Skald
 moderator, 802 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 13:23
Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I'd like to see a Blind Roll option added to the Dice Roller allowing a player to roll a dice such as a skill check or saving throw but the results would be hidden from them and only visible to the GM.

Just a checkbox option which would sit nicely on the Dice Roller option screen next to Secret Roll - or alternatively bundle 'em all up as a dropdown list "Roll Type: Standard/Secret/Blind".

Of course the GM can make any roll on a player's behalf, but it adds to the tension and the sense that your fate is in the dice if the player throws the dice and sweats on the outcome without a clue as to whether they've rolled well or badly.

Bonus points if the GM has an option to subsequently reveal the roll if they choose, but I think that would be a bit more work to implement as it would require an option to be added to the results screen.
biscuit
 member, 24 posts
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 15:33
Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I'd like to see this also. It'd be nice if players can roll the rolls their not supposed to know the results of (stealth, perception, etc) without seeing it, but would prefer that the option for the GM to show rolls was added. Shouldn't be harder than adapting the code that does the clear all/some rolls to add a third option to show rolls.
LonePaladin
 member, 704 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 15:57
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
Skald:
Just a checkbox option which would sit nicely on the Dice Roller option screen next to Secret Roll - or alternatively bundle 'em all up as a dropdown list "Roll Type: Standard/Secret/Blind".

Keep them separate. That way you could have
  • Standard Rolls -- the usual
  • Secret Rolls -- only you and the GM can see them
  • Blind Rolls -- you see that you rolled, but only the GM sees the result
  • Secret Blind Rolls -- only you and the GM see that you rolled, only the GM sees the result

aguy777
 member, 264 posts
 Join Date:
 Fri, 29 Nov, 2013
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 22:01
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I like this idea. +1 from me.
horus
 member, 405 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 03:09
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
Not to throw too much cold water on this building excitement, but if the result needs to be hidden from the player, it matters not one whit to its outcome who makes the throw - the RPoL Dice Roller will render a fair result in any event.

GMs are perfectly capable of making rolls (Secret Rolls) when the results need to be kept from the player(s).

Am I wrong about this?
WhiteComic
 member, 396 posts
 In omnia Paratus
 Momento Mori
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 04:55
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I actually was just about to say the same thing. While I understand players need to do skill checks or saving throws, or anything else in regards to this topic; however the Game Master could proceed to take on that responsibility instead by using the “Secret Roll” option.

It would be kind of useless to add this option when there’s a better alternative already in place.

While the idea is nice, there’s definitely already an implemented option for this.

This message was last edited by the user at 04:55, Tue 27 Feb.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15509 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 05:30
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
+1 because this is absolutely not the same thing as a GM secret roll on behalf of the player.

While a GM could just make a secret roll, doing so can leave players feeling that they have no connection to the result.

Additionally, since a GM secret roll is entirely hidden, with no record that it was even made visible to the player he was rolling for, a bad spell on the roller can leave players thinking, "Gee!  Another 1.  Is he really rolling, or is he just telling me that he is, and auto-failing my skill checks?"
Nathanael Lockeford
 member, 5 posts
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 06:28
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
+1 from a player perspective.

In line with what the others are saying, I sure would like to feel like the roll is in my power especially if I can't see the result. The anticipation is way higher, IMO, if I'm waiting for the result of MY die roll rather than the GMs. Couldn't tell you exactly why that is, but regardless I think it'd be great to see as an option.
Bornite
 member, 39 posts
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 07:06
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
another +1 from the player prospective

If may be silly of me, but if my character fails a roll, then I want it to be my finger that pushed the button that made that roll fail, even if it's a Secret Blind Roll.
Kessa
 member, 543 posts
 Dark Army:
 Out to Lunch
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 08:50
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
Another +1. I go back and forth on how to do this in games without this option. Rolling for them doesn't seem fair.
horus
 member, 407 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 11:32
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
bigbadron:
+1 because this is absolutely not the same thing as a GM secret roll on behalf of the player.

While a GM could just make a secret roll, doing so can leave players feeling that they have no connection to the result.


What it seems like is this gives the player more of a sense of ownership in the roll?  It still has no impact on the fairness of any particular roll.  The dice roller cares not, so long as a roll is made, it will spit out as nearly a random result as its algorithm is capable of producing.

I'm not saying that how the player feels about the roll is unimportant, nor am I saying I'm vehemently opposed to doing this.  I just feel the two are pro forma equivalents in that they both produce the same results for any particularly defined roll whether the player pushes the button or the GM does. To wit:  a random result in the domain specified by the dice= portion of the roller's command, said result being hidden from the player's sight.

quote:
Additionally, since a GM secret roll is entirely hidden, with no record that it was even made visible to the player he was rolling for, a bad spell on the roller can leave players thinking, "Gee!  Another 1.  Is he really rolling, or is he just telling me that he is, and auto-failing my skill checks?"


