I can agree that the reasoning you went through to pick Psy-Surge, and how then Sun Snake the character proceeded to implement it as less of a tool for offense, and more a means of projecting his ideas outside, was the real key to Sun Snake's Lorecircle achievement. In my eyes, his lack of it was always due to a misplaced sense of what it was about, seeing Psy-Surge as a weapon, whereas what it's really about is projecting one's mind outside of one self, which can be used as a weapon, but doesn't means to be. Instead, it's about growing one's ego to the point where one is willing to impose it on others, although in Sun Snake's case, this was mostly a natural extention of his constant need for communication and speechs. :)

Anyway, the point I was making is that breaking past that block to learn Psy-Surge was the crucial step of Sun Snake moving toward learning the Lorecircle, even if Nexus came after. Which I suppose sheds some light on how I see the Lorecircles as a whole, in the context of the narrative and how all your characters can shape it.

Kind of similar path there, in that initially I wasn't too sure if Swift's evolution would affect her abilities or not.
The only ones I was sure about at the start were the ones I already envisioned her as having "awakened" in her past.
(I'm not too sure if Dusk has already heard about Swift's past from Peacock, since he clearly knows it, so I won't spoil it just in case) :)

Suffice to say that her disciplines were awakened in a traumatic way at a young age, and they were the ones which she naturally rediscovered during her training as a result of that (to the point where she once wondered how her powers would have developed if she'd had to discover them on her own).

The abilities she had as the "Ghost of Anskaven" were enhanced speed, agility and balance (represented by Huntmastery), the ability to see hidden traps clearly (represented by a Pathsmanship Improvement), and the ability to fade from sight and blur her form to make her difficult to target effectively (Invisibility and an Improvement for it).
There was also an ability with weapons that had weakened over time as she fought against that dark side of herself (hence why she only had Weaponskill, rather than the more advanced Weaponmastery).
The damage her mind suffered during that time also inhibited her ability to shield herself psychically, causing her to have difficulty in learning Psi-Screen.  (And her inability to fully control her emotions sometimes caused her to "project" traumatic flashbacks at moments where she felt particularly intense anger, fear, etc.  She didn't actually realise she was doing that until someone mentioned they picked up something like that).
It also gave her an intense phobia of mental contact, first hinted at by her reaction to being Mind Charmed by the Brotherhood mage early on.  As well as her apparent fear of Blue Snake and his habit of searching the minds of those near him.  (Another thing that made it harder for her to learn Psi-Screen, as someone would have to try to infiltrate her mind to let her practice it).

Regaining all of those abilities (as I gained them during the game) was a part of her development, symbolised by learning to exert her own control over the "Ghost".  Something that was made far easier by the forest dragon teaching her how to shield her mind properly, making her feel much safer and more confident in exploring her abilities as she could also shut out unwelcome intrusions.

But whether she learned Weaponmastery or not was uncertain at first.  I had planned on giving her that one, but at the same time, her evolution might have continued to fight against her "killer" side, which it did.  So she never really attained the level of lethal skill with a dagger that she was truly capable of if she was still fighting "angry".  It's kind of delayed development though.  She will regain that ability eventually, just not during the time remaining in this game, and now it'll be a more "controlled" form of the ability, no longer "fighting angry" as she would have done if she'd learned it earlier.

There were two main elements I had intended as being able to influence her development from the start.

The first being the other players and their treatment of her (although I quickly realised that might not have as much of an effect as I'd intended, since we seemed to be a group of sullen loners who didn't talk much, hehe.  So the idea of her projecting flashbacks was kind of a way of shaking things up a little there.  Looking back, I feel like I was playing it a bit too heavy though, not so sure it was the right thing to do after all).
Though the final test for that was whether or not they still accepted her as one of them after finding out about her past.  Getting over a hurdle she was actually afraid of from the start, really opening up about herself and not having to hide any more.

The second influential element was whether or not she managed to rescue Silver Raven.
If she hadn't been assigned to the team sent to find him, there was a distinct possibility that she would try to sneak away and either join the other team or follow them at a distance, possibly helping them out or simply eavesdropping to find out everything they learned.
With her mind occasionally "leaking" weird images, it's probable she would have been detected eventually, if not immediately.  But she wouldn't have given up on that attempt easily.
If Silver Raven had died, it's likely she might have snapped, becoming driven by the desire to kill the ones responsible.

