matthewfenn
 member, 487 posts
 Magic the Gathering
 Spreadsheet Developer
Mon 30 Jul 2018
at 21:47
Thumbs up?
Personally, I'm somewhat abivilent.  "like" buttons cam have a detrimental effect too - especially for those who are perhaps less thick skinned than others...

   "Everyone in the group but Joey liked my post!  Joey must hate me!"

   "OMG! Sam likes every post I do - I think he might be obsessed with me!"


On the other hand, I would sometimes like the opportunity to genuinely show my appreciation for someone's writing, or getting the acknowledgement from others for a well crafted post...  In one of the games I used to run, I ran a system where people could give Kudos to others for good writing, which would in turn give in-game benefits - a kind of carrot to a) encourage good writing, and b) encourage mutual back-patting...

To be honest, it never really worked - I think over a 5 year period I had about 4 people actually congratulate others on the quality of their posts... and there were a bunch of good posts that were worth it, but rarely was anyone bothered / remembered to actually post in the Kudos thread...  A like button on the other hand would, as ionathas has suggested, be a much easier way of giving credit where credit is due...   I suspect my "con" argument is probably out-weighed by the "pro" of having an easy way of showing appreciation for others work...   I'm sure if someone started "liking" everything everyone posted, it would devalue their opinion, but that would probably be far and few between...

This message was last edited by the user at 21:54, Mon 30 July.

TookyG
 member, 89 posts
Mon 30 Jul 2018
at 22:52
Thumbs up?
I like the concept.  This could help in recognizing positive members of the community.

First, any such system has to apply to the account level, not the character level, because games are far too transient.

Second, there shouldn't be one like/kudo/thumbs-up button.  There should be categories to which such kudos apply.  For example, "Helpful," "Good writer," "Team player."

Third, these should be visible on the author sidebar.

Taken together, I think those things go a long way to spot lighting positive members.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1397 posts
Mon 30 Jul 2018
at 23:16
Thumbs up?
Paizo has a thumbs up mechanic, and it works out quite well.

Of course, in addition to a post showing it's likes, you see a list of all posts you liked and see a list of all who liked a particular post. Not sure how much that has affected use.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15621 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 02:56
Re: Thumbs up?
ionathas:
Again with the 'waste of time' thing from my perspective: I feel like sending a PM just because I like somebody's verbology is a tremendous waste of both my time and theirs, when I could just hit a button and show my approval in a way that takes less than two seconds for me to express and even less time than that for them to read.

The whole purpose of RPoL is communication via text.  If you feel that communicating via text is a waste of time, then why are you here?

Similarly, if you consider that writing something to tell somebody that a specific post was awesome would be a waste of time, then it just may be that the post wasn't really THAT awesome...

This message was last edited by the user at 03:02, Tue 31 July.

steelsmiter
 member, 1904 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 03:19
Re: Thumbs up?
ionathas:
But meh. Again with the 'waste of time' thing from my perspective: I feel like sending a PM just because I like somebody's verbology is a tremendous waste of both my time and theirs,

I don't know, I've found it useful to publically reward posts of a length and type of content that matches my preferences in OOC.
LordXenophon
 member, 18 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 03:25
Re: Thumbs up?
Compared to everything else currently used in RPoL, a Likes system would be rather script-heavy.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1399 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 04:00
Re: Thumbs up?
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 8):

I don't think it is a matter of "waste of time" but rather of effort.

As my mother is always saying, "Always organize things to be quick and easy to use/do, or you won't ever use/do them."

A likes system is quite in line with that. People see a post, they think "Oh cool!" A likes button is a just as easy to press, but a new post, takes more effort, enough so that by the time you are typing, the feeling of "Oh cool!" has usually worn off leaving much less motivation to post.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15622 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 13:35
Re: Thumbs up?
It's also worth noting that RPoL (or rather the site's owner and it's Moderators) have always very clearly stated that a system for rating, upvoting, liking, or generally expressing approval (or disapproval) of other users will never be added as an official part of this site.  If you want to tell somebody you liked what they posted, then actually tell them that, and maybe even take a few seconds to tell them why you liked it.

