It's a choice. God allows you free will.

Do you get to choose to leave?  Do you have free will once you're in Hell?

Also, I would disagree that it's a choice.  At least if "it" means believing in Jesus (which is what most protestants say is needed to avoid hell).  You can choose your actions, but what you believe is an unconcious action.  You can't make yourself believe something just because you want to (or at least I can't).

Further, what if the person doesn't know about hell?  Is it an informed choice if they don't know what they are getting into?

Lastly, why did God create hell?  Why make a place so horrible?  Why force people to make such a "choice" in the first place?  Most of the time when someone says "Do X, or I'll do something really horrible to you," it's called coercion.  Calling it a choice seems to deflect any blame from the one who forced the choice in the first place.

I tend to lean towards the LDS view myself.  The best way I've heard it described is imagine as you get closer to God, you feel your sins magnified.  They make you feel ashamed, afraid, angry, sad.  I'm sure we can all understand the feeling of remorse one has when you hurt someone who cares about you.  Magnify that a million times over.

So people have a choice, either they can somehow get their sins cleansed and embrace God, or they can run away and avoid the (temporary but severe) pain of self-criticism.

So it's not that God is actively enforcing this, He is simply letting us suffer the natural results of our actions.  If we cannot ask forgiveness and humble ourselves, we simply won't survive in His presence.


I also wonder if the idea of 'your soul goes to heaven or hell' isn't as literal as it sounds.  No where in the bible does it say (although it is implied) that we will remain conscious, distinct entities after death.  It is possible that a good soul becomes part of God or a part of heaven (rather than a resident of heaven) and a bad soul deteriorates and rots, "natural" processes maintained by a God who we've always assumed is like an old man who knows everything, but is ultimately an alien (in that He is beyond our understanding) intelligence.

Sorry, but can you give me the reference again?

I agree with both Tycho and Katisara above.  Punishment from God is not really punishment per se.  Either you shrink away from God and remain in your sins...dirty and unable to be with God...or you repent, enjoy the blessing of forgiveness while the sin is vindicated (i.e. the punishment must be sufficient to change your being enough so that you will not repeat it...a "change of heart").  The visions of heaven and hell are just metaphorical.  I'm not aware of them being so literal until after Christianity swept through the Roman empire and started adopting its beliefs.

Luke 16:19-31

(Some bit about a begger named Lazarus and a rich guy.  They both croak.)



(And some bit about how the rich guy's brothers will believe in God if they're warned by a spirit of Christma... no wait, sorry.  A spirit of the dead, but Moses says no, if they didn't believe the prophets, they won't believe a ghost rattling chains in their living room and taking them through time to examine their past sins.)

Okay, so you have a rich guy being terrible to the beggar and the beggar suffering through life, but then when they die, justice takes effect on the rich man and the beggar has been made good through his struggles.

My interpretation is that this has a couple meanings to convey:  1)  our actions in life are important, since we only live once, 2) evil and dirty things cannot enter into the kingdom of God, whereas good things also do not pass this "gulf" to enter into dirty areas to become themselves soiled, and 3) we continue to persist as sentient beings after death.

Since this is only a parable, it is something we should be careful not to take too far.  We could read into it many things that were not meant, but it takes advantage of familiar Jewish symbolisms and images to make the point.

I did see this, which I thought interesting:

Interesting, yes, but it seems a little fallacious (at least assuming your explanation works).

Specifically, as in your interpretation, the two people represent not humans, but personifications of good and evil.  It isn't that rich men can't go to heaven, or a soul in hell can't gain forgiveness, but rather that goodness cannot be in hell and wickedness cannot be in heaven.  A person can go from hell to heaven if he leaves behind the rich man and becomes the beggar.

However we then have a conflict because Jesus' teaching is "wrong" - in the parable there's a man who cannot under any circumstances go to heaven, but we accept that God is always ready to forgive.  Hence we believe that Jesus example was factually wrong for the sake of having a valuable message.  There's nothing new here.  Jesus is God, and God has given us information that is factually wrong, but metaphorically impeccable (see also: 7 days of creation).

