Historical Interval 2025-29.   Posted by Referee.Group: 0
Saudi Arabia
 player, 12 posts
Tue 26 Aug 2014
at 13:00
Re: War Round#2 2028
I’m back, after the technical service has changed my router at last.

First of all, let me apologize if my tome was a little harsh last posts, but I wanted to make my complains before the resolution keep going and it was more difficult to fix things (as I still fully believe they must), and that meant I didn’t expect to calm myself down, something I usually try to avoid.

Now that I’ve calmed down, time to explain myself:

I don’t complain about the turn being resolved according 12.10, as I agree we must move on. You say we already in this turn for 4 months, and to this you should add the time the game was on stand-by, making it more than 2 years now. I can even accept the error in seeing the forces Saudi Arabia sent (while this would have needed to be fixed, as they were over half the ground forces, and precisely those already in position)

What I did complain is not having told about it and allowed to calculate things accordingly, assuming that the same forces would have been used in both kinds of war.

Things vary a lot from one kind of war to the other, and forces adequate to regular war are not for quick war, as in the first case it pays to send only your best forces, while in the second case low quality forces count the same than elite ones (for the same country).

Examples of the effects:

  • While each veteran air squadron was worth 267 CP and a green tank brigade 148 CP with the combat rules used, with 12.10 they are worth 59 and 99 respectively, a loss of about 33% of force for the tanks and 78% for the air unit (and that’s not counting 12.9 effect in the latter case). Net effect is that combat power for units sent (as orders were given,so counting forgotten units)) changed from 1958 CPs from air units  and 1334 from ground units to a total 12.10 CP of 1423 (about 57% of reduction in combat power).
  • OTOH, for ISIS, a reserve infantry brigade that was worth 6 CP, is now worth 14 (and again, 12.9 does not affect it), while its reserve tank brigade was worth 28 CP and is now worth 68. It’s true that its green units are also reduced to about 50% their strength, there are few of them, and when 12.9 is not applied in the air phase, this is more than overcome. Its net effect is raising ISIS combat power from about 550 to about 700 (about 27% increase in CP, aside of voiding 12.9).


Examples of decisions taken assuming combat would be with the rules used to then:

  • I decided not to send the NG (reserve) mech forces because they were not needed and they only added 18 CP per brigade (3*7.7^2*0.1), while a regular forces (green) mech unit added 89 (3*7.7^2*0.5), and the NG units would be lost for good if damaged, while the regulars damaged to reserve. With 12.10, each mech unit (regardless of the individual quality) adds 59 CP. Same with the green air units, as they were not needed (they could have helped in the air strike against H19, but were out of range) and would only had raised casualties.
  • Likewise, I didn’t send the armor brigades in the southern border because, as rules stood, there were enough forces for the land offensive, after air units softened the enemy.
  • After agreeing with the Kurds and Iraqis to fight together (while probably not with all their forces), I asked them to keep defensive positions, as forces seemed adequate and this would only had raised losses, should there be any.

With 12.10, all of this is void. Even so, the forces sent would have been a 2:1 (should some of them have not been forgotten), but as I don’t like to attack with less than 3:1, all armor and most NG mech would have been sent, as would green air units (both, MR and support). That would have given me nearly 2300 CP (over the 3:1 looked for), and with addition of Iraqi and Kurd forces (they have, for 12.10 numbers, over 1600 and 450 CP respectively), even in only a 25% of them participated, that would have reached a 4:1 , if more were sent, a 5:1 could not be ruled out. So, even with the roll of 2, result would have been 20/60 or 20/80 (reduced to 20/60 because 12.10 limitation). Even should I go alone (neither Iraqi nor Kurd support), with a 3:1 it would have meant a 20/20. So, even with this 2 in the roll, the attack would not have sucked for me.


And, as I am already complaining, the other thing I complain (in more general terms) is that this turn is becoming too much a mess, with things happening far quicker than we’re allowed to react. Within the time ISIS has raised a whole army comparable in size to the German Herr (Landwehr included), we cannot raise a single unit.

Things became hotter when we have been told to use our reaction PAs. So we had none left, and out only possibilities were to resort to direct military action or to indebt ourselves (at 100% interest to be paid next turn) and jeopardize next turn actions. I know events may develop quite fast, but also the governments (even the EU, known for its slow pace) react, not waiting for the “next turn” to do so. If we are so limited and slowed, so must be the events or the game becomes a true mess where  we can do little more than watching and sending troops, and any political action to avoid war will jeopardize next budget and take the game to a stand still were the players just react to events.

This message was last edited by the player at 18:36, Mon 01 June 2015.

Japan
 GM, 40 posts
Wed 27 Aug 2014
at 17:16
Re: War Round#2 2028
Saudi Arabia:
What I did complain is not having told about it and allowed to calculate things accordingly, assuming that the same forces would have been used in both kinds of war.

