Okay, here's the place to discuss how I can improve Theogenesis: Dust. Suggestions, criticisms, praise, etc. is all more than welcome here, and I'll respond and figure out a list of priorities I need to tackle. There might be
Degree rewards for those especially helpful :D

Well the only thing I can say I would like is more accessible quests. I love the fact that the characters can kind of make their own quests, but to have some 'here's a quest that you could possible go on and get this' is a good thing too.

I will say some more palpable npcs are fun too.

Praise, the fact that you let the theo-verse such a living thing and allow the players to keep using their creativity to add on to it is amazing.

Honestly I would love to be a GM at some point (although this time I would not play a character or would play some kind of throw-away character. I don't want a repeat of the original theogenesis when I let my self-centeredness get in the way of my actual GMness.)

As always love ya, your the best and I will be sending in the first chapter of that story soon. Truth be told I have my own things to do.

P.S. I hate doing this, but ruse you are the amazing 'bother them until they get off their ass and do it.' mother hen. Get on me to get the first chapter done in the IC story I'm doing for theo.

P.S.S. if you want to know what it's about it's the story of foun's daughter, but it's all just a story basically a ooc goodie for you guys I asked nat if I could do.

High gods get shafted once they ascend. Other gods lose their banes and keep their boons- for most, an additional degree. High-gods lose their weapons, keep their sucky temple-realms, and have only the Methodes Gate to make them feel warmer inside. I suggest either 1. Let them keep their weapons or 2. Expand their realm upon ascension.


Council-people seem to not have anything better to do than hang around us.


I'd like to some more diversity in the NPCs, age-wise. I want to see baby callisti, damnit.  Or little systemarchi.


Whatever happened to Artosians? They are mentioned twice in the rules and described as Type-1 species but aren't one of the Ten.


Maybe this is just me, but I have so many titles that I just count how many LINES of titles I have as a way to gauge my awesomeness. At five lines now, it's getting a tad unwieldy. A 'main' title would nice, like Wyrn and Osiris-Ra and such have. That would be something you'd know right off the bat once you found out someones identity, instead of suddenly knowing two dozen titles.

In the rules (character creation) it still says you only need one degree per level in anything, though you've changed that. Quote:
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c. You now have two free Degrees to spend. You may spend these on:

i. Upgrade: Naturally, you may spend one Degree to go up a Degree in an attribute. It will cost one Degree will get you from Fragile to Slight in Combat Skill, for example, or two from Fragile to Slight to Adequate. Each step costs only one Degree: the price for upgrading does not get higher.
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This message was last edited by the player at 13:11, Sat 15 May 2010.

Foun

Thanks for the praise, Foun.

I've actually been toying with adding a Quest Bar to the Records. Not with progress or anything, but just as a general indicator, you know? But I'm still really not sure. What do you think?

I love you too, mate, and I demand that chapter. ;)

Max

Thanks for the response, Max.

1. You're absolutely right. High Gods do get shafted. I'm working right now on fixing that. I'm thinking of either turning their Realms into miniature worlds - so basically secluded and cut-off from the rest of the Realm Supernatural, yet self-contained, giving them a more potent Nrictus Gate (allowing travel through time and space), or allowing them to keep the weapon and giving them another. Thoughts?

2. Councilmen have lots of stuff to do. Remember, they have paradoxes as well. And in their defense, they don't spend ALL their time around you guys. It's just that by nature the PC's are the center of the story so the NPC's gravitate in that direction.

3. Diversity? Sure. I'll work on that.

4. Okay, as for the Artosians? I was TEMPTED to bullshit-GM and make up some stupid excuse or in-game plot but the reality is I have no idea. I was name-dropping before I properly unified the Ten Species. I think they might have had some sort of emotion-manipulation ability. Or something. What do you think?

5. Main title, huh? Your wish is my command. MAIN TITLES are now shown by the Coloured Bold in the records. If anyone has a cooler idea for their title - most are simple placeholders as I wait for better suggestions - post them in this thread and I'll happily change them. There will be no changing wishy-washy however. Make a solid decision.

