Discussion: Game Design Thread.   Posted by Master Chronicler.Group: 0
Inebra Truestone
 player, 3 posts
Thu 8 Dec 2016
at 07:37
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Starmaster:
The main reason I suggested coming up with a system first is so that we don't build something on a foundation of sand. It's about interpreting our goals in that system rather than try to shoehorn a new idea into it.

I'm most familiar with d20 (AD&D/D&D) in its various incarnations. The fundamental d20 system is that you roll a d20 to determine success at a task. High is good, low is bad. GM sets a Target Number (TN). There can be any number of modifiers to the roll.

My question with it, though, is a range of 20 enough to deal with things like snuffing out a star?

Not if you ask anyone who knows anything about the numbers relating to stars... or anyone who's been on the sjgames forums

quote:
d100 seems a bit too much leeway and number-crunchy.

Can't object to d100, but for me it's less than ideal for being linear rather than because of giving too much leeway

quote:
Perhaps a d30 is better middle ground...?

I like the implication of "beyond d20" with this one. Plus I own a physical d30 and only get to use it for random dates.

quote:
D&D 5e has the Advantage/Disadvantage system: if you have the Advantage in a situation, you roll d20 twice and take the higher result (Disadvantage = roll twice, take lower).

We could add a higher advantage--roll d20 three times, take higher.

No objection to advantage/disadvantage system, especially if mortals roll d20s and immortals/gods roll d30. Gives the mortals a chance to say they harmed a god... or something.

quote:
There's also the option of bonus dice. Small bonus = add 1d4, great bonus = roll 1d12. There could even be multiple bonuses that way. Different conditions produce more bonuses.

This would be an interesting variable stand-in for the Godbound +4. Would not mind Stacking Axioms adding +d4/+d8/+d12 if only because of their variable

quote:
Then there's the 7th Sea roll/keep system--roll xd10, keep x-yd10. Example: roll 6d10 but keep only 3. A roll of 10 explodes, also.

I like d10 dice pools in general, but my playtests don't specifically concern themselves with exploding or roll and keep. Fairly neutral on those aspects of it.

quote:
Or there's the Karma die system--roll an additional d6; 1 = failure, 6 = success. The result of the d20 then tells you how badly you failed or succeeded.

Couldn't tell you about that one.

quote:
What I'm getting it is: what do the rest of you think would be a workable system? Not necessarily adapting the whole d20/Pathfinder system, for instance. After all, a deity could have 500 feats! Who could ever keep track of all of them?

Not me, but I could keep track of say... 20-30 Moves

quote:
Two things to keep in mind: 1) d20 is a simple system; 2) a more complicated system will be harder to tweak into what you want.

I've spent most of my RPG experience doing that, so I can't say I agree.

quote:
On the subject of good vs. evil... well, it depends on how you define evil, really. Technically speaking, every alignment comes with its own built-in Drives and Motivations, though there are additional ones that can be applied.

Right, which is what I was getting at. That very subjectivity to mortals makes alignment too much of a mortal thing. Take a quote from one who is supposed to be Good

quote:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


I don't really see any good in that, but I do see a motivation to gain worshipers that's fairly consistent with the rest of the doctrine, even if 'good' isn't. And if real world interpretations of morality are off the table after I tried to take Alignment off the table, then this is certainly not the place for me.

quote:
For example, Darkseid's goal is to destroy all life in the universe (depending on which story you've read lately). Is that Evil?

The fact that I can't say, and gods don't have to, is precisely the point.

quote:
Another issue: where does a god's power come from? Are we saying there's this Divine Power that they tap into? Is it some sort of Cosmic Energy? Is it the power of the Soul? The power of Life?

The Power of the Soul makes for an interestingly political game as gods jockey for higher sentient believer count. No opinion on the others except to say there doesn't seem to be any point in awe-striking power if none of the lives impacted by it are capable of adequately expressing the awe.

This message was last edited by the player at 19:23, Fri 09 Dec 2016.

Master Chronicler
 GM, 1 post
 Dreamer of the Sourcemind
 Curator of Cosmic Lore...
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 17:13
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Xanthe:
If the original gothenem guy was at the helm I'd be back in an instant. All subsequent incarnations (including myself) have fallen somewhat short I'm afraid.


I hope you consider sticking around Xanthe as Gothenem has returned and I understand your frustration with false starts. As such I have sent out the call to him and others rather than doing it myself. I hope you consider sticking around to at least see what becomes of the game. If however you still are no longer interested I will remove you but you will be missed.