GM says: I understand your frustration about the switch. In this case I am afraid I am responsible. I support Kelvin´s decisions as CCR while I recognise that I need to state which rules are applied. In the future I will endevour to avoid similar situations from occuring.

Saudi Arabia:
things happening far quicker than we’re allowed to react. Within the time ISIS has raised a whole army comparable in size to the German Herr (Landwehr included), we cannot raise a single unit.

Good point.
Saudi Arabia:
Things became hotter when we have been told to use our reaction PAs. So we had none left,

Again, my fault.

Saudi Arabia:
If we are so limited and slowed, so must be the events or the game becomes a true mess where  we can do little more than watching and sending troops, and any political action to avoid war will jeopardize next budget and take the game to a stand still were the players just react to events.

Another good point. It is a game and the rules are not perfect, unlike the GM. Kelvin is working tirelessly on them and sometimes mistakes are made in my interpretation of the rules. For now the rules will not be changed (unless Kelvin wants it) but we shall think on how to minimize the problem. Proposals are welcome.

EDIT:
Suggestion to minimize risk of being PAs short:
In the beginning of the 2030 round I will flag a few areas that might be hotspots during the round so that you may spend a PA in your budget if you wish.

Example:
Issues going into 2030
1)North Korea. Tension is at an all time high.
2)Iran is in shambles with no clear way ahead.
3)Egypt, Libya...

This message was last edited by the GM at 17:24, Wed 27 Aug 2014.

Saudi Arabia
 player, 13 posts
Wed 27 Aug 2014
at 18:01
Re: War Round#2 2028
Japan:
Saudi Arabia:
What I did complain is not having told about it and allowed to calculate things accordingly, assuming that the same forces would have been used in both kinds of war.

GM says: I understand your frustration about the switch. In this case I am afraid I am responsible. I support Kelvin´s decisions as CCR while I recognise that I need to state which rules are applied. In the future I will endevour to avoid similar situations from occuring.


Probabaly balme is for eagerness to finish the turn that made Kelvin to hurry and not tell us about the use of 12.10. I guess that's too what made him fail to remember about the Saudi units already in place.

In any case, the idea of the reinforcements going to combat while the troops already in place stay quiet (I guess watching camel races) seems quite odd to me...

Japan:
Saudi Arabia:
things happening far quicker than we’re allowed to react. Within the time ISIS has raised a whole army comparable in size to the German Herr (Landwehr included), we cannot raise a single unit.

Good point.
Saudi Arabia:
Things became hotter when we have been told to use our reaction PAs. So we had none left,

Again, my fault.


I blame for that the multiple GM changes this turn have had, each one having to cope with the previous one decisions (and probably with a diferent point of view).

Japan:
Saudi Arabia:
If we are so limited and slowed, so must be the events or the game becomes a true mess where  we can do little more than watching and sending troops, and any political action to avoid war will jeopardize next budget and take the game to a stand still were the players just react to events.

Another good point. It is a game and the rules are not perfect, unlike the GM. Kelvin is working tirelessly on them and sometimes mistakes are made in my interpretation of the rules. For now the rules will not be changed (unless Kelvin wants it) but we shall think on how to minimize the problem. Proposals are welcome.


Do you ask me for even more proposals/suggestions?

I think I feel even here in Barcelona Kelvin's trembling at the idea, after patiently reading my mails full of them at every rules edition ;). I can swear you what you see in the fórum is only the iceberg top (to Kelvin suffering)...

Japan:
EDIT:
Suggestion to minimize risk of being PAs short:
In the beginning of the 2030 round I will flag a few areas that might be hotspots during the round so that you may spend a PA in your budget if you wish.

Example:
Issues going into 2030
1)North Korea. Tension is at an all time high.
2)Iran is in shambles with no clear way ahead.
3)Egypt, Libya...


Yes, that's a good idea, until some player produces a unexpected (for the others and the GM) crisis with his PAs...

This message was last edited by the player at 18:05, Wed 27 Aug 2014.

Japan
 GM, 41 posts
Wed 27 Aug 2014
at 19:39
Re: War Round#2 2028
Saudi Arabia:
Yes, that's a good idea, until some player produces a unexpected (for the others and the GM) crisis with his PAs...

Ok, I will do that so hold off on the proposals for now :)
Combat Cycle Ref
 player, 47 posts
Wed 27 Aug 2014
at 21:32
Re: War Round#2 2028
>>If we are so limited and slowed, so must be the events or the game becomes a true mess
>>where  we can do little more than watching and sending troops, and any political action to
>>avoid war will jeopardize next budget and take the game to a stand still were the players
>>just react to events.