6. Hmmm, in regards to character creation that's true. I'll fix that. Thanks for the heads up, kid.

ALL

Come on guys, don't be shy. I really want these suggestions. I'm working on the assessments. Tell me what you think. Ruse, since when have you not been vocal? And what happened to our casual chat thread? :D

Progress Total

Done

1. Fixed Character Creation
2. Added Main Titles

In Progress

1. High God/Ascension Reboot
2. Figure out Artosians

Considering

1. Maybe a Quest Bar?

1. There's nothing in the rules about Souls other than as a listing as currency, and conclave law banning the use of souls that aren't yours. Nothing about their properties, thier nature, how fast you gain them, what affects the influx, and what have you. Every other Theogenesis devotes at least a paragraph to this. I noticed that a High God gains more servants over time, but if they lose all of them they don't seem to get any back.. and it can't be because of reproduction, because they were all female to begin with. You said in IM that they 'appear' from time to time, or come from somewhere else.
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1. The simplest way to balance the High Gods would be to allow their Armaments to continue to gain power after they Ascend, with each increase in Divine Rank/Raw Power/etc, perhaps with additional special capabilities based on which ascension they chose. As for expanding the realm, Path of Mercy gods could have an optional quest they could perform for Yggdrasil in order for the realm the be expanded, while Path of Mildness gods gain a bountiful realm anyway and Path of Severity gods get a new realm/broken world so it's not exactly necessary.

2. I thought Paradox was a divine-only ability. Are you saying all species can do that? Ex, Roid? EQUIBRILLUM can pretty much do whatever she wants, but she can she naturally paradox as well?

3. You've already got old people down :P

4. Well, their not considered one of the Ten. The first thing to do is figure what world they were from. Realm of Anvils sounds best to me. Systemarch were the first species to join the Conclave, so the reason they aren't one of the tend is easy to understand- it might be seen as a political snub to the Systemarchs if another species from the Realm of Anvils was also acknowledged as one of the Ten. Systemarchs are crafters of physical things- their Attainments- while Artosians could be crafters of other arts- painting, stories, performance. Their names could go like "Mikhail, (Role) of (Masterwork)"  Where (Role) could be Author and (Masterwork) could, for example, be The Shining. They would change over time, reflecting whatever there very best piece was. Besides the Masterwork, I would think they would stupendous masters of illusion. Perhaps an inherent ability to affect other's perception of reality?

5-6. AWESOME.

And I would appreciate a Quest Bar.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:24, Sun 16 May 2010.

Alright Nat, you asked for my vocality, so you'll get it. A whole lot of it! Who am I to turn down degree percentage, especially when I can earn it by bitching and nagging? It's like a dream come true! :P

1.) I disagree with what Max said about titles. I loooooooooooooooooove the title system. I adore my huge block of text with all the titles I've been accruing like they'e pokemon. Gotta collect them all!

But in all seriousness, the title system is one of the most elegant and simple ways of appeasing the players' egos. It sure appeases me, and I have high standards a lot of the time. Really, a title is a neat thing that strokes someone's ego, while requiring the GM to ultimately give them absolutely nothing for their effort! It's brilliant!

Also, to me, each title earned carries either an ooc or IC or ooc/ic story behind it. While titles are amazing ego-stroking handouts that cost Nat absolutely nothing, they also stroke the ego even more as they act as a sort of library of interesting accomplishments and facts about a character. Like ruse has the liar most noble title, which pretty much sums up his approach for getting things done as he mixes the treachery of the mist domain the with the arrogant nobless oblige of the mistella. Desafon has a merchant of the fine woods title, to reflect a really profitable sale he made at the early stage of his character's growth that really earned him a lot of stones.