Dice

I was thinking of some sort of dice pool concept but I also like the Advantage/Disadvantage from 5e. My original thought was that a character could build a dice pool gaining additional die from different things like Axiom, Level, Sphere, Role or Position within divine politics, additional Gifts that might grant additional die etc. I can't remember what game it was from but they had dice pools and you really only used the two highest rolls instead of being overwhelmed with too many dice.

Alignment

I agree that alignment could be irrelevant in a god game and motivation/drive might be better suited. In fact the Cortex Plus Hackers Guide has ways to use motivation as a driving force in a game and is a system that I might be able to get behind.

Power Source

I see characters deriving their power from four possible sources.

Slaying a power
Making a pact or covenant with another power
Drawing energy from their worshipers
Drawing energy from a plane, eventually creating a Home Plane

I have more ideas and thoughts on power sources and I will get to more detail when I have more time this weekend.

This message was last updated by the GM at 17:13, Fri 09 Dec 2016.

Arulas Sakarian
 player, 1 post
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 18:51
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Hello new player/potential helper. I have been quasi-stalking this discussion for a couple of days now. Also one of the people that was willing to help flesh this out and get it running. That being said my input is thus..

1) Shadowrun has what is called a Karma pool. It is a variable amount of points that you can spend to adjust your dice pools. They have several types, but that is the most important one. The others adjust limited actions, but refresh. That being said it could allow the flexibility that you guys are talking about. Also uses derived dice pools for hacking, combat, and magic.

2) The base system isn't terribly important as gods, even demigods or godlings, are beyond mere mortals. It does however save us a lot of time. Of the group that most people have suggested D20 is probably the most versitile. I have a soft spot for SAS  or a d10 base. D30 I think is good for the gods themselves. Just substitute the d30 for a D20 if we use the D20 system.

3) For the gods every system has one thing in common. They have sets of powers. The different types cover the different themes. The God of magic has very little Aptitude in stand up warfare. The God of War however has limited utility in magic. This is generally as it should be. There are some overlap In those cases. The God of oceans would rival both gods and Truthfully might surpass them involving Naval warfare or ocean magic.

4) Evolving the gods should be done involving your theme more than anything. The God of murder is not gonna gain followers by sing and throwing flower filled parades. The God of bards generally shouldn't from killing great numbers of people.
Inebra Truestone
 player, 4 posts
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 19:35
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
I didn't notice something about the last post I replied to

quote:
Other possibilities could be a deck of cards (requires interpretation of suits and face cards),

I LOVE the idea of cards as interpretation. I don't necessarily see suit designations as being specifically required as they were in Castle Falkenstein, but I do think it would be interesting if everyone built poker hands from 2 cards they were built, and a Texas Holdem style "Flop" held by AO, and the other gods could oppose them on the Turn and the River, or they could just fold and let it happen, Then all involved players' hands and the Flop/Turn/River could be re-dealt.

quote:
bidding system (like with Amber),

seems like it would eliminate the possibility that lesser gods win. Can't immediately come up with a stop gap for that other than constant caution.

quote:
a points/rewards system (spend 3 Karma Points to perform the task/if you succeed, get one back)...

Seems like there ought to be some benefit to losing. Perhaps everyone gets Rank based Karma and it resets every level. Then failures don't gain Karma back directly, but they mark experience. Then when they level, they gain back level based Karma.

quote:
Champions 'bucket of dice' system seems a bit much, but could accommodate a broader range of uses.

I'm not familiar with Champions specifically, but can't object to Gods having buckets of dice.

This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 19:35, Fri 09 Dec 2016.

Arulas Sakarian
 player, 2 posts
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 19:53
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
A rarely used power in Champions was called Variable Power Pool. For X amount of points ranging from 0 to infinite could could do anything. The VPP was basically the domain of the gods or supreme bad guy.

For instance Doctor Devatator could throw a 100d100 damage Attack that could not be defeated, but he had to know exactly who and when they would arrive. Not all VPP were so restrictive. Some were illusion spell pools and the like. Some were like Forge from X-Men give him a hammer and nails and he could build the Time machine from spit and bailing wire.
Inebra Truestone
 player, 5 posts
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 20:06
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Alright, yeah. Epic can certainly be done in a different way, and is just as often better served to do so.
Starmaster
 player, 3 posts
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 20:44
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
As for deity power, I was asking about what the power is, rather than how a deity can get more. Clearly, slaying another deity wouldn't matter what the power was, since you'd be getting the same as what you already have. Sounds a bit like Highlander, though. I think I'd rather see an option for getting all the power, some of the power, or even none. In the latter case, someone could steal it out from under you.