Here, for example:

The FAQs:
Will RPoL implement a public blacklist or kudos list, or some way to review games, players, and GMs on the site?

No.  There is no reasonable way to ensure that such a system is fair, or that every individual's unique situation is taken into account when others critique their performance.  While there is nothing to prevent individuals from keeping their own notes about which games and with whom they enjoy playing, RPoL will not implement any public system for doing so.
          /help/?t=faqs&page=frf

If you want to tell somebody you liked what they posted, then actually tell them that, and maybe even take a few seconds to tell them why you liked it.
ionathas
 member, 5 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 14:15
Re: Thumbs up?
In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 9):

Yeah, I actually do see PMing about this as a waste of time. Check it:
You're playing at the tabletop. Somebody says something that's cute or makes a cool reference. You give them a fist bump or a thumbs up or say 'Nice!'. If you're playing Savage Worlds, you toss them one of your Bennies.
You don't have to spend a paragraph establishing context, because you're right there, in-line, and everybody knows what you're talking about. You don't have to waste time explaining exactly what it was about the reference that you liked, because everybody was there and everybody saw it.
You just acknowledge a well-played moment. It takes literally two seconds, and then it's over and you can move on.

If someone changes my life with their mastery of English prose, I'm absolutely going to take the time to write out a post expressing my gratitude. But if somebody makes a subtle reference to Bleach, it's not worth making a big deal over. It made me smile--that's it. I appreciated their joke.

It's not a reflection on who they are as a person or even a user, so it shouldn't have anything to do with their user profile, IMHO. There's no need for a thumbs-down button--if I care enough about something somebody said that I'm going to take issue with it, you can bet I'll be posting about it.
But yeah, it'd be nice to be able to applaud a well-phrased post or a witty retort. That's my opinion, and I still stand by it.
Shannara
 moderator, 3790 posts
 Keep calm, drink more
 COFFEE!!!!
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 17:39
Re: Thumbs up?
Just thought I'd chime in my support for leaving RPoL one of the few bastions not needing to be any more like social media.

IF jase ever does add thumbs up / thumbs down buttons -- and if you're doing one, why not the other? -- it is my fervent hope that he will make it applicable on the game boards only and able to be turned on or off by the GMs of the game like any other game setting.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1400 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 18:08
Re: Thumbs up?
Personally, I don't mind the lack of a like button, but I do see value in it. I even use it sometimes on the Paizo boards. And I don't use social media at all.

A thumbs down button though, I'm not seeing any positive value in that. Not for a forum like this anyway. That's more of an art critique thing, and at that point, I'd rather see a star rating than a binary like/dislike.
evileeyore
 member, 102 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 18:28
Re: Thumbs up?
bigbadron:
It's also worth noting that RPoL (or rather the site's owner and it's Moderators) have always very clearly stated that a system for rating, upvoting, liking, or generally expressing approval (or disapproval) of other users will never be added as an official part of this site.

I am quite happy about that.

quote:
If you want to tell somebody you liked what they posted, then actually tell them that, and maybe even take a few seconds to tell them why you liked it.

Yup.  Takes less than a minute to properly express gratitude or happiness or mirth or whatever over a post.  I've seen and done it plenty of times in games I'm in.




ionathas:
Yeah, I actually do see PMing about this as a waste of time.

Then the post clearly wasn't worth your effort to reward.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1401 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 21:19
Re: Thumbs up?
Takes more than a minute, at least on phone with a not quote "2g" connection.
TookyG
 member, 91 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 22:27
Re: Thumbs up?
Shannara:
Just thought I'd chime in my support for leaving RPoL one of the few bastions not needing to be any more like social media.


