Very well, then I won't accuse you of Gish Galloping, and I apologize for any misconception between my meaning and your meaning of it, as I was simply using the word to describe how I felt about the matter, sans the negative connotations about the arguments.

Rather, that one is simply drowning the opponent in points and seeking to dismiss specific grievances with parts of the argument which the opponent feels he is knowledgeable enough to take issue with, because he was not addressing points which did not fall under these prerequisites.



Yes but that's still comparing a herbal form of the drug to a processed one; how much coca leaf would you have to consume to induce a lethal response?

Reference to a paper giving lethal doses for various drugs taken various ways, tested on rats or mice.  Page 4, you may have to flip it.

http://web.cgu.edu/faculty/gab...ction%20offprint.pdf

Cocaine: 1200mg
Marijuana: 15000mg

Now, the following calculations assume the following about the preceding and forward going data.

1. That these sources are accurate.
http://www.fsijournal.org/arti...5%2901860-3/abstract
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/...-potency-matter.html

2. That THC content % refers to the % that a gram of marijuana consists of being THC. (20% = 1/5 a gram of THC per gram of Weed).  I assume this because the link to Coca Leaves explains how the Cocaine Content % works, and I sought parsimony.

Since I don't know all that much about weed and I couldn't find any clarification through Google-searching, feel free to correct #2, given that you've more experience with the terminology.

So, with this in mind, the following is concluded; to overdose, you'd need to consume the following amounts of either Coca Leaves or Marijuana Leaves:

Marijuana: 330-331 pounds
Coca Leaf: ~1 pound

-----------



Thanks for the info, it will help; let's assume that the same amount of coca leaf was used per coke joint/cig.

You'd need to smoke around     274 coke joints for death.
You'd need to smoke around 166,821 marijuana joints for death.



He ah...doesn't have the source for that potato bit.  I don't normally consume my potatoes raw either :/, but then I also don't eat the green leaves at the end of my tomatoes.





I hardly understand how that refutes what I've said; I understand what a vaporizer is, I've seen them in the form of "electric cigarettes".



 Not if you took processed tobacco and used it in a vaporizer.  Tobacco companys add to much harmful crap into their stuff.  Natural tobacco smoked from a vaporizer is best.



Based on observation, evidence, and experimentation it probably follows there was one at one time, though nothing today is just an ape.



Hmm, interesting. Well water under the bridge as they say, and if you wish to discuss your concerns with Evolution or Evolutionary theory we have a thread for that.



Yes, I would.  It would follow naturally that if Coffee, which fits the description required to be a drug, contains a substance which gives it this characteristic, then anything else which has this substance would be a drug as well.

Are you saying that putting THC or cocaine in a tea wouldn't make that tea a drug?



Yes I know about caffeine ;), I have the recyclable bin full of 2-liters to prove it.

Yet then you'd need to qualify when you said "De-Caffeinated Coffee is not a drug", or "THC-less Marijuana is not a drug"

Cough Syrup is a drug, even if we know what in the cough syrup is causing the effect.



Water alters regular bodily functions?  Water is essential to regular bodily functions.  Jokes aside, Coffee isn't essential to regular bodily functions.

I read the entire page :) I know, thank you.



Irrelevant (although I will clarify, I was referring above to caffeinated coffee. I suppose someone could argue that decaf is a drug in those circumstances where it has a psychological effect on the user, but that's another can of worms.)



Also irrelevant. Lack of evidence isn't evidence of a lack.

Here is the entry for coffee on the 'internet drug database'
http://www.rxlist.com/coffee/supplements.htm

Here is an article titled "Coffee: America's Favorite Drug" care of Health.net
http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=800

By your definition, neither marijuana nor cocaine are drugs.



Water could be a drug in the case, above, where the user has a psychological reaction. For instance, if I color it red and tell you it's cough syrup, it may have a placebo effect. It is in fact a substance you take, and, due to a tangentally related, psychological process, alters the body's normal function.

However, under normal circumstances, water is not a drug because it only serves to maintain the normal bodily functions.

