I tend to write a lot, besides playing in RPGs... I guess I have a question in response to the question.

I had someone tell me that if what you're writing (or playing for that matter), doesn't reflect God in a positive light (or at all), that you shouldn't be writing it (or doing it).

It sounds like a good theory, but what if that is the only place that you feel inspired to write about? (or play in).

I grew up on D+D, and left it when I became a christian.

But does that mean a game with realistic witchcraft is ok to emulate as being on the side of good?

It's just like PKing. Sure there are players who get pissed off at you if your character kills his character. But they aren't worth roleplaying with.

Roleplaying is fun, and not bad, so long as you keep it that way.  You can make it bad, depending on what you do in game... Adult games, namely.
As for multiple gods, it is a game, and I think that as long as it stays in the realm of another world, whatever theology you have in that world is fine.
Like Star Wars... there is no god in Star Wars.  Is that bad?  No!  Because Star Wars is fantasy.  Fantasy is basically a "what if," not a "this is."

So what if you take the game too far, and start killing rats in sewers IRL?  This is bad.  However, that makes RPing bad only as much as fat people make food bad.

edit: removed redundancy

rogue, so what if someone draws their belifs from a fantasy world, hm? If you're right and they're wrong what does it matter what they think that's wrong? What they believe is irrelevant if it's not true. Wrong is wrong, so where's the harm in fantasy?

Again, as long as fantasy and fiction stay fantasy and fiction, I think they are okay, and often enjoyable.

Not always...

We also play God whenever we are promoting our religion, whenever we make anything, whenever we make a decision that affects another human being, etc.

every theistic religion that i've examined includes a bit about humans having free will; judaism and christianity even have god explicitly saying so.

I can back Heath on his comment/question. Freewill means we can choose on our own, it doesn't mean anything we want is good for us.

And just what are people supposed to do?  They're supposed to act like God. QED

except that we're not really playing god with a lot of those things - we're playing human. every theistic religion that i've examined includes a bit about humans having free will; judaism and christianity even have god explicitly saying so.  using our free will to do things that affect other people or promote our beliefs or whatever isn't supposed to be an imitation of the divine, it's people doing what people are supposed to do.

i never said that.  all i was saying is that the whole "playing god" line is overused and not particularly meaningful.  and if we agree with

Many Christian conservatives are against the concept of genetic manipulation in humans because it is "playing God." However, men are supposed to act Godly, that is like God, or righteous. If man is supposed to act like God this would seem to contradict the statement above.

Word games? Perhaps. But word games are still interesting, are they not? It still seems paradoxical how acting like God in some ways is a good thing, and acting like God in other ways is bad. Tell me, rogue, how does one exhibit qualities of God without acting in God's likeness?

"So then Elfear, what if you're not christian? Is it ok to play other gods then?"

Whether you are Christian or not does not affect whether playing god is ok.  However, it may affect whether or not you care.  A non-christian wouldn't care if it is ok to play god, as he doesn't believe any god exists anyway.

Again, it all depends on what you do as god, and whether or not you can keep it in the realm of fantasy.  The fact is, we can't judge for others when they have stepped over the line into what is not okay.  We can sometimes see that they did so in the past, but we can never judge when.  Only they can do that.

Erm...could you rephrase that?
I'm not axactly sure what you are trying to ask...

"So then Elfear, what if you're not christian? Is it ok to play other gods then?"

Whether you are Christian or not does not affect whether playing god is ok.  However, it may affect whether or not you care.  A non-christian wouldn't care if it is ok to play god, as he doesn't believe any god exists anyway.

Again, it all depends on what you do as god, and whether or not you can keep it in the realm of fantasy.  The fact is, we can't judge for others when they have stepped over the line into what is not okay.  We can sometimes see that they did so in the past, but we can never judge when.  Only they can do that.

One point, I asked if it were ok to play other gods, not God. And there are many non christians who believe in God, or gods.

No, that's not what I'm trying to say...
Remember before I said it all depends on what you do.  If you play a character who is proud and often violent, then I don't think that is sin, unless you start being like that character.

I suspect causally youd find a better link between D&D and diabetes.

