a beef with them from the start.  I think it is more of a being able to take ownership of generating the roll, and feeling like it is their action.

As mentioned, its primary benefit is that it allow the player to look up the necessary modifiers and dice for the roll, the GM gets to verify assuming they want to, and then determine the result.

Is it Required?  No, games can go on much like they have been.  Players could make an arrangement to post the dice and modifiers required for rolls they want to make, and the GM can then roll it for them.  This would however same some of the GM's time.  So the two benefits I see, more player ownership of the responsibility of the roll.  A bit of a psychological benefit.  But as the player may be more directly connected to the modifiers for their character, it might make the person defining the roll, closer to the information needed to make the roll.  It also, as I mentioned by allowing the Player to be responsible for setting up and making the roll, would save the GM's time.  Allowing them to simply check the result and determine what that means according to the game.

I'm +1 for the idea, if Jase is up to it.

Any other options such as the ability for the GM to later choose to reveal die rolls if the want.  That would really be extra stuff.  It could potentially be done, not unlike how they can choose to clear the log of all or specific rolls, but the ability to eventually reveal rolls wouldn't really be that important to me.  If it were simple to do, sure, but the more functional part is letting the player make/define the roll and let the GM see it.
Vinny
 member, 568 posts
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 17:43
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
LoreGuard:
As mentioned, its primary benefit is that it allow the player to look up the necessary modifiers and dice for the roll, the GM gets to verify assuming they want to, and then determine the result.

Had missed this aspect of it, now I'm double plus one.
MalaeDezeld
 member, 64 posts
Fri 23 Mar 2018
at 15:45
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
LoreGuard:
In reply to MalaeDezeld (msg # 23):

I don't think you should think of it as a trust issue against the GM.  I think most players don't trust the Dice Roll generator.  (not the GM)  It is obvious it has a beef with them from the start.  I think it is more of a being able to take ownership of generating the roll, and feeling like it is their action.


I was thinking more in term of metagaming paranoia: the gm asks for bonus and rolls secretly, the player are now paranoids and search every nook and cranny in case they missed something. I believe that the scenario would be mostly the same with an hidden roll (but with the added bonus of the psychological effect of pressing the button and that the gm don't need to roll for all of the players).
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1313 posts
Fri 23 Mar 2018
at 20:08
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In this format, there is no need for the gm to ask for bonus, they can look it up easier and way, way faster than asking for it. If they do ask for it, then they do so for a reason, whether logical (they want the players paranoid) or lazy (can't be bothered to follow a link and look at a character sheet).
horus
 member, 438 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 05:49
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
DarkLightHitomi:
In this format, there is no need for the gm to ask for bonus, they can look it up easier and way, way faster than asking for it. If they do ask for it, then they do so for a reason, whether logical (they want the players paranoid) or lazy (can't be bothered to follow a link and look at a character sheet).


I would tend to agree with you here:  blind should mean blind.  Players should not know anything about a blind roll in play other than that they made it until it takes effect.  This maximizes surprise, if any, and gives a bit more verisimilitude to the play-action.

This message was last edited by the user at 05:51, Sat 24 Mar.

NowhereMan
 member, 186 posts
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 06:02
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
quote:
Players should not know anything about a blind roll in play other than that they made it until it takes effect.


I don't know about that. Certain instances of blind rolls being useful would be in games such as d20 Modern, where a player may make a Demolitions roll to prepare explosives, or a Forgery roll to fake a passport, and is not intended to know the result, even though the player would be aware of their modifiers.
horus
 member, 439 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 06:13
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
NowhereMan:
quote:
Players should not know anything about a blind roll in play other than that they made it until it takes effect.


I don't know about that. Certain instances of blind rolls being useful would be in games such as d20 Modern, where a player may make a Demolitions roll to prepare explosives, or a Forgery roll to fake a passport, and is not intended to know the result, even though the player would be aware of their modifiers.


I see your point.  It would seem that anywhere a result should have a measure of uncertainty surrounding it,  a blind roll might be a good fit?

Still, I tend to agree with what DarkLightHitomi said earlier:  for a blind roll, the GM can easily look up the required modifiers instead of asking for them.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1314 posts
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 09:40
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
horus:
DarkLightHitomi:
In this format, there is no need for the gm to ask for bonus, they can look it up easier and way, way faster than asking for it. If they do ask for it, then they do so for a reason, whether logical (they want the players paranoid) or lazy (can't be bothered to follow a link and look at a character sheet).


I would tend to agree with you here:  blind should mean blind.  Players should not know anything about a blind roll in play other than that they made it until it takes effect.  This maximizes surprise, if any, and gives a bit more verisimilitude to the play-action.



And why should they know they made a check?

If they know they made a perception check, but nothing was revealed, the players know they failed a perception check, which significantly defeats the purpose of the perception check.

For cases like Demolitions, they know what the character did, if the gm decides to use a check instead of handwaving it, does it matter to the players? Like really?

Certainly, some players are in it for the dice rolls, but for them, not seeing the result is as bad as not making the check at all.

Also, consider that everything a character does can be represented by a check, but that doesn't mean it needs to be. Why does it matter if the gm decides a particular case deserves a dice check but not a different case?
horus
 member, 442 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 11:18
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
DarkLightHitomi:
And why should they know they made a check?


Because in the "blind roll" option under discussion, the player makes the roll (meaning he or she casts the virtual dice) not knowing what its purpose is...  Maybe I phrased that poorly.  (I blame Archer for this...)