You have misunderstood, the only problem here is to the player’s dreams of easy galactic domination.  This is a game with no material and very little immaterial rewards, so in addition to the joys of role playing the fun of this game comes from the struggle, the joy of battling through horrible odds on the way to a well-earned victory. If I as a GM do not stress you out over what could be going on than I am just not doing my job. A GM needs make you afraid over what *could* happen so you can enjoy that fear. Did you prepare enough for the storm that might happen? …Are you sure? A GM needs to make you fear the dark so you can savor each and every single step forward.

This message was last edited by the player at 21:56, Wed 27 Aug 2014.

Saudi Arabia
 player, 14 posts
Wed 27 Aug 2014
at 22:00
Re: War Round#2 2028
Combat Cycle Ref:
>>If we are so limited and slowed, so must be the events or the game becomes a true mess
>>where  we can do little more than watching and sending troops, and any political action to
>>avoid war will jeopardize next budget and take the game to a stand still were the players
>>just react to events.

You are forgetting something that I will not, that the only problem here is to the player’s dreams of easy galactic domination.  This is a game with no material and very little immaterial rewards, so in addition to the joys of role playing the fun of this game comes from the struggle, the joy of battling through horrible odds on the way to a well-earned victory.


No easy galactic domination wanted, but aside from its role playing part this game is intended to be a strategic one too (or so I thought), and means to plan are needed.

Combat Cycle Ref:
If I as a GM do not stress you out over what could be going on than I am just not doing my job. <quote Combat Cycle Ref>


And if we find ourselves in a mere spectator role, nearly unable even to react, neither is the GM doing a good job...

Combat Cycle Ref:
A GM needs make you afraid over what *could* happen so you can enjoy that fear. Did you prepare enough for the storm that might happen? …Are you sure?


And does any poreparation make any difference when a change in the way to resolve it makes all your work and numbers senseless and half of your troops stay watching camel races instead of obeying orders?

Does any preparation make any difference when things become hot when you were told to commit your reserves (reaction PA)?

I guess this too long turn has taxed everyone patience and, as told, i blame the eager to finish it for most of the errors done.

Combat Cycle Ref:
A GM needs to make you fear the dark so you can savor each and every single step forward.


So we're playing Call of Cthulhu?
Japan
 GM, 42 posts
Thu 28 Aug 2014
at 06:51
Re: War Round#2 2028
In reply to Saudi Arabia (msg # 107):

You both have valid points. This is a collective endeavour and there is room for both. Ofcourse you both know this but please keep in mind we are still fieldtesting the rules, the turn is looong and frustration is creeping in, and the game will never be as "real" as we want. The main goal is to have fun. More friction will come but every turn we will learn and become better and the game will flow better.

EDIT: Combat Cycle Ref please proceed at your conveniance.

This message was last edited by the GM at 10:59, Thu 28 Aug 2014.

Saudi Arabia
 player, 15 posts
Thu 28 Aug 2014
at 16:06
Re: War Round#2 2028
Japan:
In reply to Saudi Arabia (msg # 107):

You both have valid points. This is a collective endeavour and there is room for both. Ofcourse you both know this but please keep in mind we are still fieldtesting the rules, the turn is looong and frustration is creeping in, and the game will never be as "real" as we want. The main goal is to have fun. More friction will come but every turn we will learn and become better and the game will flow better.

EDIT: Combat Cycle Ref please proceed at your conveniance.


To allow for all of this to be discussed without clogging this thread (and so allowing for the game to keep going), I oppened a thread for it in the game forum. I guess the discussion and the game can run in parallel.
Combat Cycle Ref
 player, 48 posts
Thu 28 Aug 2014
at 21:45
Re: War Round#2 2028
Sorry for the delay, I have been GMing a game of Doctor Who Adventures in Time and Space the RPG. Speaking of which ....Geronimo!!!!

-----------------------------------------

Actions for Russia

WR#2 Russia move from G17 Russia through H19 Georgia, H19 Kurdistan Republic H19 Islamic Caliphate and attacks Islamic Caliphate with
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, BMP-4)
6 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, BMP-4)
2 Green Mechanized Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, BMP-4)
7 Experienced Artillery Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, Various)
10 Experienced Infantry Brigades (Military-Ground tech 8.4, Sol Earth hex G24 17!!!, Security ability, Internal Affairs troops)
From G17 supported by
7 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons (Military-Air tech 8.6, T-50)

Mil Rank 2 nation. Final Combat Strength is 2787

Defender is Islamic Caliphate
1 Reserve Tank Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve Mechanized Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
3 Green Motorized Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
2 Green SAM Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)
4 Green Infantry Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)

Mil Rank 4 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 698

Odds are 2787/698 = 3.9 which becomes 3:1

15:49, Today: Combat Cycle Ref rolled 1 using 1d10. WR#2 Russia attacks Islamic Caliphate.