The answer is both yes and no, depending upon one's point of view. There are many religious terms like demonic possession, Neopaganism,  Occult, Satan, and Satanism which have multiple meanings. Often conservative Christians use one definition, whereas others use another definition:

Common beliefs among conservative Christians: They often oppose fantasy games because of the alleged occult content of the games. They frequently state that RPG rule books include poison recipes or methods of summoning demons, etc. This appears to be a misunderstanding. A very few games have printed spell incantations from folk and ceremonial magick, but most do not. A gamer who wants his pretend character to cast a spell in order to protect itself from attack might simply say to the GM "I am casting a healing spell now." Note that neither the player nor their character actually casts a spell or practices magick. The player simply describes what the imaginary character is doing. Gaming is basically an adult version of make believe. It does not promote actual black magic or manipulative magick.
Evangelical Christian authors often view Satanism as being at the core of "the occult". Many believe that Satanism is a secret, underground, highly organized evil group that is international in scope and under the personal control of Satan. Some feel that Satanists are responsible for kidnapping, torturing, ritually killing and even eating infants and children. They look upon many diverse occultic activities as performing a recruitment function for Satanists; these include fantasy role-playing games, astrology, heavy metal rock music, the "Care Bears" and "Smurfs" on children's TV, a second religion Wicca - often called "white" Witchcraft. Some conservative Christians view all religions other than Christianity (e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam) as forms of Satanism.

Common beliefs among mainline and liberal Christians, some conservative Christians, secularists, RPG players, etc: They view the Occult in very different terms. It is seen as a list of many unrelated and harmless activities: two religions, one type of game, one form of music, a variety of methods of foretelling the future and some imaginative and charming children's cartoons. In particular, two very different religions, Satanism and Wicca are unrelated to the other activities mentioned. Neither Satanists nor Wiccans recruit members. "The Occult" is not an organized entity. 
Since conservative Christians use a different definition for the term "occult" from others, it is not possible to harmonize these two beliefs.

Attack on RPGs by Focus on the Family:

On 1997-APR-7 and 8, the Adventures in Odyssey program of Focus on the Family broadcast two episodes which attacked what they call "role-playing Fantasy Games" [sic]. 12 Odyssey is a radio play about pre-teens and teens in an American town. In both episodes, Dr. James Dobson presented a short talk directed to the children and youth listening to the program and their parents. He attacked RPGs, because he feels that its players actually become the pretend characters that they have selected. To play the game properly, he said that the players need to practice magic and mysticism. His choice of the terms "magic" and "mysticism" is unfortunate, because both words have multiple, conflicting meanings. In the APR-7 episode, he said that some gamers have reported involvement with demons and Satan worship.

In the radio play, "Jimmy" is visited by a RPG playing cousin, "Len". Len's character in the game is known as "Luther the Magician." The latter introduces Jimmy to a game called Castles and Cauldrons"; he gives Jimmy's character the name of "John Dell, the Apprentice." They play the game together. A battle is fought with some evil enemies; both experience auditory hallucinations in which their plastic swords sound like real weapons. Some of the misconceptions mentioned in the play were:

the gamers actually become the pretend characters, and engage in battles and other adventures. In reality, the gamers remain quite human and simply direct the character that they have chosen to go through the adventure.
the gamers are described as kneeling and reciting an incantation. Actually, the gamers would typically remain sitting and simply say that their characters are kneeling and engaged in a ritual; no incantation would actually be spoken.
if the gamer proves themselves worthy then they are supposed to accumulate special powers. This is incorrect. In reality, it is the character that the gamer has selected who may accumulate or lose imaginary powers during the course of a game.
Len described how one of his gamer friends is able to have visions. He can see things far away through the eyes of a flying bird. Again, in reality, it is the gamer's imaginary character that might be said to have visions, not the gamer. And in reality, the character sees no visions; the character is not alive; it is merely a symbol fantasized by the gamers as if it were real and seeing visions.
Len says that he has the power to read Jimmy's heart and implies that he received this special power during his gaming. This again is nonsense; players do not accumulate special powers; it is the player's pretend character that may accumulate or lose pretend powers.
The game is linked with manipulative black magick throughout the episode. Whit, a store owner, became overcome with feelings of dread and dropped a glass. He felt something oppressing his spirit. A cat became influenced (presumably by Len) to tear the arms off of a doll. A roast in the oven started to smoke. The implications are that the game playing is linked closely to black magic, and that one result of the game is to harm other people elsewhere in the town.
The games are described as involving evil, spiritual forces. Playing these games is said to "open doors" that "lets loose" demonic forces into people's lives. Again, gamers do not participate in evil sorcery, recite incantations, curse other people, etc. The Christian Scriptures contain many references to demons; they were very much a part of 1st Century CE belief, and were considered to be the source of many mental illnesses. But most people stopped believing in demons with the rise of modern mental health therapies. Demons are today mostly limited to Hollywood horror movies and the mental health belief systems of some conservative Christians.
Len explains that some adults become "Interferers" and attempt to stop young people from playing the games. He explained how they drove-off one such woman through the use of magic. Again, gamers do not engage in black magic or spells to dominate, manipulate, or control others.
At one point, Len tried to draw blood from Jimmy. Gamers don't draw blood. Their pretend characters might be imagined to draw pretend blood, but that is all.
"Whit" Whittaker, the owner of a local store comes across Len and Jimmy playing their game. He immediately destroys one of the tools of the game, called The Board of Talisman. Later, Whit casually mentions that he has stolen and destroyed all of Jimmies' gaming equipment. The implication is that a Christian is well within his rights to destroy another person's possessions if he feels that they are unchristian.