So, yes...I am adamantly opposed to doing away with the title system. I don't think I could handle not being able to have my ego stroked by a huge block of bolded black text with all my titles in it! :P

2.) I feel sometimes things move very fast. As in a lot happens at once and I cannot accomplish all of my goals at the time I make them, as when I get the time to address one issue another pops up. While this isn't completely bad, it does make it frantic as I try to catch up on stuff or have to drop other goals by the wayside. I still have stuff from the plague arc that I need to check out still, lol! But I can't since dealing with Ruse's magi-cancer is a bit more important if only in its immediacy. On the plus side, at least the assassin doesn't want to kill ruse anymore, but the reason is pathetic, ha ha.

3.) I do not have a problem with how the councilors are interacting with us. Someone like Ruse would naturally interact with them as a high lord, although people like Roid and Wyrn are starting to learn that Ruse is a very special person indeed even for a high lord, so keep your friends close and enemies closer...that sort of thing.

But even for other players, occasional councilor interaction - even if it is Lictros style get out of my way you worm type interaction, is beneficial as PC's are the main stars of the game. Of course, an associate or low lord shouldn't be rubbing elbows with them constantly (Ruse has many reasons why he was an exception, especially for Roid), but occasional exposure is good. Especially when people do things like Anik making his crystal batteries that are very interesting.

I guess what I'm saying is that in normal cases (so excluding your weirdos like max and ruse), that I wouldn't have any more councilor on player action then we do now, but the current fluctuating interaction level is fine.

4.) Nat and I are working on how templates transition over into acension paths. What we did agree on is that ascension paths are essentially really, really big god templates. We also agreed that a god can only ever have one template at a time. Thus, when one gains an ascension path that overwrites their god template. This is, coincidentally, also why the degree cap limit is lifted upon ascending.

For god templates that give a degree, like the +1 combat skill degree for a vicious god, and so on...we agreed that the degree is kept when a god ascends even if they are no longer a vicious god anymore. This is because the degree is a part of them and it is sort of like residual "junk DNA" from when they were lesser beings. Mad gods keep their template and gain the ascension because the template is kept as part of an ascnsion path ability, so let's exclude that from discussion. This only leaves high gods and reborn gods.

Reborn gods get shafted in that they don't have an extra degree they keep when ascending like a vicious or sane god would. However, the payoff is that there is zero risk in them ever meeting final death. While dying sucks for them, they can technically - at least in theory - survive long enough to ascend. But for other gods, 4th strike and you're gone for good. It is like taking a CD over a stock market: low risk but low pay out. With other god templates like zealous or vicious, the payout is greater but the risk of final death is much higher.

High gods are weird because they get their armament. However, I'd like to state that turning a high god's temple into a free-floating world is, in my opinion, VASTLY overpowered and is an over-extreme reaction to them having a smaller sized temple-realm. You don't fix a problem by over-reacting to it and causing an opposite but equal new problem. Spheres are gained only by path of mildness folks normally, and the master of fragments path of course too.

Instead, you technically would handle a high god like you would a reborn god: remove all their benefits and in exchange overwrite them with their ascension path. However, they would still have the temple-sized realm. You either would have to:

a.) say well tough luck, that's what you get for being high god.
b.) cause their temple to sprout into a full sized god-realm
c.) keep their temple the same size but allow them to keep a benefit.

I am against giving high gods expanded capabilities for ascending just for being high gods. Those capabilities should be earned by the ascension path, not as a hand-out.

Here is my suggested fix:

High god--->Ascends

When a high god ascends, they gain one of two options:

Option A: Lose their automatic methodes gate and their divine armament, but their temple-realm expands into a normal 5-province godrealm.

Option B: Keep their temple-realm, but in exchange may keep their methodes gate and their high god armament. HOWEVER, the armament does NOT increase in power after the 5th degree of divinity. Once a high god becomes a master it is at full power. Ascension divinity degrees are incompatible with the armament.

Design note: It would be rigged and - quite frankly - against my original design intent to let a high god armament gain power from ascension divinity degrees. I designed the high god to be balanced with the +1 degree that most other god templates grant. My thinking is the methodes gate offsets the temple realm, and the divine armament is equal to +1 degree, making it a potent artifact indeed but not a "push here to kill everything" button. This is, equally, balanced only at the non-ascended level.