So the choice between recovering her full ability to stab things repeatedly until they stop moving, or learning stuff from Silver Raven, became a symbolic representation of the changes in her mind.
Creation replaces destruction.
In the end, Silver Raven's influence on her, and a combination of god-sent hints in the form of items, and the fact that the Sommerswerd recognised her as a Kai, and the other characters accepting her as one of them, as well as a few personal revelations, locked her onto her "Redemption Path".
So she's now about as stable as she's likely to get in the time remaining.  Strong enough to face her own inner demons of her past and conquer them.  (Something that will most likely be visited in an epilogue if she survives all the way to the end).

Phew, that ended up being longer than I expected...  :)

TL:DR - Lore Circles just didn't fit with how she grew over time.  If she had failed to rescue Silver Raven and gone looking for gruesome murderous vengeance, I would have aimed for the Lore Circle of Fire (for Weaponmastery, and since my original vision of this version of Swift had her fight with dual-wielded daggers).
This message was last edited by the player at 00:21, Fri 07 July 2017.

It fits if someone was trying to abandon one path for the other, that they might not have a lorecircle, which seems to indicate a dedicated focus. Swift Fox has dropped the drive that would have put her in the lorecircle of fire, and is instead simply learning what she can - it would eventually lead to another lorecircle, but the longer way around. Which is basically what's happened to Sun Snake, he's a second batch Kai but he's taken this long and gone a weird way to get to a different path (the original Kai character strongly suggested solaris as a destination)


And it was Sun Snake that picked up on thw Swift Fox flashes, but at the time assumed it was Rain Feather and spoke to her privately about it later! And then discovered the mistake and that it was either Alyne or Swift Fox instead :)

Ah yeah, I remember that caused some confusion at the time, hehe :)

Pretty sure there was someone else who actually mentioned it to her though, might have been Dusk Rat or Laughing Shark.  That's when she first realised that her own inner hell wasn't quite as "inner" as she'd thought.

Also, something that struck me as interesting was the character of Sylon.
The way he seemed to really tick Swift off so much was because he reminded her of herself as she once was.  Just a mindless puppet, except he had no desire to escape that situation, something that she couldn't understand, as she had already lived that and would have quite happily chosen death over a return to that situation.
So in a way, she would probably have considered killing him as an act of mercy more than just removing a possible dangerous enemy.
But at the same time, she pitied him for it.  Thinking he just didn't know any better, that his mind had completely broken and he had accepted he only existed for that purpose.  In the end, that's why she chose to let him live, even though leaving the situation unchecked continued to bother her for some time.
(At the time I wasn't sure if Shadow had created him that way on purpose just to act as a sharp poke to Swift's character evolution.  It was a very interesting coincidence if not) :)

As it tends to be the case for these things in this game, it was a bit of both - the character always existed as Colin's chief enforcer, and always had that general personality, but when I realized the existing parallels with Swift Fox, I tweaked him a bit to make them more striking. :)

Yeah, Dusk Rat picked one or two of Swifty's accidental projections ;). Can't remember if she mentioned it to her but it's possible she would have done, especially if it was apparent to Dusk Rat that Swifty didn't know she was doing it.

Since it seems unlikely to come up before the game is done, I'll tell everyone Dusk Rat's backstory afterwards and you can see how she ended up so fed up with humans all the time ;). As to her forward movement, I figure she has one of two paths she may follow as a result of current/upcoming events. Both are kind of similar but one is rather more preferable to me than the other ;).

So Dusk Rat will be the final boss for the rest of us to fight? ;)

Special ability:  Summon Animal Army!  :D

Regarding Lorecircles, I also thought of those as grouping of disciplines that represent some aspect of Kai powers: L. of Fire as the offensive specialization, L. of Solaris as the scout/infiltrator specialization; L. of Spirit as the psychic specialization; L. of Light as the life force specialization.

