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00:57, 6th May 2024 (GMT+0)

Six Days:Literal or Metaphor.

Posted by rogue4jcFor group 0
katisara
GM, 5431 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 22 Jan 2013
at 20:19
  • msg #27

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

I totally don't, but I guess I could argue it if I'd had enough to drink.
hakootoko
player, 64 posts
Tue 22 Jan 2013
at 22:17
  • msg #28

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

I guess no one talking at the moment (certainly not me). So, if I can hijack this thread...

At what point do people think the OT transitions from myth to a history of the hebrew people? The OT contains a number of different things: myth, history with a religious narrative, law, and parable. If we all agree that the biblical account of creation is not historical, then we should each have an idea of where it becomes historical.

Personally, I put this before the time when the Hebrews moved to Egypt. I have read of historians (not writing "religious history") comparing the story of Joseph in Egypt to actual conditions in Egypt to determine its plausibility. The mythical and supernatural elements in Joseph are few, which makes it a good candidate for having a historical basis.

Abraham has too many mythical attributes around him, similar to how other ethnic progenitors, for me to consider him historical. He lacks sufficient interaction with other documented peoples to determine a historical context for him.

So my answer to my own question would be "somewhere between Abraham and Joseph."
Heath
GM, 5004 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Tue 22 Jan 2013
at 22:22
  • msg #29

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Their language is very metaphorical in general, particularly back then.  I do not think there is a point when you can say it becomes "historical" per se.

That's like saying, "When is it that someone says 'I told you a million times' and means it literally?  After 1920? After 2000?  Never?"  It's an exaggeration built into our language.

At one point the Old Testament talks about a battle, but it is believed that the battle was a cautionary tale made up as the Israelites traveled and they came across an old battleground.  I want to say it was Oe or some strange place like that.  Then Jesus had parables, which we don't take as literal.

To answer your question, I think it's on a case by case basis.  I do think the genealogy part of it is literal but not in the father-son sort of way, but rather "descended from" sort of way, so even that is not totally literal.  So if John begat Sam, it doesn't mean John is Sam's father, it means that Sam is a descendant of John (though they could be father son).  This truncated genealogy then omits minor or insignificant figures (maybe even unrighteous ones) from the family history.
Malookus
player, 45 posts
friendly neighborhood
werewolf
Fri 1 Mar 2013
at 05:04
  • msg #30

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

waves
Hello friends new and old here!
braces paws
*** here goes a proverbial wrench into the works .... ***
pyyro - Post 18:
... it's fair to mention that arguing that the bible is stating that the earth was literally created in six 24 hour days is counter-productive ....

2 Peter 3:18:
.... One Day is with the Lord a thousand years ...

widens one eye
... And the widely variable rotational speed of this Earth over the recent millenniums can NOT be totally ignored here.
smiles.
Only 6 of our Earth days?!  Whould NOT that leave out fun things here like:
    Neaderthals?
    Ice Age?
    Dinosaurs?

--------
hakootoko - post 28:
... At what point do people think the OT transitions from myth to a history of the hebrew people? ...

shifts weight
I perceive much knowledge and history has been lost in translation over millenniums past!  Where myth becomes history looks nearly as broad (NOT less than a millennium) to me.
smiles
I understand, After Jesus Christ comes soon, we will know abundantly about this Earth's construction, inhabitants and history.
revelatory aside
including from those who lived that history!

 |\,/|
< * * >
  \_/
   -

This message was last edited by the player at 05:08, Sat 02 Mar 2013.
Trust in the Lord
player, 136 posts
Wed 25 Dec 2013
at 05:47
  • msg #31

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
*sigh*

The bible actually lists two creation stories in genesis, which while not exactly contradictory, they do differ on details.  Now, my supposition is that they were two separate oral traditions, which were merged together to form the first part of genesis.

More to the point, the two stories only truly contradict each other if you take them both literally.  The seven day account makes it clear man was made last, while the Adam and Eve myth says Adam came before everything else.  This isn't a serious problem if you think of the seven days as a metaphor.

