A place to talk rules.

And in at Number One is...

COMBAT TABLE CHOICE

If the combat table says that the chance to hit is reduced to 0

(for example, Ice powers v/s Flame powers or vice versa)

Do you rule that as 'immunity' (there is no chance to hit) or do you rule that an ACC bonus takes the chance to hit back into the positives.

It's sad, but I can't actually remember what I did for certain, although I do think I used to allow Accuracy to count (so a +3 to hit would give you a 3 or less chance if the defence was a 0).
This message was last edited by the player at 01:32, Sun 27 Nov 2011.

Yeah, this was one of the places we used to have problems whilst playing, back in the day.  You have a non-corporeal character being hit by Joe Marksman with a bow... or a gun... and they're non-corporeal.  But Joe has +4 accuracy and has trained up to +3 more with the weapon and is 10th level...

Always struck me as silly, but that was the rule as we interpreted it.

I agree to a degree, you can say 'pinpoint accuracy, skillfully hitting weak points, etc' for some defences, but for Non corporeal???

However as the rules are written you can actually be Non corporeal AND still attack! LOL

So perhaps it's a fair balancing factor? In particular HtH is hard done by against a lot of defences, not to mention the crippling 5 or less to hit to start with (Which I do recall I altered to 8 or less).

Well, in the comics (which V&V simulates), some heroes COULD attack while non-corporeal.  The Vision would frequently use his eyebeams while ghostly, and Phantom Girl from the Legion would punch through a solid object, and hit a dude, all while in phantom form (by solidifying her fist at just the right moment).

But it was always hard for me to buy Hawkeye (say) hitting Kitty Pryde WITH A NORMAL ARROW because he was so accurate, he could hit a ghost...

True, Vision also had that 'forehead gem' that he used as well. :)

But in the comics the Vision wouldn't simply go non corporeal permanently and then level the playing field with eye beams, which is what a player would do. *Laughs*

So making it possible to hit him (albeit with a minus) is perhaps more game balancing?

Ahhhhh the dreaded "non-corporeal" rule discussion.....that one is always a tough call. Making it so non-corporeal is a perfect defense is risky because then it becomes the uber-power, making it so that the person possessing it is completely invulnerable in combat. I suppose there can always be certain attacks that non-corporealness doesn't protect against such as mental attacks (emotion control, mind control, certain psionic attacks) but no one wants to feel utterly ineffective in a fight. A compromise would be to make it always possible to hit someone with non-corporealness on a natural 1 on the die roll. That could be represented by catching the target in a miniscule moment when they are corporeal, perhaps right before or after they launch a physical attack. Definitely an area that I have seen debated many times...

  Yeah, I like the idea of a Non-corporeal character being able to be caught by someone when their concentration has waned for just a second, and the attack- through luck or skill- is able to hit 'em fair and square.

I even like the "comic booky-ness" of it.

EDIT:  Doh!  Just went to the game this character (incipient) is from to get his stats and stuff- and my access as a character had been deleted!

Luckily I had posted it in another game, but if not...!

It really made me appreciative of this format.

Well done Guardian, well done!
This message was last edited by the player at 12:14, Sun 27 Nov 2011.

In reply to Incipient (msg #8):

Yeah Stormstrike's write-up went bye-bye as well! Fortunately I was able to pull everything except his chainmail write-up from the Character Creation thread. I am definitely missing playing V&V!

Wow that is a drag. The GM removed all the characters. The character creation thread is still there. So anyone with characters in that game should go and grab what they can from the character creation thread.

In reply to The Guardian (msg #10):

I'm not sure it was the GM. It looks like they haven't been on the game since August.  It might be some type on inactivity thing, especially since the site update.

I went and grabbed my other guy from the "They Might Be Random" game just in case that's what is going on.

Let me know if you still have a character name to add. Let's see if we can't reruit the rest of the VnV players who have particpated in games on RPOL.

It's interesting that the new RPOL server keeps popping up the games I unsub'd from, but I got promoted to GM & then the GM dropped out & instead of working well, I didn't have full access & we wound up moving to a completely different forum -- but w/o all the previous posts!  Owww, basically this was a critical hit on that game.

As for Hawkeye shooting the non-corporeal hero/villain, I say 'Heck yes he does!'  Maybe the person had 'phased in' for a second, or whatever.

But I'm only talking about Hawkeye, b/c you have to give props to the guy running around with a bow & arrows fighting with Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Giant Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, etc.
:D

Forgot to ask -- Just started a player (this one) with "Dimensional Travel" (option 3) power.

What I am slightly confused by is: can Element Zero jump from one place to another in this reality, or just from the same place back to the same place on this reality?

Is this open to debate/discussion?

Kitty Pryde is phased out and throwing plates from the cupboard at Hawkeye for not putting the milk away. Hawkeye gets angry and shoots a normal arrow, but the roll to hit indicates success. The GM decrees that the arrow went through Kitty, and slammed into the wall receptacle causing Kitty to take damage from the sudden arcing. Or maybe the arrow had such velocity that air friction caused it to be hot enough to do damage from the heat.
That's the GM's job. Make stuff up to describe the results as indicated by game mechanics, dice rolls, and player actions.
Like the Dimensional Travel question, one of the first players in the game I've got on here had the ability to travel to and from an alternate dimension. The GM decided that the particular dimension did not directly correlate as far as time and distance. Basically, one could stick an ice cube in that dimension while they were standing in New York, then spend the day traveling to LA by train, then retrieve the ice cube. Time did not flow in the alternate dimension and distance was multiplied by an enormous amount. However, the GM made this choice in order to deliver more utility to the character. If the character seemed a good fit in the game without this advantage, the GM could have ruled that there was only one place in the alternate dimension so that was the only place you could step in to or out of. Which would mean it would be useless for travel purposes.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:09, Fri 09 Dec 2011.

Maybe have two kinds of noncorporeal.

A The same as the book.

B Reworked so that the can't attack like they can with A but they are unhittable for some the powers that can now affect them.

Had a player who had ethereal but wanted to be able to physically move stuff.
I disputed (as GM).
Next char idea was a out of body travel w/same thing; wanted to be physically able to do stuff.

I try to be flexible as a GM, but players who only want to find the flawed rule(s) and exploit those get me annoyed.

(However I still chuckle about my friend's Half-Orc Physical Adept in Shadowrun that could throw stars way deadlier than people shot bullets!!)

So, apart from the attached game mechanics, what is the difference between an Android Body and a Robot Body?

Eh?  when you say "attached", are you saying the rules in the book?

Robot Body gives extra weight (2-5x) & 2d10 Str and an extra 'Device' power, plus can regain power from Electricity, and less likely to go to sleep.

Android gives 2d10 End bonus + Body Power.

Both Android & Robot Body have to be repaired, not healed.

Another similar power -- Bionics -- can give a player 1 - 6 (!!!) extra powers, as Ebony Reaper has, which the player & GM create.

Does that help, or are you looking for something else?

No no.   I mean ignore the rules, ignore the game mechanics.

Conceptually; what's the difference?  what is the difference between an android and a robot, on a creative writing/roleplaying level?

I think androids appear more human.

An example (if you know Marvel comics) could be "The Vision" (android) and Ultron (robot).  Or Data (from Star Trek) is another android.

The main idea is that androids often are concerned with what it means to be alive, and they may have biological needs and emotions.