The overall effect of the Adventures in Odyssey program is:

to give a very distorted view of fantasy role-playing games,
to link them with "The Occult", black magick, evil sorcery and demonic activity.
to imply that it is quite acceptable for Christians to destroy other people's possessions if they disapprove of them.
If the program had simply been presented as a play, then it would have been an amusing piece of fiction - something like the "X-Files" or "Outer Limits" for kids. But the introduction by Dr. Dobson seems to imply that the activities described in the episode reflect the reality of role-playing games. They do not. The producers of the program are either completely misinformed, or intentionally deceptive about the nature of these games. The radio program promoted an hopelessly inaccurate version of fantasy role-playing games in which the players become involved with demons, Satanic worship, spells, curses, evil sorcery etc. The end result of the program is to create fear and insecurity in the minds of listeners in order to scare them away from playing this type of game.

"Video games producers are getting smarter. They lead you to sites where you can be instructed by a real life occultist. You talk to hardcore people."1 Peter Lanz, a former member of the occult Order of the Golden Dawn

"The magical occult practices of the ancients aren't just for the ancients. The spirits involved are eternal beings, and they are just as active today as they were a thousand years ago, as is their worship.... The toys children play with depict powerful creatures of the darkness. Now, games give explicit instruction in the rituals and methods of the occult. Indeed, gaming tournaments are prime times for occultists to find 'recruits' with exceptional ability."2 N.R.K.

 "Satan is not simply trying to draw people to the dark side of a good versus evil conflict. Actually, he is trying to eradicate the gap between himself and God, between good and evil, altogether."3 Ray Yungen, A Time of Departing

"These kids are easily drawn into occult groups through [role-playing] tournaments," said Peter. "When kids transition from simulation -- when they actually experience the POWER that is available to them through the rituals they are learning to perform under the guise of 'fantasy' -- that power becomes like an addiction and they get hooked. But they don't see that."


"I could walk up to any of these teens who showed promise," he continued, "and I could put my hand on their shoulder, look them in the eye and say, 'If you get a rush from this, how would like to do it for real?' No one has ever answered no."