Well, there's actually a reasonable explanation. And if literal, are still non contradictory.

Genesis 1 describes the 7 days of creation.
Genesis 2 describes what happened in greater detail on day 6.

It's non contradictory.
Trust in the Lord
player, 137 posts
Wed 25 Dec 2013
at 05:54
  • msg #32

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Malookus:
waves
Hello friends new and old here!
braces paws
*** here goes a proverbial wrench into the works .... ***
pyyro - Post 18:
... it's fair to mention that arguing that the bible is stating that the earth was literally created in six 24 hour days is counter-productive ....

2 Peter 3:18:
.... One Day is with the Lord a thousand years ...

widens one eye
... And the widely variable rotational speed of this Earth over the recent millenniums can NOT be totally ignored here.
smiles.
Only 6 of our Earth days?!  Whould NOT that leave out fun things here like:
    Neaderthals?
    Ice Age?
    Dinosaurs?

these shouldn't be real issues with a literal 6 day creation.

Dinosaurs can still be created in the first 6 days.

Neanderthals are already reclassed as homo sapien, so could have been created that way.

Ice age shouldn't be a problem, since it wouldn't need to be created during creation, but could happen any time after it.
Grandmaster Cain
player, 618 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Thu 26 Dec 2013
at 22:57
  • msg #33

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Trust in the Lord:
Grandmaster Cain:
*sigh*

The bible actually lists two creation stories in genesis, which while not exactly contradictory, they do differ on details.  Now, my supposition is that they were two separate oral traditions, which were merged together to form the first part of genesis.

More to the point, the two stories only truly contradict each other if you take them both literally.  The seven day account makes it clear man was made last, while the Adam and Eve myth says Adam came before everything else.  This isn't a serious problem if you think of the seven days as a metaphor.

Well, there's actually a reasonable explanation. And if literal, are still non contradictory.

Genesis 1 describes the 7 days of creation.
Genesis 2 describes what happened in greater detail on day 6.

It's non contradictory.


*sigh*  Look again.  I suggest you read the bible before commenting, its less embarassing.

One account says Adam was made first (the second story) while the first says Adam came last.  What you say is still wrong, even if the second account was just an expansion of the sixth day (it's not, btw).
Trust in the Lord
player, 160 posts
Thu 26 Dec 2013
at 23:40
  • msg #34

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

How so Cain? Where does it say that Adam was created first in genesis 2?

This is a fairly well recognized point by the people who are educated in history and jewish culture. This isn't something new or unheard of. So I question why you feel they are wrong about this?
Grandmaster Cain
player, 619 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Thu 26 Dec 2013
at 23:58
  • msg #35

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

All right, I'll humor you.  Here's the KJV version of the bible, with the relevent parts highlighted:
quote:
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.


So, we see that the beasts and certain plants were formed after Adam was made.  Except that just before, we see this:

quote:
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Now, this isn't a contradiction if you don't take the seven day account literally.  Then, it's just a metaphor.  Most of the bible scholars you allude to resolve this contradiction thusly.  But that pretty much proves the six day story is just that: a story, an allegory.
Trust in the Lord
player, 161 posts
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 03:17
  • msg #36

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

If you look at both sections of scripture, you'll notice that in Genesis 1, it has a chronological order of creation.

In the 2nd chapter of Genesis, you'll note it isn't the creation of all things, no mention of the stars, planets or even fish are spoken of. More so, you'll note starting in verse 5, that the word for plants is actually different than the word used for plants in Genesis 1. I am quoting from Amplified, as it makes it more clear that the type of plants that the scholards and historians consider the correct use. It refers to the plants of the field. Crop land, farm land.

You'll see many references to the garden of Eden having plants that are good to eat, and need to be worked by man. (no man to till the land) Simply put, the type of farmland plants in the Garden of Eden were pointed out that they were waiting to grow for man to come and work them.