Robots generally have very different goals/aspirations, generally none having to do with biological envy and inquiry.  Not a ton of examples of this that I can think of (Red Tornado from DC comics);  Asimov had the sentient robots with the positronic brains which have rules about their behaviors.  I also recently read Robopocalypse which had AI's which bring many independent robots to 'life'.

Generally the robots seem concerned with their own independence, logic, they have some 'software or hardware' defined goals/missions, possibly rules they must obey, etc.

The main issues I'd see in roleplaying them would be:
Androids -- what does it mean to be a 'unique' biological creature, 'who am I' question, plus relationships
Robots -- fulfilling their mission programming, bypassing their programming, (not) relating to biologicals, etc.

Don't forget some of the most famous androids of film!

The Bladerunner androids (Extremely well done), and the Android that goes crazy in Aliens.

I think generally the concept is that Androids are made to be human replicas while Robots are machines, built to do tasks.

It's possible to bend the ideas a bit (Touken has done this very well in the "Battle for the Bay" game), but I think that is the difference in a nut shell.

Great.  That all makes a lot of sense.  Thank you all, for your contributions; I really like the flavor difference that you have given me there.

Yeah, I would hold up two examples from sci-fi shows... Data is an Android... the Robot from Lost in Space is, well, a Robot.  :)

I guess you could say that Robots tend to be metal and obviously mechanical... while Androids, while not 100% HUMAN appearing always, are more "human-like" or organic. Robots are machines; Androids are artificial people.

The problem I seem to have is, I'm unlucky with online dice servers.

Like, all of them.

Literally I can be rolling 1's and 2's in a D&D game and 17's and 18's in V&V.  Why can't the two reverse?  :/

Not much to be done about it, but it sometimes gets to the point where I want to design my characters to be incompetent boobs, just to reflect how they will actually play when the electronic dice start chugging.  :(

I'm the same way...

Until I go onto the OOC of the game and actually say I'm rolling poorly & always do.  The game almost always begins rolling better, as if to spite me.  Still, I'll take being proven wrong and rolling well versus any other option :)

"I missed -- it's a diceroller bug!"  heh

I was thinking a possible rule variant for character generation.

Each character rolls 1d6+2 for powers. But each character rolls 8 times for available powers to choose from that list.

They then are allowed to keep 1 less than they roll on the 1d6+2.

They also roll a weakness and can keep an extra power if they keep it.

That way characters that generate only a few powers have a better chance to come up with a character that can fit a concept they want to play. It also helps balance them a bit.

As us that one d6 roll really alters the player's chance to come up with a cool character.

I generally have players roll the percentiles and THEN pick the column.  Makes char gen a bit more interactive & choice driven.

The harshest roll in VnV is a 1 in powers (ie =3 with a weakness).

If someone gets that, I'm fine with them modifying one or two powers up a bit, so it's almost like they have Power #1 x2 and Power #2 x2 -- and keep the weakness.

Rules actually say to do that, so I figure I'm not too out of line...

Someone had posted a table where the lower the number of powers the more choice the character had.

So if you rolled a one or a two you could pick your powers. On a one you even picked your weakness. the choices were more limited from there until they were completely random.

----------------------------------------------

I pretty much do the same thing.

That is what I am doing in my game for the folks with low powers. That being said I have rolled up several really neat heroes just picking from the column as I roll, even with a low amount of powers. Half the fun is tying everything together. :)

A Powers roll 1 is 2 with a weakness.

At that point I would probably let the player choose their power and their weakness.

In reply to The Guardian (msg #34):

Of course I also allow people to re-roll 1's so the fewest you can get is 3 powers with a weakness.....that does help a little.

So two things: 

1. I'm interested to know people's take on Size Change (Growth UP).  AND
   
2. What would you do if you rolled a villain NPC who is pretty awesome?  Would you play her to her full ability?

1 - SIZE CHANGE
Basically, I want to 'game balance' a player who can grow *really* big (lvl 4) and gets ~ 1400 HP and 3d10 HtH.  He also has regeneration, Weakness Detection, and Height INT & AGI.  In many ways, if he Weakness Detects someone, they are toast.

We are looking at a few ways to balance them out.  A friendly player / GM advistor (and GM in another VnV game) suggested
<quote WW>The system I finally settled on was that the initiative upon which a character acted was modified by whatever agility modifier the new size generated.
A character with a 25 agility that rolled 10 for initiative acts on phase 35. If that character grew to level four size on that phase, their agility would drop by 12, so I drop their initiative by 12 declaring that their next action would occur on phase 8 would be their last on that turn. By the same token, if that same character rolled a 4 for initiative on the following turn, allowing them to act on phase 17, then opted to shrink to normal, increasing their agility (and initiative) by 12, they would be allowed to finish their action (shrinking back is movement only) on phase 14, but would not be able to act more than the number of phases remaining in the turn.
Basically, the agility modifier from growth's weight modifier would cause the character to lose an action or act later but never to gain one.
It also made sense to me that the weight factor was applied to the hit points directly, rather than re-figuring them for each size. Otherwise, the character tends to heal faster at larger size which sets up a situation in which the power can be abused.<quote>
And I added that the character can't roll with punches AND may get KO'd if they lose too many HP AND that their HP are proportional with size.
The hero would still be pretty amazingly tough -- but i think the player might chafe at that.  They may be willing to stop their Growth at max Lvl 3, but I'd like to allow them to do what they rolled ... just don't want it to ruin the game for the others.

2 - Super-Duper Powered Villain NPC's
As for the villain -- I rolled up 2 doozies, and they have been a lot of fun so far, but my concern is they may be unfair b/c they are pretty darned strong, even at Level 1.  The main balancer here is that there are ~ 5 heroes and only 2 villains.  But these villains seem pretty tough.

Any ideas?  Opinions?  Thanks in advance!

http://www.patric.net/morpheus...random_power_gen.htm

From Morpheus



I like this.

I don't think Weaknesses nec are so bad.  Generally I keep them, unless it's a stat with a huge loss.

I don't think Weaknesses nec are so bad.  Generally I keep them, unless it's a stat with a huge loss.

1. Actually, the whole 'Size Change' issue seems to revolve around the prodigious amount of hit points the character's have when grown. It is entirely possible to eliminate Goliath without eliminating his hit points. If the wimpy, agile genius turns invisible and flys up to the back of Goliath's head and kicks him, he would gain to hit bonuses for being invisible and attacking from behind. Utilizing these bonuses to do a special attack to the head would multiply the chances of knocking Goliath out by four, and Goliath would need some special senses to be 'aware' of the attack so that he could roll with the damage. It seems to me, that it's more difficult to handle those that shrink to microscopic (or smaller) size. "I jump on the villain's back and shrink to microscopic size, climbing between the cells in the skin I make my way through his ear canal to his brain pan, then return to normal."
   
2. The heroes in my game recently disbled a granite golem while doing less than an eighth of its total hits. The creature failed a consciousness roll, so I had it get stuck in a hole that had been smashed in the floor. If it ever succeeds with a wake-up roll, I'll rule that it finally tore its way free. This could be bad as the thing still has 484 hit points and does 5d10 damage. The creature is being played to its full ability, but I intend to try hard not to squash the PC of anyone who's still logging on.

A few belated thoughts.