I'm not grasping how you see a Texas Hold'em card array working. If it was confrontational, maybe. If it's just performing a task, however, well... maybe. In Hold'em, it's all about betting on what you have and sometimes what you don't have, and what you hope your opponent doesn't have. I'm having trouble seeing that working here, particularly in a play-by-post game.


Re cards... keep in mind that there are three types of card decks: standard, tarot and custom.

Cards are going to require more work to figure out what each one means, including whether there are jokers, wild cards, trump cards, etc. As much fun as it would be, however, I'd stay away from Dragon Poker.

With a tarot deck, I could see each deity choosing a Major Arcana card to represent him/his power, and when it comes up, it's essentially a trump card or a wild card.

The only point of a custom deck is to have options that can't be covered by a regular deck.


As for the bidding system, it's about bidding on different aspects during an encounter. If going first is important to you, bid high. But you won't have much left for subsequent actions. I never actually played Amber, and so never fully grasped the bidding system. I just mentioned it because someone else might be familiar with it.


Dice pools fall into two categories (as far as I'm aware): totals and successes. With 'totals', you just add up everything to get a final number. It can be a bit annoying to role 20d6 and add them, a little worse with d10s. This is less of a problem on RPoL, though, as the dice roller adds for you.

With 'successes', you count up only those dice that roll a '6' (or whatever). Some also subtract all '1's. Fate/Fudge is this concept boiled down to its basics.

There was a time ('the good old days') when buckets of dice was just a cool idea! I think that was mostly because of the novelty (most games only had 2 dice) and the 'more is better' idea. It just felt cool to roll 20d6 at a time. We ignored the pain-in-the-ass counting.

I'd rather steer away from the dice pool approach because it's a lot harder to comprehend the odds. Most players will just think of it as 'buckets of dice'.


Another thing to consider is that multiple systems can be used; we aren't limited to using just one. Cards, for example, might be for confrontations among deities. A d30 with Advantage/Disadvantage and multiple dice modifiers could just be used for tasks.

This complicates things a bit more, but the dice system is rather straight-forward.


After considering these options, my first choice is a d20/d30 system, with Advantage/Disadvantage. It's simple enough, and provides the range we need. Once we hammer out the basics, we can consider adding other things.


Anyway, you probably have an idea now of why I suggested multiple threads for the design elements. At least start a second one called Design Element: Power Source. You might even want a third one now Design Element: Deity Definition.
Inebra Truestone
 player, 6 posts
Fri 9 Dec 2016
at 22:39
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Starmaster:
I'm not grasping how you see a Texas Hold'em card array working. If it was confrontational, maybe. If it's just performing a task, however, well... maybe. In Hold'em, it's all about betting on what you have and sometimes what you don't have, and what you hope your opponent doesn't have. I'm having trouble seeing that working here, particularly in a play-by-post game.

Well to be clear, what I said about it was that it would be interesting. It may or may not work. It's not hard to have AO substitute a target number for the player to meet before the River. Using poker hand rankings, and assigning a handful of benchmark values:

Hypothetical Values:
Rank     Name (value)
0        Five of a kind (100)
1        Straight flush (90)
2        Four of a kind (80)
3        Full house (70)
4        Flush (60)
5        Straight (50)
6        Three of a kind (40)
7        Two pair (30)
8        One pair (20)
9        High card (1-10 for numbers, call it 15 for faces/aces)


quote:
As much fun as it would be, however, I'd stay away from Dragon Poker.

Hahaha! I'm neutral on the subject.

quote:
With a tarot deck, I could see each deity choosing a Major Arcana card to represent him/his power, and when it comes up, it's essentially a trump card or a wild card.

That would be cool, although I understand there are a variety of Tarot decks. I think it would be neat if one's axiom included what Arcana was most symbolic to their ends. I think mine would be The Lovers. it's what I often get on Persona based personality quizzes.

quote:
As for the bidding system, it's about bidding on different aspects during an encounter. If going first is important to you, bid high. But you won't have much left for subsequent actions. I never actually played Amber, and so never fully grasped the bidding system. I just mentioned it because someone else might be familiar with it.