So we're left with the fact that Jesus does not necessarily say things labeled "parable" as fact.  There may not have been a land-owner whose son was killed by tenants seeking not to have to pay their dues.  But that's okay, we follow Jesus Christ, not Dan Rather.

So if we accept that Lazarus and the rich man are personifications of abstract ideas, there is no reason to assume that their personification is somehow representative of our being cognizant after death.

Of course, if you believe that this story literally happened, and that once you're in hell it is impossible to gain forgiveness and impossible to enter heaven, you are, of course, able to say with confidence that people will be cognizant after death.  However, as Tycho has pointed out, the question then becomes one of how a "fair" God can condemn a person to an eternity of suffering for a finite period of sinfulness, regardless as to the post-mortem repentance.

I disagree.  Jesus said "man" and I think that's what he meant...especially since he was teaching to people and giving them their own warning.

Not sure I agree with this either. I agree to the point, I guess.  It's just that he is talking specifically about the good or bad in people, not good or bad as concepts.

But I think the point is that he's talking about after final judgment, where the man had the chance but did not repent.  He's also not talking about repentance at all here, just the gulf between wickedness and goodness.  To start injecting talk of forgiveness is to go beyond the parable.


Except that he was talking about specific people with good or bad in them, not personifications.  Also, Jesus would be confusing people if he started talking about people with intelligences after they died when there really was no such thing.  So I don't buy that interpretation.

But it's not about it literally happening as much as that it can happen to a person, which is the point for the people to get their act together.  If he's talking about concepts, there's not as much point to it.

You choose to not accept God's free gift. You chose to go your own route. God let you live with your choice. Since it is for eternity, I don't see how you can change your mind so that it changes eternity. The choice isn't about being perfect, the choice is accepting God, or choosing against God. Your choice.


The choice is accepting Jesus as your savior, that he paid the price you were supposed to pay, for all your sins, not just some of them. And that you are going to follow Jesus.

But really, if you're asking God, God is saying He doesn't want you there either. He's doing everything He can to keep you out.

That means I am choosing that anyone that says God is not there is completely wrong. I accep this, as it's my choice. I can easily choose to stop following God. I would think that foolish, but I could choose to do that.

God says we all know in our hearts who He is.


Hell was created foo the devil, and the demons that rebelled with the devil. Why make it horrible? I would think it is a punishment for the actions of those demons.

Why force the choice? Really, it's because God wants you in heaven. He's doing everything He can so that you will choose what's best for you. However, many people seem to want to send themselves away from God. God doesn't want that.

while God and other christians would like to force you to Heaven, only the devil wants you to choose for you not to go there.

If you show me a man that can never ask for forgiveness, I will agree.  But the statement is clear - nothing you (the rich man) can do will let him enter heaven.  If he is human, then that flies in the face of your idea that a human is still transient after death.  If he's not human, but the "bad in people" (which is not a person), then the man is a personification, a metaphor.



The 'good in a person' is closer to 'good' in general than to a person.  Again, if you find a person who can only be described as "good" or "evil" and who cannot go from one to the other, I will agree that the parable is referring truly to people and not concepts.



How can you suppose that?  The man speaks of his living brothers.  It's not final judgment if people are still alive.



Again, I disagree.  The question is simply, can a person go from Hell to Heaven.  If the answer is no, then that means no, regardless of whether the person is repentant, Elvis or given special (albeit late) dispensation from Jesus himself.

Saying forgiveness isn't relevant is like saying if I tell a parable about a house, the fact that it has walls and keeps the weather out isn't relevant.  The whole point of this discussion is transience, and if asking forgiveness through Jesus is a method of transience, it is wholly relevant.



Then why can't the rich man go to heaven?



