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01:18, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

Military: Naval.

Posted by BrygunFor group 0
Aethulred
player, 4 posts
Fri 30 Sep 2016
at 20:48
  • msg #19

Re: Military: Naval

Or just use fans to create forced air like modern ships do...
Brygun
GM, 254 posts
Sat 1 Oct 2016
at 06:37
  • msg #20

Re: Military: Naval

*nods*

For airships it is easy to mixup the wording on fans vs propellers. Since propellers look like fans.

Consider that a burning based propulsion such as steam engine boilers, car gasoline engines, ship diesel or ship combined disiel or gas CODOG (IIRC the short form) will need oxygen to the combustion chamber. A lot of it.

We are easily drawn on the sight of ship to the tall funnels acting as smoke stacks belching out smoke. In a properly managed less than max capacity burning they do try to control the smoke as it is the first thing spotted, but I digress.

There are also intakes. Huge intakes. They may appear on the sides of a water ship as vertical grills.

I believe the Ventilators those upside down L or is you prefer P shaped intakes are often for providing air to the crew/passengers. On wet ships the lower decks are all closed up or the water would come in. Those ventilators shield the intake fans from spray, rain et al other elements.

I often prefer airships that can water land. Though it adds a level of complexity to the design.

A air-land only airship could indeed have ventilation done in a variety of ways. It could have vertical intakes on the sides. You probably would need something as your ship's armor isn't kind on air flow.

Each intake, or funnel, is also a hole in the armor. For ship funnels later WW2 designs would have zig zags coming up form the boiler. This was so a shell or bomb couldn't just fall straight down to explode on the bottom hull. This was more common as airplanes dropping bombs was more of a risk. One could expect if airships are around it could be something being done for wet-ships.

I related the need for the zig zag funnels in a way to torpedo protection. Until submarine attacks even existed the ships didn't have much need for such protection. In WW1 (one) the battleships or rather dreadnaughts and predreadnaughts were built decades before major submarine use. So they didnt really have any or perhaps weak torpedo protection. (Floating mines were known but not anywhere as WW2 torpedo defenses). So when you introduce the new weapon submarines the before-protection ships suffered battle. Various accounts of WW1 subs sinking battleships and cruisers. One early U-boat attack IIRC sunk 3 British capital ships in one engagement.

(Actually one of the reason for the triple kill was submarines were so new ships 2 and 3 may have thought ship 1 hit a stray mine. So they thought it was safe to stop to help. Once stopped it was easy for the Uboat to hit ship 2. Ship 3 was figuring much the same now with the urgency of so many more friends drowning that it too stopped for rescue and was sunk. Sadly, leaving no ships for rescue.)
Garrat
player, 20 posts
Sat 1 Oct 2016
at 09:56
  • msg #21

Re: Military: Naval

Brygun:
*nods*

Each intake, or funnel, is also a hole in the armor. For ship funnels later WW2 designs would have zig zags coming up form the boiler. This was so a shell or bomb couldn't just fall straight down to explode on the bottom hull.


  I guess they didn't have them a long time ago in a Galaxy far, far away or "A new hope" would have ended completely different.
Aethulred
player, 5 posts
Sat 1 Oct 2016
at 20:28
  • msg #22

Re: Military: Naval

Not really Zig-Zags ... but heavy thick plates (15-18" thick) with large (6" perhaps) holes allowing the smoke/gasses to pass
Brygun
GM, 255 posts
Sun 2 Oct 2016
at 07:30
  • msg #23

Re: Military: Naval

By late World War 2 there were collecting designs were two boiler rooms fed up to a single funnel. The funnel was in the middle thus at least one (or both) boiler room(s) could only be reached by a zig zag. Again, time period is something to consider. That though was in relation to the emergence of airplanes. There were of course also the guard plates Aethulred describes.