Having a car radio with a "scan" feature is
that you often listen, albeit briefly, to lots
of radio stations you would never normally
allow yourself to hear (country
music, classical music, talk radio, etc.).
About a month ago, on my way to work
before the sun was even up, I punched
“scan” and soon found myself listening to
a warning being issued by a Christian fundamentalist
radio station in Milwaukee.
The warning was against a Walt Disney
movie, Beauty and the Beast.
Before I go any further, I want to paraphrase
a much more famous person and
say that I will defend to my death the Constitutional
right of that radio station to give
air play to such views. I say this despite
fact that some of those views, such as the
one I'm about to relate, might come across
to some people as being a little on the
lunatic side (as I am sure my editorial will
come across to the people who have those
lunatic views, but I can live with that).
The meat of the message to radio listeners
was that parents should have nothing
to do with Beauty and the Beast, despite its
beauty and grandeur and warmth and
moral lessons, because the movie contains,
right at its very start, an episode of
black magic--namely, the transformation
of a heartless prince into a beast by a sorceress
’s spell. That's lycanthropy, the station
said, and that's evil, so don't buy the
video and expose your kids to it.
It's obvious that the people issuing the
warning believe fully in the existence of
black magic and lycanthropy, which does
make me wonder if they also lock their
closet doors every night to keep out the
boogeyman. (I can already guess what
they must think of fantasy role-playing
games like ours.) Anyway, since these people
believe in black magic, they want people
to stay away from it, which is good
advice for anyone under the age of three
but might sound agonizingly ignorant to
everyone else.
Obviously, some people in this country
(and elsewhere) are very much afraid of
fantasy, in whatever form it takes. Antifantasy
attacks are not limited to arguments
against Beauty and the Beast, of
course. The same kind of reasoning that equates a Walt Disney film with black
magic reappears in arguments against the
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game, such as
the one offered by a lawyer who tried to
get nominated for the office of Virginia
state attorney general in 1985: "The
essence of D&D is violence. It teaches
Satan-worship, spell-casting, witchcraft,
murder, rape, suicide, and assassination
along the way." (He lost the nomination.)*
Other fantasy materials have been under
attack in this century, particularly fantasy
and science-fiction novels and stories.
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, A Clockwork
Orange, The Martian Chronicles, The
Lathe of Heaven, Oscar Wilde's The Happy
Prince and Other Stories, 1984, Slaughterhouse-
Five, Tarzan of the Apes, Brave New
World, Flowers for Algernon, Stephen
King's The Shining, John Gardner's Grendel,
and The Wizard of Oz, among others,
have run into trouble in this country
because of their content. (Some people
felt, incredibly, that 1984 promoted communism;
bad language snarled a number
of others, Tarzan and Jane were living in
sin, and The Happy Prince was challenged
because it was "distressing and morbid"--
well, jeez!)
However, some fundamentalist groups
have challenged fantasy books on the
basis that they are supposed to be occult
and connected with satanism or witchcraft
--that's what snagged The Wizard of
Oz, if you can believe that. The revolting
but amusing "Dark Dungeons" pamphlet
published by Chick Publications, which I
described in the editorial for DRAGON®
issue #182, urges the reader at one point
to burn all "occult books" that he or she
owns; a footnote clarifies this to include
"C. S. Lewis and Tolkien, both of which
can be found in occult bookstores." I even
have a clipping from the February 27,
1992 issue of the News Messenger, a newspaper
published in Marshall, Texas, in
which one of TSR's old FANTASY FOREST
multiple-plot paperbacks is accused of
using "mind control" tactics on young
readers. The argument put forth by those
opposing the book is that reading this
"pick-a-path" book will lead to satan worship
and cult activities. There are parts of
this article that I want very much to laugh
at, but it's hard to laugh because you
know these people are very, very serious
about their accusations.
As annoying and stupid-sounding as
anti-fantasy attacks can be, they are
merely the tip of the Titanic's iceberg. The
American Library Association's Office for
Intellectual Freedom keeps tabs on
attempts to ban or restrict public access
to any books, and many public libraries
have materials from the ALA on censorship
and book-banning that you might
find shocking. Among the other books
that have come under attack in this country
are some that you might even be reading
right now. They include: The American
Heritage Dictionary, The Merriam- Webster
Collegiate Dictionary, Catch-22, Lord of the
Flies, Oliver Twist, Jaws, Gone With the
Wind, The Adventures of Huckleberry
Finn, A Farewell to Arms, The Merchant of
Venice, Soul on Ice, Deenie, Native Son,
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, To Kill a
Mockingbird, Ulysses, Grapes of Wrath, All
Quiet on the Western Front, Serpico,
Elmer Gantry, The Bell Jar, The Sun Also
Rises, Catcher in the Rye, Death of a Salesman,
The Color Purple, Where the Sidewalk
Ends, and The Lorax by Dr. Seuss!
The people who really burn me up,
though, are the ones who have tried to
ban The Diary of Anne Frank. It’s been
tried several times. People who think that
The Wizard of Oz promotes witchcraft are
laughably foolish; they merely wish to
smack your hands with a ruler so you
won’t daydream. But I have difficulty
imagining the bottomless abyss of moral
and spiritual depravity to which someone
has sunk who is trying to ban Anne
Franks story. These people would put out
your eyes, blinding you to their bigotry,
then lead you by the trusting hand into
the inferno. You will hear the echoes of
Gestapo jackboots in every word they
utter, the most accursed of the cursed, the
lowest of the low.
I've taken a break to calm down, so we
can continue.

If the idea of boycotting Beauty and the
Beast because it promotes lycanthropy
often offer to teach us something, though
the lesson may be very unpleasant. Even
Mein Kampf is valuable in some sense, as it
shows the highly disturbed mental workings
of a major historical figure and
throws light on the origins of World War II
and the Holocaust. You can flip through it
and get a feel for how something as horrific
as the events in Anne Franks diary
could have possibly occurred, and why
we should never allow that to happen to
anyone else ever again.