Are you somehow suggesting nothing Jesus said is confusing????

Jesus is not a news reporter.  That is not his job!!  Jesus (and God's) job is to teach us what we need to do to get to heaven, that is all.  Everything else is trivialities, it's irrelevant.

You don't see any problem with God forcing a choice with an eternity of consequences that you might later regret having made?



Okay, but what about belief?   Before you can accept Jesus as your savior, you have to believe that he is God, and can actually be your savior.  What you believe is not a concious choice.  If you don't believe me, try it.  Try to actually convince yourself that everything you believe about God is false.  That none of it's actually true.  Since it's a concious choice, you can just switch back to believing a few seconds later.  Maybe you are capable of that kind of thing, but I'm simply not able to do so.  I can't believe in something just because I want it to be true.


Yes, you can choose to stop following God, because following or not following are actions.  I totally agree that we can all choose are actions.  I could totally choose to go to church, pray all day, where a crucifix and whatever else, but that isn't believing.  Just as you say, you could choose to stop following God, but you would think that foolish.  Because you'd still believe in him.  You can follow him or not, but you can't turn your belief that He exists on or off at will.



Convienient, isn't it?  Because the bible tells you everyone knows God in their hearts, you never have to consider the case of people who don't believe God, or have never heard of christianity.  As far as the bible is concerned, there are no atheist.  Everyone actually does believe in God, some people just pretend like they don't to be difficult.  And everyone knows God, even if they've never heard the word Jesus, never seen a bible, and never met a christian in their life.  They've got no excuse because they know in their heart about God.  If they don't accept Jesus, they're off to Hell too.



Okay, if hell is for the devil and the demons, why send humans there?  Why not make a less horrible place for humans that haven't done anything nearly as bad as the Devil?  Why punish humans the same amount as the devil?


Again...why force a choice that last an eternity?  If God is really doing everything He can keep people out of hell (and actually...since he can do anything, doesn't the fact that some people go to hell prove that He isn't doing everything he can to prevent it), why not give them a chance to change ther mind once they've seen hell?  Why tell people who have seen the error of their ways too late, "well, you had your chance?"


None of this really addresses the issue I brought up, though.  Why does God force you to choose between heaven and hell, for all eternity?  Why do the finite actions you take in this world result in infinite punishment or infinite reward?  Why are these the only two options available?

Think of it this way:  I can hold a gun to your head and say "believe that tycho is God!"  I can tell you, "it's your own choice.  I don't want to force you to believe in me.  You have to do it yourself.  I want you to believe in me.  It's just the devil and evil people that want you to get shot.  I want you to live!  Make your choice!"  And you might say, "But I don't actually think that you are God.  I can say it, but I won't really mean it.  I just can't convince myself that you're a God."  And I might say, "Ah, but in your heart you do know it.  That's no excuse.  I wrote it in my book right here.  You really do believe that I'm God, even if you say you don't."  I think if I did anything like that, you consider me a very horrible person.  You wouldn't call me good or just or loving.  And with good reason!  Doing that wouldn't be good, or just, or loving at all.  But that's pretty much exactly what you say God is doing.  Except that he's not just shooting you, he sentancing you to an eternity of stuff much worse than being shot.  And he doesn't even do you the service of standing in front of yout with a gun, so that you at least know he exists.  He does it through human beings.  And to complicate things, there are plenty of other human beings running around saying more or less the same thing about other gods at the same time.  It's very hard for me to accept, and even harder for me to approve of.

I'm so glad someone else thought the same thing I did when they read that! ;)

While this centres on love rather than faith it's some of the same thing. If you could choose what was in your heart, then faith would be a choice. You can possibly choose to refuse any outside influence, but I don't think you can choose to listen to the "voice of God" inside you. Seems to me it's touch and go whether you get saved or not. (Basically, did someone get to you at just the right stage in your life to convince you.)

Jesus apparently didn't get far enough into the story to tell us one way or the other about the rich man, so that point's not relevant to the story.