Hmm, yes, that's a good point.  I retract my previous suggestion!
ionathas
 member, 6 posts
Tue 31 Jul 2018
at 22:53
Re: Thumbs up?
Shannara:
Just thought I'd chime in my support for leaving RPoL one of the few bastions not needing to be any more like social media.


Aw, come on. If we were the type of people that stuck our nose up at useful innovations just because they were innovative, we wouldn't have started doing play-by-post instead of tabletop roleplaying back in the 80s, would we have?

;) lol
Shannara
 moderator, 3791 posts
 Keep calm, drink more
 COFFEE!!!!
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 01:20
Re: Thumbs up?
I don't turn my nose up at useful innovations.
steelsmiter
 member, 1905 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 01:58
Re: Thumbs up?
Shannara:
I don't turn my nose up at useful innovations.

me neither.
ionathas
 member, 7 posts
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 02:12
Re: Thumbs up?
Shannara:
I don't turn my nose up at useful innovations.


Excellent!
I'll accept that iff you'll accept that I don't want RPoL to be anything like social media.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15624 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 02:23
Re: Thumbs up?
We'll accept that, if you'll accept that we have already said that we are not going to give you any kind of thumbs up button.  Ever.

Glad that's sorted out.
ionathas
 member, 8 posts
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 14:06
Re: Thumbs up?
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 23):

No worries. It just irks me when people demonize features based on where they come from, instead of discussing them based on their own merits.
If a body has an opinion, he or she should be able to articulate it without calling on base prejudices to support your position. Anything less is the enemy of rational argument.

As such, if more people find the feature pointless than find it helpful, then it's not worth spending time coding. It's just a suggestion.


Incidentally, based on my research, this is the best alternative I can find to the feature discussed:

  • You have to link the message:

link to a message in this forum

  • Then you have to quote the message (or part thereof) because the link doesn't actually tell you which message it links unless you copy-paste the link and read it for yourself:

From Message #17:
quote:
As far as using the colors in the sticky list... I think I would be for that.  [it took some getting used to the way it is currently, it would have been more intuitive probably from my perspective if it had used the color coding.


  • Then you have to put in your message:

Nice!

Am I getting that right? Is there an easier way to do it?

This message was last edited by the user at 14:19, Wed 01 Aug.

Shannara
 moderator, 3792 posts
 Keep calm, drink more
 COFFEE!!!!
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 15:01
Re: Thumbs up?
ionathas:
Am I getting that right? Is there an easier way to do it?


I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

To quote your message above, I used the [quote] link on your post and then removed all the stuff I wasn't addressing.

So if I wanted to compliment someone's post and make sure they knew which one I was complimenting, I'd use the quote link on the post, copy from the resulting screen, and paste into my rmail or copy into my reply in an OOC thread or PM.

Or, more likely, I'd just put '(Name of poster/character), nice post!' in the OOC thread of the game.

This message was last edited by the user at 15:02, Wed 01 Aug.

Utsukushi
 member, 1455 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 15:28
Re: Thumbs up?
quote:
Or, more likely, I'd just put '(Name of poster/character), nice post!' in the OOC thread of the game.

That's what I've always done.  And if I do want to quote a piece of the message, like a specific phrase I liked, I'll just copy-and-paste it in for the quote like... I did here.

Like I said when it was the Applause thing - on a massive, often far more public, site like G+ or Facebook, where it's often expected that hundreds or thousands of people might be looking at a post and potentially want to react to it (or at least feed their analytics data they can sell), I think it makes total sense to have a quick, non-cluttery way to do that.  But on RPoL you never have that.  There are a few games big enough that it might get irritating it everybody in the game wanted to compliment the same post, but that just seems... like... super niche.  In almost every game, it's no trouble at all if every single active participant in the game feels the need to chime in, because you're usually talking like 4-6 people.

I get where you're coming from, Ionathas.  Having an even simpler way than posting, "That was great!" might encourage people to say it even more often.  And moving to a more mobile responsive site does change the math on how valuable that is, quite honestly - that's super simple on a keyboard, but less convenient on a phone or tablet.  But as BBR has noted, if you're here to respond to anything, presumably you've overcome the "typing" obstacle somehow*.  That's what RPoL is.  So it doesn't really make sense to implement features, however innovative, designed to cater to people who aren't interested in typing.