Coke joint is marijuana laced with cocaine, but you said you weren't fimiliar with terminology so you couldn't help it.  I can eat a pound of something in 15 minutes, but what I can't do is eat 330 pounds in 15 minutes.  I can't even eat that much in a day, probably not even a week, maybe if I'm really high.

Your comparisons prove my point.  It's impossible to OD on THC.  You'd have to eat 20852 of youe ice cream bars to OD.  But it's not really about the amount you take in, it's the amount of time you have to do it.  You can sling numbers all day, but the important one is 0.  As in ZERO deaths due to overdose.  That number thrumps anything you put up here.  Marijuana is non-lethal plain and simple.




My source is a paper put out by a DEA judge, enough said.





Your words say "allows you to get a lot more THC" which are wrong, it allows you to get the SAME amount of THC while getting less of the harmful biproducts since there is no actual flame.




Isn't tea already a drug?




Seems like you have an addiction.  Might I suggest you seek someone for help as addictions only hurt the ones around you.

Let me put these up. Both can be found at  http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#harms.  I believe it was Heath who brought up the point about marijuana and it's effects but people skipping work.

Myth: Marijuana's Harms Have Been Proved Scientifically. In the 1960s and 1970s, many people believed that marijuana was harmless. Today we know that marijuana is much more dangerous than previously believed.

Fact: In 1972, after reviewing the scientific evidence, the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse concluded that while marijuana was not entirely safe, its dangers had been grossly overstated. Since then, researchers have conducted thousands of studies of humans, animals, and cell cultures. None reveal any findings dramatically different from those described by the National Commission in 1972. In 1995, based on thirty years of scientific research editors of the British medical journal Lancet concluded that "the smoking of cannabis, even long term, is not harmful to health."

•United States. National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse. Marihuana: A signal of misunderstanding. Shafer Commission Report. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1972.
•“Deglamorising Cannabis.” Editorial. The Lancet 356:11(1995): 1241.

Myth: Marijuana Causes an Amotivational Syndrome. Marijuana makes users passive, apathetic, and uninterested in the future. Students who use marijuana become underachievers and workers who use marijuana become unproductive.

Fact: For twenty-five years, researchers have searched for a marijuana-induced amotivational syndrome and have failed to find it. People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first.

•Himmelstein, J.L. The Strange Career of Marihuana: Politics and Ideology of Drug Control in America. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1983.
•Mellinger, G.D. et al. “Drug Use, Academic Performance, and Career Indecision:  Longitudinal Data in Search of a Model.” Longitudinal Research on Drug Use:  Empirical Findings and Methodological Issues. Ed. D.B. Kandel. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 1978. 157-177.
•Pope, H.G. et al., “Drug Use and Life Style Among College Undergraduates in 1989:  A Comparison With 1969 and 1978,” American Journal of Psychiatry 147 (1990): 998-1001.

It's mainly those last things.  "subject...exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity"  It even says they tend to earn higher wages.

And as for students, it's called the blame game.  A parent finds out his failing kid is smoking marijuana.  Instead of just accepting that the kid is a loser, they want to believe their kid is awesome and cast blame on the scapegoat.


AS FOR WATER

1. Does it alter normal bodily functions?
2. Is it used in the treatment of certain illnesses or to otherwise enhance physical/mental well-being?
3. Does it affect the nervous system?
4. Is it introduced to the body from outside?
5. Does it cause addiction or habituation?

1. Yes, the normal bodily function is the dehydrate itself.
2. Yes, heat related illnesses.
3. Yes, your brain is 85% water.
4. Obviously.
5. Depends on the person.  I myself always have a bottled water with me.  Water is the only thing I drink.  I'd say I'm more addicted to water that marijuana as I think I HAVE TO HAVE IT TO LIVE.

Using your own 5 questions I've shown water is a drug.

lets see, 330 pounds at about 5% thc means 16.5 lbs of pure THC. Difficult at least under normal circumstances but given that it causes munchies... you are talking competition level eating there though...