As for you extension of the original composition:
General notes:
- I like that you made them more balanced - definitely in terms of number of disciplines needed for each Lorecircle. :) That's not the only thing, of course, although an important one.
- In the books it was difficult to achieve the balance, since in terms of keeping things simple, only CS and EP bonuses were the direct result of achieving a specific Lorecircle. Of course, there are situations when the player is asked if he achieved a specific Lorecircle (or the whole Lorecircle gives a bonus to a dice roll/RNT), but there are too few, I feel. Otherwise, L. of Spirit and L. of Solaris seem quite balanced, but as I say: more situations where the whole Lorecircle would allow a player to achieve something, would be nice (then again, in a book, with a strict limit of number of sections, that's hard to achieve). In case of L. of Fire and Light, it'd be nice if they could be use more freauently, but with lesser effects - that way the quick achievement of these would be both rewarding but not obvious picks.
- [SPOILER ALERT for Dusk Rat] By the way, I always strived to complete the L. of Light, despite it not being the most "cost-effective" choice :) and then prayed to Kai and Ishir (and even Naar :D )for really good luck. And once I even managed to beat both the Chaos-master and Zhenga - since I failed to hide from that dragon without L. of Solaris :D (if my mind is not failing me)
- I like that there are far broader ways how to benefit from Lorecircles in this game; and not to mention we can always try to do something that's not explicitly stated in the rules thread (as long as it make sense)

as for the composition...
L. of Fire:
- Battle Magic addition feels like a natural choice
- Nexus is also something, I imagine, fits in because of the offensive potential (throwing objects/people around; manipulating elements, especially fire; a number of improvements related to battle)
- allowing double-wielding is a really cool bonus, which can only be achieved with this Lorecircle

L. of Spirit:
- actually, I think it was a good choice to leave it as in the books :) (the) four disciplines feel about right

L. of Moon:
- it's good to see the magic-related disciplines to have their own "family"
- I see Craftsmanship to fit in, because it allows a Kai to work with material's supernatural/magical properties when creating items
- Curing is an intriguing addition to me; I'm not saying it does not fit in, it is interesting; I can probably see it as a way to connect energies of living organism (and perhaps soul) with the magic in the surrounding world.
Say, Shadow, did you consider including Herbmastery instead of Curing? Or would it then feel like too much "new" disciplines would be a part of it?

L. of Solaris:
- seems like just exactly the combination of abilities(=disciplines) one would need to gain a deeper understanding of the "outdoors' world" and be in a harmony/sync with it
- I also understand Animal Control (and Herbmastery in regards to plants) to give a Kai Master the ability to adapt the mindset of "the law of the jungle"/"the fittest survive" and become a more skilled hunter

L. of Light:
- I understand it exactly as said in the Lorecircle's description, with the four disciplines representing the different aspects of life force: Divination = soul, Curing = body, Animal Control = animals, Herbmastery = plants, but also Herbmastery+Curing = effects of various substances on life
- what is intriguing for me, is the addition of Kai-Alchemy; again, not disputing it, I guess it's like the "fifth element" to the four I mention above; or to say in a different manner: a reflection of the material world - the world of energy (Cur.+AC+Herbm. being in the material world, K.-Alchemy being in the world of energy, and Divin., as the representation of soul, linking the two worlds)

Phew, sorry for the long post, sometimes I can really get broad when asked for an analysis. :) (as for the connection between important NPCs and their Disciplines' choice, I'll probably get into that in an another post)
This message was last edited by the player at 19:28, Fri 07 July 2017.

Well, I liked the long post, Hornet, so feel free to get 1 FP for it - it might not be very useful as the game is near its end, but you never know, right? ;)

As for why Herbmastery isn't part of the Lorecircle of the Moon, is because it would not fit at all with the concept I picked to build the Lorecircle; same reason why Craftsmanship isn't part of the Lorecircle of Fire, really - it would seem to fit, but if one knows what the Lorecircle is actually about, it really doesn't.

But your analysis of the Lorecircle of Solaris and Light were very good and close to what I was thinking when I envisioned them - Light in particular. The reason Kai-Alchemy is part of it is, in a sense, the same why Battle Magic is part of Fire; because their mechanics (not the effects) tie in with the key concept behind each Lorecircle.

Ooh, thanks for the FP! Who knows, maybe after all I will enact my secret plan to pounce at Shining Peacock's back with dagger in Hornet's hands (Swift will surely not mind stealing her trick, will you, Swift? ;) ).

Hmm, I think I can see what you mean.

You guys surely don't mind if I pick up some popcorn and take a seat to watch the ending, do you?

Sorry for the giant flake-off.  Things have been rather, well... blah and crap for the last few years.  Hasn't really been a lot of time for fun and everything, but I'm happy to be back to be able to watch the ending.  Let's make it great, yeah?  :)

We'll try our best, and I for one am very happy to have you back, Rain! ^_^

Welcome back Rain Feather!