Note, that animals being formed in the garden of Eden does not mean they were created only on that day. It makes no mention of the fish for example. Considering that the creation is not a complete creation, (Example, no mention of Earth, stars, heavens, day, night, or fish, it would not be considered a conflict to the previous account from chapter 1. )

And considering that Chapter 2 naturally follows chapter 1, it seems reasonable that the author did not forget what happened on days 1-5, but focused on the events in the Garden of Eden with man.



Bible amplified:
5 When no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not [yet] caused it to rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the ground,

6 But there went up a mist (fog, vapor) from the land and watered the whole surface of the ground—

7 Then the Lord God formed man from the [a]dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden [delight]; and there He put the man whom He had formed (framed, constituted).

9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight or to be desired—good (suitable, pleasant) for food; the tree of life also in the center of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of [the difference between] good and evil and blessing and calamity.

10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four [river] heads.

11 The first is named Pishon; it is the one flowing around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.

12 The gold of that land is of high quality; bdellium (pearl?) and onyx stone are there.

13 The second river is named Gihon; it is the one flowing around the whole land of Cush.

14 The third river is named Hiddekel [the Tigris]; it is the one flowing east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and guard and keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

18 Now the Lord God said, It is not good (sufficient, satisfactory) that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper (suitable, adapted, complementary) for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every [wild] beast and living creature of the field and every bird of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatever Adam called every living creature, that was its name.

Grandmaster Cain
player, 620 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 03:58
  • msg #37

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

And you're still contradicting yourself.  Your "logic" is badly twisted and attempting to justify a conclusion you've already drawn.  If you simply said "it's a metaphor", then the contradiction erases itself.
Trust in the Lord
player, 165 posts
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 04:05
  • msg #38

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Just going by the what the historian and cultural experts say about the original language. It's not really my research, but people far more educated then me, or you.

But in the end, if you're just saying there's a contradiction, okay. There's no real evidence you're presenting that I need to counter. If you're countering the use of original language and meaning, what word are you suggesting is wrong?
Grandmaster Cain
player, 623 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 04:28
  • msg #39

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Well, for one, I'm clearly more educated on the bible than you are, and I've shown the contradiction.  If we accept the seven days as a metaphor, then there's nothing wrong, it's just different parts of the same story.  It's only when someone tries to take both as the literal truth that you have to worry about minor contradictions.
Trust in the Lord
player, 166 posts
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 04:41
  • msg #40

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
Well, for one, I'm clearly more educated on the bible than you are,
And clearly more humble too.  ;)
I have to admit the image of you stamping your foot when you posted this did made me snicker a little.



 
Cain:
and I've shown the contradiction.  If we accept the seven days as a metaphor, then there's nothing wrong, it's just different parts of the same story.  It's only when someone tries to take both as the literal truth that you have to worry about minor contradictions.
Because you feel a metaphor explanation could work, then no one should look at literal reading explanations?

That's not a compelling argument to ignore explanations for a literal reading.
Grandmaster Cain
player, 624 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 05:39
  • msg #41

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

No, the fact that a literal reading creates a contradiction (but an allegorical one does not) is pretty compelling.

Tell me, do you believe everything in the bible is literally true?
Trust in the Lord
player, 168 posts
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 05:48
  • msg #42

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
No, the fact that a literal reading creates a contradiction (but an allegorical one does not) is pretty compelling.
To clarify, you're only stating there's a contradiction. The experts say there isn't one, and show why it's not.

Cain:
Tell me, do you believe everything in the bible is literally true?
No, it's not all literally true.
Grandmaster Cain
player, 626 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 05:49
  • msg #43

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Trust in the Lord:
Grandmaster Cain:
No, the fact that a literal reading creates a contradiction (but an allegorical one does not) is pretty compelling.
To clarify, you're only stating there's a contradiction. The experts say there isn't one, and show why it's not.

Yes, and the answer is because it's a metaphor.
quote:
Cain:
Tell me, do you believe everything in the bible is literally true?
No, it's not all literally true.