And I suppose the DEA can say anything without providing evidence and it's true?  Surely if he's making such a claim as to say that 10 potatoes are poisonous they'd have some sort of article to back that up.



It's hot water until you add the appropriate leaf, then it becomes tea.



Can you smoke 274 coke joints in 15 minutes? (If you'd prefer I use a different term for a joint using coke leaves instead of marijuana, feel free to offer the correct term)



Yes, it does prove your point.  But it also proves my point, that prepared properly it's also impossible to OD on coke.



No; it fails 2/5 of the requirements, and this is why:

@1. The normal bodily functions require water to persist.  Dehydration is not normal bodily function, anymore than a heart attack. It's a failure of bodily functions.

@5. No, it does not cause habituation or addiction.  That requires that over time with usage your body develops a resistance to it, so that the same amount you've been taking is less effective to maintain the same effect. This isn't the case with water.

I don't have to provide a source for my source.  As a judge he is obligated to be truthful.  If you have a dispute with what he says take it up with him.




Isn't coffee the same way, just hot water with the appropriate bean?  What's your point.  If I add marijuana or cocaine to either coffee or tea, it doesn't change the fact that it was a "drug" before the addition of marijuana or cocaine.



No, but that still doesn't disprove the fact that you can overdose on Cocaine/Coca plant while it's impossible to do so on Marijuana.



No, you can OD on coke.  Maybe not by smoking it, but I said before.  I can eat a pound in 15 minutes.  Lots of people can.  They were your stats.

Drug overdose often happens as a result of the use of multiple drugs with counter indications simultaneously (for instance, heroin/certain prescription pain medications and cocaine/amphetamines/alcohol.) Usage of illicit drugs that are of unexpected purity, in large quantities, or after a period of abstinence can also induce overdose. Cocaine users that inject intravenously can overdose accidentally as the margin between an optimal flash and an overdose is small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_overdose

Cocaine and Crack cocaine are danderous for the simple fact of you don't know the purity or the mixture.





No, my body doesn't produce water, but it sure uses the shit out of it.  Any person who works out knows the normal function of the body is to consume itself.

Who are you to say my water addiction isn't a psychological dependency.  in my mind I believe I must have water to keep myself the way I am and am therefore dependant on water.  If fat people claim to be addicted to food, why can't I be addicted to water?

The definition isn't 'does your body produce it naturally'. It is, 'does the chemical alter how your body normally operates'. If you drink a glass of water, it does not change your body from how it normally operates.

HOWEVER, yes, hypothetically, you could be psychologically addicted (or afraid of) water, and in that case, imbibing water would create an abnormal physical reaction. But I've never heard of that situation before, and it's an extremely, extremely specialized case, and it's not caused by use. No matter how much water you drink, you will not become 'addicted'. It would have to be caused by an outside source, such as disease.

imbibing.. why can't you just say "drink"?  purhaps "taking in" would better fit.

Water is a chemical and it does alter your bodies normal functions.  What about the more water I add to my body, the more I must use the restroom.  What about Water intoxication?  Too much water seriously disrupts your bodies normal functions.

You've never heard of that situation, but wouldn't that fall under your "lack of evidence is not evidence of lack"?

I have to agree--at least according to my wife I'm an ape.  :)

Okay guys, stop showing off. Some of us are HAPPY being in Atelidae.



I don't know. I guess to include eating. Just seemed like the right word at the time.



I'm starting to wonder what you consider 'normal bodily functions', since it sounds like your normal bodily functions do not include going to the bathroom, or containing fluid. Are you a mummy?



I've heard of water intoxication, and indeed, sufficient quantities of water can have unfortunate (and non-normal) side effects. However, that's still a very specific case. Excessive amounts of truck will have strange side effects, if misapplied, but that doesn't make it a drug. But even a small amount of THC will have abnormal (if difficult to measure) physiological effects. Hence, THC is a drug - it always produces non-normal effects. Water and trucks are not drugs - they only produce non-normal effects when applied under particular, extreme conditions.