Results: 40% loss to the Attacker, 20% to defender

Islamic Caliphate says: Allah rewards the faithful!
Russia says: It is soooo on!

----------------------------------------
Hex G18 5 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons (T-50)   enforcing NFZ in H22
        5 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons (Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan planes), enforcing NFZ in H22

---------------------------------------

Russia and Syria attack Syrian insurgents
Russia from H19 Tartus Syria
3 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons (T-50)
              2 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (BMP-4)
with
Syria
5 Green Tank Brigades
5 Green Mechanized Brigades
5 Green Motorized Brigades
10 Green Infantry Brigades
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militias)
4 Green Infantry Brigades (Security Ability)
1 Green Artillery Brigades
4 Green SAM Brigades
8 Green Multi-role planes squadrons
5 Green Multi-role Helicopter squadrons
4 Green IRBM squadrons

Mil Rank 3 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 2996


Defender is Syrian Rebels
30 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia forces)
3   Green Motorized Brigades (ex-Syrian Army)
6   Green Mechanized Brigades (ex-Syrian Army)
1   Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian Army)
2   Reserve SAM Brigades (ex-Syrian Army)


Mil Rank 4 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 689

Odds are 2996/689 = 4.3 which becomes 4:1

16:36, Today: Combat Cycle Ref rolled 2 using 1d10 with rolls of 2. Russia and Syria attack Syrian insurgents.

Results: 20% loss to the Attacker, 60% to defender

Losses
Russia
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade
6 Veteran Mechanized Brigade    4xCD Reserve
2 Green Mechanized Brigade     2xCD Reserve
7 Experienced Artillery Brigade
10 Experienced Infantry Brigades (Sol Earth hex G24 17!!!, Security ability, Internal Affairs troops)    4xCD Reserve
7 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons     3xCD Reserve

Caliphate
1 Reserve Tank Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve Mechanized Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
3 Green Motorized Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)   3xCD Reserve
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
2 Green SAM Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)   2xCD Reserve
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)
4 Green Infantry Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)   3xCD Reserve
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)



-------------------------------------------

Move from E13 Russia through F15 Russia, G17 Russia, H20 Azerbaijan, H20 Kurdistan Republic H20 Iran
11 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, BMP-4)
8 Experienced Infantry Brigades (Military-Ground tech 8.4, Sol Earth hex G24 17!!!, Security ability, Internal Affairs troops)

...but before they can get that far the Azerbaijanis attack

This message was last edited by the player at 23:04, Sun 31 Aug 2014.

Japan
 GM, 43 posts
Fri 29 Aug 2014
at 06:55
Re: War Round#2 2028
Combat Cycle Ref:
Sorry for the delay, I have been GMing a game of Doctor Who Adventures in Time and Space the RPG. Speaking of which ....Geronimo!!!!

No worries.
Germany
 player, 102 posts
Fri 29 Aug 2014
at 11:21
Re: War Round#2 2028

This message was deleted by the player at 11:36, Fri 29 Aug 2014.

Germany
 player, 103 posts
Fri 29 Aug 2014
at 11:55
Let's see if I understand rules well...
Let's see if I undertood well the rules and thier effects:
quote:
from 12.6:

In any attack occurring in an inhabited hex on a Core World, for every 250 Combat Strength points (10 of any WMD tipped weapons employed) of the Attacker that can reach the hex and hit the defender then as collateral damage the population and GDP of that hex is permanently reduced by 1%.


from turn resolution

Combat Cycle Ref:
Actions for Saudi Arabia
<snip>
Mil Rank 3 nation. Final Combat Strength is 869

defender is Islamic Caliphate
<snip>
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)
Mil Rank 4 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 698


Assuming all of this happens in ISIS territory (as I flatly refuse to believe Saudi tropos in te border kept watching camel races while gases were falling upon them), and understanding that ISIS CP are about 68 CP of WMD weapons and 630 (the remainder) of conventiona, weapons, does that mean ISIS GDP is reduced by about 12% (about 7% for WMD, about 2% for the rest of ISIS forces and about 7% for Saudi ones)?
Or as only the defender (not the attacker) used WMD they do not count for GDP reduction (so reducing it by only the 3% for the Saudi forces)?
(in any case is usually seen as a bad idea to use WMD in your own territory)

quote:
Actions for Russia
<snip>
Mil Rank 2 nation. Final <b>Combat Strength is 2787

 Defender is Islamic Caliphate
 <snip>
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)
Mil Rank 4 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 698



Following the reasoning above, the remaining 88% ISIS GDP would be reduced by about 20% (again about 7% for WMD, about 2% for the rest of ISIS forces and 11% for the Russian), so leaving it to about 70% it was in the preceding Combat round...