Then why is it so hard to accept that the seven day account might not be literally true?
Trust in the Lord
player, 170 posts
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 06:11
  • msg #44

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
Trust in the Lord:
Grandmaster Cain:
No, the fact that a literal reading creates a contradiction (but an allegorical one does not) is pretty compelling.
To clarify, you're only stating there's a contradiction. The experts say there isn't one, and show why it's not.

Yes, and the answer is because it's a metaphor.
You forgot the little semi colon bracket. Without it, it's harder to tell when you mean to be funny. ;)

Cain:
Cain:
Cain:
Tell me, do you believe everything in the bible is literally true?
No, it's not all literally true.

Then why is it so hard to accept that the seven day account might not be literally true?

Because the book of genesis is written as history, and it even says that this is the account of history when it comes to the creation.

Genesis 2:4:
This is the history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created. In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens—


Genesis 5:1:
This is the book (the written record, the history) of the generations of the offspring of Adam.

Grandmaster Cain
player, 627 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Fri 27 Dec 2013
at 06:16
  • msg #45

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

In reply to Trust in the Lord (msg # 44):

And history can never be told as a metaphor...?
Trust in the Lord
player, 179 posts
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 18:35
  • msg #46

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
In reply to Trust in the Lord (msg # 44):

And history can never be told as a metaphor...?

That's not a particularly good reason to assume it's a metaphor because you've seen history in that way. I've seen history explained as literal history, so now you should consider Genesis as literal because history can be told as literal.


The reason why literal makes sense, is because if you look at Genesis, much of it is written as literal. It describes passing of time by days, describing how long a day is, locations, names of people and places, routes of travel, describing markers within those locations, etc.

So at this point, since historians state that a literal read does not make it a contradiction, are you just saying that it should be read as a metaphor because you thought there was a contradiction?

Was there other reasons to consider it a metaphor based on the way it's written? For example, when Jesus spoke of parables, he said it was a parable, or compared it to something else that gave hints it wasn't a literal event. What clues are you using from the scripture that says metaphor and not literal?
Grandmaster Cain
player, 632 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 21:15
  • msg #47

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Well, when you consider the Hebrew word for history is pretty much tied into their word for "story" or "Oral tradition", then yes, it's safe to assume that they might be speaking in metaphor.
Trust in the Lord
player, 184 posts
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 22:40
  • msg #48

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
Well, when you consider the Hebrew word for history is pretty much tied into their word for "story" or "Oral tradition", then yes, it's safe to assume that they might be speaking in metaphor.

Sorry, are you talking about something in Genesis that should be translated differently or just the jewish language?

If language, are you saying anytime it says history, it should be a metaphor and not literal?

So when it speaks of Abraham in Genesis and his wife, servants, travels, and actions, those are metaphors?
Grandmaster Cain
player, 634 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 22:48
  • msg #49

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

It's like the "history" of George Washington and the cherry tree.  The terms used refer to oral traditions and stories, not necessarily literal histories.  At any event, you're reading far too much into one word.  The fact remains, there's a contradiction in the tales that can be easily resolved if you accept the six day account as a metaphor.
Trust in the Lord
player, 185 posts
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 23:23
  • msg #50

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

Grandmaster Cain:
It's like the "history" of George Washington and the cherry tree.  The terms used refer to oral traditions and stories, not necessarily literal histories.  At any event, you're reading far too much into one word.  The fact remains, there's a contradiction in the tales that can be easily resolved if you accept the six day account as a metaphor.

I understand you're saying there's a contradiction. But you can say there's also a big rhino eating mountains, under the sea.

Saying there's one doesn't mean there is though.
Grandmaster Cain
player, 636 posts
Meddling son of
a bezelwort
Sat 28 Dec 2013
at 23:26
  • msg #51

Re: Six Days:Literal or Metaphor

I proved there's a contradiction.  You haven't proven anything, as is typical for you.
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