This message was last edited by the user at 11:32, Sat 24 Mar.

NowhereMan
 member, 189 posts
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 13:22
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
DarkLightHitomi:
...does it matter to the players? Like really?


In a word, yes. To some players, anyway. I know there are players in my home games that would be very displeased should I handwave their Demolitions/Forgery/Whatever rolls. Why those players care is their business, but they do.
LonePaladin
 member, 710 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 15:50
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
horus:
DarkLightHitomi:
And why should they know they made a check?


Because in the "blind roll" option under discussion, the player makes the roll (meaning he or she casts the virtual dice) not knowing what its purpose is...  Maybe I phrased that poorly.  (I blame Archer for this...)

Actually, the purpose behind blind rolls (in this discussion) is to give players the option of making rolls -- with all the modifiers and 'reason for roll' put in as they usually do -- but without seeing the results.

If the GM wants a skill check for a character without that character seeing there was a roll made at all, then the GM can just use a secret roll (not assigned to that character) as usual.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1316 posts
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 20:19
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In reply to LonePaladin (msg # 34):

Yea, but why? For what purpose? It makes no sense what-so-ever. I'm just not seeing how it adds anything with a shred of value. The entirety of what it does is let the player go "Look! I pushed a button!"
bigbadron
 moderator, 15521 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 20:46
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 35):

If it has no value to you, then don't use it.  For those who would use it, and enjoy the psychological effect of pushing the button ("Hey!  I did something!  And I'm on a lucky streak just lately!") it adds plenty of value.

Just like a lot of other site features...

Many freeform gamers don't use dice, so the dice roller is of no use to them.  If you're running a discussion forum, that doesn't use character sheets, then they are of no use to you.  If you don't use a mobile device to access the site, then working to make the site mobile friendly is a waste of effort.  Etc, etc...

For those who do use these features, then they are useful.  To those who don't, then there is no point to them.  Should we scrap the dice roller completely because freeform players don't use it?
horus
 member, 443 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 22:09
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
LonePaladin:
horus:
DarkLightHitomi:
And why should they know they made a check?


Because in the "blind roll" option under discussion, the player makes the roll (meaning he or she casts the virtual dice) not knowing what its purpose is...  Maybe I phrased that poorly.  (I blame Archer for this...)

Actually, the purpose behind blind rolls (in this discussion) is to give players the option of making rolls -- with all the modifiers and 'reason for roll' put in as they usually do -- but without seeing the results.

If the GM wants a skill check for a character without that character seeing there was a roll made at all, then the GM can just use a secret roll (not assigned to that character) as usual.


I don't really have a dog in this hunt either way, so, yeah, take what I say here with a Small Siberian Salt Mine (TM) in your hip pocket.  (I'm one who will probably never use this feature, but I see where others have interest, so why not?)

What I do have interest in is the methods and practices for implementing this feature as another sub-function of the Dice Roller, and that's purely for personal reasons.  (It's a hobby.)

But... question:  could not a blind roll option accommodate both types of scenarios?  That is, those where the purpose of the roll is not known immediately and those where it is known from the outset?
tmagann
 member, 518 posts
Sat 24 Mar 2018
at 22:13
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I have a blind roll option would solve, actually: My players refuse to NOT send me rolls they shouldn't see the outcome of. Every time they want to do something, they send me a roll for it, no matter how often I tell them not to. a Blind Roll option would come in handy ... assuming I could convince them to use it, rather than peeking at their rolls to judge the outcome by their result.
NowhereMan
 member, 190 posts
Sun 25 Mar 2018
at 03:01
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
The die color choice is also "pointless", and yet, there it is. So's rolling particular dice for particular characters, switching from a poor-rolling die to a different one, etc.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1319 posts
Mon 26 Mar 2018
at 20:55
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 36):

I understand it doesn't need to have value for me specifically.

What I'm saying is that I don't understand how anyone finds value in "Look! I pushed a button!"
MalaeDezeld
 member, 65 posts
Mon 26 Mar 2018
at 22:05
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I'm siding with the +1 crowd finally.

I chuckle at the idea of using them as the gm to introduce paranoia, like rolling dice behind the gm's screen at the table.

Spoiler for From the players' point of view: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Blind Roll: Gm blindly rolled 100d12+bazillion. Monster's HP.
Blind Roll: Gm blindly rolled 1d100. Night's random encounter (impossible).


Dgorjones
 member, 61 posts
Mon 26 Mar 2018
at 22:47
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I think this is a great idea, and I'm a GM who does all of the dice rolling for my players in my RPoL game.  I wouldn't use this function in my game, but I can see how it would be extremely desirable in games where the players do their own rolls for most things already.

For people asking about how you could confirm a GM uses the blind roll result, here are a couple points:

1. If you don't trust your GM already, you shouldn't be playing in your GM's game.

2. A GM can always copy and paste a roll from the dice roller and post it so the players can see what was rolled.  For blind rolls, that's probably something best done considerably after the fact since the point of a blind roll is a player isn't supposed to gain meta-knowledge from the roll result (e.g., the player shouldn't know whether a thief failed to detect traps because they rolled poorly or because there wasn't a trap).  For my game, these sorts of situations are the only time I use secret rolls.  Otherwise, I cut and paste everything from the dice roller into my update posts and put a spoiler tag on it.  That way the players can audit my work if they want to or just sit back and take a somewhat more narrativist approach to playing.