Hope we can entertain you now you're back - and sorry we seem to keep breaking your characters :( We're remarkably not killing each other now the ending is starting to come about - well, except Swift Fox is ready to stab us in the back no doubt out of habit, and Water Hornet wandered off most likely to plot our demise. But otherwis,e all good!

Ooh, hello Rain! :D
Don't worry, the story hasn't forgotten you - you came up in a recent IC conversation and caused a bit of a stir between a couple of people ;).

You should know that Fox went on a small brutal killing spree after Rains demise 0.0

I don't know - does killing one single person counts as a killing spree?

I mean, sure, that was one pretty brutal kill - bisected from the head down, if I remember correctly? - and the one he killed was the High Priest of Vashna, so it certainly counts as revenge, but I'm not sure if it should qualify as a killing spree.

Although I freely admit that my English isn't the best, what with not being native and all. Anybody can clear up for me if Sabre's definition is appropriate or not on this?

:)

Hence why I used the word small lol.

I see. :)

Swift Fox, Sun Snake, I'm giving you two the chance to comment/answer Sabre Fox declaration in the main thread before I make White Mantis speak again - I'm very curious to see the interactions between you all on it all.

Only because he couldn't bring him back to life and kill him again several more times :)

I saw!

But to get on the bandwagon, well...

Rain, well... her powerset and evolution could have gone one of two ways.  Originally, she was going to end up just focusing on those Disciplines that would have involved keeping people at a distance and using her strengths- her mental powers- to wreak havoc from a distance.  Starting out with Psi-Surge, Psi-Shield, and Kai-Alchemy, being ready to take Divination at some point because, well, tie in Divination with Psi-Surge and it's pretty much the mental version of a smash-and-grab as far as getting details out of someone's mind- they might know something is up, but at the same time, are they going to be in any condition to do anything about it?

From there, it would have been simple to grab Nexus as a fifth to get the Lore-Circle of Solaris and turn her into a mental terror on the battlefield.  I mean, free multi-target P.T.A.s?  Yes, please!

Then she had to go all dark and everything, and for a while there, it was almost like she was going to go as close to the edge as possible without falling- maybe even over if there'd been a good enough reason for her to.  With all of her mental baggage, enough distrust and hatred of her might have sent her off with the Drakkarim to simply live and work with them.  She didn't think she had a choice- the Order would have hated her, and as soon as her secret was out, that would have been it- she would have left the Maaken team and gone as far as she could.

But once the acceptance started, well... it was enough to get her to look at herself and to do some deep thinking- and to finally admit that her goal wasn't what she'd been seeking at all- in the end, she didn't want power- Rain just didn't want to be alone and feared any more.  She craved people, friends, the light- to spread her wings and to seek out the sun, you might say.

That brought about Curing as her next discipline instead- realizing the light inside instead of darkening even further.  After that... I imagine the sky would have been the limit.  Her CS really didn't lend to a physical build- someone who trained enough to keep in practice, but would be hard-pressed to hold her own in a physical fight.  But as a caster-type, striking from the back row with spell and mind, but able to heal as needed- playing a mix of damage and support, as it were- could have been very effective had she gotten enough in the way of WP support.

WP was really Rain's downfall- if she runs out of WP, well, she doesn't have much to fall back on besides her weak physical skills.

Clearly Sabre Fox killed each body part individually in height order. And it was one one part after another, so that would make him a serial killer... *runs*


I think WP is everyone's downfall! At least Swift Fox has advanced so much she can start making WP generating shinies for everyone! Pity Rain Feather wasn't around to get one of those goodies and become scarily powerful with no limits. No, wait, that doens't sound as good when I say it out loud...

Ah! You have no idea how much irony is there in that statement, Sun Snake... I think I'll let it up to Swift Fox to explain why I say that, though. If she wants to, that is! ^_^

Swift Fox seems worryingly silent on that one...

Trying to figure it out.
I'm a bit too thick to get irony, hehe :)

Think back for a second, if you will.  Wasn't someone sneaking off to 'meditate' a bit in the beginning of the thread and managing to pull WP from somewhere when by all means she ought to have been out for everything she used?

It's not hard if you know what to look for! :)