If only the attacking forces so damage GDP, the reduction would be 11% of the (already reduced to 97%) GDP, leaving ISIS with a GDP equivalent to about 86% it was

Combat Cycle Ref:
Russia and Syria attack Syrian insurgents
Russia from H19 Tartus Syria
3 Experienced Multi-role Plane Squadrons (T-50)
              2 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (BMP-4)
with
Syria
<snip>
1 Green Artillery Brigades
4 Green IRBM squadrons

Mil Rank 3 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 2996


Defender is Syrian Rebels
<snip>

Mil Rank 4 nation. WMDs are used. Final Combat Strength is 689


As Syria used WMD with their artillery and IRBMs, that means about 206 of their CP are WMD tipped (so the emaining 2790 Cp are conventional), while rebels use about 42 WMD CP and the remainder 647 are conventional. So, again, does that mean that Syrian GDP (or at least those controlled by the insurgents, though in this case he whole country could be affected) is reduced by 37%?
And see that in this case even if the defending CP are discarded, the reduction would be of about  31%).

And if the effect in pop is comparable to that on colonies (not told about in rules, as shown above), Syria would have lost about 31-37 pop (so over 150000 people) ...

This message was last updated by the player at 16:39, Mon 01 Sept 2014.

Japan
 GM, 44 posts
Fri 29 Aug 2014
at 23:16
Re: War Round#2 2028
Combat Cycle Ref:
WR#2 Russia move from G17 Russia through H19 Georgia, H19 Kurdistan Republic H19 Islamic Caliphate and attacks Islamic Caliphate with

Turkey says: H19 Kurdistan Republic? There is no such thing. You mean eastern Turkey! Russian troops are not welcome in Turkey! Russia say you have NATO consent for this!? We should think not! From Turkey to UK, Germany, USA: Say it aint so! Turkey is being invaded by Russia or Turkey has been betrayed by it´s "allies" in NATO.

GM to all: Russia is moving troops from Georgia, inside Turkey aka Turkish Kurdistan area to Islamic Caliphate (aka Iraq/Syria).
Combat Cycle Ref
 player, 49 posts
Sun 31 Aug 2014
at 22:43
Re: War Round#2 2028
Azerbaijan attack Russia

Attacker is Azerbaijan
3 veteran motor inf bde
10 experienced motor inf bde
10 green motor inf bde
11 reserve inf bde
2 exp artillery bde
2 exp SAMs
3 green multirole heli
1 exp multirole heli
1 exp multirole planes
2 green multirole plane
2 green patrol boat squads

Mil Rank 3 nation. Mil tech 7.9 Final Combat Strength is 1269


Defender is Russia
11 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (Military-Ground tech 8.4, BMP-4)
8 Experienced Infantry Brigades (Military-Ground tech 8.4, Sol Earth hex G24 17!!!, Security ability, Internal Affairs troops)


Mil Rank 2 nation. Mil tech 8.4 Final Combat Strength is 1446

Odds are 1269/1449 = 0.877 which becomes 1:1.5 Azerbaijan gets 1 column shift to the right as they are ambushing with some surprise and the Russians are not setup for immediate combat. Final odds are 1:1

22:59, Today: Combat Cycle Ref rolled 6 using 1d10. Azerbaijan attack Russia.

Results: 40% loss to the Attacker, 20% to defender

Losses
Azerbaijan
3 veteran motor inf bde        1xCD Reserve
10 experienced motor inf bde   6xCD Reserve
10 green motor inf bde         6xCD Reserve
11 reserve inf bde
2 exp artillery bde
2 exp SAMs
3 green multirole heli         3xCD Reserve
1 exp multirole heli           1xCD Reserve
1 exp multirole planes
2 green multirole plane        1xCD Reserve
2 green patrol boat squads

Russia
11 Veteran Mechanized Brigade (BMP-4)   2xCD Reserve
8 Experienced Infantry Brigades (Security ability, Internal Affairs troops)  2xCD Reserve
Saudi Arabia
 player, 16 posts
Mon 1 Sep 2014
at 14:41
News release
King Khalid Military City; Saudi Arabia:

The Saudi Ministry of Defense has confirmed today the shooting of the general of the northern zone, along with those of the first corps and 2 division generals under accusation of treason and sympathizing with the enemy.

According Saudi military sources, they have been found guilty of the disaster against the Caliphate when they ordered the follow up troops for the attack to hold on and not to intervene. The same sources tell that they had grudges with Iraq since Desert Storm in 1991, and sympathized with what ISIS is doing there, so, when orders to attack ISIS were received, they were fully ignored, even when receiving the plea of their comrades that obeyed them.

Only the disobeying from some lower echelon officers allowed the attacking troops return to Saudi Arabia, as they covered the retreat of the battered troops that obeyed and spearheaded in the offensive.