I like bidding as a form of initiative to avoid having that particular roll to bog down action.

quote:
With 'successes', you count up only those dice that roll a '6' (or whatever). Some also subtract all '1's. Fate/Fudge is this concept boiled down to its basics.

I like having a level based number of fudge dice, with Axioms adding Fudge Dice.

quote:
I'd rather steer away from the dice pool approach because it's a lot harder to comprehend the odds. Most players will just think of it as 'buckets of dice'.

in my experience, having capped dice pools makes that quite manageable, although I can see your point.

quote:
Another thing to consider is that multiple systems can be used; we aren't limited to using just one. Cards, for example, might be for confrontations among deities. A d30 with Advantage/Disadvantage and multiple dice modifiers could just be used for tasks.

This complicates things a bit more, but the dice system is rather straight-forward.

After considering these options, my first choice is a d20/d30 system, with Advantage/Disadvantage. It's simple enough, and provides the range we need. Once we hammer out the basics, we can consider adding other things.

Actually that gives me a thought: Add in a d10 for mortals, reserve D20 for Gods with no Axioms relevant to the task, and d30 if they do have an Axiom relevant to the task. Maybe grant Advantage if multiple axioms apply for one deity. Just spitballing on that I haven't really thought out the ramifications.
Gothenem
 GM, 738 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 03:25
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
I do sort of like the Divine Rank system that D&D had, but only on the base level. Divine Ranks are effectively "God Levels" and determine how powerful your divinity is.

I am not 100% sold that divine ranks are based entirely on number of worshipers, but I do think # of worshipers should have some effect on it.

I like the idea that a deity should have more power (Read: Divine Ranks) when in their home, as opposed to anywhere else, and that they should have few (or no) divine ranks when directly on the material plane, which is why gods tend to work through servants, avatars, or worshipers there.

divine powers are a bit more tricky, you don't want some powers to have more utility than others, unless those others are more effective in some way.

Having a power that is a "VPP" or variant power pool, becomes too versatile. The Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability from the D&D 3.X books was similarly too versatile, but at the same time, you don't want gods to not be "godly". Thus a balancing act is definitely required. If we are going to add such powers, they should have a drawback to prevent them from being abused or overused.
Gothenem
 GM, 739 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 03:36
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
In reply to Gothenem (msg # 20):

As for determining successes and failures, I think we should approach things with simplistic dice rolls. I intensely dislike the "bucket of dice" idea and would much prefer simple rolls to determine success.

If we are going a more d20 route (ie. using 20 sided dice to determine success of a task), then for deities, I would like to use 2d12 for the same rolls. This eliminates the "auto 1 failure" and gives the possibility of critical success on a much larger margin (20 - 24). Of course, determining what is "mortal level" and what is "deity level" or "epic level" still needs to be determined, but that seems to be best. d30 I think would be too much.

Of course, with a dice roller like RPoL's, we could do some weird things like 2d11 or 2d13 or 3d7 or something odd like that.
Arulas Sakarian
 player, 3 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 05:22
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
It seems to be that the majority are leaning towards a D20 base at least to me. Since the majority are leaning that way at least for the basic "mortal" I suggest we adopt that. Which gives us a solid base from which to work. At the least for the mortals.

Now it seems that we all agree gods should have power level tiers. Ranging from the demi power to over powers of D&D to Hero to Demigod to God of Scion. D&D has five and Scion three. So split the difference and set it at four. The two lower levels would have relatively minor differences between the two, but would be a vast difference between those and the upper two. For the time being let us call the pairs Varsity and Junior Varsity. So that the pairs look like this

1)Godlings
2)Demi power

3)Full God
4)Primus

Mind you just working titles.

Godlings while powerful are not totally immune to mortals. Sufficiently powerful mortals could best or even defeat one with enough time and preparation. Make them hungry to establish their faiths and develop ties to the greater godly community.
Master Chronicler
 GM, 2 posts
 Dreamer of the Sourcemind
 Curator of Cosmic Lore...
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 06:56
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
I like keeping things simple so yes a d20 model seems the way to go. I like Advantage and Disadvantage if an action falls within your Sphere you have Advantage. Perhaps d30 or additional dice can be gained as a power rises in rank they might end up with more abilities to fiddle with the dice.  Most of the material I do want to use originates from d20 sources but I want it to also be flexible so an avatar could be built using D&D, Pathfinder even Mutants & Masterminds. I want to keep actual rolls of the die down to a minimum and focus more on story. Dice rolls really should only come into play when you are attempting a Challenge or in confrontation with another power.