So for someone like Max, option B is probably best. Even if the sword doesn't power up past masterhood, that and a methodes gate are still worth a temple sized realm.

5.) NAT READ THIS! We need your completed assessments. With Chalybis gone, you are the only one whose scores will offset mine to determine the contest winners.

6.) Nat, our private thread chats have been...slowed down because I want you to have time to focus on updates and especially assessments. We've really got to get those in. I should get a degree and a title for being a prompt judge or something. And/or maybe my epic-level nagging. :)

7.) A baby callist or child systemarch would be kind of neat, lol.

8.) That's it for now. I gave you many suggestions for improvement in our various private thread discussions, and have been helping you improve things from the shadows all Jafar style.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:09, Sun 16 May 2010.

The problem is that the item isn't just a power- it's a physical ITEM. Severing the connection still leaves the item, and since most of these items are sentient it would be their choice whether or not to stick with the High God.

And what about Path of Mildness/Path of Self?  Why would they lose such a personal item in the process?

Also, I agree with 2., in it's entirety.

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I didn't say remove the titles, I just wanted a main title to use :P And we have them now! So I'm happy.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:06, Sun 16 May 2010.

Just to toss my 2 cents about the High God Ascension stuff, a large part of Ascension seems to be the stripping of previous benefits and penalties from the gods. The trouble is how different the High God's stuff is. Their realm is different, but they have their own benefits and penalties. Since this point has already been addressed in the rules, we don't really need to debate it, unless someone feels the balance is off as the realms advance. The weapon is a much trickier subject.

Every other god type has their advantage made meaningless by Ascending. (Except Returned who have an extra Forsaken power, but that's special anyways. Plus, path of self does that.) But they also don't have it taken away. Wherein lies the problem with an artifact weapon tied to the god's soul. How do you make something game-altering suddenly meaningless, without just taking it away?

One way might be to allow all ascended access (through payment of spheres or a quest or whatever) to some powerful artifact which is in line with it's power. But that approach just makes everyone else more powerful in order to negate a High God's benefit.

I'm going to have to leave this argument unfinished, because I frankly don't know the power scale we're dealing with. I vaguely know the power level of the artifact, but I honestly have no clue if it's actually a problem to just cap it at rank 5 and know that everything else the gods do at that point are far more powerful and unbalancing than one minor artifact, or if it is something that needs to be fixed.

I do think that continuing to have it advance shouldn't happen automatically, as that would just give the High God a benefit beyond what any others might achieve. Personally, were I a High God, I'd have that be my offering to the Alien Tree, have it left with Dirje, or have it destroyed with the realm for the Path of Severity. Then again, that's a very noble game-balance sentiment, and who knows if I'd be so cavalier about it were I really a High God on the cusp of Ascension.

The high god armament is not just a mere item. These are physical manifestations of your divinity - essentially magic items that are holistically grafted to your theogenic field by yggdrasil. Like how a zealous god has more of a connection to yggdrasil than other gods (barring the mercy folks of course). It is an extension of your godliness much more than it is an item.

When you ascend, your template is overwritten. If you choose to part with the armament, it doesn't just remain...no, it vanishes all together or, at the most, becomes a completely mundane item with no supernatural power. It would lose its sentience.

Mechanically, the armament is worth approximately a single +1 degree, up to and including at masterhood level. However, this balance breaks down when ascension degrees start boosting its capabilities since ascension degrees are worth much more than non-ascended degrees. Basically, over time it becomes more than a +1 degree benefit, while other gods besides reborn only ultimately ever keep their benefit at +1.

If this concerns you greatly, you can certainly opt to have your master sword merge with the sacrament you gain from being a lord of creation. However, this mechanically wouldn't have any benefits beyond a 5th degree divinity armament - it would be for fluff flavor purposes, but that should be okay with you. If you'd like to improve it beyond the masterhood level, you'll have to spend sacrament powers on it. but then again, having it be your sacrament would in and of itself almost act like an armament expansion for you, even if it is just in terms of flavor. But that could get you what you want while still not giving you more than a +1 degree benefit from your god template benefit.