Rumor is that a severe purge of the higher ranks of the Saudi Army is being done as consequence of the disaster, while younger officers (many of them US or UK trained, and supposedly more professional and aggressive) are raised to command.
Germany
 player, 110 posts
Mon 1 Sep 2014
at 16:54
Re: Let's see if I understand rules well...
In reply to Germany (msg # 113):

Keeping on my own educational study of the effects of war according the rules:

Losses:

Saudi losses (according Msg#96)

869 x 60% = 521

Damaged units
  • 1 armor brigade: 5 x 7.72 /3 = 99
  • 2 Mech brig: 3 x 7.72 /3 = 59 x 2 = 118
  • 5 MR squadrons: 5 x 3 x 7.72 /3 = 59 x 5 = 295

Totals = 512.

Russian losses against Caliphate (according Msg#110):

2787 * 40% = 1115

Damaged units:
  • 6 x mech brigade: 3 x 8.52/2= 108 x 6 = 648
  • 4 x inf brigades: 1 x 8.52/2= 36 x 4 = 144
  • 3 x multi-role squadrons: 3 x 8.52/2= 108 x 3 = 324

Totals: 1116 (1 point over losses ??)

Caliphate losses (according Msg#110 too):

698 X 0.2 = 140

Damaged units:

  • 3 x mot brigades: 1 x 7.42/4= 14 x 3 = 42
  • 2 x SAM batteries: 2 x 7.42/4= 27 x 2 = 54
  • 3 x Inf brigades: 1 x 7.42/4= 14 x 3 = 42

Totals: 138.

So, I understand armor is ignored when assigning losses according 12.10. Am I right on it?

See that this is not explicited in the rules:

quote:
From 12:10:
Conduct Damage Allocation normally except, the number of hits taken is applied to the Total Combat Strength in the next attack, not to specific units until after the last attack is done


EDIT:

Also, as I understand rules, losses should not be applied until the end of the War Round, as if NATO attacked now ISIS, ISIS combat power should be reduced by 20%, but its Green units should still be so when assingning any losses NATO could inflict, while as it's now, ISIS combat power would be full (as, according 12.10 the fact some units are CD to reserve does not affect), but those same units would be reserve (so, when applying damage they could be destroyed, instead of being CDed).

Also, should ISIS counteratttack Saudi troops, if losses have been already applied, the Saudis would defend with full power (as no units have been destroyed), while, according 12.10 their CP should be reduced by the 60% losses (but probably other Saudi units in the hex and the Green air units in adjacent hexes could help in defense, so making ISIS attack suicide).

So, did I understand rules right?

END EDIT

NOTE: not complaining nor judging, just trying to better understand them (after all, you pointed they need to be tested)

This message was last edited by the player at 17:55, Mon 01 Sept 2014.

Germany
 player, 111 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 13:58
Re: War Round#2 2028
Combat Cycle Ref:
Azerbaijan attack Russia


Gremany condemns the attack to UN troops (regardless their nationality) and requires Azerbaijan to allow free way for UN forces and supplies, as well as asks Russia not to turn this in a war that would only divert ressources to the benefit of our common enemies.

Likewise, Germany offers to deploy interposition forces (Fallschirmjägers) in Azerbaijan to keep the supply route, avoid further conflicto and act as witness of any provocation by any side, like German Feldjägers are doing in Georgia.
Japan
 GM, 47 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 15:45
Re: War Round#2 2028
Germany:
Combat Cycle Ref:
Azerbaijan attack Russia


Gremany condemns the attack to UN troops (regardless their nationality) and requires Azerbaijan to allow free way for UN forces and supplies, as well as asks Russia not to turn this in a war that would only divert ressources to the benefit of our common enemies.

Likewise, Germany offers to deploy interposition forces (Fallschirmjägers) in Azerbaijan to keep the supply route, avoid further conflicto and act as witness of any provocation by any side, like German Feldjägers are doing in Georgia.

Azerbaijan says: What will the Fallschirmjäger do; observe while russia occupies azerbaijan? We will not sacrifise our freedom just because Russias occupation forces wave a blue flag. If you (Germany/NATO) guarantee our sovereignty and escort the Russians through fine, otherwise we fight!

This message was last edited by the GM at 15:52, Tue 02 Sept 2014.

Germany
 player, 112 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 16:01
Re: War Round#2 2028
Japan:
Germany:
Combat Cycle Ref:
Azerbaijan attack Russia


Gremany condemns the attack to UN troops (regardless their nationality) and requires Azerbaijan to allow free way for UN forces and supplies, as well as asks Russia not to turn this in a war that would only divert ressources to the benefit of our common enemies.

Likewise, Germany offers to deploy interposition forces (Fallschirmjägers) in Azerbaijan to keep the supply route, avoid further conflicto and act as witness of any provocation by any side, like German Feldjägers are doing in Georgia.