I do not want to eliminate the critical fail on a one until the character reaches say Greater Power status or perhaps it is a Gift one can buy at some point. There are drawbacks to a power investing itself into the world. They may become bound to another character or location linked by fate suffering terrible effects. This was handled in the Scion RPG. Yet there are other mysteries and often gods underestimate their enemies even if they are mortals. Yes gods can fail and when they do they should fail just as epicly (is that a word?) as they could succeed.
Xanthe
 player, 426 posts
 Stealer of Knowledge
 Thief of Power
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 07:33
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
From a personal point of view, the length of time it takes to adjust a character from one system to another is an enormous undertaking. Xanthe is a greater power approaching primal power in stature from my understanding and I can't even begin to comprehend what that means in terms of his scope.

As a system, 2d10 with a target number is one that gravitates to skills being passed or failed. There is a definite skewing towards success rather than failure that 1d20 is prone to. I agree with Goth about Alter Reality being powerful and rather flexible, but as gods we are definitely powerful and able to affect reality heavily wherever we are standing.

Our avatars were useful, but brought into the game a complexity to the GM for tracking that was beyond his control. Xanthe had 10+ avatars all working on different tasks, plus followers, champions etc.

I pitied Gothenem when I asked him for an update because I knew how much work was required just keeping one player abreast of his plans in progress.

In short though, whatever system we play needs to be simple enough to establish a pecking order and a broad outline of our skills. Amber has a system that allows just that, though perhaps the attributes it states are rather few in number.
Starmaster
 player, 4 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 07:57
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
DESIGN ELEMENT #1: Core Mechanics


As I mentioned above, the bucket of dice system is about maturity... not personal maturity, but industry maturity. It's also about what you got use to. If that's the system you've been using for years, you aren't necessarily going to want to change. The problem with the 'you can't teach an old dog a new trick' is that the old dog doesn't WANT to learn a new trick; it isn't that he can't learn.

I understand and appreciate the 'bucket of dice' game mechanic (I have the bucket of dice to prove it... or was that the 'he who has the most dice wins' rule?), but after years of gaming, eventually get tired of rolling them and you realize that the average tends to occur more often than you really want, so you stop rolling and just use the average.

I began my gaming with the d20... way before it was the d20 System, so that's what I'm the most familiar with.

However, I like Gothenem's suggestion about using 2d12. Rolling against a d20, though, may not work out. The average of a d20 is 10.5 (11), while the average of 2d12 is 13. In the middle, that works out okay. But rolling a 20 on a d20 is only a 5% chance. Without crunching the numbers, I don't know what the percentage would be to roll 20-24. At this point, I'm not sure it's relevant.

As for more funky dice rolls, it depends on whether this is meant to be a strictly RPoL game, or whether  you might want to export it to the table top. In that case, wonky dice rolls are going to be restricted to actual dice (even if there is a d7 and a d30).

I'm thinking that we could use 2 dice for (mostly) everything, and call it the Two Dice System. So deities are rolling 2d12, lesser beings are rolling 2d10, 2d8 or 2d6 even. I was thinking this is only regarding deity vs. deity confrontations. Regular mortals would still roll the d20 for normal things.

If mortals engage deities, the deities could add their Divine Level to the dice roll.

We could still keep the Advantage/Disadvantage tool... roll 3d12 and only add the 2 highest. We could even have Double Advantage... roll 4d12 and only add the 2 highest.


DESIGN ELEMENT: Core Mechanics, Part 2--Modifiers and Target Numbers

Before we decide on who's at bat, we should first determine what ballpark we are in.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that no more than +24 modifiers should apply. That would give a maximum result of 48, though we could round it up to an even 50.

If the modifiers get too high, like +100, then the dice roll becomes pointless. Likewise, if both sides have +100 modifiers, then the modifier itself becomes pointless. It's just like scaling it back to the basic 2d12.


Same thing with Target Numbers. That term is fairly generic; Difficulty Class less so, but we could always come up with our own term for it.

In any case, a max TN of 50 seems reasonable, though I concede that rolling 50 on 2d12 with even a +26 modifier and Double Advantage isn't going to happen very often.