Example US Cleveland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...echnical_drawing.png

Example IJN Mogami
https://goo.gl/images/y3PVb8
Bonus, showing it in its hybrid carrier variant
Aethulred
player, 6 posts
Mon 3 Oct 2016
at 01:19
  • msg #24

Re: Military: Naval

Those are just to adapt the location of he machinery to convenient locations on deck ... the fore funnel in your example would be just about perfect for  a Dive bombers bomb to travel down unimpeded. I have an example of what I describe... but am not sure how to attach it...
Brygun
GM, 256 posts
Mon 3 Oct 2016
at 14:11
  • msg #25

Re: Military: Naval

It does mean at least one funnel was zig zagged. The in funnel armor, the plates you mention, were one part of the defense.

There are some limitations to position shifting and to the defense plates. Afterall the exhaust needs to go through too.

I recall reading on the internet a battleship armor discussion which included discussing whether the armor plate in a funnel was thick enough and angled enough to protect against X size shells.

Getting back to airships though the funnels don't have to be on the top. Even in the wet navies their are carriers, especially among the Japanese, which were built to have the funnels vent off the sides.  More to do with needing the deck space for the planes.

One point though remains that the more a threat of air and bomb attacks the more a design would find it useful to prepare for that.

1889 for instance has air ships presented in just 1-2 generations of design so many have a boat like feel with straight stacks. The game mechanics don't have the detail for angle of entry on a funnel. Also a world setting may wish to have boat shapes and straight funnels as part of their art work style.
helvorn
player, 26 posts
Fri 7 Oct 2016
at 06:27
  • msg #26

Re: Military: Naval

Also venting the funnels to the sides would result in less air turbulence over the flight deck.
Garrat
player, 21 posts
Sat 8 Oct 2016
at 03:49
  • msg #27

Re: Military: Naval

   We seriously need an air ship RPG splitting a world of designs into various cultures that have various design advantages and flaws.  The exhaust port set up could easily play a big part of this.  For instance a coal burning ship would more likely have the stacks off the top so the cinders wouldn't get in the eyes of the deck crew, where as a hydrogen fuel cell would likely be off the side or bottom so the water vapor would run out of the pipe rather than pooling in the pipes to cause corrosion.

   I could do writing and designing but don't have the time for GMing.
Brygun
GM, 258 posts
Tue 18 Oct 2016
at 06:02
  • msg #28

Re: Military: Naval

That would be a bit of work. There really hasn't been one I would say did airships at high detail. Space 1889 is a lot of fun and I've done detailed designs knowing much of that wouldn't matter in the simple game mechanics. For table top games simple is important to be able to play through. The more number crunching the less story can be played through. Computer games have covered it again at varying levels of detail.

Radically different propulsion really hasn't often shown up. Generally each navy has about the same method of getting around.

Space 1889 did have Germans using Zepplins and a Zepplin + helicopter design while the other powers used liftwood (1889's magic-onimum).
Garrat
player, 22 posts
Sun 30 Oct 2016
at 09:05
  • msg #29

Re: Military: Naval

   Fantasy fuel cells are great, but they need a draw back.  Just like nuclear energy.


   That being said nuclear energy is not an impossible concept.  I've stayed overnight on the first sub design to be nuclear powered.  The USS blueback parked at Oregon's museum of science and industry.  Her sister ship, the scorpion was nuclear, and went down all hands on board somewhere in the depths of the Pacific.  My ex boss was chief engineer on her retiring before the accident.  He told me a nuclear reactor could be built the size of a large office desk.  Concepts of the design could easily be translated to a magical fuel source, adding depth and complexity to the airship concept.
Brygun
GM, 262 posts
Sun 30 Oct 2016
at 10:21
  • msg #30

Re: Military: Naval

Was it the movie Steam Boy that had them using a 'magical' Steam Ball for propulsion?

I actually suggested the mentally different villain-like character had actually had a 'magic' moment when exposed to its 'pure steam'.




The funny thing is that nuclear reactors ARE steam engines!

They just don't use coal for power. Rather the heat from the nuclear interactions of purified radioactive materials.