Azerbaijan says: what will they do; observe while russia occupies azerbaijan? We will not sacrifize our freedom because russias occupatiom forces wave a blue flag.


This blue flag makes them UN troops, not Russia ones, and they were not occupying anything (nor even ready for combat as has been seen) they were just passing under UN spansorship when ambushed (hardly can this be said an occupation).

We understand suspicacions have arised, but the attack has hampered the whole UN opperation. This is a bad missunderstanding that may deestabilize the whole region even more that it's aleady.

So Germany asks both sides to stop fighting and resume UN opperation, while investigating (if needed) what exactly happened. As said before, a war in Azerbaijan would only profit ISIS by depriving UN from Russian support and Azerbaijani supply lines.

Japan:
If you guarantee our sovereignty and escort thrm through fine otherwise we fight.


That's what Germany was suggesting to do with our Fallschirmjäger, if Russia agrees they will deploy along the route for the Russian troops and supplies to pass and avoid further conflict, if we're on time to stop it.

They will also avoid (to their best capabilities) provocations for either side or act as witness of any that arises.
UK
 player, 49 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 16:15
Re: War Round#2 2028
Japan:
Azerbaijan says: What will the Fallschirmjäger do; observe while russia occupies azerbaijan? We will not sacrifise our freedom just because Russias occupation forces wave a blue flag. If you (Germany/NATO) guarantee our sovereignty and escort the Russians through fine, otherwise we fight!


Agreed - NATO forces will be more than happy to join with our Russian counterparts who are proceeding to assist in a UN mandated mission.

NATO sees no reason to believe that Russia in indeed attempting to invade Azerbaijan and calls for calm.

Since Germany has offered to deploy units to join and escort Russian UN forces though Azerbaijan we feel this would be the best course of action - we call on both sides to restrain themselves and withdraw from any combat and to avoid any provocation

We will extend a guarantee of sovereignty to the Azerbaijani government - We will do this to calm the situation, not out of any belief it is necessary. We have no fear that Russia will act in any way other than as a civilized and honorable member of the international community, as they have consistently for decades.
Japan
 GM, 48 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 16:16
Re: War Round#2 2028
Germany:
This blue flag makes them UN troops, not Russia ones, and they were not occupying anything (nor even ready for combat as has been seen) they were just passing under UN spansorship when ambushed (hardly can this be said an occupation).

They don´t behave like UN troops. Do they have a UN mandate to pillage and kidnap people?
Germany:
So Germany asks both sides to stop fighting and resume UN opperation, while investigating (if needed) what exactly happened. As said before, a war in Azerbaijan would only profit ISIS by depriving UN from Russian support and Azerbaijani supply lines.

Please investigate.
Germany:
That's what Germany was suggesting to do with our Fallschirmjäger, if Russia agrees they will deploy along the route for the Russian troops and supplies to pass and avoid further conflict, if we're on time to stop it.

Let there be no mistake. Germany/NATO must publicly state that it guarantees Azerbaijans independence and will see that every Russian soldier leave the country after this troop movement to Iran. If so, then Azerbaijan forces will withdraw leaving a corridor from Russia to Iran.
Japan
 GM, 49 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 16:26
Re: War Round#2 2028
UK:
We will extend a guarantee of sovereignty to the Azerbaijani government - We will do this to calm the situation, not out of any belief it is necessary. We have no fear that Russia will act in any way other than as a civilized and honorable member of the international community, as they have consistently for decades.

Ok agreed.
Germany
 player, 113 posts
Tue 2 Sep 2014
at 16:31
Re: War Round#2 2028
Japan:
Germany:
This blue flag makes them UN troops, not Russia ones, and they were not occupying anything (nor even ready for combat as has been seen) they were just passing under UN spansorship when ambushed (hardly can this be said an occupation).

They don´t behave like UN troops. Do they have a UN mandate to pillage and kidnap people?


No, they don't have the right to do so, but it seems there have een more a matter of discipline problems than orders received. At most, as we see it, Russia may be accused to have discipline problems among their tropos (but who doesn't in all this mess?).

Japan:
Germany:
So Germany asks both sides to stop fighting and resume UN opperation, while investigating (if needed) what exactly happened. As said before, a war in Azerbaijan would only profit ISIS by depriving UN from Russian support and Azerbaijani supply lines.

Please investigate.


Germany suggests a tree way investigation by Russians, Azerbaijainis and EU/NATO/OECD members for all the incidents occurred.

Japan:
Germany:
That's what Germany was suggesting to do with our Fallschirmjäger, if Russia agrees they will deploy along the route for the Russian troops and supplies to pass and avoid further conflict, if we're on time to stop it.