First, the shrinking into someone's brain and expanding is -- I would say -- not terribly heroic. But that is beside the point. :)

The size up is very tough, but remember he weighs probably six tons or more at that size. This is going to limit some places he can stand without breaking stuff or sinking into the ground. He also suffers that -12 Agility penalty. Even with H. Agility, that will take a bit of a bite out of things. (I would, by the way, allow the higher Basic Hits to affect healing rate while grown.)

He's also subject to some attacks that can zap him despite hit points. And that unconscious roll is one thing I'd bring into play, too, although I tend to ignore it most of the time to avoid the extra die rolls.

Second, by all means keep the villain tough. You are not obligated to murder the heroes just because you beat them. You can also arrange for things to draw the villain away. "I'd love to stay here and beat your face into the pavement some more, but the Prometheus diamond requires my attention."

I've found heroes tend to do better than I expect them to do against villains.

In reply to Kid Kinetic (msg #41):

I am reposting this from another game but it is my little foray into keeping a lid on Size Change (Larger) without utterly nerfing it. (I just had issues with any character having enough hit points to literally withstand 3 large nukes (20d20 damage each) and still have over 100 hit points left (granted that damage pretty much assures unconsciousness, but that is not my point...lol)

In case anyone is interested here is something I submitted to the V&V Forum on the Monkey House Games website regarding my suggestions on dealing with Size Change (Larger):

The height and weight of the person change as noted in the rulebook. They do NOT take an Agility penalty for the increased weight (likewise smaller people do not take a bonus for decreased weight). Hit Points are calculated as for the regular height then multiplied by the Height Factor. Carrying Capacity (and HTH damage) is calculated as follows: Height Factor x Normal CC + ((Height Factor -1) x 1000). The person receives Invulnerability per ATTACK equal to the Height Factor – 1 rounded up (to reflect proportional increases in thickness of skin, muscle, bone, and other tissue).

Here is an example of how it would look:

Base Stats: Str 15, End 15, Int 12, Agi 12, Weight 180, Height 6 ft (HPM 3.8)

Normal Size: CC 439 lbs, HTH 1d6, HP 16

1.5 Size: CC 1159 lbs, HTH 1d10, HP 24, Invulerability per Attack 1, (wt. 612) 9 ft

2x Size: CC 1878 lbs, HTH 1d10, HP 32, Invulnerability per Attack 1, (wt. 1440) 12 ft

3x Size: CC 3316 lbs, HTH 1d12, HP 48, Invulnerability per Attack 2, (wt. 4860) 18 ft

4x Size: CC 4756 lbs, HTH 2d8, HP 64, Invulnerability per Attack 3, (wt. 11520) 24 ft

5x Size: CC 6195 lbs, HTH 2d8, HP 80, Invulnerability per Attack 4, (wt. 22500) 30 ft

6x Size: CC 7684 lbs, HTH 2d10, HP 96, Invulnerability per Attack 5, (wt. 38880) 36 ft

7x Size: CC 9073 lbs, HTH 2d10, HP 112, Invulnerability per Attack 6, (wt. 61740) 42 ft

I felt this was a good compromise to still allow for those with Size Change (Larger) to benefit from it but not to the ludicrous levels of HP from how it is as written. Likewise it counters the penalty to Agility that is the bane of some of the larger/heavier types.

In another thread this was posted:




I wonder what the complaint about healing in the game is.

I'm certainly not against healing spells, mutant powers, or psionics that heal, but I've never found the healing rules in the game broken.

I've really never felt a reason to 'keep a lid on' Size Change: Larger. I merely enforce the agility penalty to it's full extent. You only get ludicrous amounts of hit points if you fail to do so.  The example Bonespike used has 85 hit points at size three, but only fifty at size four because agility zeroes out. At size seven the monstrosity has 266 hit points, but an accuracy of -8, and the only agility saves that succeed are when a critical success is rolled. Add to this the initiative being four or less (yes, I do keep the negative numbers), with no action possible on any turn more than half the time, and the power seems nerfed to start with when you get to the largest sizes.


Perhaps the complaint is that it takes a full night's sleep to heal, and then it goes slowly. It's probably just my inane focus on instant gratification, but that's what always bothered me about the healing.

In reply to Star Master (msg #44):

The problem begins if the character was fortunate enough to also acquire Heightened Agility (either one). The character that brought about my thought processes on this issue had an Agility high enough that even at Size 7 it would have had an Agility higher than 10. At Size 3 the character would have had 1300+ hit points, an Agility of 20, an accuracy bonus of +3, a carrying capacity of over 200,000 lbs with a HTH of 6d10. This would be at 18 feet in height and about 4000 lbs weight. At Size 7 the weight would be about 62,000 lbs and the height 42 feet. The modified hit points would be over 11,000. The carrying capacity would be almost 2.7 MILLION lbs with a HTH of 10d10. The Agility would still be 12 for a +1 accuracy. You see the dilemma that comes up. I felt my solution provided a considerable amount of balance. My solution would have that same character having a CC of about 62,000 lbs with a HTH of 5d10. The hit points would be 525, a considerable difference from over 11,000 (at Size 7). At Size 3 that character would have 225 hit points.

I guess it is just a personal thing, having a shred of balance. Maybe that makes me a weak GM in that I don't want to deal with it as written but I can live with that. :p

As GM, of course, you can do anything you like. This is written in the rules somewhere I believe.

Frankly, if I had a character that I felt broke the game, I would just be honest and say we need to change something -- dropping the H. Agility when growing would be my first thought.

I let really weak characters tweak and reroll, so as GM I reserve the right to unbreak the game if random rolls cause a problem.

All these things are true.

But you know, I've made up 8 V&V characters here on RPoL now. Some have been really very weak compared to the monsters thet stood beside, but no GM has ever tweaked my weaker characters down.  But the tough ones that I have rolled have always been tweaked down.


If Size Change is such a problem, why doesnt each GM who dislikes it simply say in their Char Gen, 'if you roll SC, reroll' ... or 'chose another power in its place'.   Why wait till somehow rolls it, then tell them that you'll not allow them to have what they rolled, that you intend to tweak it down?

In reply to Magnette (msg #47):

Well, now that I have decided how to handle it if someone rolls it I will have listed ahead of time my changes. If they don't particularly agree with how I houseruled it they can either have that be a dropped power or roll again. That being said I still think the power is useful (even a slightly above average stats character would get some tweakage from it without losing accuracy) just not nearly as over-the-top as how it is rules as written.

GMs are not perfect, of course, but I know I always try to make decisions that improve the overall game for all players. That means making sure even "weak" characters have some sort of way they can shine or play an important role. It also means making sure none of the characters is so unbalanced that it undermines the game.



In Bonespike's example the "problem" arose because of the combination of SC and H. Agility. The GM cannot predict every possible combo that might lead to difficulty.

Is there any mechanism in this game's rules/mechanics for grappling; grabbing hold of some little shit, and beating the hell out of him ... in a way that, once you've successfully held them, it's easier to hit them round after round?

In reply to Magnette (msg #50):

VnV version 2 has mexican wrestling rules which cover it.

Cos I'd love for one of my characters to be able to do this.

Not sure why, but I always have players min-maxing their heroes.  Have never had problems with certain players, but a few show the signs in character creation.

I'm probably one of them.  I never try to overpower, but I always try to make something interesting/great/fun when I get Mutant Power, Body Power, Psionic, etc.