With the Blind Roll as narrowly defined, the player would be blind to the actual result, anyway, so where's the verify-ability?  (I mean, unless the "reveal" option is implemented...)  Am I missing something here?

Sequences of low numbers can occur, just like sequences of high numbers can, and there are all sorts of gamer superstitions about this sort of thing.  (I've actually seen someone use salt and sage smoke to "purify" their dice(!), but I digress...)  If the player can't trust the GM to be honest about it, why even play?

Let's switch gears for a bit:  Technically speaking, what sort of coding would be needed to implement such a feature?  If the coding is trivial, why not?  On the other hand, if the desired feature set (I'm thinking the "reveal later" function) makes it an unwieldy task that turns our dice roller into a kludge, well...
biscuit
 member, 25 posts
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 13:29
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
horus:
<quote>


Let's switch gears for a bit:  Technically speaking, what sort of coding would be needed to implement such a feature?  If the coding is trivial, why not?  On the other hand, if the desired feature set (I'm thinking the "reveal later" function) makes it an unwieldy task that turns our dice roller into a kludge, well...


1 Update UI to add the hidden option
2 When hidden option is taken treat as DM secret, with flag
3 Just use the same code that you'd use for the clear some rolls, but make it show some rolls, and turn the hidden flag to secret so the player can see their roll.
Skald
 moderator, 803 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 14:25
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
I do like the idea of having both Blind and Secret options, thank ye LonePaladin.

That works well for the reveal too - if the player ticked Secret as well as Blind, then when it is Revealed the Secret flag will hide it from any but GM and the player themselves.  If you just have Blind without Secret, then if/when the GM reveals it, then it is visible to all.
Utsukushi
 member, 1438 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 20:34
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
Revealing feels tricky to me, but like an interesting option to have.  We don't have anything, so far, that can change things in the Dice Log after they happen, and I assume that's because the Dice Log is, like, super simple.  Perhaps even some kind of... text file.  Or primitive stone carving.  I don't know.  But if that can be done, yes, I think it would be cool.

Horus, no, I don't think you're missing anything.  But as a player, that "sense of ownership", even if it still doesn't actually stop the GM from just lying... Skald is absolutely right about the psychological tension this could create.  When you know the dice have been rolled, it just goes in your head differently.  A GM Secret roll, the players don't even know happened... which has its place, but it's a different place.

It's also worth noting that when a GM links a Secret Roll to a character, the player does see the roll.  This would presumably also mean that the GM could make a Blind Roll connected to a character that would then show in the log that a roll had been made for that character, but not what it was.  And that feels different, too; like hearing the clatter of dice behind the Screen.  Sure, they might or might not be fudging the results, but it certainly feels more real than when they just say, "Nope, you failed," without any clatter.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15510 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 20:40
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
quote:
What it seems like is this gives the player more of a sense of ownership in the roll?

Pushing the button yourself is the online equivalent of blowing on the dice and always rolling them left handed, and with one eye closed.

quote:
I'm not saying that how the player feels about the roll is unimportant, nor am I saying I'm vehemently opposed to doing this.  I just feel the two are pro forma equivalents in that they both produce the same results for any particularly defined roll whether the player pushes the button or the GM does. To wit:  a random result in the domain specified by the dice= portion of the roller's command, said result being hidden from the player's sight.

It doesn't have to make any sense at all to you or to me, but it definitely makes sense to some players.  I have a player in one game who swears the dice will always give him the result he needs when he really needs it.  A secret roll by the GM wouldn't be the same.

I had another player who swore that if he rolled with blue dice, he got better results.  So we aren't dealing with logic in these cases.

So wile you might feel it would be the same, and logically it would be, to the players it wouldn't necessarily feel the same.
biscuit
 member, 26 posts
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 21:44
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
From a GM's point of view, I would prefer if something bad were to happen to the player, it would be their action, either in game or a bad roll. Or if a player fails a roll that it was the player who had control. To me, it gives the player more control over their fate.

And it can make a difference. Unlike real life, WHEN you roll the dice does make a difference, as the random number generator updates for each roll, so a roll made 10 minutes after a post, or one made 30 minutes afterwards would have different results, as the number of dice rolled in between affects the result.
horus
 member, 408 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 04:20
Re: Dice Roller - Blind Roll option
Thanks to all who replied to address my concerns.

Yeah, I'm aware of superstitions regarding dice, so if there is sufficient interest, why not?  The only thing missing is that immediate gratification from being able to actually see the result when rolled, and, who knows, maybe that's a good thing too?

I'm sold.  +1