How do you apply a little bit of truck?

Trucks?  Like ford and chevy or is that a fancy word for something else that the common man doesn't know?

My bodies natural function is to eat itself to sustain itself.  If I don't eat breakfast in the morning that my muscles are what gets consumed.  If I'm out being active and need the extra energy than it's fat that is consumed.  My body is my biggest enemy because the hard work I put into it is ruined if I don't maintain myself my body will destroy itself.  Water effectively changes many things my body does.

If I crap twice a day and piss about four times a day, that's a normal bodily function.  If I drink excessive amounts of water or take in massive amounts of food causing my body to crap four times and piss constantly isn't that changing my normal body function, which is to do it twice and four times?  Is raising piss rates not changing the "norm"

This is getting stupid.  I can run ya'll around all day, but as for Marijuana.  It's proven that the War on Marijuana was brought on by racism and corruption.  Why be so ignorant to continue to defend something thats been proven was lied about.  Unless you're(not pointed at anyone) corrupt or purhaps.. RACIST!

I'm not sure if you're serious or joking...

Since these claims are clearly not "proven" or even remotely accurate, I'll assume you're joking.

Carefully.




Corrupt, but I'm not on that payroll.

Just because something was started for a bad reason doesn't mean it should be ended. Personally I think marijuana should be legalized but the argument that it should be legalized because it was started for corrupt and racist reasons is itself faulty. Consider for example the possible suggestion that the groundwork for the anti-slavery movement was laid by Thomas Jefferson and his lust for one of his slaves. Does that make the end of slavery a bad thing? Clearly (at least from a modern persepctive) not.

That's good reasoning.  So he was serious?

Fair enough, if you don't want to back up your sources you don't have to, but I don't have to accept them if they don't meet my standards of evidence, so it cuts both ways.

Saying that he doesn't need to back up his arguments to show they're truthful because he's supposed to be is pretty circular reasoning though, and I'd need at least a paper showing the effects on lab rats to justify what seems like a fairly interesting claim.




Tea is water + boiled leaves.  Usually some strain of Tea plant, but not necessarily.



It's possible to overdose on THC, if you really wanted to.  The same could be said for Coke, if you really wanted to eat a pound of coca leaves.

Or if you wanted to boil off the MJ and dissolve the THC into some oil you could OD by drinking a couple pure glasses.

But if your intention is not to fatally overdose, then obviously you wouldn't do this.



But why would you?



And this wouldn't be a problem if cocaine were legalized and regulated; you don't know what you're buying because you're buying it illegally.  There's no warnings on the box telling you what not to mix, and there's nothing that says how pure it is either.

This wouldn't be the case were it legalized and the people selling it expected to conform to health and safety standards of some kind.



This isn't really up for an interpretation, I'm talking medically here; the body consuming itself is an abnormal condition.  Dehydration is an abnormal condition.



Here's a few things to note:

1) Most of your body is made up of water.

2) Water is not an addicting substance, it's something that you're biologically dependant on.

3) Food is addicting, but it is not a drug, since the source of the habituation is produced by the body.  Obesity is usually due to high leptin intolerance, which reduces the feeling of satiety you get from eating the same amount of food.

4) Here's a Thought:  Marijuana is a Drug, but any THC produced by your body naturally wouldn't be.  This is why Ecstasy is a drug, but exercise is not.

@ Silveroak

Oh yes, I'm not against the end result, I'm just against his arguments :P

He seems very obsessed with making fun of how I "talk", and insinuating that I was putting him down by talking this way.

I'm pretty sure I always talk like this, although if there's any change it could be a combination of being in college right now, and also on an 1800-calorie diet, and taking Prozac.

Now if only marijuana could be like Prozac and increase productivity and happiness.  ;)

Oh, wait, I think smokers might claim it does--at least the happiness part...until the cancer and dead brain cells kick in.

I actually voted to make "medical" marijuana legal many years back.  Since then, I've read a lot of literature that makes me think I voted wrongly, and especially seeing the abuse that's risen in California due to "medical" usage.  It's created its own kind of underground evasion of the medical marijuana laws.