I would oppose anything else.

A high god armament, as I designed them to be initially, should itself be approximately a full degree worth of potency, whatever that means.

This is why I am opposed to allowing them to grow after 5th degree divinity, as after that point gaining further benefits makes them work 1 point whatever degrees, while everyone else keeps just their +1 degree benefit.

Er, Ruse. My sword existed before I did. It was crafted by the old Anik. I'm the only High God that's really played much at all, so I only have my own experience to go off of.

The problem with that is that I am, as you said, a very strange goddess.

OK - two falacies people seem to be assuming about the whole High God Path.

1) The High God's realm is only a temple.  It isn't.  The only livable bit is the temple but there is an entire realm out there.  The High God has a five province realm already.

2) The High God can't get a people.  He can.  It specifically says he can in the bit about High Gods he just needs to quest for them and they won't be wholy his.

So post ascension the ONLY thing I would change is to allow the High God to take a people to himself and make them wholy his.  Cap the item at 5 but just give that ability and the whole problem goes away.  That removes the sole limit on being a high god and actually makes them stronger as they get the temple upgrades and a people but it requires more work.

Bane: The High God starts off with a Temple surrounded by rugged, uninhabitable landscape. The Temple itself is as vast as any palace, but it is not even close to the size of a full Realm, and the God has only a small contingent of followers to do his bidding. He must find more followers in other worlds.

What evidence have you that High Gods have full, five-province realms? You are contradicting the Word of Nat.

Ok, based on all that's been written so far, I'm going to suggest the High God Armament just be capped at level 5. Having it continue to advance would just unbalance things for everyone else, as it would add more benefits beyond anything the ascension paths give. If there is serious concern about it's balance on the game, I'd suggest the item be part of the required sacrifice for ascending, which is all under the control of the GM anyways.

The realm is already dealt with in Ascension rules, as each Realm level above 5th continues to have a separate High God paragraph at the bottom.

I will think about other things, and post when I have some coherent thoughts on how to improve the game.

I agree with Hirsu, he brings up a valid point with the Realm level rules.

I'm really glad other people are agreeing that the armament needs to be capped at 5th degree. When I designed them, it only had pre-ascension in mind. This is because ascension paths trump god templates.

The armament, while important to the character, is not the most important thing and is eclipsed by the ascension. This is also why it needs to stop growing at 5th degree and just let ascension take the spotlight.

And yes, my suggested fix is option b from my big post, which is let the high god keep their boon and bane but cap it at 5th degree.

Max - you didn't even bother to read what you posted.

Bane: The High God starts off with a Temple surrounded by rugged, uninhabitable landscape. The Temple itself is as vast as any palace, but it is not even close to the size of a full Realm, and the God has only a small contingent of followers to do his bidding. He must find more followers in other worlds.

The temple is not the size of a full realm - we agree on that.  Why are you assuming that the rugged uninhabitable landscape doesn't make up the remaining four provinces?  Why should it be smaller than a full realm?  You can affect it as any other god can - you want to bring it to life I can only assume Nat would let you if you work for it.

-> So essentially High Gods stay how they are, with the option of expanding their realm through substantial effort.

Is that the consensus?

Also, I live in a sky-temple. There can't possibly be anything else.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:33, Sun 16 May 2010.

High gods aren't meant to have big realms. That is the pay off you get for methodes gates and armaments.

It's also a balancing limitation, like a Returned God not being able to reach the fifth degree of Realm. Which is removed on Ascension, without effort on their part. So, a high god can go on a quest to expand their realm, much like a god would do if there realm's seed was destroyed.

Then you'd have to lose your methodes portal and gain it the normal way. The portal is definitly the offsetter for the temple. The armament is more the +1 degree.