I rolled Silver Dragon w/Psi Power and Magic Spells, which was a lot of fun to come up with.  Switched it all to 'Chi Powers'.  Talk about a crazy combo -- when the GM saw what I rolled, I think they got worried too.

When I started playing, the GM said Silver Dragon was the heavyweight hero in the group -- but he didn't have any heavyweight powers, just potential, IMO.

In reply to Silver Dragon (msg #53):

Speaking of Magic Spells I have been thinking about them some. If each spell is roughly equivalent to say 2/3 or 3/4 of a power then by 4th level a character with Magic Spells would have about the equivalent of 3 or 4 new powers whereas others have small incremental improvements to one attack type, one damage type, one attribute, etc. Wondering if anyone else feels a little twinge of concern about the possible ramifications of such a difference in power between levels? It isn't like I totally want to nerf Magic Spells but there is a definite difference between 3/4 of a power and a +1 to one attack. Thoughts?

It does make those with "Magical Spells" seem to become uber-ubermenschen as they progress in levels, but that's no different than the issue with the guy who start with six powers and no weaknesses, then rolls Animal/Plant Powers for two of the six, and has to be in the same group as the poor sot with the natural weaponry skill, a special weapon, and a physical handicap.
Rather than try to balance things by re-writing Animal/Plant powers into a new, improved balance by dilution, version,  use the open-ended aspects of natural weaponry and special weapon to make the disadvantaged individual into something as formidable.
In other words, if magical spells made through the inventing process are giving Doctor Weird the Phoenix Effect, then let Emerald Bolt use the inventing process to re-configure his crossbow into more formidable weapons and thereby keep the balance. As long as the villains get the same bonuses through invention, everything should come out in the wash. Besides, it's supposed to be fun. What could be more enjoyable than having the heroes survive the uber-villain dropping a mountain on them.

I think there will always be characters that are more powerful than others in VnV. Having lots of powers that are 2/3 as effective as a power is great but at a certain point it matters less and less.

I think it is important that the character who has an power via magic spells is some how nerfed versus the character that rolls it.

I think in general an invention point should be worth one quarted to one third a power, the advanatge of magic spells is it gives you 2/3 and a method to gain abilities. Other improvement should also require knowledge and equipment to be developed. Power stunts fall in this same area.

I use "power stunts" as a way to let non-magic characters expand the range of their powers.

In the end, though, magic spells will become more impressive at higher levels. This is part of the game, as is having characters who are more powerful than others.

In reference to Silver Dragon's point about power gaming, there is certainly room for abuse in V&V. I've had to learn to take a conservative early with things like Mutant Power and then give characters room to grow, as I've found characters often push whatever boundary I set up. (I also give myself the option to go back and reboot if a previous decision turns out to have been a big mistake.)

As someone who has run V&V, Champions, and MnM on RPOL, though, I have to say I get far fewer headaches in V&V with players trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of the character creation process.

It is still there, but not nearly so intense.

Oh CHAMPIONS is the worst.  "Rules Rapeage" is more like it.  I've seen it both ways.  I've seen the math-majors crunch the numbers so their characters are unbeatable demigods... and I've seen the overreactive GMs lay down so many restrictions that the PCs all end up looking the same.  Martial Artist?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV.  Brick?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV.  Blaster?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV... etc., etc...

The "balance point" is inbetween but it's always a struggle.

V&V doesn't usually pretend so hard to be balanced.  :)

In reply to Shimakaze (msg #58):

That has always been an issue I have had with "point buy" systems, especially in regards to supers. Makes it far too easy to put together an uber-hero that can break the system. It also makes it too easy to put together power combinations that really make no sense together as they were only chosen to create the most powerful hero the person could cobble together using the rules.

Right, and any "sweeping" rules the GMs put in place to curb it can end up forcing characters into "cookiee cutter" molds.

Not a fun choice.  CHAMPIONS works best with a certain mindset... "Yes, I know we can all abuse the rules, but let's just not."

Not to say CHAMPS can't be a ton of fun with the right group.  But seems cumbersome for online play.

I have played Champions with both mindsets. Both can be fun, but within limits.

A GM can always balance a game in play. If you read comics it happens all the time. Characters tend to fight what they can deal with, but the GM can also alter the opposition a bit if you need to balance it.

Some characters have powerful out of combat or pre or post combat abilities.

But the characters themselves can also balance it. If I am the toughest super I will dive right in and go after the toughest go on the other side.

I am also a proponent of post character rolling fixing. If a character only gets a couple of powers let them pick what powers they receive. There might be times to say no, if the combination is too unbalancing. But play around with the character and let them super size a power to make them more effective.

I would probably not let them be as tough as the character that got lucky but i would close the gap a bit so the character would be fun.

Well, in V&V there's already a mechanic to help out the player who rolls only a few powers.  Pg. 4, last paragraph: "A character with few powers tends to be less powerful than a character with many.  This being the case, the GM is encouraged to upgrade the usefulness of the powers received by a character with few powers, in order to make him capable of contending with more powerful characters."

So if Joe only gets 3 powers, and has to drop one to take a weakness and a second to ditch a debilitating weakness... if he rolls up Power Blast, it ought to do more damage than Mike's character with 7 powers (including Power Blast, Flight and Invulnerability).

Not all GMs do this, but those that do, really have a better shot at at least a sort of balanced game. :)

That is pretty much what I did in my game, tweaked the powers so they were more useful: cheaper cost, longer range, some added ability, etc...

In reply to Bonespike (msg #63):

I think your take on it was perfect Bonespike.

Agreed!

I always do this.  I think if you have only 1 power, it's re-roll time.  But if you have 2 powers, then I (if I'm GM'ing) will treat that character as if they have both powers at 2x, or one power at 3x, more or less.

You can make some awesome characters like this.  But, some really weak powers can't really be enhanced too well, so I work with characters.

You can also get some sweet heroes with just 1 or 2 powers, like a 'power copy' absorb power (had that in MoSqUiTo -- but he also had Super Speed -- super combo!), or enhancing the 'transformation' power to copy the thing *perfectly* in all aspects, including memories (Rogue?).

Last point -- when I roll a weak sauce character, it's a bummer.  I admit it.  Every hero needs some flair!!!

As a player, my all-time favorite character rolled a two for powers. By the time it was done I had Ht Speed and Ht Ag.
The character was a blast because I could focus on story and let combat sort itself out. I've had other characters with awesome powers (including one with powered armor, wings, sonics, and the intelligence to make them better), but they weren't as much fun as the simple fast guy.

Just happens that Height Sped + Height Agi is one of those 'killer combos' where you generally get *quite a lot of moves per turn*, right?

As a GM, I'd counter that character with a Gravity Control NPC, I suppose.  Everyone gets 3x their weight (or more)?

Rolled both but only got a +10 to agility. But did roll high on the heightend Speed. First time I have ever gotten both on a VnV character.

In the same game the brick also got heightend Speed, though he rolled lower.

Even so it should be a brutal combo.

A good GM makes all the difference in gaming, really.  Not that it's all on the GM - players and player chemistry are very important.  But the right GM can make a game a real gem.

I just got to play out the coolest heroic sacrificial death scene, with the flexibility of our awesome GM over in V&V New Dawn.  Awesome stuff!  :)

Anyone had to make 'detection' distance rules?