Somewhat of a corollary to this is where the modifiers come from, though we can cover this in a different discussion. Off the top of my head (again), modifiers can come from Ability Scores (?), Specific Powers, and Conditions/Circumstances.

The drawback to that is that you can have a +25 Ability modifier, which covers the max modifier. If other mods come into play, how do we limit that?


DESIGN ELEMENT #3: Divine Ranks

I've played with this in my own D&D campaign, and have 7 categories. For playing gods that can progress, I think 4 levels is probably too few. And while I was tempted to adopt the Prestige Class norm of 10 levels, I think that may be too much. The categories I came up with, and along with their Divine Rank (Level) are:

SAINT: 1-3
EXARCH: 4-6
DEMI-GOD: 7-9
MINOR POWER: 10-12
LESSER DEITY: 13-16
INTERMEDIATE DEITY: 17-20
GREATER DEITY: 21-30

The other possibility is Avatars, but that depends on how you define them. I played with the idea of an Avatar gaining enough power to separate itself from the deity that created it. It could be an Exarch or Minor Power, depending on how the deity created it.


Well, that's my 2 cents.
Arulas Sakarian
 player, 4 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 10:29
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Totally unfamiliar with Amber to be honest. Played dozens of other systems. Gyax's D&D was one of the first.

 Avatars separating from the Divinity that created them would be nearly impossible. That would be along the lines of a Third Circle Demon separating from it's Soul Heirarchy without outside help. Exalted reference for those that may be confused. It shouldn't happen.

Again I was suggesting D20 as the mortal base.

I dislike the term Saint. It is generally used for mid-level mortals. That being said to me seven seems like a lot. An unnecessary amount, but that is a knee jerk reaction so I wouldn't put a bunch of stock in it.
Gothenem
 GM, 741 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 13:18
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
regarding Divine Powers (or Divine Gifts, Salient Divine Abilities - heck we need a name for what to call the dang things).
---------------------------------------------------------------------

As for certain divine powers:

Alter Reality: I don't want to do away with it completely. It (perhaps more than any other) is a power that definitely seems godly, but It needs to come with a cost, drawback or other limitations. Perhaps limiting it only to actions that directly affect the deities sphere of influence (portfolio), a temporary or permanent reduction of divine rank, or another cost that would make a deity consider other options before just willy-nilly altering reality to suit his/her/its needs.

Avatars: Yeah, as Xanthe pointed out, keeping track of a deity, 10+ avatars, aspects, worshipers, followers, proxies and allies of each deity is far too much. It is incredibly time-consuming and makes the game far too clunky to effectively run, that said, I don't want to do away with them entirely. I think that allowing them is ok, but each one requires the sacrificing of divinity to create. Effectively, you take your divine ranks to create an avatar, and that avatar is weaker than the deity. If it is killed/destroyed, you loose that power permanently, and you must meet up with your avatar to "re-absorb" it, which means if it is sealed away or trapped, you may be without that power for a long time. You can create multiple ones, but each one uses some of your divine ranks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts?, ideas?

We could, I suppose, compile a list of abilities to pick from, but I'd rather have a general idea of which way we are headed first.
Arulas Sakarian
 player, 8 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 15:15
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Have you read how 3.5 Forgotten Realms dealt with Avatars. Or maybe it was the way that I read it.

Basically you temporarily invest an amount of your divine spark in a vessel, which could be a lot of things generally related to your portfolio. This investment temporarily decreases your divine rank, but it has benefits. The most obvious is that you can be in two places at once. Which is in and of itself a great boon. However the bigger benefit and probably the more powerful one is that you are leaving a portion of your Divinity safe. In truly dire circumstances the avatar can be a sort of divine life boat a diminished portion will survive and eventually regain full power.
Gothenem
 GM, 742 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 16:10
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
In reply to Arulas Sakarian (msg # 28):

3.5 Forgotten Realms used the standard 3.5 Deities and Demigods rule, You, I believe, are referring to the 2nd edition "Faiths and Avatars" Forgotten Realms deities, which, while not statted out (ok, the avatars were, but deities themselves were not), that was how it was handled. In 3.5 all the deity needed was the Avatar Salient Divine Ability which gave them 5 (Lesser Power) to 20 (Greater Power) Avatars of Divine Rank equal to half the deities divine rank. The deity's divine rank never went down.