Tycho, FYI rogue and I have very different views about heaven and hell (as discussed some in the thread Hell in a Handbasket), but I won't butt into your conversation to add a third perspective.

LOL, I was just looking at the hell thread and discovered this that I had posted and totally forgot about:

If we're going with that version of things, then I would postulate Jesus didn't get far enough into the story to tell us he was just kidding :P

In truth though, I find it hard to swallow that God would allow the Bible to cut a story short so that the real message of the story is completely hidden from view.

I do agree with your last requote of yourself.  It's just a parable, a metaphor.  Clearly if the rich man went to a fiery hell, was trapped there forever, but his brothers are still alive, either the story is COMPLETELY literal - upon death we go straight to heaven or hell and stay there FOREVER - or COMPLETELY figurative - we can't read the story expecting to find factual information of the afterlife any more than we can read Genesis 1 about the factual creation of the universe, but there is a critical message for us to understand.

If you take it from the point of view that it's kind of factual, people do die and go straight to the fiery pits of hell, but also figurative, we run into so many problems explaining little details that we might as well ask if we can be certain about ANYTHING we read in the bible.

But that's the point.  The moral of the story is that your actions on earth are important and based on what you have been given on this earth.  It's not a story about repentance or forgiveness.  That's why I'm saying we shouldn't take it too far.

To that I agree.  Our status on earth has no bearing on our status afterwards, there is only one measure which is relevant.  The parable has nothing to say on the transcience of the soul or of our cognitive abilities after death, only how to win or lose our place with God.

God's doing everything He can short of taking away your freewill so that you'll choose the right answer. As it is, God knows best, and I understand that His plan does mean that some people will chose not to follow Him till later in life.

Billy Graham spoke of a really good analogy similar to this. If a doctor prescribed a medication that would cure your illness, and you don't take the medication, who's at fault for not being cured, the doctor, or you?

I used to choose to not believe God, and that the bible was false. I have since chosen to follow God. Realitically, here's what I say for those who are not certain about trusting in God, and following Him. Try God, and seriously pray for help in following Him, reading the bible, and going to church. If it doesn't work out, Satan will always take you back.

When I first was a Christian, I did not trust God fully. It required time, and prayer. A relationship is built over time. God will give His all, but unfortunately, many give God only a little. They are getting what they put in.



One of my favorite sayings is that God doesn't believe in atheists. It's a little funny, but realistically, it reminds people of another common phrase, that in a foxhole, there are no athiests. When you are down, and feeling out, you want to draw on God for strength. This is very common, as we are built and designed as creations of God, and have a spiritual side of us that is in conflict with our sinful physical body. Though we want to have that spiritual relationship, our physical side draws away to sin. Many people see this when they want to do the right thing, but are tempted to do bad. Many people have that sense, and have difficulty understanding that side if they are knowing god, or the role He plays.

God isn't sending these people to hell, the people are sending themselves to Hell. It's their choice.

Freewill, and letting them have their choice.

It's the people's choice, and I am not talking about awards here. :) but in seriousness, we deserve hell. We're really not all that good. We're sinners, and many enjoy their sins.

The other option is to accept, and live in the best environment forever. Where sins will no longer be an issue, and suffering will not occur.

Think of Jesus as a birthday gift. It's there in your living room, sitting on the table waiting to be opened. You can choose to accept the gift, and open it, or you can leave wrapped and not accept. Jesus is your gift any time you want to accept Him. He's trying to show you what that means. He will show you what that means, and all you need do is open and accept the gift.

Except that the doctor can change the physical laws of the universe unwrap contradictions and reform reality as we know it, and all he gives us is a lousy pill :P

An important question if you're going with the "God has to do it this way because God wants to allow free will" is simply, what is more powerful, God or abstract concepts?