I have a character in a game (should bring him over here)
who has x3 Det Hidden & Danger rolls based on Det Vibration power in his Spec Weapon.

On our first run, the GM asked how far our Detects worked,
then made a ruling that it was a function of INT stat,
and then said that my hero wouldn't have detect dangered a sniper shooting at him
NOR the location of the sniper.

I objected vigorously, but I also think it's important to use common sense for Detects rather than try to figure out a distance formula.

Anyone else have opinions?  Does anyone else make distance rules for Detects?
I only GM'd V&V briefly, but I def didn't have a need to do this.

In my V&V game, however, we did have a lot of negotiation between me (GM) & a few players about what was allowable in a character.  I tried to catch any overblown combos at that point, rather than limit things during the game.

Personally, I tend to play fast and loose with any numbers not already delineated in the rules. If I were the GM, and one of the characters had Cosmic Awareness crossed with Psionics that allowed them to automatically succeed on detection rolls, the snipers I wanted to surprise them with would still be a surprise.
Sometimes, the numbers have to take a back seat to the story.

I think the definition of the power matters here.

Your friendly neighborhood Spider Man should be able to roll against a sniper, but only once the sniper draws a bead on him.

I'm not sure what "detect vibration" means, but it sounds like it would not help against a sniper until the trigger was pulled. Depending on the other powers, I might give him a chance.

The V&V rules are completely imbalanced, as we all know.

I've played in a few rpol games now where players had "the killer combos" that I know of, namely:

Height Speed + Height Agi + Invuln
Armor + Height Str
Size Change + Height Agi
2x Magic Spells
Invis / Non Corporeal / Fly
Absorb (Powers) + Height Speed + Height Agi (actually, MoSqUiTo (= me) had those!!!)

(And also in a F2F Champions game, one friend always made amazingly over-powered heroes with very few points spent.  It was impressive!)

Question is this:
When you build your character(s), do you aim for 'balance', or do you aim for 'overpower' / imbalanced?
Or as GM's, do you build your villains to match/balance heroes, or do you roll them randomly, or ...?

What I seem to do is (luckily) roll up someone who is pretty super-powered, then the GM & I 'tone them down', and then I weedle in little bonuses with inventions & whatnot.

But is this REALLY how to run Superhero RPG's?  Are we supposed to have 'game balance', or should we just let them run wild & let the gameplay balance it all out?

Interested to hear people's takes on things...?

I think "balance" is a relative thing.

When I run or play a game, what I want is for every character to have some time to shine and for every player to get to do some of the things that they like. Some people like to be the biggest, meanest, toughest mo-fo on the block. They should get a chance to do that every now in them. Some like to be clever. Some like to sulk and mutter about dark tidings.

That said, I don't want a game with Dr. Manhattan in it where the rest of the heroes are just window dressing while he does all the really important stuff.

So far on RPOL, I've not run into overly wicked players or NPCs. Of course, in the game I'm playing now, my character has Emotion Control and Shape-Shifting as his two primary powers and I like him a lot. I may not be the best person to comment on balanced games.

<-----Height Speed + Height Agi + Invuln

I like my character to feel like a comic book hero. The Patriot also had Disintergration Ray, a great power that deals lots of damage with high to hit numbers, but I dropped it because it did not fit what was otherwise a very tight concept.

What I find off putting is when a character just doesn't gel because the desire to have a bunch of powers that only make you tougher but not cooler.

It's definitely a fine balance.

My char has a few abilities, incl 'mutant power' & spells.  He could've been *much* stronger, but I opted to go for the 'super martial artist' (like Iron Fist, even tho in most comics he's the weakest hero).

I also toned his Mutant Power down signifcantly bc original GM felt that he was overpowered compared to the rest of the group.  Now that he's in a new game group, I think he's right in the middle of power levels - def not the weakest, def not strongest.

Yeah, that original GM has a stick up his butt. :)

Silver Dragon: Feel free to post both versions of the mutant power so we can see the options.

I must say that the most fun I've had on RPOL is playing 'The Bowler'.
His powers don't matter, he's a typical backwoods farm boy turned professional bowler superhero. It makes me smile just to think about it.

This message was last edited by the GM at 06:48, Wed 20 Mar 2013.

Incipient was the best character I've ever rolled naturally, or played.

Awesome.

Basically:  Great stats- everything was high, high hit points, ARMOR, AND HP REGENERATION, a psionic ranged attack that could only be defended against with mental abilities/willpower, the ability to force re-rolls (This power also EVOLVED into other permutations per level, albeit at a high PR cost, BUT...), a Power Absorption power that REGENERATED THE HIGH PR COSTS OF HIS POWERS.  He was basically, like, a non heavy damage wielding tank.  I ran him through some 1 on 1 fights and he easily outlasted Behemoth, among other big baddies.  He also had a katana and was able to do fair HTH damage. He could only do about 6-20 points of damage- never a lot, but never a little- a tight range.

He could just outlast anybody, and could just patiently chip away at them until they went down.

I also liked how well his powers worked together in his character, and how complete he felt.  Kind of a perfect defensive character.  Also: despite his having a ton of powers...he was essentially just a guy in a white suit.  He didn't look too weird.  He was a smart guy, a little emotionless, but fun to play.  Potentially "leader of the team" material.  Man, I really wanted to run with him in a long term game. *sigh*

Maybe someday.  :)

Here's his power set:

Powers:

1.  Mutant Power: Reality Distortion- Incipient can play with and alter the laws of reality.
     There are a myriad of applications for this ability that Incipient has yet to explore.
     At the moment, however, he only knows one application.

Limitations to "Reality Distortions":
     While, it can be applied in non-combat situations easily enough,
     the "Reality Distortion" Mutant Ability requires time to "see" the patterns of what is happening in a battle in order to be effective.
     As a result, Incipient cannot use the ability during the first round of battle.
     If surprised, Incipient can not use the ability until the third round.
     If surprised mid fight, Adam must wait a full round to use the ability again (and "see the patterns" once more).

  -Ability A: Probability Distortion:  Force ANY roll to be re-rolled, any time. PR=3 per re-roll forced.
     This does not cost an action to invoke.  Only the PR cost.  Re-rolls can only be forced once per action.

2.  Animal/Plant Power: One Celled Organism (3 powers, -4 STR, +2 END, +2 AGL)-
 A. Armor: (ADR=83, x 2.49 body weight, Regrowth rate: 44 pts. per night).
     Thick, rubbery, tough, smooth cocoa skin covers Adam Clay's body.
     As it takes damage it looses it's density, but does not crack or split.
     It does not seem strange to the naked eye and a casual glance, but a close look shows an impossibly clear complexion...
 B. Regeneration: Regenerates per turn instead of per day.
     Can not regenerate Ice Damage as it slows the cell regeneration to a crawl.
 C. Lowered INT: -5

3.  Heightened Endurance B: +24

4.  Absorption:  Incipient can take in energy meant to harm him, and use it to bolster his own personal energy reserves.
     Basically, he absorbs incoming damage and converts it into stored Power.
     2 points of Power for every point of damage taken.