You're mixing an 1800 calorie diet and prozac? Are you sure that's safe? ;)

But seriously THC is not produced by teh body, there is a similar chemical which is produced by the body which has a more narrow effect. It breaks down quickly in fatty tissue, and the precursor chemicals can be found in some foods.

Like chocolate.

I'm not sure, but hey they prescribed it so if it isn't at least I'll have a healthy settlement to look forward to if I survive :P

Yes, chocolate causes your body to produce natural opioids...so I guess it wouldn't be a drug then.

I can't handle chocolate anymore though; solid sweets started hurting my teeth ever since my wisdoms came in; ChampVA doesn't cover dental so I have to come up with the money to get them removed sans deductions :/

You haven't read about Harry J. Anslinger?  His quotes alone prove his racist while his motives prove corrupt.  He is the reason there is a War of Marijuana.



I know I'll probably catch flak for this, but I don't feel slavery, if practiced the way God commanded, was wrong.  I am not condoning slavery, but I also believe that it was also Mosaic Law that wasn't replaced by some teachings of Jesus.  I do not believe you should beat or abuse anyone, but how people treat their property is not really my business.  I'm not jewish so those law's really don't apply to my, and I'm not sure what God's view on non-jews owning slaves.  I wouldn't have one because it would make my life as a stay at home trophy boyfriend really boring.



He's a judge who put out a ruling after hearing two sides.
http://www.druglibrary.org/ols...cal/young/young.html
Page 1 states who appeared while Page 4 shows a little more information about those people.  If your really interested in what they said I'm sure you can go from there.



Isn't that kind of what I said.  Herbal tea's are still remedies, believed to have some beneficial effects.  Still original point please?



I'm not sure you quite know what you're talking about.  This isn't up in smoke.. there is no such thing as fiber weed or 100% pure THC.  If by some crazy chance that there was a chance to OD on THC, don't you think that at least one time it would have happened by now?   Even with odds like 1:1000000000, shouldn't it have happened at least one time by now?  You can sit here and claim you can OD on it, but once again the zero speaks for itself.



Suicide would be my first guess as to why someone would eat a crap loud of something that could kill you.



There is a legal cocaine.  It's safe but you can still OD off of it.  But I'm not here for cocaine.



It's not abnormal.  It's completely normal for your body to look to itself for food and water.  It's not a genetic defect or some crazy disease.

1800 calories a day?!?!  Thats insane.  I don't think I had an intake as low as that since I left middle school.  I'm not big on counting, but I'm also not big on changing routine so my range is 2600 to 3000.

I'm not really sure, I was just responding to what you said.  What was the point you were looking for?



If overdose wasn't possible, then what was up with all those numbers you were feeding me a while earlier?  Just going to throw that argument out, are you?

They determined those numbers by killing rats with THC.



Oh darn, I tried to kill myself with marijuana but it didn't work?  If they're trying to purposely OD they don't need cocaine to do it.

Accidental OD wouldn't happen at the levels legalization would allow for. For purposeful OD it's not like they were going to try it with a drug they couldn't OD on.  If they were really determined they'd just mix bleach with ammonia and breath deeply of it.



Again, in medicine and medine-related fields, which are the only contexts that drug has any meaning, dehydration is an abnormal condition.

It is not normal for you to have water deficiency.  At levels which you are considered dehydrated you are not at normal bodily functions.

http://ebn.bmj.com/content/8/2/57.full.pdf

It's not something you can apply apologetics at, it's a concrete term with very specific meanings.  Dehydration is an abnormal condition; deficiency of water, Starvation is an abnormal condition; deficiency of calories.  Being deficient in THC is not an abnormal condition.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:24, Fri 01 Oct 2010.

I'm not sure his quotes actually prove anything.  You'll have to be more specific.  Besides, he was in the 1930s.  Marijuana started becoming illegal in 1906, and the "War on Drugs" was instituted by President Nixon in 1971.

So I'm still not connecting the dots here...