Nuclear power comes down to a few points...
= the nuclear material that generates heat,
= a control method like control rods that can stop the heat generation
= a system for during the heat into mechanical motion, which is steam

So yeah, totally could see a desk sized nuclear reactor. It would have a lower power output but still viable. If you have some magic-onium or plot-ite to generate heat then everything else can go Steam punk. You just don't need to carry the huge tonnage of coal.
Aethulred
player, 7 posts
Sun 30 Oct 2016
at 20:30
  • msg #31

Re: Military: Naval

Magic itself can create a long term burning flame... just imbue something with it... and of course, the Mages guild has to enchant it back to full power every x hours. A non-forced flame would heat a boiler slowly, but once heated, it should provide several hundred horsepower for a period of hours, depending on how well it's charged by the mages.
helvorn
player, 27 posts
Mon 31 Oct 2016
at 05:56
  • msg #32

Re: Military: Naval

If you have magic then summon and bind a fire elemental for your steam engine.  You could open a portal to a colder world/universe to cool your steam exhaust and your airship would be in business.  Of course you could also summon an air elemental and have it propel you directly.
Brygun
GM, 263 posts
Mon 31 Oct 2016
at 06:13
  • msg #33

Re: Military: Naval

Ah this reminds me now of a rather Halloween-y adventure. We were playing Call of Cuthulu and I as the GM. The adventurers were the odd members onboard a tramp freighter as it went from port to port. A Professor of the Occult had hired them. From time to time he would attempt rituals inside the hold of the ship.

One day they found that some of the ship-crew had been killed. One was the Stoker Albert. Hey had found his head on the upper deck. His body...

... was stoking the boiler with an octopus in place of the head. It continued to tend the fire as an undead Zombie Stoker.

Pity the players didn't like that. I thought it would have been rather beneficial to the ship's personnel expense.
helvorn
player, 28 posts
Mon 31 Oct 2016
at 06:15
  • msg #34

Re: Military: Naval

I like that!  As well as expense I'd imagine that he'd work around the clock which is helpful on a ship.  :)
Brygun
GM, 264 posts
Mon 31 Oct 2016
at 06:42
  • msg #35

Re: Military: Naval

*Zombie voice echos through ship*

Coooooaaaaal. Coal. Coooaaaaal. Coal.


What's so creepy about that? :-P
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:42, Mon 31 Oct 2016.
helvorn
player, 29 posts
Mon 31 Oct 2016
at 07:06
  • msg #36

Re: Military: Naval

Hmmm... I hear nothing, nothing!  :)
Garrat
player, 23 posts
Sun 6 Nov 2016
at 07:30
  • msg #37

Re: Military: Naval

Aethulred:
Magic itself can create a long term burning flame... just imbue something with it... and of course, the Mages guild has to enchant it back to full power every x hours. A non-forced flame would heat a boiler slowly, but once heated, it should provide several hundred horsepower for a period of hours, depending on how well it's charged by the mages.

sounds like a very specific universe your referring to here.  Care to share?
Aethulred
player, 8 posts
Sun 6 Nov 2016
at 16:11
  • msg #38

Re: Military: Naval

GURPS 4e ...
Brygun
player, 276 posts
Fri 7 Jul 2017
at 22:25
  • msg #39

Re: Military: Naval

Zepplins pros and cons

Those wonderful floating bags of awesome science and plot hooks presented here with sets of pros and cons.

Pro:
They will float without using (much) energy

Con:
The explode if made with Hydrogen





Pro:
They fly very far on only a little fuel making them fuel efficient transport. Airships only have air resistance to overcome where as ships have much more friction with water plus various wave affects.


Con:
They fly pretty slow compared to planes. Depending on design some fast boats/ships might keep pace with slower airships.

In crossing the Atlantic you start to need a lot more food and water on board to feed everyone. This cuts down on the economy of mass and endurance.





Pro:
They can go anywhere, over the ocean and as far inland as you want.

Con:
Actual landings and take offs proved to be challenging. Like deadly challenging. The USA carrier Zeppelin killed a few airmen on her landing ropes when she suddenly floated hundreds of feet into the air and their arms couldn't hold on anymore.