Drop by your local library to ask about
the ALA's materials on banned books and
intellectual freedom. Check out the
Banned Books Week displays at local
libraries every September. Look up books
like Dave Marsh's 50 Ways to Fight Censorship
(it's fairly radical but still rather
entertaining). Keep an open mind and
open eyes and ears.

And if you want something good to
watch on TV, get a copy of Beauty and the
Beast at the video store and watch it with a
special friend or loved one. It's the best.

If involvement with role-playing games leads to
Satan worship and the “influences of evil power,"
then I suppose that after 10 years of working here
I should be one of the top evil high priests, which
would probably come as quite a surprise to my
family, my many friends, and those with whom I
attend worship services. Though I’ve not conducted
a poll here, It’s been my experience that my
100+ co-workers at TSR, Inc. are predominately
Christian, either Catholic or Protestant, with an
assortment of other religions. From overhearing
random conversations, I know that church-going is
a part of the lives of many people here. It’s interesting
that in all the negative antigaming crap that
I’ve seen, I’ve never seen anyone accuse TSR
people themselves of being satanists—only the
people who play the game are bad, not the ones
who make it. A peculiar distinction, no? Ignorant
rumors are like that.

Lots of people at TSR also have families, as is
evident when happy mothers bring in their
newborn babies or tired parents enlist their
older children to help stuff envelopes or sort
papers. No one here would tolerate or condone
the publication of material that we felt was
harmful to the public—and especially material
that was harmful to our own families!
Lots of people like our games. Some don’t and
that’s fine, but to accuse us of producing satanic
material is worse than ignorant; it is crudely
destructive and insanely stupid.

But, of course, that’s just my opinion.

Everyone has heard of the Dungeons and Dragons issue back in the 80's (maybe earlier?)

Does the bible speak poorly of such things? Would this be one of the things spoken of that enable others to sin?

Is it Dungeons and Dragons in general, specific? Would other games that involve things that are unGodly be wrong, or dangerous? Like games that are based on Vampires? Demons?

How about if you play a game of D+D and don't have multiple Gods? (An issue if you  believe in one God alone.)

Magic users? Sorcerers? Witches?

Is Dungeons and Dragons wrong, but if you play it Lord of the Ring style, is it now ok?

HOwever all of the things mentioned there are abou the person not their hobbies i mean would you vote fro someine who played Chess over someone who played football at the weekends.

You saying that WOW makes someone less of a politition becauswe it distracts them from their job could turn into Cooking for the family every night distracts them from their job so we need to buy all polititions a live in cook.

Or worse still WOW makes people less employable and so people shouldn;t get jobs who play WOW.

My partner has been a saint of the Lord, and I can attest that no mater what you may think, sometimes, he leaves blood on his tools and nicks in the blade. I have also seen pagan mages drawing down the power of older gods, and using it to make the world a better place, which cannot be done with the power of Hell. These things I have witnessed, with my own eyes, and therefore you may say what you like, but this is fact. Empirical evidence trumps all manner of belief.

We'd just go in circles since you've witnessed the occult genuinely and I know better from the word of God.

you've witnessed the occult genuinely and I know better from the word of God.

In reply to Revolutionary (msg # 156):

I would argue that God indeed does not know the future, and some of the verses you mention are evidence of that.  However, it is feasible that he instead has plans for every single possible decision and outcome that could occur.  In other words God knows all that is knowable, and the future is not included in that.

I'd say something about how Prescience, Infallibility, and Free Will don't mix, but it's not the appropriate thread to go into that.

Kathulos, could you explain why those quotes are out of context?

<.< and can somebody explain to me what's up with "g-d" and "L*rd"?  I've seen that before, and I don't really get it.

The Lord, for the Jonah example can change his mind, there's nothing about "repentance" in the moral aspect of the word, involved in changing his mind.

<.< and can somebody explain to me what's up with "g-d" and "L*rd"?  I've seen that before, and I don't really get it.

Ninevah also changed their minds, and then genuinely repented morally.

If you're a parent and you say "Jr. Clean your room Or I'll spank you" there's nothing wrong with that. If Jr. Says "No" you can. But if he says "Okay, I'll clean my woom." And he does it, then you are glad to change your mind right?

My partner has been a saint of the Lord, and I can attest that no mater what you may think, sometimes, he leaves blood on his tools and nicks in the blade.

Wow, this is a great conversation. However, to help keep things neat, I'd like to transplant it to a different thread:

link to a message in this game

I have no idea what any of this line means.