Let there be no mistake. Germany/NATO must publicly state that it guarantees Azerbaijans independence and will see that every Russian soldier leave the country after this troop movement to Iran. If so, then Azerbaijan forces will withdraw leaving a corridor from Russia to Iran.


Right now both sides claim they have been victims of an unprovoked attack, and both sides have a point on it. The Russians have perhaps not been too polite (but at the speed things are developed this seems nearly unavoidable, and we're not the ones to throw the first stone, after the incidents we had with Turkey and Iraq), and Azerbaijan has overreacted by ambushing what was a comboy not deployed for combat (something that, in German opinion, proves they were not invading, as they are not so stupid as to invade in march formation).

That's the big missunderstunding we told about, and we ask both sides to refrain making decisions they can regreat latter due to the hot situation. We have had more than enough of this in this crisis and now we're facing such a mess.

Now it's time to try to defuse the whole mess, and that begins for not fighting what should be allies, thinking twice before acting and trying to trust one another for the best of all of us and the whole world.

This message was last edited by the player at 16:31, Tue 02 Sept 2014.

Combat Cycle Ref
 player, 50 posts
Thu 4 Sep 2014
at 21:30
Re: War Round#2 2028
>(after all, you pointed they need to be tested)
Oh I know. Unlike the detailed rules this is the first time we have ever tried the Quick Combat rules, I see lots and lots of things I need to fix, but we are stuck with the rules that we have for now.
---------------------------------------------------------------
NATO attack Caliphate

Attacker is NATO
NATO
1 Veteran Bomber Squadrons (longrange)   UK
1 veteran Multirole plane Squadrons (Eurofighter) UK
1 elite multirole plane squad (Tornado) UK
3 Naval Veteran Multirole Plane Squadrons USA

1 elite Inf Bde (stealth, airborne, amphibious, SAS/SBS/SRR) –Iran UK
1 elite Inf Bde (stealth, airborne, amphibious, SAS/SBS/SRR) –Iran UK
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade  -Jordan USA
2 Marine Elite Mechanized Brigades –Iran USA
1 Elite Armored Brigade–Iran  USA
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade–Iran USA
2 Vet Armor Brigades  Germany
1 Vet mech Brigade  Germany
1 Vet SPG (art) brigade  Germany

Mil Rank 1 nation. Mil tech 8.5 Final Combat Strength is 3901

Defender is Islamic Caliphate

1 Reserve Tank Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve Mechanized Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
3 Green Motorized Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
2 Green SAM Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)

4 Green Infantry Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)

Mil Rank 4 nation. Mil tech 7.4 Final Combat Strength is 698

Odds are 3901/698 = 5.58 which becomes 5:1
15:59, Today: Combat Cycle Ref rolled 3 using 1d10. NATO attack Caliphate.
CCR says: I do not make this stuff up! The rpol site does the die roll!

Results: 20% loss to the Attacker, 80% to defender

Losses
NATO
1 Veteran Bomber Squadrons (longrange)   UK
1 veteran Multirole plane Squadrons (Eurofighter) UK     1XxCD Reserve
1 elite multirole plane squad (Tornado) UK
3 Naval Veteran Multirole Plane Squadrons USA    1xCD Reserve

1 elite Inf Bde (stealth, airborne, amphibious, SAS/SBS/SRR) –Iran UK    1xCD Reserve
1 elite Inf Bde (stealth, airborne, amphibious, SAS/SBS/SRR) –Iran UK
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade  -Jordan USA
2 Marine Elite Mechanized Brigades –Iran USA
1 Elite Armored Brigade–Iran  USA
1 Elite Mechanized Brigade–Iran USA      1xCD Reserve
2 Vet Armor Brigades  Germany
1 Vet mech Brigade  Germany
1 Vet SPG (art) brigade  Germany

Caliphate
1 Reserve Tank Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)           1XDestroyed
1 Reserve Mechanized Brigade (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)  1XDestroyed
3 Green Motorized Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)    3XDestroyed
1 Green Artillery Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)          1xCD Reserve then Destroyed
2 Green SAM Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)
1 Reserve IRBM squadron (ex-Syrian unit)         1xDestroyed

4 Green Infantry Brigades (ex-Syrian and Iraqi units)         1xCD Reserve
10 Reserve Infantry Brigades (Stealth Ability, various militia)         10xDestroyed
Japan
 GM, 50 posts
Fri 5 Sep 2014
at 06:40
Re: War Round#2 2028
Combat Cycle Ref:
NATO attack Caliphate

GM says: And that was the last of the war for this turn. Now I will write a few ending remarks and then we will call this turn closed. If you have anything you wish to add, please do so ASAP.

EDIT: Ending remarks written. If you have anything to add, or think I have forgotten something let me know ASAP.

This message was last edited by the GM at 07:52, Fri 05 Sept 2014.