In other words, do we accept that God cannot have His cake and eat it too?  Should we assume that free will is a hindrance to God that He cannot otherwise overcome, but rather must give us hell as retribution for misreading the metaphorical prescription bottle?

(in regards to why Hell is permanent):


So what if the person, after death, decides he really doesn't like hell any more and would like to come back to heaven, and is willing to do whatever is necessary to do that?  Or does free will end the moment the physical body dies?

Except that in this case, it's the doctor who gave you the illness in the first part.  You keep ignoring the critical point that God set things up so that this whole choice is necessary.


Well, if this is the case, I guess you have more control over your belief than me.  I simply can't believe things just because I want them to be true.  I can't turn my belief on and off at will.  It'd be great if I could, but I'm simply not capable.

As for the "just try it" advice, that's how cults work, so I think I'll pass.  I have been to church many, many times, and I've read the bible more than most christians, I'd guess.  I can't "seriously" pray to a being I don't actually believe exists, though.


One my favorite sayings is "anyone who tells you that has never been in a foxhole."  Kurt Vonnegut said that, and he survived the firebombing of Dresdon.  I think war-time situations like fox holes probably convert more people to atheism than the other way around.


That's like saying "don't move or I'll shoot!" and then trying to claim you didn't shoot people who moved, they shot themselves.  God created the choice.  He intentionally set up the situation where people have to make the decision.  And even if their choice, it is still God who does the sending.



So you're saying that by giving people a chance to change their minds, you would take away their free will?


An eternity of torture?  We deserve this?  We're sinners, and not all that good, but I wouldn't wish an eternity of torture on the worst person ever.  Torture for short periods of time is revolting, and completely unjustified.  Torture for eternity even more so.  Infinitely more so!  We consider places that cut off your hand for stealing to be cruel and draconian.  This is far, far worse.  Infinitely worse!


Except that it's an invisible birthday gift that you can't actually see, feel, smell, taste, or hear.  And if you don't believe it's there, you get tortured for eternity.

God doesn't want us to go to Hell. I think your question is a logic issue more than anything. It's similar to saying God cannot create a rock so big, that He can't lift it.

God gave us freewill. It's our choice to make. God's choice is that we should be with Him in heaven. If you choose not to do that, it's not His choice, but yours.


Here's what I found in scripture.
Matthew 25:46
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I'm not sure how to say anything else but that eternal means forever.

Adam and Eve chose to sin. You have chosen to sin, and I have chosen to sin. I have since then decided that I no longer want to sin. We deserve our unishment. However, God will pay that price for you. God loves us so much, He made it so easy for us. He had Jesus pay our price for our sins in full. God did everything he could, and now it's our choice to accept, and choose what God knows is best for us, even if we don't know it is best for us.

I'm sure I would have said the same thing. However, I don't think it a coincidence you're chatting with people about God.

You can seriously pray. It's what many people have done when they hit their low point. You obviously haven't hit that point for a really radical about face. I'm still praying for you. I know that there is always hope.

People are going to die. Our bodies will only last for a number of decades, hopefully. Some may be called home sooner. Billy Graham has made an interesting point. So Do you believe in right and wrong? Is it wrong to abuse children? Should we expect God to judge them? I would think God should punish those people who chose to sin. Hitler should be judged for his sins.

Ultimately though, we now have a choice, and that choice has been made very easy for us, in that Jesus paid our price of our sins completely in full, so that our sins are fully forgiven. We don't need to earn our way out of our sins, as nothing is enough to earn a way into heaven. Jesus' sacrifice would have been in vain, if we could earn our way.


God gave several chances already. God gave us laws that would show us right and wrong. Then God gave us Jesus so that our sins were paid for in full. So I think you're actually saying that you want yet another chance, right?

Ok. That answer may be a bit biased considering that you would rather not accept Jesus, and do it on your own. However, God knows what He's doing, as He's perfect.

I might have said that at one time too. I realize now it could have been for a variety of reasons, one of those reasons would have been because I didn't want to know Him.