The man Zeppelin built a special hanger for building, launch and recovery. It was on a lake. It rotated to point with the wind. This avoided the cross winds problem which at slow landing speeds is quite difficult.

The Empire State Building of New York and King Kong fame was in part built as a Zeppelin landing station. The airship could approach the pillar from any angle. The angle of course needed being inline with the wind at that moment.
helvorn
player, 30 posts
Fri 7 Jul 2017
at 23:39
  • msg #40

Re: Military: Naval

Don't forget the US Navy airship that crashed in the 30's off the coast of California.

IIRC the air currents around the Empire State building were so bad that an airship could not dock there.

I'd think you'd have to go with helium as a lifting gas for general safety.  What if you could evacuate the entire volume of the airship to vacuum and use that as a lifting source?

I'd think they would be great for heavy lift of cargo but ships are just so much cheaper.
Aethulred
player, 16 posts
Sat 8 Jul 2017
at 02:08
  • msg #41

Re: Military: Naval

Weather is also a serious concern. Zeppelins cannot climb over storms and can be totally unmanageable in one. The wind may exceed the Zeppelins forward speed too! They are mostly a fair weather craft ... radar or a very good reporting system would help alleviate some of this.
They normally carry a large water ballast which is used or released as needed by gas seeping through the bags. they are normally good for a week or two, depending on the design. Lastly, as alluded to, they can only find shelter in a few specific locations and can't really just land, although with a calm wind, they maybe able to touch down for a short period (minutes to perhaps an hour or so). Some of these limitations can be aided by carrying a fixed wing aircraft or two ... perhaps even an Autogyro or helicopter on the top, with an elevator ... although weight would be a serious concern.

Of course other inventions could also make some of these issues go away.
Brygun
player, 277 posts
Mon 10 Jul 2017
at 06:47
  • msg #42

Re: Military: Naval

And these are where the fiction for Science Fiction comes in. Understanding the real world issues with Zeppelins though can add quality to the writing by either having it occur or by talking about how the wonder-widget* doesn't have it making big flyers viable.

* for Space 1889 the wonder widget is liftwood. Other settings would have something else.


btw, there was a now aged computer game called "Airpower" in which the setting was 4 Dukes/duchess each with their own Zepplin squadron make war on the others to contest for the throne. Combat was actually a basic flight sim with each power having their type of fighter and bomber. The planes were based on the Ducal Zepplin carrier.

One way to take out a rival was to fight through their escort Zepplins and planes to take down the carrier Zepplin. Or to blast apart their ground based economy.

Music and artwork for pretty cool too.

Some Airpower links

Airpower's intro movie with a mix of real world Zeps and in game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4WDxVlc53U
^^^^
has real world filming on Zepplin carriers with the planes


gameplay (mostly showing the planes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-b5yM_6EXo

others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGgbAUj3crU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcfXAX_bKM




possible download to try to get it to work
http://www.old-games.com/download/4152/air-power
This message was last edited by the player at 06:56, Mon 10 July 2017.
Brygun
player, 278 posts
Mon 10 Jul 2017
at 07:07
  • msg #43

Re: Military: Naval

Oh and given the success of Fallout 4 we should mention the airship Prydwyn in that game.

In that game the airship allows the movement of a force of ground troops plus airplane VTOL.

That setting lacks any other airpower for surface to air missiles so the Zepplin in this case also makes a wonderful fortress. It gets the high ground advantage wherever it parks.

In their case they parked it an airport and converted the huge spaces to their military depot.

That's  something else a Zepplin in a story could do. Transport cargo and tightly packed manpower to vertically land and deploy it all. The tents and buildings on the ground making a more habitable place to live than cramped on board conditions. Key  personnel and activities, like science labs, might remain up top as it did for the Prydwyn.


Some vids
(If folks have other useful 'take a look' links please post.)
Oxhorn with narration of the airships in the setting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ZXot3gEfI

Storyteller with a good walk around the interior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dKJ1eHeUgk
This message was last edited by the player at 07:11, Mon 10 July 2017.
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