5.  Heightened Intelligence B: +16

6.  Psionics: "Primal Scream"- equivalent to a mental sonic blast.
     Attacks as Mind Control and Defends as Willpower. 1d12 Damage, R= 28" (Sx2xL in inches), PR=1 Per shot.
     Physical bulwarks (Armor, Invulnerability, etc.) do not protect against this attack.
     Opponents can, however, mentally "roll with the punch," as per the V&V rules.
     Area Scream: Effects all within 28" (Sx2),  PR=3 per Area attack.  Defense takes 1 action to set up, PR=1.

7.  Willpower (B):  +9 applied as desired to STR, AGL or END.

8.  Weakness: Vulnerability:  Fire.  It does double damage to HP.
     Incipient's natural temperature is a little bit higher than the average human being.
     When hit with flame attacks that actually harm his inner body cells, the heat burns faster through his body, causing greater damage.

He was awesome. I offered to co run stand alone solos with you but never heard back.

link to another game

I was planning on running a pretty powerful character, Wraith II, I rolled up for the short lived magic game.

Sorry Silver Dragon, I acccidently edited your post.

In reply to The Guardian (msg # 83):

Weird!

I vaguely remember this. Must have been when I was completely swamped.

It wasn't on my sticky or anything.

I'll PM you in the game.  Maybe we can get something rolling...

We are both set up as GMs.

No worries.  I don't think I actually typed "Wow that is pretty awesome. basically doubles your PP every fight.", but all good.

While this Psi Power could theoretically be good -- namely if Silver Dragon unleashed lots of dmg or had some ridiculous attacks that needed a lot of PP -- basically it's really good for THEME, ie he has a unique martial arts Chi (or soul) of a Dragon.  And then all his 'Magic Spells' are called "Chi Powers" instead.  (And he now will be EVADING a lot since he doesn't have much HP -- and got creamed last fight, even while invisible.)

Anyway...  Incipient was the char I thought of for Armor + other amazing stuff.  Yeah, he was quite a critter.  Actually I thought his biggest weakness was no movement power, and also no mental defense for a mind controller type.

Don't know if I saw Wraith II, but Wraith 1 seems pretty effective.

Guardian & Incipient -- wanna start a V&V game called "OVERPOWERED" where we all make Hulks can have them encounter with some contrived reason & then destroy everything?
:D

I was playing in a game (that died) where we played giant monsters battling.  Was fun.  (Not V&V tho.)

In reply to Silver Dragon (msg # 87):

Incipient's Psychic Scream defends as Willpower which defends somewhat against mind control/emotion control attacks.

That was Wraith II, Wraith I was the tampa game that died. Wraith II rolled up as everything Wraith I was and more.

I was in the game with Incipient,as Wraith I, and knew how much he had wanted to play the character. Wraith II, like Incipient, is strong enough to play as a solo.

So a while back I offered him a chance to run solo games for each other. I want to give that idea a run. I think we could do that as one shots and have a lot of fun as well.But want to start with this one.

I figured I would bring this up here as not only am I a GM but am also in V&V games (well, one right now) on here...

I was looking at the chart for velocity damage and it really seems unbalanced compared to the brawling weapon damage by weight and HTH base damage by formula. For example you can get a 2d8 damage bonus to a thrown object as long as you can impart 121" of velocity to the object. Now, 121" is 27.5 mph which is not exactly a high velocity. An average person could, RAW, throw a baseball at that speed doing 1 damage (for the weight of the baseball) + 2d8 damage (for the 121"/27.5 mph velocity). The average damage on that is 10 which is easily enough to knock out an average person. I could see a 70 mph baseball being able to knockout your average person pretty easily but it is harder to imagine a 27.5 mph baseball doing that.

The rules leave out a number of the damage die steps that the brawling weight table and HTH formula both have. I could easily see houseruling it to make it a bit more balanced but that would penalize low level telekinetics and even weaker magnetic power users. Really strong characters of course would be significantly less impaired. What do people thing about how the velocity damage table progresses?

Actually, that's the reverse of what I've always felt about thrown brawling weapons. According to the throwing rules, the velocity damage is based on the distance traveled prior to impact. To get the full 2d8 you would have to hit the target at a range of 121" (at -2 to hit).
If you were to propel an object 121" within a single phase (about one second) it would be traveling at 412 mph, so 2d8 doesn't sound bad.
However, throwing a fastball at a target and getting a 70 mph damage bonus means the ball travels about 21". Therefore it would do 1 pip for weight and nothing for velocity. So if the Astounding Green Bulk gets hold of a grapefruit, run up to him. If you're within a football field or so, he can't really hurt you.

I can see where you are coming from on this but I don't think it truly pans out that simple. From a rules perspective it is highly penalizing (and not very comic-like) to not allow acceleration damage to telekinetic, magnetic, and thrown attacks. Magneto could take ball bearings and make them as deadly as bullets in a fairly close range. And many telekinetics in the comics use light objects at high velocity to cause impressive damage. Going with the distance travelled thing you could posit that if you are right at the barrel of a gun the bullet would do no damage because it didn't travel much distance at all and that is definitely NOT the case.

That being said, if you can step in *close* enough (and this is important) to something being thrown so that the thrower does not reach full extension that could absolutely reduce the velocity and resultant damage. A thrower needs full extension, spin, or whatever to get that last snap that imparts the acceleration and velocity to the object thrown. I saw a sports science program where a woman threw a softball 65 feet at about 70 mph and she absolutely shattered the meter they were using. Professional fighters can strike with 1000 lbs. of force and there is no way their fist weighs that much. It is the acceleration and the snap along with the weight that imparts the damage. I would personally not try standing 10 feet away from someone who can throw a baseball 90 mph and count on not being hurt. That ball leaves the hand at essentially that speed, maybe catching a moment of acceleration upon leaving but after that it begins to decelerate slowly due to distance, gravity, and air resistance. The same goes for an arrow; standing right at the arrow when it is released may be much less damaging but 10 feet away and you are dead, it is going fast enough to kill you.

Going towards how you are thinking velocity works (and it does look like that in the rules but doesn't make sense) really nerfs any kinetic accelerator types, and they can start out hard enough taking a while to get to some decent damage as it is. Ultimately I feel that if you have enough room to get a fully extended throw, spin, launch, etc. that is the velocity for the turn and what gets hit takes damage based on that velocity. It realistically doesn't get there in one second just like realistically when a person has an action and moves 50" they are not in one place then 1 second later are 250 feet away. It actually makes sense to break the movement down into phase increments to show progression towards the destination. It isn't even that hard to do but is a bit busy (but the GM would do it and it doesn't slow down a PbP game); divide 15 seconds by the amount of phase increments according to initiative. The result is how long each phase increment is and movement is effectively divided among those phase increments so if you move on 20 for example, you start your movement then and in the intervening 15 phase increments you are moving towards your destination. I actually did something like that early in my game when Oscillator wanted to intercept the thrown grenade, fly it to the soldiers, drop it, then angle up to phase into the ceiling. Only teleporters get to instantly move in one phase increment from one location to the next, any other movement takes time. Just look at the jumping rules (as weird as they are); your jump takes place over a number of phases, why should other movement be any different? I think they abstract it to make it simpler perhaps but it logically would be the same.

In putting these thoughts down it actually brings up a problem I have with how falling damage works. As written it really does look like for the whole turn you are hovering in the air then between turns you fall the appropriate distance. For me it would make more sense to break down each turn's worth of falling into phase increments using what I mentioned above, so every phase increment the person would fall X distance based on the total acceleration. That would prevent weird shit like when Silver Dragon blew out the supports over Ba Kien but he was able to just step out of the way because as written it wouldn't fall until the turn was over.