And as it becomes more convenient, it also becomes a lot less meaningful when they do.  Honestly, if there was a "Thumbs Up" count, the people who wanted to know would have to constantly scroll back up through the threads to see how their old post was doing.  How many people would really do that?  As a question of `clutter', it seems like it's taking up screen space for something that, once the first week's novelty wears off, hardly anyone is even going to see anymore.


*-Frankly, my answer has always been to wait. I'll read stuff on my phone, but I only reply if it's, like, super important that I get this in fast.  Otherwise I'll just keep it in my head until I check in on a real computer again.  To be fair, though, I have a bit of a tendency to ramble.  I'm not sure anyone's noticed, but even simple things, like a quick footnote, I often have difficulty keeping short.  I don't know what it is.  Possibly something I should discuss with my therapist?  Maybe a succinct message murdered my parents when I was young, or something.  Anyway, yeah, I like to have a keyboard.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15625 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 15:51
Re: Thumbs up?
ionathas:
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 23):

No worries. It just irks me when people demonize features based on where they come from, instead of discussing them based on their own merits.

Just pointing out that you have requested a feature which has been requested before, and which has been turned down, in no uncertain terms, on each occasion.

It's also worth noting that your argument that posting a response to "applaud" another user is somehow less convenient than posting a response to disagree with what they said doesn't actually make any sense.  Both take exactly the same amount of effort (excluding the factor of how much text you put into your post).

Compare, "Well said!" with "Fruit you!"

This message was last edited by the user at 15:53, Wed 01 Aug.

ionathas
 member, 9 posts
Wed 1 Aug 2018
at 17:39
Re: Thumbs up?
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 27):

Yeah, I didn't notice the 'Applaud' thread when I did my initial search for this topic, and I'm starting to see why that one was called 'Applaud' instead of 'Thumbs Up'... there's apparently a lot less baggage associated with that word. And it doesn't immediately have supporters clamoring for a 'Thumbs Down' button, which I can't imagine coming to any good end.
But seeing as how there were 21 other posts on the topic in the past 2 days, it doesn't feel like it's not something worth revisiting every now and again.

Shannara in Msg #25:
To quote your message above, I used the [quote] link on your post and then removed all the stuff I wasn't addressing.

So if I wanted to compliment someone's post and make sure they knew which one I was complimenting, I'd use the quote link on the post, copy from the resulting screen, and paste into my rmail or copy into my reply in an OOC thread or PM.

Or, more likely, I'd just put '(Name of poster/character), nice post!' in the OOC thread of the game.


I see what you're saying, Shannara. It's still not as easy to post or read as having something on the same screen, though. You could just click the [applaud] link on the post instead of the [quote] link, and it'd save you several minutes of navigation, pasting, and editing. I dunno about you, but I treasure every minute I get on here, and I'd rather spend them roleplaying than formatting. :)

And thanks for the continued understanding, Utsukushi. (That's a nifty handle, BTW!) I don't usually bother trying to post on my mobile, but you're right, that would be a serious consideration, more so if the site ever does trend toward the mobile-friendly format.

So... thanks for the answers. :-D I had fun discussing it with you guys!
I think that's pretty much all I had to contribute on the subject.
horus
 member, 529 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 2 Aug 2018
at 08:08
Re: Thumbs up?
A custom on another forum I frequent goes something like this:

1.)  Someone posts something useful, insightful, funny, etc.

2.)  Someone else replies simply:  +1 (expressing agreement/liking) or -1 (for disagreement/disliking).  I've even seen the occasional 0 (neutrality/meh).

This would seem to work for Fate or other in-game purposes without chewing up excessive bandwidth or time.  It wouldn't be beyond the pale to append a short message with whatever signal is chosen.