by request

Back before Bush became president, he spoke at Bob Jones University, a ultra conservative Christian university anyway, this brought alot of media attention for a little while and Bob Jones the third (I think he's the third) went to speak on larry king live, that famous interviewer...who is hardly a conservative.

Now that university is well known for it's dissagreement with the catholic church (this is putting it mildly) so Larry King asked him about it.  Now it really would have been easy for someone like him to pull out his punches but he simply said ,They believe that something other than the grace of God is nesicary for salvation.

I think that sums it up good, salvation is about belief and faith, it's about God's grace and mercy, not keeping sacraments.

There's a reason I call it BJU for short :P

The problem with teh Grace of God is that God has to choose who he can save. In the way of sacraments, at least you can be a good person and not have to leave it to chance.

It's also saying that God's grace is not enough when he has said it is.  He's also said that anyone that is willing to have faith in Gospel message will be saved.

I'm unclear as to what exactly the differences between catholicism and protestant christianity are, and what the basic beliefs of catholicism are.  LLF, i know that you have a fairly good idea.  anyone else?

No one has said you NEED the sacraments to be saved.  You may be saved without baptism, but baptism (assuming you don't reject it later) guarantees salvation.  A being true does not imply B is false.

Protestantism is a very wide range of beliefs.  If you were to look at some of the first protestant churchs, the Anglicans, Lutherans, Episcipalians(sp?) and their direct descendants (Wesleyans, etc.) the changes are minimal.  They still have a council of bishops, but no pope.  They don't believe the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, they allow divorce.  Aside from that, you could walk into a Lutheran service and never know it's not Catholic.

As you get farther away from that, say into Universalist Unitarianism, things start to get a little weird.

I'm assuming you know the history, so this should probably make sense.  The most critical difference is the original protestant churchs rejected the Catholic church's heirarchy, and many traditions.  Usually, each church has its own reason for being separate from its parent which may make it more or less of a jump from Catholicism (Calvinists believe in predestination, whereas Wesleyans just believed Wesley was a really super guy).  However, without a unified governing body there's no 'change control', so you also end up with some pretty fringe groups.

I got saved at the age of twelve and didn't get Baptised until I was 17 btw.

I reject the whole catholic idea of sacrements there shouldn't be any sacrements in the church.  "they cause that grace in the souls of men"(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm) from a catholic encyclopedia

grace = unmerited favor

Getting sprinkled in water how does that cause grace?

Eating crackers and drinking wine how does that cause grace?

pledging my allegiance to a philosopher who got nailed to a piece of wood, how does that cause grace?

it's all a matter of what you believe in.  some people believe in transubstantiation, some people don't.  some people believe that how you act is more important than what you say, some people don't.  some people believe that the idea of a deity who puts us on earth just to test which of us can get the good afterlife while claiming to truly love each of us is a) a plausible idea and b) worthy of worship, and some people don't.

you have no more proof* that what you believe brings you grace than the catholics do.

It's not about proof, it's about following the teaching of the Bible.  The message of Jesus and the Apostles was that Salvation was by Grace through faith, the real heresy that certian sects add or take away to that.

I think it odd that you look at what John the Baptist was doing, yet you reject the idea of sacraments?

Sacraments are symbols of our growing in the community.  Baptism is the idea of washing away original sin, but more importantly, making a commitment that the child will be raised with an appreciation for God.  I might as well ask what's the difference between living in sin and getting married?  (Actually, I am going to ask that, since marriage is also a sacrament).

So if you don't believe in sacraments... Why should I get married?

I don't believe in sacrements because the official Catholic stance is that they impart grace.  That is my main beef with Catholics the rest is really small compared to that fact.

You don't need to get married, the Apostle Paul says it is even better to remain single if you don't burn (for someone to be with)

"I would that all men were even as I myself..I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I but if they cannot contain let them marry: for it is better ot marry than to burn" (1 cor 7:7-9)

Read the paragraph above.  Why should I get married as opposed to just shacking up with some lady for the rest of my life?

I once heard a preacher say some of the marriages in the first century were a master just pointing to two slaves of different gender and sticking them together.

If there is a verse that says men are not supposed to live with women I haven't found it, I think it's more of a question of putting yourself in a bad siguation.  Where it would be easy to be tempted.

What does that have to do with sacraments though?

Because marriage is a sacrament.  So I see two arguments for you to say we should get married instead of living in sin:

1)  The bible says so.  Simple argument.  But the bible also shows we should get baptised.  After all, Jesus got baptised, and Jesus condoned John's activities in baptising all these other people.

2)  Marriage is a special commitment, and an invitation for God to act in our lives.  If you believe marriage is REQUIRED because of this, since baptism is exactly the same (a commitment to God and a request that He act in your life), baptism too should be required.

I'm not saying anything bad about marriage or baptism, both are great I think.  Just the theological aspects of sacrements I am opposed to, it stands in contrast to the biblical teaching of salvation being received though grace alone by faith alone.

But that's the tricky part.  Even you believe you are saved through Grace, the grace of Jesus, right?  After all, Jesus said it's through HIM that you get to heaven.  Not through works, not through faith, through JESUS.  Through HIS grace, that he vouches for you and lets you in.  After all, what is it you have faith in?  You have faith in God's grace in letting you join him.

So giving a child baptism and saying he now has 'grace' isn't invalidating the necessity of faith.  But since grace is based upon relationships, and mirrored in the community, by bestowing 'grace' upon the child, you are officially starting his faith life.  The church community and with God in attendance, you welcome the child among you, and you make a commitment to grow the child's faith.  Baptism is a welcoming of the Grace of God, and also the start of Faith.  Faith without grace is faith in nothing.  Grace without faith is God's love being rejected.

Exactly, not through works, what is baptism?  Isn't that something you do... a work?

I hope you're teasing.

Just because you're 'doing something' or it involves action doesn't mean it's works in that meaning you are implying.  After all, even faith involves action to some degree (since faith cannot be borne in a vacuum).  It's not the fact that you're burning calories that puts it into the 'good works' instead of 'faith'.  And it's not the action of dumping water that's important, it's the commitment and presence of God that makes it a sacrament.  Baptism isn't just 'good works'.

Actually I'm quite serious, remember what I said in the beginning?

Grace = Unmerited Favor

Be it baptism or some other good work, it's still doing something for God, to earn our way into heaven.  His grace is something we get by asking and believing not by doing a work.

And that's exactly my point.

The ACTION of pouring water on the person's head is worthless.  It's a representation of something else.  Just like doing the sign of the cross or saying the our father on its own is worthless.  It means something else.

Baptism is asking for God's grace, so it fits your final statement.  It is a request for God's grace.  That's why you can't baptise someone who doesn't want it.  The physical actions mean nothing on their own.