I think my biggest problem with the velocity damage chart is it reads wrong; 1d4, 1d8, 2d8, 2d10, 3d10, etc. is a max damage progression after the initial 1d4 of 4, then 8, then 4, then 10 for every increment after that. It sits odd on my OCD tendencies. Changing the chart to read like this: 1d4, 1d8, 1d12, 2d8, 2d10, 3d10, etc. makes the damage progression after the initial 1d4 more logical; 4 to the 1d8, 4 to the 1d12, 4 to the 2d8, then increments of 10 after that.

Breaking down the velocity by phases does make more sense on falling objects, and the damage progression on the velocity chart does seem disjointed.
In play, I tend to use the maximum distance the object could be thrown as the velocity to figure the bonus damage. Unfortunately, this leads to multiple characters purchasing marbles and hoarding quarters. Anyone with a carrying capacity over 2500 pounds does more damage throwing a marble than they do shooting an energy rifle.

I totally understand that, I would just say that players should be reasonable rather than power-gaming. At least having the 1000" cap on velocity of thrown objects does help a lot, remembering that velocity equals remaining carrying capacity/10. Yes the person with the 2500+ lb carrying capacity can do a chunk of velocity damage throwing, but so can their opponents. I have always been about using the same tactics as players, it just makes sense. Of course the attack bonus of a light object is negligible and HTH to hit is abysmal so min-maxing like that can backfire too.

why is there a cap?

If someone can throw something faster why should it be capped?

Like I said in the other thread there are plenty of other things you can correct. Second as far as balance HTH is already when of the worst attack types. Sounds like a problem that does not need to be fixed.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:48, Thu 03 Apr 2014.

Like I said it is the increments that bother me the most, the strange damage progression. Throwing the 1d12 or 2d6 in the chart smooths out the progression and doesn't radically change the damage being done. I have already altered HTH from the base of 5 to a base of 6 and have toyed with the idea of moving the base up to 7.

As far as why there is a cap that would be a question for Jeff. I am guessing it is because of air resistance, gravity, and such.

Yes, other attacks are far more accurate but aside from spending every level adjustment on a +1 damage to those attacks (which HTH users can also do) the highest damage as written is 1d20 where HTH attacks can exceed 10d10.

It definitely makes sense to me to change how falling damage is done to prevent those Looney Toons moments, same thing goes with movement. It doesn't slow the game down as it is a PbP and just is logical. It still gives people the chance to intervene on a falling object (I don't think anyone has fallen yet in the game) and makes movement more normal and less of a teleport.

The whole doing more damage with a thrown quarter than a high-powered rifle does bring up some concerns. I have always wondered about increasing the damage firearms do since even though it is a small projectile it is travelling at very high velocity.

I just want to throw this in here as well, as a disclaimer I suppose...

As much as people may think I am looking for realism that really isn't it. I am looking for versimilitude, some consistency in things. If something doesn't make sense it grates at me.

In reply to Bonespike (msg # 97):

Consistency on its own seems like an insufficient reason to change things to me. If you are going to change things to try and mirror "reality" I get it, otherwise seems unneeded.

Well, putting the 1d12 or 2d6 into the velocity damage chart satisfies my sense of order and even a touch of "reality" (as much as there is in a supers game) as does changing how falling damage and movement works. That pagoda thing really brought it home for me, Silver Dragon did a cool thing and he was essentially penalized for it by the rules as-written. This is not Dale's fault, he made it clear he goes as much by-the-book as he can and he didn't write the falling damage rules. For me I just have difficulty with something like falling in a 15 second turn doing nothing during the turn then in the moment between turns all the falling happens, likewise movement being an all at once thing; here one phase, 50" away in the next. Moving 50" in 1 phase just because it seems that is what is intended by the rules just makes no sense; 250 feet of movement in 1 second is moving your whole body at 170 mph for that second.

Any rule that encourages characters to hoard small objects should be encouraged.

This SO inspires me to let my guy die & make a new hero called "The Hoarder" who carries a bunch of regular items around & 'imbues' them with some kind of power ...

"QUARTER!!!!" Hoarder shouts, imbuing the quarter with 500mph velocity and a carrier shockwave.

(Maybe I'm excited for Game of Thrones new season & thinking of Hodur...?)
This message was last edited by the player at 23:12, Sun 06 Apr 2014.

I had a character who basically threw baseballs at people.

Guessing at character's name:

1. Pitcher
   
2. Fastball
   
3. Knuckleball
   
4. Big League
   
5. Spitball
   
6. Chucker
   
7. Kid Balls

Did I nail it?
;D

You could have named him Nolan.

Hit by Pitch

There's a Wild Card's character that has that power..she's mondo dangerous but not overpowering.

The Closer

That's an awesome name for a pathetically weak character that either has no offensive power(s), or has only quirky annoying powers.   d:D

Which reminds me, wasn't someoing going to run a V&V sidekicks game?!?!?
Was that GM Bones' idea?

Kinda like "The Tick" TV show, a V&V game where all the sidekicks do their thing -- but no one has a single really useful power.  HA HA  (Even telling the concept makes me chuckle!!!)

Okay, so I just dropped 10 Large Nuclear Bombs. Average damage was 212 hp.

So, that is going to knock anyone who gets hit unconscious (212% chance) and knock them back 1,000 feet or so.

This got me thinking how to do "knock back" damage.

Should it be calculated like falling damage?

In this case, assume the character hit had 5 basic hits. After flying back 200 inches, it hits the ground (structural rating = 4).

That would be 447 points of damage, but the first half of that would be taken by the earth (223 leaving a 55 cubic foot crater).

Or, it could just be treated like a thrown weapon, which would be substantially less damage (1d4+2d8).

Normally, I tend to run knockback damage like falling damage. However, if the victim 'rolled with' any portion of the damage I assume the knockback was 'controlled movement' and that they managed it without actually striking anything. I also tend to let anything that can reduce the damage actually reduce it.
My reasoning behind this is that, even at minimal levels knockback can be extreme. Assume a 200 pound man shot with a pistol takes six points of damage from the shot. The guy flies ten feet through the air and takes two more points of damage from hitting the ground, plus leaves a man-shaped depression in the ground about an inch deep.
I hope I haven't figured that wrong, because those figures have changed the way I handle knockback for a long time.

I do it like a thrown weapon, myself.

There is a Knockback Rules table in the back of one of the old V&V Villain compendiums that I use. It had damage for distance then you calculate damage for weight as a thrown object. Now, I only inflict full damage if the victim actually hits a perpendicular surface. If they are sent tumbling along the ground I halve the damage. In both cases damage can be rolled into power.

In addition to this I don't generally allow any knockback from being shot by firearms (maybe 5 feet at most). The reason is one episode of Mythbusters they shot at a hanging carcass with firearms up to a 12 gauge shotgun and it did not get thrown back significantly at all. Most of the bullet's energy either passes through the body or is transmitted as hydrostatic shock which expands perpendicular to the wound track.

Yes, but this is comic books, which are more like moves than real life.

That said, I generally don't do knock back for firearms either.