Alternately, you could be referring to the 3.5 rules for Proxies which allowed a deity to give a divine rank to a follower, which was in both the 3.5 Deities and Demigods and the 3.5 Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons.
Arulas Sakarian
 player, 9 posts
Mon 12 Dec 2016
at 16:59
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
In reply to Gothenem (msg # 29):

Might be. Might very well be, but still the idea has merit.
Master Chronicler
 GM, 9 posts
 Dreamer of the Sourcemind
 Curator of Cosmic Lore...
Tue 13 Dec 2016
at 06:09
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
I like the two dice system idea of 2d12 and separating when they interact with mortals and when they interact with immortals. I am not inclined to thinking in terms of numbers so breaking down percentage of how dice are rolled and bell curves and the like are lost on me. I am willing to give things a try and if they do not work we can make adjustments if things are not working.
Starmaster
 player, 8 posts
Fri 16 Dec 2016
at 05:40
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
The bell curve is just a visual representation of the percentages. You don't really need to know math.

All you need to know with 2 dice is that the numbers in the middle have a greater chance of occurring, while the numbers at either end are rarer.

One of the interesting aspects of 2 dice is when they are different. 1d8+1d12, for instance, gives you that 2-20 range, but the middle numbers have the same chance of occurring, so you get a sort of plateau in the middle. 3.5 introduced that for the encounter table.
The Wilder
 player, 1 post
Fri 16 Dec 2016
at 09:12
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
You should give this a look too when you are thinking of how to run the high scale gods. Will they be capable of changing the world, literally worldbuilding?

This is a link to the website of a game called DAWN of WORLDS, a really cool world building game. It could easily be adapted to your needs here I think. Though we'd have to tinker with the differences for how the sub-immortal character's have to interact, and it seems like a dice system as the others have been suggesting will work out great in almost any situation. Though the qualities you want to look for I think is a system that encourages diversity in styles of deities and can play easily in PbP format with little to no learning curve at all.

Anyways here's the Godly leveled idea these guys had(quite a bit closer to an ACT godgame but with a more limited idea of what you can do. IE: You can't destroy the world with a word):
http://www.clanwebsite.org/gam...ds_game_1_0Final.pdf
Master Chronicler
 GM, 11 posts
 Dreamer of the Sourcemind
 Curator of Cosmic Lore...
Wed 21 Dec 2016
at 05:24
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Yes I have a copy of Dawn of Worlds so I am sure we can get some good ideas from that. So I am going to go ahead and say we are going to go with the 2d12 Two Dice System perhaps adding additional dice with Gifts perhaps some sort of ultimate success when two 12's come up?
Arulas Sakarian
 player, 14 posts
Wed 21 Dec 2016
at 13:53
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
In reply to Master Chronicler (msg # 34):

That works. My suggestion is put up an accepted rules thread and lock it.

This message was last edited by the player at 13:54, Wed 21 Dec 2016.

Master Chronicler
 GM, 16 posts
 Dreamer of the Sourcemind
 Curator of Cosmic Lore...
Mon 16 Jan 2017
at 07:53
Re: Discussion: Game Design Thread
Speaking of threads...

Theogenesis got me thinking of how better to handle threads so that we can see more of what is happening in the game. Previously many had their own individual thread and many players did not see what the other players were doing and it created more work for the GM and less opportunity for interaction. While a player certainly could play behind the scenes maybe because they don't post often others who wish to participate more can if they wish so there are different kinds of RP threads.

RP PUBLIC: Can be in as many of these as you like in addition to your Home Plane. These are public all players can see them most often they are the mortal realms. There may be restrictions on how a character may manifest in these threads. You might be able to send an avatar you might have to use your mortal allies to influence things.  If your character does not have any influence in this realm you might not be able to post in the thread but you will still know what's going on. A Plane that is the Personal Plane of multiple characters would also be public.

RP SECRET: Must gain access to it by finding it's secret. Can also access RP Publics. Your Home Plane if its solely under your control might be secret.

RP NOBLE: Can only be in this thread, no where else, including RP Publics. This Realm requires the full attention of the character. (I am not sure I like the name Noble it is taken from Theogenesis I am willing to change the name if a better one can be suggested.)

RP BROKEN: Can access this as a Public but is removed from all time-streams or is somehow outside reality. Nothing from outside this realm can affect a god in this realm. Not even death. Like the RP Secret you have to find them they are hidden.