Well, as you may have observed, in addition to being a pathological rules tinkerer I also have a spot for at least a tiny bit of versimilitude. :)

So how does a group use "team work" in a V&V game?

*Focus fire on one foe
*Hit from multiple sides to try to get a flank/rear for one of them

What else?

Are there ways for one character to improve the odds that another character hits or harms a foe? Would the "special attack" rules cover that?

Well, besides taking specific 'teamup' power stunts (ie when team does maneuver X they get bonus to hit or damage), I'm thinking about maneuvers:

Fastball Special (big tank throws a melee striker)
Drop the Package (teleporter/flyer drops a ranged hitter into the enemy)
Charge 'em Up (shoot/punch your absorber teammate)
The ol' 1-2 attack (first range attack is water, second is ice, or similar 'combining' elements)
the 'what/where' maneuver (ie darkness and alternative targeting senses or nightvision goggles, etc), similar to
the 'fake out' (ie illusion hero tells the teammates to ignore the 'giant veloceraptor' in the field, etc)

Hope those are helpful ideas?
:)

Seen a bit too much of the "power up the absorbing guy" tactic recently. :)

Not enough on OUR team (speaking as an absorber)
and too much of those baddies.  :D

That villain has absorbed aprox 7 attacks in one melee!

I've played Osc for 1-2 years and have absorbed 2 attacks!  Meh

Can you absorb physical attacks?  Vos should direct her attacks at you.  Of course, she'd miss. ;)

As 'master of vibration', Osc can absorb 'any kinetic' attack.  Goes to PR score, tho.  not that exciting -- but it got stuck into a Special Weapon that is pretty sweet when you put all the stuff together.

Uh, the Spec Weap is not like Cap's shield or anything -- kinda how I want a Sp Weap to operate -- but it's pretty cool.  And Osc can upgrade it, etc, bc it's his lab experiment.

The most *efficient* way and the way that is smoothly covered in the rules is to coordinate attacks so the foe is attacked from 4 side. That makes the foe have to choose who to give the +2 flank bonus and the +4 rear bonus to.

The things that Oscillator suggested are interesting but each have their limitations:

The charge-up is limited to duration of holding the charge (Backlash has his held damage bleed off every minute until it is gone). It can also encourage a bit of meta-gaming where people pump damage into the absorber prior to a combat but with a duration you have to know *when* the combat is. I mean it would have been easy to have Backlashed charged up with boatloads of damage potential but I extrapolated damage he would have taken from the firebirds. Being able to hold a charge indefinitely is....well, it is simply game-breaking potentially. That is one thing I like about the Absorption rules is that you have to sacrifice actions to absorb incoming attacks, making it a tactical decision.

The "Fastball Special" is useful but the thrown PC also takes damage from striking the target. It might be half damage, I am not 100% sure. I know a move-thru is half damage taken by the attacker.

The other ones are adjudicated on a situational basis I would imagine.

Actually, most of them were from comics.

And of course, it wouldn't make sense to hurl someone that would get hurt by getting thrown / impact.  That's why Colossus throws Wolverine (fast regenerate), Beast (tumbles), or Nightcrawler (who teleports but keeps his momentum).

I'd treat a Fastball Special 'power stunt' as follows:
+ both teammates would need it as a level up
+ both teammates would have to hold actions to go on same phase
+ on the throw phase, throwing teammate chucks & gives thrown hero move bonus, velocity bonus, and optionally 'flight/jump' equivalent for a few phases (depending on distance)
+ on the following phase, the thrown hero could attack with velocity bonus, surprise attack (if unseen/unobserved), maybe a chance to lower (or totally negate) any damage from landing, or similar.

For V&V games that really go for awhile, I'd want to ENCOURAGE teams to develop power stunts as a team, mix moves with eachother, and so on.

I don't think I'd give villain groups team up abilities, unless that's their specific power set.

In the game I'm in, we have a cat-hero would is superstrong and a rubber hero who is superstrong, and both have special abilities related to falling.  So maybe they could throw eachother, or better yet throw a flyer or similar...?
*Actually, Oscillator can absorb kinetic damage, so theoretically Osc could hold an action and be thrown into a bunch of villains, dishing out damage AND absorbing the damage he takes!!*
Hey, thanks for the idea!

(Will have to wait for later tho, Osc just got KO'd.  Meh)

Often, Wolverine wasn't shown as being thrown into the target so much as being thrown just close enough that he could attack with his claws as he passed by.

The lack of grappling rules came up in a game. Wondering what rules if any people have created or adopted for their games?

Im a new player in a game, rolled Transmutation -- among other things.

Anyone else had it / seen ither player with it?  Howd it work out?

I was surprised it is almost like Absorb, mutant power, or psionics in terms of potentially broad scope.

Think we've got a solid power now, but it was a trip coming up with this.

(Char will be called 'Radiant Enchantress' in game.)

I had a gorgon type character, Mandusa, that could transmute people to stone, it was very frustrating for the villains who had to wake up out of it. Costs a lot of PR, i was always tired.

Its def a lot of PR, but that could also be a 1-hit KO.

It changes a target from one thing to another for 8pp. It can not just kill a living character.

Do not quite see how it is that broad a power.

Actually, the power transforms one thing to another.  It could be a living creature into an inanimate substance, as we have so far discussed.  But I also found these examples online (from V&V books):

Shee-Ariel from Dawn of DNA
Transmutation: 38 inch range, PR = 8 per attempt. Able to change anything into anything, though gasses must remain gasses and liquids remain liquids, etc. Only matter can be transmuted. Lasts five minutes, or only two minutes if an animate object is rendered inanimate or an inanimate object is animated.

Mystico from Most Wanted (vol. 3).
Transmutation: Anything to anything automatically on a hit except that the target's sentience and animation cannot be affected; i.e. a brick could be turned into a dead, inanimate body or a human could be changed into a thinking, animate brick. PR = 8 per success. 52" range.

Mystic's Device: Rod of Power: Range = 30 inches.  Turns victim non-corporeal until the victim saves vs. Intelligence on percentile dice. Attacks as transmutation. Four changes per day.

I see those examples as pretty broad power scope.


True.  But it takes them out of the fight for awhile, esp if they are rock or mud or whatnot & then shattered somehow.  (Rules say re-assembling should allow them to come back somehow.)

The thing to remember with Transmutation is that it requires an action and PR of 8 to affect one target. By itself, that reduces the power to manageable. Defining it as a taser-beam and stating it transmutes consciousness from alert to inert makes it equivalent to another power (Paralysis Ray), so it should be reasonable. Maybe it could transmute the moisture in the air surrounding the target from gaseous to solid, thereby covering the target with 2d8 cubic feet of ice; again we've made it equivalent to another power, and therefore it should be reasonable.
There was a character in a game I played many years ago (not my game, nor my character) who had Transmutation defined as changing one element to another. He wrote up effects for changing several elements to other elements, and had to go through the inventing procedure to gain new effects. The GM tried to limit each effect so it was less effective than a traditional power by half or more. Transmutation became another form of Magic Spells in this case.

It's one of many powers I've always thought of as the drywall mud of character creation, i.e. malleable enough to fill the cracks
• Animated Servant
• Bionics
• Body Power
• Chemical Power
• Heightened Senses
• Magical Spells
• Mutant Power
• Pet
• Psionics
• Special Weapon
• Vehicle
• Willpower